When is Enough Enough? With Dr. David E Clarke | Ep. 513
[00:00:00] <Intro>
Lindsay: Welcome to the Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I'm your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: One of the things I love about Awesome Marriage and our podcast is each month I get to interview a new person. And over the years this has connected with so many people that love helping people with marriage and helping people have better lives. Today, Dr. David Clarke joins me, and he is just one of those people. He's a practicing psychologist. He's been doing that for over 30 years.
He has a PhD in Clinical Psychology and he's got a master's in Biblical Studies. Dr. Clarke's new book Enough is Enough gives us A Step-by-Step Plan to Leaving an Abusive Marriage, with God's Help. He's seen hundreds of men and women use this process effectively. Join me in the studio as we welcome Dr. David Clarke.
[00:01:12] <Music>
Dr. Kim: Well, David, so good to welcome you to the Awesome Marriage podcast. Thank you for taking time. I know your schedule is very, very busy. And it's such an honor to spend time with you today, and share on a topic that I think we both feel is very significant, very important.
Dr. Clarke: Well, thanks for having me, Kim, I appreciate it. I love what you do.
Dr. Kim: Thank you so much. Well, how does the spouse know if it's abuse or it's bad behavior?
Dr. Clarke: Now, there's a world of a difference, I train therapists to know the difference. But bad behavior these are occasional lapses. I made a mistake from a decent, loving, husband or wife who's going to make the changes.
Abuse, different story. It's never-ending destructive behavior from a dirtball, I mean, for lack of a better word. He's rarely going to change. He's not sorry, and it just never stops. It's a consistent breaking down of another person, so that's a class all by itself.
Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Clarke: Bad behavior, look, I'm guilty of bad behavior, about every day with my wonderful wife because she's a woman, I understand her. But I'm sorry, we work it out.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Dr. Clarke: Abusers? No!
Dr. Kim: No, they're never going to say those two words, "I'm sorry."
Dr. Clarke: No, they're not because it's never their fault.
Dr. Kim: I think for them to say, "I'm sorry," would be, I don't know, what it means to them, but it wouldn't fit their profile at all.
Dr. Clarke: Ah-ah. And if they do say it, of course, it's lame, it's not a real apology, and let's move right on. But they don't mean it.
Dr. Kim: Let's get past that.
Dr. Clarke: That's right. We're not going to talk about that, how dare you?
Dr. Kim: Exactly. What are some red flags that show us the difference between actual abuse and hurtful behaviors?
Dr. Clarke: We've got, first of all, we have the never-ending pattern, that's the abuse. It's just not going to stop, it's a regular drumbeat, and the destructive properties.
Bad behavior here and there is not going to destroy you. It's disappointing, it's difficult, but we're hanging in there and there's positive things. Abuse is destructive, you're going to break down physically. We have the same thing, Kim, when you see a lady who's had it for 10 years, 20 years, 25 years, she's just a wreck.
All the stress-induced problems, you could imagine, their immune system breaking down. Of course, emotional destruction, depressed, anxious, self-esteem, shredded. We've got spiritual issues because they're wrestling with God, "Why would God allow this?" And they're prevented from serving Him.
And, of course, the kids, the little boys are going to become abusers because that's what they're being modeled, and mom taking it and the little girls are going to date and marry abusers. So that's the defining lie, just all the destructive things that happen?
Dr. Kim: I think so too. And, I think, my experience, when a wife realizes sometimes it'll be what they realize is happening to the kids that will help them to take action. They may not do it for themselves, which I want them to, but they may do it for the kids.
Dr. Clarke: True, you prove this too, Kim, they, actually believe and the church oftentimes will give them the wrong message. Well, "it's always best for the kids if you stay in a marriage." No, not in this scenario, because they are being destroyed. And, of course, you've seen this too, the abuser, the narcissistic abuser is actually turning your kids against you.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Dr. Clarke: Oh my goodness. And so now you're going to have, they'll disrespect you, they'll abuse you. Oh, man, I want to get them out before that happens.
