Worth Repeating: The Enneagram and Your Marriage

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

So everyone knows that opposites attract, and most married people know that opposites then also tend to drive each other crazy. And that's one of the reasons I love Your Enneagram Coach so much.

The enneagram is a great tool to help us understand ourself and each other well. And in context of a marriage, it can help us to understand each other, to get along, to respect each other's differences. And today we're re-airing this episode with Beth and Jeff McCord of Your Enneagram Coach.

This gives a great overview of what the enneagram is and why it has become popular, how it can help in marriage and how it can help us to become more of who God created us to be. So tune in to this episode that we think is worth repeating.

Dr. Kim: Beth and Jeff, let's kick things off by just introducing yourselves; who you are, how you met, how long you've been married, kids, all that good stuff.

Beth: Great, so we're Beth and Jeff McCord, and we have been married for 24 years. We have two kids that are now adults. They're 21 and 19, both in college which is a totally different parenting season for us. And we are now working with Your Enneagram Coach.

It's the Enneagram business that we've developed in order to help others to understand themselves with astonishing clarity. So they can break free from self-condemnation, fear, and shame. By knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness and freedom in Christ. And that's our real sole purpose, and our goal, and our delight to be able to do it.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, that's one thing, as we talked before that I love. As I listened through the book the first time and just the Christ-centered approach and that God has answers. So when people are going through their Enneagram or feel like it's stuck with their spouse, whatever your numbers are, that God always got an answer for you. And I love that part of it, and I think it puts a whole new look at the Enneagram.

I started to say, spin, we're not spinning God's stuff, okay. It's a whole new way of looking at that, I think, in a way that brings incredible healing and growth individually in a marriage relationship. So I'm excited about it, very much so. So let's get it down to your guys' marriage, what are some practical ways that the Enneagram has helped you guys? What types are you and how has it helped?

Jeff: So I'm Type Six, and I think, what many people's experience with the Enneagram is that, I thought I was a different number for probably three, four years. Before Beth and I went to a marriage intensive together. And the counselor said, "No, you're a Six." And I was so frustrated with him, I didn't touch the Enneagram for a year.

But Beth has always known that she was a Nine. So even when we found out about the Enneagram around 2000, so we had been married around six years. We had two little kids and just experiencing the busyness, the strain, and now we've got some unhealthy and healthy patterns that are starting to show themselves around year six of our marriage.

And some friends introduced us to the Enneagram and so Beth discovered she was a Nine and it began to answer a lot of fundamental questions for how she related to our kids, how she related to me.

And, so, we essentially, just privately, started using the Enneagram, studying the Enneagram, she devoured it, I was later to adopt it. But as we started to see it gave us new language, it gave us new understanding, it gave us greater compassion and empathy for one another. And we actually started to connect in ways that we were finding it difficult to do during that season of marriage.

So, out of the overflow of that we, actually, started sitting down and talking with couples about it. And it was very simple, find your type and how does the gospel apply, and change your perspective. These fundamental questions of your type, who is responsible for meeting those needs? Is it your spouse, your kids, your job, or is it Jesus? And whenever our heart is at rest with the truth of the gospel, all kinds of fruit comes from that.

Dr. Kim: That's awesome. Would you add anything, Beth?

Beth: Yeah, I mean, for me, as a type Nine, and I know that over time we will get into all the nine types together. But as a Nine, just get people a little heads up, is that it's like we're walking in an internal fog. And, so, there's a lot of frustration, on Jeff's part, when we were early married, of wanting to know me better, wanting to know my emotions or why I do what I do.

Well, I don't know. I'm just going along to get along and I didn't necessarily have any answers. So the Enneagram was really helpful because it brought the clarity I needed in order to better communicate. Wasn't perfect, it takes, what, decades and decades to get better at this thing called marriage.

But it gave me the clarity and the understanding to communicate with Jeff on a much better level, a clearer level, and also to give him insights on how to communicate with me, how to have better conflict with me. And, so, we just really started to see the whole marriage dynamic starting to change that early on.

Which was huge because we felt like we were falling into our common, let's say pitfalls, and the pitfalls at times felt like quicksand. And the more we had tried to get out on our own we just couldn't, it was getting worse and worse. Whereas the Enneagram gave us that more foundation to stand on and go, "Okay, we're struggling, but here's why and here's a better path to move forward."

Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm. That's so good.

Jeff: You know, interesting, even this week Beth and I kind of got spun out again. And it's the same pattern that we've had since we first found out about the Enneagram. But we talk about in terms of dancing, so early on it felt like we were playing the game Twister. But now we're learning to actually dance with one another with less harm.

Dr. Kim: That's awesome.

Jeff: But we're still dancing, we're still dancing, and having these same conversations.

Beth: And actually that's what's really encouraging, though, at the very beginning it's very discouraging. Meaning when you look at the Enneagram and it kind of exposes why you do what you do. At first, it can feel like really shameful, or condemning, or you feel guilt.

But that's actually the opposite of how we want to use the Enneagram because Christ is already taken care of all of that, and He has redeemed us. And, so, now when those things still happen, instead of flogging ourselves with shame, self-condemnation, we can go, "Praise be to God, that this too, again, has been taken care of." And I can use it and we talk about it being a rumble strip on the highway.

I can use this incident like a rumble strip to wake us up, to not fall into that common pitfall again. Because if we continue to do those same patterns, like we always have. If we continue to do that in this moment, we know where we're going to head, where we're going to end up.

And, so, it is a warning sign to let us wake up, come back to Christ, ask Him to help steer us back onto the path towards Him and being more like Him. And, so, that's what the Enneagram can be so powerful if we use it from a gospel-centered perspective. Not a place of shame and guilt, and harm, but a place of redemption.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. One of the things you guys sharing that for people to know, you guys didn't figure this out and now you have this perfect marriage?

Beth: Yes.

Jeff: No.

Dr. Kim: That is ongoing.

Beth: We're still on this side of heaven.

Dr. Kim: But the Enneagram gives you a way to navigate marriage and understand each other in the way that you didn't, and to put Christ where He wants to be, I think, in your marriage, which is what I love.

I think, as Nancy and I learned about, I wish we had. I mean, the Enneagram was around, I guess, at our marriage, but we didn't know about it. And, so, I think God's led us into some healing that it would've been so much easier if we'd had the Enneagram.

I mean, Nancy is a Six and I'm a Two, and she came out of an alcoholic background, and a lot of insecurity. She needed me to make her feel secure, she wanted that, help her with anxiety and things like that. Me being a Two, I didn't want to be rejected, I wanted to feel appreciated, I wanted all those kind of things. And, so, we had that unhealthy dance.

What she needed and I wouldn't get it from her and that was making her feel more insecure the way I did things and it was like, man! It was the oldest kind, you described it, but it's the old insanity thing, we kept doing the same thing over and over thinking it was going to change. "Well, she's finally going to get it and she's going to finally appreciate me. And when she does, I'll be a really good husband."

So until we finally realized, and I think that's where God showed us that, "Man, I got to meet those needs. I always love you. I always appreciate you. I'm never going to reject you." And then it allowed us to begin to understand each other and meet the needs God wanted us to meet as a husband and wife, and that was a huge change for us.

Enneagram would've made it so much easier to understand that if we would've had that early in marriage and thought, and we could just see us at that stage light bulbs going off, "Oh, my gosh, now I get that."

Beth: Yeah, and it's really the Enneagram accelerates growth and transformation when you use it correctly, and using it correctly is a very important point. You don't want to use the Enneagram as a sword or a shield. I mean, you don't want to one, wield a sword, one at yourself. Like bringing self-condemnation, flogging yourself, all those things that we do to create harm. Christ has already taken care of everything.

So, the other thing is we don't want to use it as a sword towards others, and belittling people, sarcasm, or just being outright mean. Because the Enneagram is the most exposed or exposing that you'll ever be, and, so, we want to realize that and hold this very gently with people.

But we also don't want to use it as a shield where we're like, "Well, that's just my personality, that's the way it goes, sorry." That's actually the opposite of what the Enneagram is about and it is the opposite of what Christ is asking us.

He's asking us to surrender and depend so that we can be more like Him. And, so, it's really the opposite of, "Jesus, I want to be more like you and I'm struggling. Will you reveal to me what's going on and let me come back to You. Trusting that You have transformed me through the work of Your life, death, and resurrection, and You're still transforming me." So it's already done, but a continuing process.

Dr. Kim: And I think it gives, because I've heard so many times over the years, people say in counseling, "Well, it's just who I am and accept me the way I am." And hopefully those people who are listening to this and as they go through it, they will see there's hope there.

That just the way you are, probably, isn't working in a lot of ways in your life, or your relationships, or your family, and that God does have a way out of that. And maybe they can get past that fear or whatever it is, that there is hope that God can redeem this and bring good out of this, and help me be who He created me to be.

Beth: Absolutely.

Jeff: Yes.

Dr. Kim: Because we all get stuck. So what if you never had found the Enneagram, what would your life be like now? What would your marriage be like? Can you even get a picture of that?

Beth: Oh yes.

Jeff: I know the good news is this, is that God's word is true. And, so, the Enneagram is a tool like the Five Love Languages, like Strength Finders, like Myers-Briggs, these are helpful insights. And, so, God has given His people, His word, His spirit.

So we know we can take great assurance in that God cares about our marriages, maybe even more than we do. He cares about our spouses more than we do. And the Enneagram is just a helpful tool that gives us vocabulary in an organized way of understanding one another's personalities.

But I can't say, I remember going through other personality type assessments and we never saw it immediately direct or impact our marriage the way that the Enneagram had.

Dr. Kim: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: Even like with Strength Finders, which is a fantastic tool, it simply didn't translate to the understanding how to affirm Beth, how to understand how she operates. Even, the same would be true of Myers-Briggs. So, we would've still had the gospel and the gospel is enough. But, man, the Enneagram has been so helpful, of just having a vocabulary to describe what's happening between us.

Beth: It really accelerated the growth path that God already had us on. We already wanted to grow as a couple, way back in the day when we were struggling, we just couldn't figure out what was going on. And the reason is the Enneagram was going to show you that there are nine basic personality types and that means there's nine basic views of the world or how we see things, how we interpret life.

And the reason why that's so important is that we all think we see the world the same way. So we get so upset with our spouse like, "Why did you think that way? Or why did you do it that way?" Because it seems ludicrous to us because my way is the way.