Dr. Kim: Yes, because I've seen it go that far, then it's so difficult. So let's just talk a little bit about narcissism, what are the key signs? Unpack that just a little bit?
Dr. Clarke: Yeah, because almost all abusers, as you know, Kim, they're narcissists. This is a character disorder. It's deeply entrenched, almost always goes back to childhood.
Either they were spoiled rotten, or there was abuse involved, and they learned early on, there's this core that's about me, I got to take care of myself. World-class selfishness, it is, literally, all about that person.
Your needs, if you're the spouse, your needs don't even make their radar screen. And they really believe that if I'm a narcissist, and, so, if Sandy just meets my needs, well, then I'll be happy, but then you will be happy too because your whole life should revolve around me.
There is no empathy of any kind. If the wife is crying or upset over something, "Well, what's the matter with you. I could care less about you." There was no conscience and it's forever your fault. It's always the other person's fault. There is no, "I think I made a mistake here, I must have done something wrong." And this kind of person they will not talk about any topic that they don't want to talk about.
Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Clarke: From small to large it's a difficult thing. In a healthy marriage if Sandy wants to, my Sandy, wants to talk about something I talked about it.
Dr. Kim: Right.
Dr. Clarke: I'm her loving husband. If it upsets her, HEY, even if I don't get it at first. The narcissist will not do that. Silent treatment, I've had ladies who had this too for days and weeks and months of silence, he's been punishing you. Because you had the nerve to bring up a topic or bringing up an argument, but they're not going to deal with that topic. So that's what narcissism looks like and it's ugly.
Dr. Kim: It really is. Sometimes I think narcissists, know how to get what they want, obviously, and it's always unhealthy. But I think the fact that sometimes they say the right thing, but there's no follow-through.
It's almost like it's patting on the head and saying, "Well, here, I'm giving you just a little bit of a bone now, just to pacify you, and then I'm going to be back doing what I've done."
Dr. Clarke: That's exactly right. It's constantly pulling the rug, promises made, just to have the woman just leave you alone. But they believe their own lies, so they're persuasive. The woman, of course, being nurturing, and loving, and hopeful, things will— maybe this time. Nah, nope. It's like Charlie Brown and Lucy, with every fall she's holding the dumb football.
Dr. Kim: That's great.
Dr. Clarke: And she says, "This time, Charlie, I am not going to." And, of course, he goes forward, of course, he puts the football out of the way. I'm telling these ladies it's never going to stop, stop believing he'll change, assume he wouldn't.
Dr. Kim: Let's talk about something that you mentioned just a minute ago. And that's where a woman feels, it's not Christian to leave, and maybe even in her church people are saying, "You can't leave, you don't leave." And my experience has been sometimes the guy is very involved in the church, and everybody in the church, all the leaders think he's the greatest guy in the world.
He shows up, he does things, he volunteers, he does all these things. So that everybody in church thinks and comes up to her and says, "You got the most wonderful husband in the world." And then she goes home and it's confusing. And it's, I think, them always pointing at themselves, "There's something wrong with me." And there's not
Dr. Clarke: Yeah. And very often, Kim, as you know, they were raised that way. All of these ladies come from their own abusive homes. They saw mom take it and take it, and dad was abusive. So it's like, this is normal for them.
And then, as you say, the church. These guys are wonderful on the outside, especially at church, even the neighborhood, do anything for the people, behind closed doors is a different story. And, so, the woman knows, "Boy, if I have the nerve to mention this, they're not going to believe me."
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Dr. Clarke: And I'll tell them, "Yep, you're losing the PR battle. He's too good, he's been at it for years." But you're going to find some key people that do believe you. And a lot of pastors, you've had this too, Kim, if you don't walk into the pastor's office with a broken arm and a black eye, you're not going to get any action.
Because they don't understand emotional abuse. And the guy, of course, lying his head off and will turn it back on the woman. And she'll be told, "Yeah, well, this isn't abuse."