So by realizing, "Oh wait," you see it from a completely different vantage point. I'm wearing purple glasses, you're wearing orange glasses, we don't see it at all the same. It helps us to take off our lenses and say, "Can I see through your lens? Can you explain this better for me to understand?" And then it develops empathy and compassion, understanding, mercy, grace, and hopefully forgiveness so that we can have restoration.

So I think without the Enneagram illuminating or basically being a flashlight to all these things. To show us WHY, that's the biggest thing with the Enneagram; why we are thinking, feeling; even the ways we do it. We would have to have figured it out on our own and it would've just taken a much longer time, and probably a lot more, let's call it injuries, along the way. And, so, I think the Enneagram does that accelerating process for us as we transform and grow together.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think to be persistent and continue without it, to try to figure it out, I don't know very many couples that would have the endurance to do that. You just get to a point where you think, "Oh, we're hitting the same wall again, we're hitting another wall, and just going to just give up. And I agree, I've used a number of the different assessments and some things like that.

To me, the Enneagram, why I love it, it's so relational. It changes the way we look at ourselves, and we look at others. It's kind of like relationships on steroids or hyper-relation. I mean, it just does something in a way, in relationships, that I've never seen any other assessment that I've used with couples do.

And it gives people information that nothing else does, I think, an insight into themselves, and the empathy that you talked about, Jeff. I mean, my empathy for Nancy, when I kept thinking early in marriage of, "She's going to change. Eventually, she's going to figure this out and she is going to see the world like I do."

When I finally realized, "No, she sees the world different than I did." The empathy I had for her was just almost overwhelming at that point. Because I realized I've been trying to put her in a box that she was never going to fit in.

Jeff: Sure, that's right.

Beth: So good.

Jeff: Being a Six, I was also adopted and my family, my mom had some health issues that put her in the hospital repeatedly. So I experienced this ongoing sense of not having guidance and security. And what the Enneagram helped to pinpoint for me is that not only did I experience that after my birth, but I also experienced it dispositionally in my personality.

So it would be really unfair to put all of that need onto Beth and think that she's going to be able to heal. Or repair both my childhood experience and my personality's unhealthy pattern, and, so, it helped us to gain clarity then.

So whenever I do have these moments of anxiety and it showing up in its various ways, I know she's not the solution. She knows that she's not the solution. And so then we're more together with one another versus trying to fight it out and demand that each other come through. And that's not something that I've experienced with other personality tools.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, that's so good. And she couldn't be your savior.

Jeff: No, she couldn't.

Dr. Kim: And even if she wanted to be and tried to be, she couldn't.

Beth: And I tried. As a type Nine, we just want make everyone happy. And man, have I tried to make everyone happy and it doesn't work. And because it's not my role, my ultimate calling is not to satisfy Jeff. It is to come alongside him, to be his helpmate, to support one another in this journey of life, and, so, that was really freeing too. As much as I would love to see Jeff freed from all of the constraints he experiences on a daily basis, ultimately I can't fix it.

But I can pray and ask God to help. I can come alongside him and support him, and have empathy, and now encourage him in ways that resonates with him. And, so, that's the other thing that's really great about the Enneagram is it allows us to start speaking to each other in one another's dialect versus our own.

Because I know that I try to give love the way I would want to be loved. I try to help the way I want to be helped. And it just doesn't always land on Jeff or others the way I anticipate it. Whereas now it's like, "Oh, wait, I'm a Nine and I do things this way and he's a Six, and here's a different way of communicating to him, understanding him.

Now, of course, we're definitely not perfect at it every day we're talking about this. We're stumbling over each other, but now we have the words to talk about it. We have the vocabulary, the insights to go, "You know what, this is really what was going on in my heart. What would've been helpful? Would've been this from my perspective." "Oh, okay, I didn't, I was coming at it from this angle. I was trying to get it to land on you in that way, but obviously it didn't work."

And, so, those kinds of conversations and having clarity is so important to say, "I am, here to support you, I am wanting you to feel encouraged. I just might not always be doing it the way that lands on you best, but I'm trying."

Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely. So good. One of the concept that you used ended up becoming us is “assumicide,” such an important concept, explain that.

Jeff: Yeah, I first heard about it, I was trained with Peacemaker Ministries to do mediations for churches and marriages, probably, over a decade ago. And that's when I was first introduced to it and it just immediately stuck because it's so descriptive of what happens when we, as spouses, assume wrongly that we understand one another's thoughts, motives, and feelings.

And we actually react and choose certain behaviors or words based upon those assumptions, and it actually ends up causing more harm than it is actually helpful.

We tell a funny little story about Stephanie and Dustin, who their wedding was coming up. And, so, they were running some errands on a Saturday and they're in the truck, and she just simply confesses to Dustin that she really wanted a wedding band. And she's a type Nine, so it was really hard for her to even suggest it.

And then Dustin is a type Eight and he just thought it was crazy. He thought, "This is ridiculous, why would we spend money on that?" And so she comes back around and says, "You know, there are a lot of things I don't care about, but this one thing I really would care about." And Dustin is like, "You're being ridiculous." He was kind of mean about it, but he did not understand what was actually happening until she finally said, "This is going to be something that's going to stay with me for the rest of my life."

And Dustin says, "What are you talking about? This is something that's only going to last for one night." And Stephanie says that "I'm talking about a wedding band for my finger. I'm not talking about a wedding band to play at our reception."

But, I mean, it's kind of silly, but as a couple there are so many different things. I mean, think of the opportunities we have to wrongly assume what's happening. When we're parenting one of our children, or trying to make tough financial decisions, or career decisions, or we have relationships that are confusing.

And we, as spouses, just totally miss each other in the fog, in the craziest and complexity of life, and assumicide just captures it. Like if we could wake up to understanding one another and understanding ourselves, man, there would be so much less harm in our marriage.

Dr. Kim: I think that's a great example. I think because it's, sometimes, the smaller things like that, that throw us off and I would just think, so he goes off and, so, she doesn't tell him that, "I'm talking about something on my finger."

They're just kind of frustrated and take off and he's talking to his buddies and saying, "She wants a band for the wedding, that's the stupid thing." And she's telling her friends, "He won't give me a wedding band. He thinks, and then he said, it's just going to last one night. And, so, you can just see how it could spiral out of control or something like that.

Jeff: Yeah, you're talking as if you've heard about this before. It's so common.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and even Nancy and I have been married forever and we still have something like that. Just because something will come up that we may not have talked about in a long time and we just look at it different, and now we're able to laugh at it. While early in marriage it was like we didn't laugh at it caused conflict. And now we've learned to choose our battles a lot better and take time kind of laugh at things.

But most of the things that couples come into, so much of it is communication. So much of it's understanding each other and not assuming things. And it's amazing how many fights start, how many times couples will come in and tell me about this horrible fight they had the week before. And what the other one did and who threw what, and I'll say, "What started it?' And they'll go, "Well, I don't remember, but he did this and she did that."

Beth: Exactly.

Dr. Kim: So the band can go anywhere.

Beth: Yeah, and, so what we encourage like in our book Becoming Us is we encourage couples to ask clarifying questions and give clarifying statements.

Dr. Kim: Mm-Hmm.

Beth: So now that we know that we're wearing different lenses, we can say, "Hey, I just want to clarify that what I meant by that was actually this." Or, "Hey, you said this I would interpret it this way through my lens, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant. Could you clarify that for me before I commit assumicide and get really upset?"

Because we just want to assume the best first, before assuming that they meant it for harm. And sometimes we feel like it's, "Oh, no, they meant it for harm." But that may not have been the case at all. And so we just really want people to pause and take the time to backtrack and to just ask good clarifying questions or give clarifying statements ahead of time.

Dr. Kim: Oh, I think that makes such a difference if we take time to do that.

Beth: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kim: How many times we assume always the negative? Probably a lot more than the positive it's just our-

Jeff: Oh, absolutely sure. That's a great insight that our bent is towards a negative assumption about what people's motives are. I don't know if I've ever thought, like, "I think Beth really wanted to affirm me." I don't know about anyone who thought that.

Dr. Kim: It felt like she stabbed me, but I know she wanted to affirm me.

Beth: And even that totally gets me in my dance right now, because as a Nine, I'm just trying to encourage, to make people happy. And I'm like, "That's what I'm always trying to do. How can you assume the negative?"

But Jeff being a type Six, usually is suspicious of people. And, so, he gets suspicious like, "Well, what did she mean by that?" And I'm like, "I only meant good." So even that statement feels frustrating to me because of how I see the world versus how he sees the world.

But now I can go, "Okay though, that's frustrating because I know my heart's intent a lot of times is for the good." I understand why that can land on him wrong, and all the more I need to be clear and clarify my intentions when I'm making statements.

So that he has more of a runway of, "Oh, okay, she's actually meaning good here." Instead of jumping into suspicion right away. And that's hard for me because I know what my heart's intention is, but he doesn't, and so it's really important for that clarity to come out in the front.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely. For our people that follow us in marriage and have heard me talk so much about being a student of your spouse, which I preach forever. This is probably the best when, and people say, "Well, how do I do that?" This is a great way to do that, this kind of makes sense.

Beth: This is like a Cliff Notes.

Jeff: It's great.

Dr. Kim: Exactly, it puts you way ahead, exactly.

Jeff: That's good. I think that's why the Enneagram is so attractive to people because it is so accessible and practical. It gives you an organized way of understanding, it gives you a new language to understand your spouse. And I think that's why it's so attractive to many couples, and why they're experiencing so much healing from it.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, and I think for people to know, I think something new, they think, "Oh, what the name Enneagram, that sounds like something I'd never understand." It's very, very simple and it's not rocket science.

Now, you learn more about it like you and Beth are saying, is you continue to learn more about each other. When Nancy took hers the first time and she was so skeptical, Six. And, so, I give her the printout and then she's read what the printout you get from you guys. That the first time she read it, she goes, "Wow, that's me." And it was just like, "How do they do that?" And when you think about it, really, how all the billions of people in the world fit in nine categories?

Beth: Yeah.

Jeff: Sure.

Beth: And that's what's so great about the Enneagram, though, is I know that it sounds like, "Wait, nine? That's it?" But once you get into the Enneagram and you start going a little further, all of a sudden you realize how complex this is done.