They'll minimize it, or it's your fault, or the classic, "If you just keep loving him, he'll change." That's true if they're decent. This isn't a decent guy, he's never going to change. So there's a lot of resistance I face, as you have too, with some of these ladies. I got to get past that resistance, so they can start taking some action.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I think so. And I think the guys when they're doing that, they're not going to change. They're just playing the game a little bit.
And yet, I think, one thing I've seen, it seems like some guys do a pretty good job of arranging, I don't know, their posse, their squad. They get a bunch of people that they make believe or the way they portray themselves that, "He couldn't be an abuser, he couldn't. There really does have to be something wrong with her."
Dr. Clarke: Right. Oh, yeah. And these narcissists will spend years developing that narrative. So by the time that lady speaks up, yeah, it's a done deal. That's why I say you have to develop a whole new support team. After you leave, new church, maybe some new friends, you got to get people that believe you.
When I do these phone advice sessions with these ladies from across the country now. It's such a relief when I say, "I believe, you. I take the history I believe you." Because nobody believes them.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Dr. Clarke: And, so, that's the beginning of, "Okay, I'm not crazy." Because the narcissist will drive you crazy, absolutely he will. Gaslighting and making you doubt yourself at every turn.
Dr. Kim: Well, I think gaslighting has become, at least, a part of our culture now as far as vocabulary. So, at least, I think it's put that on the table for people can at least understand what it is a little bit.
Because I don't think they we did not that long ago. I think there was a movie in the '40s on gaslighting, but I don't think anybody today watched that movie. And, so, we had to, kind of, bring that up.
But, I think, that in itself, talk about gaslighting a little bit. Can you give a couple of examples that someone might pick up on? How do I know if I'm being gaslighted?
Dr. Clarke: This is a narcissist attempt. It's really very effective over the course of months and years, of making you doubt yourself. Doubt what you think and believe, and believe that you're crazy.
I had a guy, this was an older man, in my office. It's been a couple of years ago and he's sitting there with his wife. And I realized early on he was a narcissist, I convinced her of that, and what he was doing was he was hiding her keys.
He knew she was on the verge of exposing this to the family. He didn't want that. And so he's hiding her keys and she'd say, "Where are my keys?" He was the one hiding them, but he said, "I don't know, honey."
Dr. Kim: Oh, wow.
Dr. Clarke: He was literally trying to drive her nuts. I said, "Ma'am, he's the one hiding your keys." She said, "You're kidding me." I said, "You go back home today and you hide his keys. We're going to see how he likes it."
I mean, she had to get, and this was a sweet, older woman. I said, "You got to get tough." And, of course, it's on and on. You know what he just said in a conversation. You say, "Well, you said." And he'll say, "I didn't say that." "I didn't mean that." "I didn't do that." And he comes across as very persuasive because he believes his own logic.
Dr. Kim: True.
Dr. Clarke: He will deny what you know is true. You could have a video of the guy saying something and he'll say, "I didn't say that. That video was doctored."
Dr. Kim: I know.
Dr. Clarke: So the woman starts to think; "Maybe it is me?"
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Dr. Clarke: No, it's not you, it's him.
Dr. Kim: Well, and, I think, especially when the woman is isolated, of which, I think, a lot of times, like you were saying, a narcissist does, they try to isolate their spouse.
So they don't get to talk to anybody, or share, or have somebody say, "I think it may be something wrong with your husband, not you." And I think the same thing when you tell someone that's in that situation that you believe them, there is a change in their countenance that is amazing. Because nobody's ever believed them.
Dr. Clarke: No. And at the end, if they try to talk to the pastor, or even, family, or a friend, they get the "No, this can't be true." And denial, in the Christian community is very strong, we don't want to really go there. We don't want to believe there is abuse in our church.
Dr. Kim: Yeah. No.
Dr. Clarke: Well, there is. The numbers are just about the same as in secular society. So we're trying to open pastors' eyes with this Enough is Enough book too.
Dr. Kim: I agree. And I'm not sure why, I think, you're right. Sometimes pastors are too busy or they don't know, or that the guy is so good at it that they just believe him.