So each of the nine types, think of them as a paint color, and you go into Sherwin-Williams and you want a blue color for your room. Well, there's a thousand blues that you could pick from. And, so, though there are nine basic types, there are a wide variety of the same type.

Now they're core motivations and that's where the personality hinges on because the Enneagram is all about why you do what you do? Which is based off your core motivations, that's what propels you, drives you forward in life, that's how you see the world.

Those remain true for all nine types, that's the core. The variations are vast and numerous and, so, that's what makes it so beautiful. You know what's great about the Enneagram is that it shows you what you're going to be like when you're healthy, average, or unhealthy. And we talk about that being aligned with the truth of the gospel, misaligned, or out of alignment with the gospel.

So, even two types that are the exact same personality type, can look radically different depending on their levels of health. And, so, just to let people know that it's much more complex than just nine types. But when you're just trying to look at it from a simple perspective and just getting into it. All you got to do is start right there and actually just utilizing it from just the nine types, is really all you need to transform your marriage from struggling to thriving.

Dr. Kim: I agree. And I love that and I think Nancy and I, the more we get into it, certainly, we're seeing more the complexity, but it's how it plays out with each one of us which is cool.

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[00:31:08] <Music>

Dr. Kim: So we talked some about the gospel intersection with the Enneagram, talk a little bit more about that.

Jeff: Biblically, there's just two things happening, well, there's a lot of things happening in the Scriptures, but one is we don't know ourselves. So we have like Psalm 139 that David is asking the Lord, "To search him and know him, and to lead him because he is not aware of himself." Paul echoes that in First Corinthians where he says that, "Who knows the heart of man."

But it's the heart that is at the core of what Christianity is, "Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And, so, at the place of these core motivations is where the Lord intends to meet us with the truth of the gospel.

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.

Jeff: And when we seek out patterns of relating to the world, relating to our calling, relating to our family, relating to our children. When our hearts are relating out of a way of independence from God, which we call that the flesh, the old man, we reap the benefits of the fruits of the flesh.

But when our hearts are aligned with the truth of the gospel, we see the fruit of the Spirit; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. And, so, what the Enneagram is doing is that it's a tool that focuses on core motivations of the heart. And, so, now let's talk about how, when the most repeated command in Scripture is, "Do not fear for I am with you." And, so, let's talk about how each type experiences fear, and how the gospel applies to their experience of fear or perfectionism.

It's common for people to think that type Ones are the only perfectionist, but actually, all of the types experience perfectionism. And, so, by bringing the gospel to bear upon the Enneagram, we can ask each type, "Why are you perfectionistic? What need are you seeking to satisfy? And how has the gospel addressed that fear in your life?"

And, so, if you just take the core motivations and start looking at the promises that we have in Christ that are YES, and AMEN, you start to realize like, "Wow, God has met us very immediately according to our type, with all of these true and precious promises."

Beth: Yeah, and the one thing I would say that we've really focused in on with each of the types is within the four core motivations. There's the core fear, the thing that you're always running away from or trying to prevent.

The core desire is, "If I just obtain this life will be perfect." The core weakness, which is really the thorn in your side, your Achilles heel, other teachers call it “the passion” or “the deadly sin.” And this is where God shows us that He is our power and our strength in our weakness.

But then the last is our core longing. And the core longing is the message that your heart has always longed to hear from a little child from your parents, teachers, et cetera, all the way into your marriage, parenting and career. And we're demanding that others give us this message because it's what our heart longs for.

But like in Jeremiah 2:13, it talks that, "God is the spring of living water." But we have dug cisterns or vases or wells that we have to put water in, but these cisterns or wells are broken and they don't hold water. And, so, anything apart from Christ is a cistern. Now, that doesn't mean everyone else is bad or wrong.

But Jeff being a husband of 24 years who loves me, we're best friends, he is still a broken cistern. He cannot give me my core longing to the depths that I absolutely need, and I'm craving.

Now, he can give me a little thimble size of water, and you kind of pour, and then there, it's like, "Oh, great, thanks." But, ultimately, it is the spring of living water that I need. And, so, when we turn to Christ, it's like, "Oh, you have satisfied my core longing."

And, so, the core longings are such an important message for each of us to kind of hone in on and then seeing how Christ has satisfied that. All of a sudden, you're now drinking from the spring, which is always refreshing and renewing, satisfying filling you up. So then when Jeff does have the little thimble of water that he goes, "Hey, your presence matters, you're important to me." It's like, "That's amazing, I'm already filled up and now I get a little extra."

So, no longer am I so parched and demanding it from him, I can release him from that role in my life, get it from Christ, and then turn back to Jeff in a whole new light. Where I'm refreshed, I'm overflowing with God's grace and goodness, and love and so that's what we're really hoping for people to see is how Christ transforms us. Not the Enneagram, not our spouse, not our careers, but Christ.

Dr. Kim: That's just so good, I mean, that's so good. I wish it could be condensed in a slogan for a t-shirt. Because, I mean, that's really a definition of marriage what you just said, Beth. I mean, I think that's really what God wants for us in marriage, to let Him do that and then our spouse becomes an added blessing. And, so, in that context, Jeff's thimbleful really is nice.

Beth: Yeah.

Jeff: Yes.

Dr. Kim: And he's not that stream, he can't be the stream, when Christ is the stream in our lives, that's really nice to get that thimbleful from him.

Beth: Mm-Hmm. And then you have that grace and that compassion of like, "Hey, thanks so much for giving me that thimbleful."

Dr. Kim: That's great.

Beth: And that's the whole point I think, of the Enneagram too, is for us to have this sweet, joyful laughter with one another. Like, I can't come through for Jeff, like as much as I've tried, I can't. But if he begins to see that and frees me from that expectation, what more joy that we will have in our marriage.

We can come together with laughter and silliness, and like, "Yep, I'm trying again, I'm trying to be all that you need and it's not working. Let me just let Christ work with you on that one." And, so, that lightheartedness is not taking responsibility, it's actually the opposite. It's like, "No, I'm taking responsibility by going to Christ myself and having Him work in and through me versus me trying to be all things to you which never works."

Dr. Kim: No, so good. Let's switch just a minute and talk about what's the Enneagram and our marriage? What should people not do? What are some pitfalls that they can get into with the Enneagram?

Jeff: Beth, you want to start?

Beth: Yeah, I mean, I think that goes back to the sword and the shield, that's such a major thing, major red flag. We hear about it a lot. I don't experience it a lot because of the people that I'm around. I probably talked about it so much on how not to do it like this, and plus I'm a Nine with an Eight Wing.

Which for those out there that understand that I want everyone to feel that their presence matters. And if others are belittling, harming, bullying, being inconsiderate, disrespectful that Eight and Nine are going to collide and I'm going to be an advocate.

So that's where I get very strong with this message is please recognize that God has created each of us uniquely and uniquely different for reasons and purposes. So we are the body of Christ. We have nine different types, just like there's a foot, and a hand, and a brain, and a heart, et cetera.

We all don't need to see the world from the same viewpoint. In fact, we shouldn't, it wouldn't work. And, so, to have the grace, the compassion that the freedom for each person to experience God. To grow in the uniqueness that He's called them to and then to join them, to come alongside one another and have that lightheartedness, and grace, and compassion that you never thought was possible.

But also to recognize it's not your job to fix others, nor is it your job to fix yourself, this is God's work. And it's where the mess that we're constantly trying to bring to each of the people we're working with, is that what Christ is asking of you is to surrender and to depend on His life, death, and resurrection, the finished work of Christ on your behalf.

So that you can know who you are, your personality style, how you're hardwired, how He's designed you, but more importantly, whose you are, which is your identity in Christ.

Jeff: And I'll say on a little bit of a more practical level a few things that we've observed. Number one, because the Enneagram is so helpful, oftentimes they will trust the insights of the Enneagram more than the Scriptures themselves, and that's not the place that the Enneagram should be in. And then I think secondly that we often see for because a spouse will go and find their Enneagram type and find it so insightful for themselves.

Then they'll want to go and type their spouse, their kids, their friends, and sometimes their spouses can be reluctant. And if there's been a pattern of always trying to fix your spouse, or even with the Enneagram trying to type your spouse. Oftentimes that can be done with harm. It's an opportunity to remind them of how they're not measuring up, they're not healthy.

Dr. Kim: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: Rather than doing these things from a place of kindness. And, so, we just recommend patience with your spouse who's reluctant. Allow the truth of the gospel to impact your life for you personally and let your life be attractive, that, "Why wouldn't I want to learn about my type if my spouse has experienced so much change."

Dr. Kim: That's so good. One of the things we talk about a lot, it's amazing how it fits in and that's embracing your differences. And I tell couples, yeah, that God made each of us different for a purpose. And couples, I think healthy couples are the ones that learn to do that. And then the Enneagram gives us a way to flesh that out in some really good ways. But I got couples too, if you guys think you'd like to be if you are just exactly alike you would be so bored.

Jeff: Mm-hmm, that's true.

Dr. Kim: God put us together to grow and to be different. And as much as sometimes I wished Nancy was different in some areas, after years of marriage, I see God's wisdom in the fact that she wasn't. And what that's done, for me, and how He's helped me grow because of that, and I think she would say the same.

Beth: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Kim: We know that it's God's intention to use our spouse to further God's purposes in our lives. He helps us use our spouse to help grow us and things like that. Becoming Us, you talk about three fundamental elements of showing grace to your spouse in the middle of a conflict. Talk about that for just a minute.

Beth: Yeah, so the three elements are, first trust the process. Second, you want to be open to your blind spots, not just yourself, but also your marriage's blind spots. And then the third is to grow in your responsibility in Christ. And, so, I'll take the first one is trust the process. I remember early on when I was studying the Enneagram I was probably 26 or 27, so this was back in the very early 2000s.

I think what Jeff had said is that each of us gets frustrated with our spouse. Like, "Why aren't they doing it the way they should be doing it?" Which is our way of seeing the world and like, "Doesn't he know it should be like this, or he should talk to me this way. Why is he talking to me that way, is he intending to hurt me? Or why can't he grow in this area or that area?"

And, so, that discontentment that not being satisfied, always thinking that it should be a different way. He's not up to where I think he should be, or I'm not up to where I think I should be. And, so, what I would suggest is praying for your spouse, well, praying for you, but praying for your spouse and trusting the process.