Dr. Clarke: Yeah, these guys will, as you said earlier, they'll cozy up to the pastor. He's on the finance committee, he's an elder, he's a deacon, he mows the lawn of the church. He is there, he's greeting people and so this is a key person, well, he's got to be godly.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Dr. Clarke: Not necessarily.
Dr. Kim: No, "What is wrong with you, lady?" I mean, they may not say that but that's kind of be, I'm sure it goes through some of their minds sometimes.
Dr. Clarke: And, of course, he'll have an answer, if he even gets that far. If the pastor meets with the guy, he'll have an answer for every single thing the woman has said.
Dr. Kim: Yes. And they're quick on their feet, they lie like breathing. So it's like, "That's not true. That's not true." And he'll create a scenario where, "Oh, my poor wife, Pastor, she's just not all mentally there, she's got these issues." And he starts believing that.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, man.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I think what you said is true too. The quick responses, it's where I've seen women and they just get so confused with that. That they just either start crying or shut down and then they're ridiculed for doing that.
Dr. Clarke: Exactly, I'll tell these ladies, "He's setting you up. He's driving you crazy." When you blow it, you're hysterical, you're angry, you're losing it." Then he says, "Look at you, what's the matter with you?" Well, the guy set the whole thing up.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely. So why do women stay? I mean, I know we're going to have women listening to this. They're going to be trying to, "Is it bad behavior? Is it abuse?" They're, kind of as we're talking they think, "Man, might I be married to a narcissist?" Why do they stay?
Dr. Clarke: Boy, I've seen a number of reasons, Kim. They get to the kids, they really believe, until we tell them differently, "It's better for the kids if I stay." No, not true. There are being destroyed in your relationship with those being destroyed.
They will think, "Well, I can't make it on my own, I'm dependent." But often they're dependent financially, "How can I possibly." I say, "Look, you take a year, take two. I don't care. Start the process. This is America, you can make it on your own."
But they think, "I can't possibly do that." And of course, they're fighting the church very often the message is, "You have to submit." The submissive passages are used to beat the woman over the head.
This does not apply to serious sin, it does not, you don't submit to a sinner like this. And of course, their self-esteem is shattered, their identity is gone. And, so, they think, "Boy, I'm just stuck, here I am." And, of course, they'll be told too, "You have no biblical reason to separate or divorce." That's also not true, there are exceptions and this is one of them.
Dr. Kim: I don't think God, ever, expects anybody to be in an abusive situation and stay there.
Dr. Clarke: No.
Dr. Kim: I mean, that's not consistent with what Jesus did when He was here. It's not consistent with what God tells us to do.
Dr. Clarke: Absolutely. We've got clear biblical teaching on that and we also have examples. So I think God's made it clear, but the pastors I talked with aren't reading those passages right, they don't get it.
Dr. Kim: Right. Absolutely. So what would you say to a woman that you're talking to, and you've kind of talked to and obviously she's married to a narcissist. How would you encourage? What would you consider encourage her next step to be?
Dr. Clarke: Well, number one, this will shock you, Kim, read this incredible book Enough is Enough.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Dr. Clarke: A Step-by-Step Plan — you knew that was coming — To Leave an Abusive Relationship with God's Help. So I say, "Look, with an open mind." Now it's a secret plan, have it sent to a friend, get the E-book, it's on Audible, look, but with an open mind. Read that book, because that's like the first step.
Then I say, "You have to make it a matter of prayer." And if you pray, "God, reveal the truth." He'll do that, He'll find ways to do it. And then find somebody, it may not be your pastor or somebody in your circle of friends. Maybe it's your dad, maybe he's supportive because a lot of these ladies won't even tell their own people the truth.
Dr. Kim: Right.
Dr. Clarke: You'll find somebody and you've got to tell the truth that you know loves you and will believe you. And that begins the beginning of a support system, so those are the initial steps. And I say, "Look, there's no hurry, you're not leaving tomorrow." You're not ready to leave now.
You're healing, you've got emotional work to do, support team, financial peace, get the kids ready. This is going to take you months but start the process. And I'll help guide you through and with the support team, so those are the initial steps to get them out. It seems insurmountable, but it's not.