That at the time I remember it was actually, I was on a treadmill, and I was praying for us as a couple. And I felt like the Holy Spirit said, "Beth, if I wanted Jeff to be where you want him to be, I would have him there right now. I can transform him in an instant. But I have a reason and I have a plan, and I have a path. Though it may not be on your timing, it may not be your desire, but I need you to trust me. And to keep focused on me, allow me to transform you and you support, love, care, pray for Jeff, knowing that I am taking good care of him."

And though that doesn't mean I didn't stop, I keep trying to change Jeff and we all keep trying to change people. But it gave me the mindset of it's not my responsibility to change him, that is God's. And I can come alongside, and love, and support him knowing that God's transforming him in His timing, not necessarily my timing, but His timing.

And now that I can look back, that was probably 15, 16 years ago, and I can look back and go, "Wow, you really have done such amazing work in Jeff's life." And I wouldn't have been able to see that then, but now I can go, "Praise be to God, thank you so much for the work you've done in and through him. Through all the ups and the downs that we've experienced in life to become more like Christ." But the same goes true for myself, if God wanted me to be where I couldn't be right now, He would make me there right now.

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.

Beth: He has a process and a plan, and to be patient, and to keep coming to Him is so important. So I would say the first is to trust the process and then just knowing the blind spots. Gosh, you bring two couple types together, we have a marriage course Becoming Us. And we've created 45 marriage courses for all 45 couple types.

Every couple type has amazing attributes that when they come together, they have like these superpowers that are just beautiful. But we also have these huge blind spots. So not only does our personality have blind spots, our couple type has blind spots and to be open to that.

To be okay that God will reveal, He will heal, He will restore those things as it comes. Because Christ has already taken care of everything. His finished work on the cross will redeem, restore, and renew us and, so, just to be open to that. We don't have to have all the shame and condemnation go, "Oh, yep, there is that blind spot again." Or "Oh, yep, we're struggling again. I'm sorry, let's come back together, let's restore and repair is so important."

Dr. Kim: That's so good.

Jeff: Yeah, so these three principles actually came from Galatians chapter six. And the way that Paul describes it, the first thing he says that, "When a person is caught in sin you who are spiritual should restore them." And it speaks, the first one, about trust the process. Your spouse is in a particular position in your life that very few people will ever be in.

They are the closest person to you. And it's God's ordinary means to use people in our life to bring about the change that He desires.

So the gift, in this particular text, is the reality that someone saw me would want to catch me, which is a gift. I mean, that is God's invitation to bring you back into relationship with Him, to protect you from harming yourself.

The second thing about blind spots is the idea that the person is caught and transgression. There's a sense to where they didn't recognize what they were doing. In the way that David described sin, it says, "My sin surrounds me and I cannot see."

Sin blinds, it confuses. And when our Enneagram types are more unhealthy or misaligned with the gospel patterns, we often don't see, as a Six, I don't see how anxious I am. I don't see how suspicious I am. I don't see how presumptuous I can be about judging people's motives and behaviors.

And then the third one about growing in ownership and responsibility, is that there's this interesting dynamic in that little text because Paul says, "We're supposed to go and restore our fallen brother and sister in Christ in order to share one another's burdens."

But then he says later in the same paragraph, "But each one is responsible for their own load." So there's this idea of personal responsibility and mutual responsibility, fulfilling the love of Christ. But I know I have said this a lot and I don't know why we think it's a good and useful tool, but we use it a lot.

But oftentimes, when Beth comes to me and says, "Hey, what you said to me was really hurtful." I'll come back and say, "Well, if you hadn't done this I wouldn't have done it." And so I've shifted responsibility from myself back on to Beth for being hurt. If you wouldn't have been hurt by it, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, so, meaning taking responsibility and owning that the Enneagram insights you're not doing it right, if it's not hard.

It should be difficult, because these are patterns of relating to people that you have committed yourself to, from very early on in your life. This is what's worked for you. This is how you survived. This is how you responded when you face tragedy and trauma and, so, these are well-worn paths. But your spouse is God's gift to you to be able to wake up to a new world, where God's love is true, and your spouse is there to support you.

Dr. Kim: Wow, that's so good. You guys, I appreciate so much your openness, your honesty, your transparency. To share what God's done in your life now with the world, and knowing that so many marriages are going to be transformed and drawn closer to Christ. That's what I love about it, it's not only understanding ourselves, but it's going to draw us closer to Him and allow Him to do what He wants to do in our lives.

Because I've gotten in His way a lot of time in my life and in my marriage. And I felt like you were just saying, "He does a lot better job with Nancy than I do, and get out of His way and let Him work in her and let Him work in me." And, so, I think if we've learned that, that's made a huge difference to and, I think, this gives us a template to do that by for sure. So thank you both for being here today.

Beth: It was our joy, thank you so much.

Dr. Kim: You bet. So Beth is going to join me back this week, and we're going to talk about how to have a thriving relationship with a One. So if you're One or married to a One, you don't want to miss that. And then we're going to go through all nine.

Yes, Beth is going to stay with us, we're going to go through all nine. So if you're not a One or married to a One, hang around, learn about a One. And then hang around, and we're going to talk about all of them. So come back on Thursday for that first one on Ones. And if there's anything we can do to you message us on Instagram, you can always email us at info@awesomemarriage.com.