Dr. Kim: Well, I think, all of those are important, but a support team, I think is essential for them. I had a couple, a few years ago, and he had convinced his spouse's parents that something was wrong with their daughter. And, so, she didn't have her parents to go to.
Now, they finally came around, but that, to me, it was how good this guy was at convincing people that, "I'm okay and she's not. And I know it's your daughter and we're going to help her, and I just wanted you to know."
Dr. Clarke: Yeah. Oh, I've seen that too. Talk about insidious, and really evil, that's evil. You always support your wife and you hold her up. They just undercut her, it's incredible. They turn your own people against the person. Oh, I'm pretty good at getting people mad.
So righteous anger was also a key here and they don't want to get angry. I say, "You're not going to say anything to him, you're going to manage him." Because we didn't want him to be tipped off, but you can be good and mad. And if I can get him mad, and then we're getting somewhere.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely. So we've talked around church and everything, what does the Bible say about leaving an abusive marriage?
Dr. Clarke: God has been very gracious to give us clear teaching, Kim. Matthew 18:15-17 is clear, there are no caveats. If there's a serious sinner, there's confrontation, now, these ladies that have mentioned things for 20, 25, years, 15 years, so you've already gone through those steps.
The end-stage there, with a serious sinner, is you get away from it, that clearly indicates separation. Whether it's somewhere in the body of Christ or a friend or your husband.
We've got Romans 16:17, "Shun all those who cause divisions." Okay, well, same principle. 1 Corinthians 5 there's that person in the church that was involved in outrageous sexual sin. Well, he was given a chance and then — Paul said, "Remove him from the fellowship and have nothing to do with him."
If that's your husband, then that's the principle. 2 Timothy, I love 2 Timothy 3:1-5, well, talk about a great description of narcissism. Oh, my goodness. And the end stage of he's this, and he's selfish, and he's this, and he's addicted, and he's insane, is “have nothing to do with that person."
Okay, that's the kind of person we're talking about, so that's the clear teaching. Then we have the examples in the Bible, Abigail and Nabal chief among them.
She was married to a horrible narcissist. Nabal was selfish, he was abusive, he was a drunkard, he was an alcoholic, and she was faced with having her entire household killed by David. And, so, she secretly gathered the goods and saved the day. A woman in that day never did that, never, because she had no right, she was property.
Dr. Kim: Right.
Dr. Clarke: Nabal could have taken her out and killed her in front of the entire community. And people would have said, "Well, okay." God ended up taking him out. We have the story of Esther, which is beautiful, she had two narcissists on her hands.
Haman, who had all the cards, wanted to kill all the Jews, including her. And then, of course, the king himself, awful narcissist, and she, with some help, of course, God got her out of that situation, spared her, Haman was killed. I mean, God is sending us clear messages and those ladies had even less chance than a lady in America today, much less.
Dr. Kim: Sure. Like you said they were property, they just didn't really matter much. And our women do matter, they matter a lot.
Dr. Clarke: Yeah.
Dr. Kim: Do you feel like there are, in most cities, safe places for women to go? If it really does get to that point? Then do you encourage a woman to go, if it's really what becomes physical? It could be harmful that she would leave?
Dr. Clarke: There are. And I'm aware of those resources, of course, in my area, and, I mean, almost all therapists are. And it might be a secular organization, at that point, I don't care, you need safety and there are principles.
So if it's physical violence, you're leaving today. He can bang your head against the wall, you had brain damage, happened to one lady I saw. One lady lost an eye because he threw a lamp at her, she didn't leave in time.
So we'll circle the wagon, we're going to have to speed the program up. But there are resources, you will be protected, and then you'll stay separate it and go through the steps.
Dr. Kim: I think almost anywhere people live, there's going to be a resource. There may be a little while or the next town, or next city, but there's going to be a safe place for them to go, and it's okay to go out there.
Dr. Clarke: Yeah, there are shelters. We could use the same thing but for the emotional abuse, but physical, they're out there. Oh, yeah.