We do love hearing from you don't hesitate to reach out to us. Do yourself a favor and go to yourenneagramcoach.com today. Take their free assessment and free marriage assessment and buy both Jeff's and Beth's book Becoming Us so that you can learn more about how the Enneagram can be a sanctifying tool in your marriage relationship. Guys, I can't stress how good this material is.

They also have the Becoming Us course for each couple-type combination. 45 courses, as they said, customized for each couple-type combination, which is amazing the work that had to go into that and make that. But it helps you go so much deeper into your dance, into your relational dynamics and give you practical resources, insights, so you can transform your marriage. Which is what we're really all... that's why you're listening to this podcast.

You can find this the pre-marriage assessment, the book at becomingus.com. You can grab the info on there, there's more in our show notes. And, so, just take this as a first step to doing something incredible for your marriage today.

[00:51:45] <Music>

Lindsay: Thanks for joining us today for this worth-repeating episode of The Awesome Marriage Podcast. If you would like to hear the other episodes, detailing how to be married to each type? We're going to have those links in the show notes to help you understand yourself and your spouse better.

So that you can have more of the awesome marriage that we believe God has in store for you. Thanks for listening today, for sharing your time with us. We pray this episode is helpful for you in your marriage. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today.

[00:52:16] <Music>

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[00:53:19] <Music>Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

So everyone knows that opposites attract, and most married people know that opposites then also tend to drive each other crazy. And that's one of the reasons I love Your Enneagram Coach so much.

Dr. Kim: Beth and Jeff, let's kick things off by just introducing yourselves; who you are, how you met, how long you've been married, kids, all that good stuff.

And some friends introduced us to the Enneagram and so Beth discovered she was a Nine and it began to answer a lot of fundamental questions for how she related to our kids, how she related to me.

Dr. Kim: That's awesome. Would you add anything, Beth?

Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm. That's so good.

Dr. Kim: That's awesome.

Jeff: But we're still dancing, we're still dancing, and having these same conversations.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. One of the things you guys sharing that for people to know, you guys didn't figure this out and now you have this perfect marriage?

Beth: Yes.

Jeff: No.

Dr. Kim: That is ongoing.

Beth: We're still on this side of heaven.

Beth: Absolutely.

Jeff: Yes.

Dr. Kim: Because we all get stuck. So what if you never had found the Enneagram, what would your life be like now? What would your marriage be like? Can you even get a picture of that?

Beth: Oh yes.

But I can't say, I remember going through other personality type assessments and we never saw it immediately direct or impact our marriage the way that the Enneagram had.

Dr. Kim: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: Sure, that's right.

Beth: So good.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, that's so good. And she couldn't be your savior.

Jeff: No, she couldn't.

Dr. Kim: And even if she wanted to be and tried to be, she couldn't.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely. So good. One of the concept that you used ended up becoming us is “assumicide,” such an important concept, explain that.

And we actually react and choose certain behaviors or words based upon those assumptions, and it actually ends up causing more harm than it is actually helpful.

Jeff: Yeah, you're talking as if you've heard about this before. It's so common.

Beth: Exactly.

Dr. Kim: So the band can go anywhere.

Beth: Yeah, and, so what we encourage like in our book Becoming Us is we encourage couples to ask clarifying questions and give clarifying statements.

Dr. Kim: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Kim: Oh, I think that makes such a difference if we take time to do that.

Beth: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kim: How many times we assume always the negative? Probably a lot more than the positive it's just our-

Dr. Kim: It felt like she stabbed me, but I know she wanted to affirm me.

Beth: This is like a Cliff Notes.

Jeff: It's great.

Dr. Kim: Exactly, it puts you way ahead, exactly.

Beth: Yeah.

Jeff: Sure.

Dr. Kim: I agree. And I love that and I think Nancy and I, the more we get into it, certainly, we're seeing more the complexity, but it's how it plays out with each one of us which is cool.

[00:30:08] <Music>

[00:31:08] <Music>

Dr. Kim: So we talked some about the gospel intersection with the Enneagram, talk a little bit more about that.

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.

But Jeff being a husband of 24 years who loves me, we're best friends, he is still a broken cistern. He cannot give me my core longing to the depths that I absolutely need, and I'm craving.

Beth: Yeah.

Jeff: Yes.

Dr. Kim: And he's not that stream, he can't be the stream, when Christ is the stream in our lives, that's really nice to get that thimbleful from him.

Beth: Mm-Hmm. And then you have that grace and that compassion of like, "Hey, thanks so much for giving me that thimbleful."

Dr. Kim: That's great.

Dr. Kim: No, so good. Let's switch just a minute and talk about what's the Enneagram and our marriage? What should people not do? What are some pitfalls that they can get into with the Enneagram?

Jeff: Beth, you want to start?

So that you can know who you are, your personality style, how you're hardwired, how He's designed you, but more importantly, whose you are, which is your identity in Christ.

Dr. Kim: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: Mm-hmm, that's true.

Beth: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.

Dr. Kim: That's so good.

They are the closest person to you. And it's God's ordinary means to use people in our life to bring about the change that He desires.

Beth: It was our joy, thank you so much.

[00:51:45] <Music>

[00:52:16] <Music>

[00:53:19] <Music>

Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsey Few with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today.

Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend

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