Dr. Kim: And I think a lot of time narcissists don't get physical, maybe because they don't want a chance of any kind of outward sign that I have abused this woman.
Dr. Clarke: Right. So that's rare with these guys. But, boy, it does happen, and, man, if that happens, you're leaving now. Get your kids and get out. Call the police, we're talking restraining order, we're talking police involvement. He might lose his job, so what?
We're trying to get his attention to protect you. God forbid, I'll tell these ladies, "Well, even if you're killed, or one of the children is seriously harmed physically, at least, he keeps his job. Come on! Don't go there."
Dr. Kim: Exactly. So one of the things that I see, I hear from women sometimes, they make the step they finally have separation and he is out. "But he's working so hard, he's changing. I know he's changing and it's been four days and he wants to come back, and I know he's changed." What do you say to someone like that?
Dr. Clarke: I say be very skeptical, he doesn't like to lose. And no one, no narcissist ever changes in four days, I'm sorry, not going to happen.
So he's blowing smoke and you give him four months of consistent, five months, six months, of consistent. And I've got a whole list of things in the book as you know, Kim, that he's going to have to do to prove you're going to stay separated, true repentance never wavers. And I'll say, "Look just for practice and I want you to say no.
But if you say no to him coming back, let's see how he responds. He'll revert right back, "How dare you? I've seen the light, I've changed." No, you haven't, no you haven't. And I'll tell the lady, "Look, even if he has changed, he hasn't, you're not ready, you haven't healed, you're not strong enough."
So this is about you now and your kids, not about him anyway. I'll tell these guys and if I happen to see them or the woman, "This is seven or eight months of work he's got to do."
Dr. Kim: Hard work.
Dr. Clarke: You're separated. Then when he gets that done and he's proven it, you're still separated. Now, we're going to start some couple work when you both are ready.
But even that's going to be, the first part of that is him helping you heal from what he's done to you. So this is a long way out, don't buy it.
I had a lady just this last week take a man back. And within 20 minutes, literally, he was back in the home and he was punishing her for kicking him out. Oh, man, I said, "Ma'am, let's get back on track." She knows he made a mistake.
Dr. Kim: And one thing and we've talked some about how God worked in the Bible and in situations. I think too if a wife prays that God will let her know what's true and what's not true with her spouse, that God will show that
Dr. Clarke: He will. Oh, I've seen that happen hundreds of times. "With an open mind, God show me?" And He'll show you because He doesn't want you in there. I say, "God is not just okay with you leaving, He wants you to leave."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Dr. Clarke: I think it's clear, at this level of abuse.
Dr. Kim: I agree, totally agree. In the book, Enough is Enough, you describe a tough-love approach to helping abused spouses. Why is that the best way to help them?
Dr. Clarke: Boy, it's about the only way I've ever seen work, Kim. These guys rarely change. But if they do change, in my experience, it's only when you're not tolerated anymore, there's a line in the sand, and you're not going to deal with it anymore. And frankly, in my experience, there's a separation.
Some few cases I've had where that hasn't been necessary. But even in those cases, the lady had had enough. And she was strong enough, she had a job, she was tougher, and she hung in there with him, but even so, "I'm not taking any more abuse. I'm not." The passive, "I hope he changes, I'm still loving him, I'm putting up with this..." Literally, never, he's never going to change.
He's not going to wake up one day and go, "I'm an abuser, I think, I'll change." Not going to happen. He's going to keep doing it because you're taking it.
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Dr. Clarke: Well, it's your fault anyway. So I think that tough love is always the way to go. Almost every lady fights me on that initially, because they don't want to do the tough love. "Can't you see my husband? Can't you work with my husband?" I say, "No, I don't have the patience for that."
We're not going to do couple work, waste of time at this stage. I've got people that I can refer your husband to if he wants to do the work. But that's going to be after you're gone because it's dangerous to stay.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: He'll punish you severely if you take that kind of a stand. He'll make your life a living hell, so we don't want that. Better be gone.
Dr. Kim: No. Yes, absolutely. And it just takes time, sometimes, I think, for a woman to get there. But I do feel like once the woman gets there she's there most of the time. Now, you've mentioned some [Inaudible 00:27:07] back. But, I think, women give and give and give, and when they finally get there, it's like, "Okay, I am done"
Dr. Clarke: Yeah, right, and that's a good thing.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: They will take all kinds of... but when they close the door, now we're talking. And that's where I want them to be. I'm trying to speed that process, if I can, so they can limit the damage to their kids and their lives, and give the guy a chance to change.
Dr. Kim: I don't know if I've seen the stats. But I would imagine statistics of boys growing up in an abusive home like that, probably turned out to be abusers. Or at least there's that something they've got to fight or work through.
Because that was their model, that was their normal, all of those kinds of things. And then for a daughter, I mean, the last thing, I think hopefully, even a narcissist doesn't want his daughter to be treated that way, but maybe.
Dr. Clarke: Yeah. I think they're so jaded they don't even care, and they don't get it, and they wouldn't see it as abuse. Oh, yeah, I've seen that happen so often with these older ladies that come in. They've been 40, 45 years, now it's generational, their kids have turned against them. The daughters have abusers, their boys are abusers and they've turned on her. She can't see the grandkids and the narcissist wins, he's the one they're attached to.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, my goodness. And they think what am... I say, "I know, Ma'am, it's okay, let's start from where we can start from, and you're still better off leaving, even if they all turn on you. Over time, maybe, they can get it because you're making the situation clear. If you stay they think you're fine with it."
Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm. I think narcissists don't show empathy and I think that's a big red flag with someone. I mean, when I had that happen in my office, and the wife is just pouring her heart out and the guy looks like he is, I don't know, watching Netflix or something. No response at all, no empathy.
Dr. Clarke: Could care less.
Dr. Kim: Right. Then the lady quits and then she feels stupid, because, "I just poured my heart out and this guy didn't even scoot closer on the couch to me at all."
Dr. Clarke: Didn't reach out for the hand.
Dr. Kim: No.
Dr. Clarke: Right.
Dr. Kim: didn't even-
Dr. Clarke: These are all signals that you can pick up on, and go "Oh-oh, we have a narcissist on our hands." I can't wait to get that guy out of my office. I'm going to see her in the next session, just her I'll probably never see him again. I'm going to see her and try to get her on board.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I agree.
Dr. Clarke: And I tell these ladies, "Look, tell the narcissist, your husband, that you've got all kinds of problems. He'll buy that because he thinks you're nuts anyway and you're going to be doing work with me. What he won't know is I'm getting you strong enough to leave him."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Dr. Clarke: And you'll find out down the road?
Dr. Kim: Yeah, that's so good, because it does take time. I mean, you've got a whole mindset. You mentioned ladies had been married 40 years or so, and that's a long time to be in that situation. There's got to... and God can do that. It's renewing your mind. it's changing things, it's realizing you're worth more than that, so much more than that.
Dr. Clarke: These ladies come back to me and once they've left and their health is often dramatically improved. And they can sleep at night and there's peace in the home. And their emotional health is coming back, they're closer to God.
They're working on the relationship with the kids, that takes time, sometimes, but everything is changed. He's still a narcissist and he'll make you suffer for leaving him. But you know what, at least, it's at a distance and you got some control.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And just getting past the fear. Because there are people that will come alongside her, and that they will be with her finding those people.
Dr. Clarke: They're out there. They absolutely are out there.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, right
Dr. Clarke: I'll tell them, "If it's not your pastor, find a local pastor at another church who gets it on the q.t. and then once you leave, that's where you're going. You'll go to that church.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, where you are received and accepted, and not put down because you got a divorce or separation.
Dr. Clarke: Right.
Dr. Kim: Things like that. So if someone today is probably listening, then they're thinking, "Oh, my gosh, I just listened in, I always listen to Awesome Marriage podcast, they're talking about my marriage today. Step one is we've talked a little bit about that, but for some people that when they first hear this and begin to think through it, maybe a counselor would be the next step for them.
Dr. Clarke: I have them first, "You hit your knees, God is speaking to you through this podcast. God has used it and He's using it now." But make it a matter of prayer, "God, this is resonating, help me if he's abusive, please let me know." God will confirm that.
And when I say on the q.t., secret, just start writing down and you might need a forest full of paper. But writing down the things he's done to you that have been harmful, that have been hurtful, things he said, things he's done. And it might be 20, 25 might be 100, just start writing them down.
Because these ladies operate in denial, and they just got to get past it and get past it. Well, tomorrow is a new day. No, this is groundhog day, it's the same dumb abusive day.
So start writing it down and reach out to somebody that knows and loves you, tell them the truth. And I would get the Enough is Enough book, I wrote it for you. I'm telling these ladies your picture is on the front, your photo, a nice photo of you. You're happy, you're free, I'm telling you read the book.
Those are the initial steps and then you begin the process, and it will take a while. Just strengthening yourself and taking all the preparation steps I have in the book, and then you're going to get out, that's the light at the end of the tunnel.
Dr. Kim: I think so too. But if you're listening today the worst thing you could do, if this describes you, is do nothing, right?
Dr. Clarke: Yeah, that's end-stage. No hope. You're going to be destroyed.
Dr. Kim: Get the book, get it on tape, put a brown cover on it if you have to. But he's not going to pay attention to what you're reading, anyway, probably.
Dr. Clarke: I mean, he doesn't care about you.
Dr. Kim: He doesn't care.
Dr. Clarke: I know. You could carry around a unicorn and the guy wouldn't notice because he doesn't care about you, so you're probably safe. Just keep it in your purse or in a safe place, and it's an easy read, but it's powerful. It'll lay out, defining the abuser, why you can get out, why God wants you to get out, and then how do you get out.
Dr. Kim: I think what you and I do, we get a lot of rewards. But, to me, one of the greatest rewards is when you see a woman gain strength and know that it's okay with God, and she's able to do what she needed to do a long time ago, but now she's ready to do it.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, it's a beautiful thing, isn't it, Kim?
Dr. Kim: It just makes me want to smile, and cry, and everything all at once.
Dr. Clarke: Me too.
Dr. Kim: It's you and your kids are going to be okay.
Dr. Clarke: It's beautiful. And, really, I'll tell them and this is God's truth. "I don't think he's going to change, don't expect it. But if he might, he just might, it's his only shot." You go back to an empty house and your wife has left you? You're going to find out if he loves you or not, and the Lord and if he's going to change.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And just be patient, take time, and, I think, once you make the steps, hopefully, you begin to look at him in a different way than you have in the past.
Dr. Clarke: You're right.
Dr. Kim: And to realize he's really sick, there are some real bad stuff there.
Dr. Clarke: Yeah, there is. He's got a ton of work to do if he wants to do it.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Well, this has been an incredible conversation. I cannot wait for this one to get out for people to hear. Thank you for being here. The book is Enough is Enough and probably every woman should read that, just because if it's not you, you've got a friend that's going to need it.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, right.
Dr. Kim: And you can get it and you can give it to a friend. If they want to connect to you, what's the best way to find you?
Dr. Clarke: The best way is the website, everything is on the website, David E. Clarke, Clarke with an -e- on the end. It's silent but it's important to us Clarkes with the -e-, davideclarkephd.com, simple. Books, videos, podcasts, all this stuff there.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I was messing around with it, it's great stuff. Great stuff of what you're doing, I love it. I love the kindred spirit we have about love the way how adamant and strong you are on the topic that we've got to be adamant and strong on.
Dr. Clarke: Me too, in fact, I love talking to you, Kim, you get it. This is your field, you're smart, you're godly, and you get it. People interview me sometimes and it's obvious they don't get it. I mean, they're interviewing me but they haven't walked with it.
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Dr. Clarke: So this is a pleasure.
Dr. Kim: There's a difference. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day and look forward to getting together again sometime.
Dr. Clarke: Man, I'd like to. Thanks Kim.
Dr. Kim: Thank you.
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