Worth Repeating: Sex - Embracing the Differences

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations, and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I'm your Podcast Producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship. 

Today's episode is a great follow-up to last week's worth-repeating episode Making Your Spouse Comfortable in the Bedroom. If you missed that one, make sure you catch up on that from last week. So it may go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, you probably don't want to listen to this one with the kids around. 

This week, Dr. Kim and Christina are going over some of the typical differences between how men and women approach sex in marriage. Now they're speaking generally today based on Dr. Kim's years of counseling experience, as well as the feedback that we so often hear from couples. 

But we also do know and recognize that every single couple is unique and will have a unique situation. Wherever you are today, take something from this podcast episode. To help you embrace the differences between you and your spouse. 

Tune in and learn to better embrace the differences God has designed between you and your spouse. We pray this episode is helpful to you in your marriage.

[00:01:15] <Music>

Christina: So today, we're going to be talking about embracing the differences when it comes to sex. Men and women are different, but different by design, God created us that way.

So today, we're going to be talking all about these differences and how we can embrace those differences to have great sex in marriage. So Dr. Kim, just to kick things off, what are the main differences you see between men and women when it comes to sex?

Dr. Kim: Well, God designed us different and not only physically, but I think the way we look at sex. I mean, for guys, we're interested in the physical. I think I may have said before about when I used to teach sex education to the fifth graders, and the boys were pulling up their body, "How does it work?" All this kind of thing. And the girls were more about the relationship and that kind of thing, and I think that plays out.

I think for a woman to be engaged in sex, I mean, the way she looks at it as different. She wants to be with someone she can trust, someone that's committed to her all those kinds of things. For a guy, I think those things are important, but really the physical part of it and the fact that his wife responds to him, that's the most important thing. 

I think, for a guy, it's an affirmation. If my wife enjoys sex with me, I'm really doing a good job and that kind of thing. And, so, they really do play out very differently, and I think it is by design. I think God made it different for a reason.

Christina: Yeah, definitely, I agree. I think a lot of women are craving security in their relationship when it comes to feeling vulnerable in the sexual part of it. I think some obvious things that are out there, men, typically, climax way faster than a woman will. Whereas it can take real work for a woman to orgasm. 

Dr. Kim: Right.

Christina: Women can orgasm multiple times back to back, whereas men have that refractory period, that's a difference. Most men during intercourse can have orgasm, whereas most women that's not going to be the case. You have to go before, men, and serve your wife first and then have intercourse. So there's a lot of differences, sex drive differences, things like that.

But I do want to say that, obviously, in this podcast, we're speaking in generalities. But if you're a woman who has this greater sex drive than her husband or vice versa that's okay, and you're not alone in that. 

We have gotten so many emails and so many chats about all these things. Like, if you were to say, "Hey, I feel like we're really different in this one area." Trust me, we've heard it, you're not alone. So even though we're speaking in generalities here. It doesn't mean that there aren't tons of women and tons of men in other categories, in these situations- [Audio warbled 00:03:50]

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Christina: ...or you're just kind of unique in that sense, and that's okay.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. Because I agree with you, and I've seen people back at counseling and I've had women that said, "My sex drive is higher than my husband's, is something wrong with me? And I said, "No, you're just wired, that's just where you are." And it's kind of interesting when it seems like, though, usually it is the man has a higher drive than the woman. 

But when the woman has a high drive it usually the guy doesn't have as big a drive. It's almost like there's not two of them that have the high drive at the same time. And maybe that's by design, too, because they might not get anything else done in life.

Christina: I definitely. That's a good point, Dr. Kim, I think, you're right. I think for the ones that I've heard that are flip-flopped, it is literally flip-flopped, it's not like they're both trying to have sex all day, every day.

Dr. Kim: Right.

Christina: But, yeah, you wouldn't go to work and you got to pay the bills.

Dr. Kim: Exactly, you'll have to be broke and poor, but maybe happy. Who knows?

Christina: Maybe, I don't know. So why do you think God wired men and women so different when it comes to sex?

Dr. Kim: I think it's purposeful. I think God does not do things just haphazardly. He just didn't go, "Okay, let's do it this way." I mean, I think, He wants us to learn from each other. I think that's in so many areas of marriage, and a sexual thing too. 

I mean, the things that I've learned from Nancy, about the way to treat her sexually because those things are important to her. Because she needs to trust me, she needs to feel secure with me. That I need to honor that, I need to do things that make her feel comfortable in a sexual relationship. 

And, I think, for women and men to learn that we are a lot different. I mean, us guys, we do think about sex more. We do think about our wife sexually more and that we're not just some weirdo because of that, that we are wired like that. 

And then sometimes the woman is like, "Oh, I think, all he thinks about sex." And I was like, "Well, maybe, but what if he wasn't attracted to you, how would you feel then?" So I mean, I think, those differences are to help us to understand each other, grow, and to learn how to serve each other in the sexual relationship. Just like in the other things in marriage, we talk about serving each other.

Christina: Yeah, definitely, that is good. And that takes getting to know each other, to learn how to do that-

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. 

Christina: ...and understanding those differences, so I think that's one of the key messages that I want our listeners to take away from this is what you just said. We have to know each other's differences in order to serve each other. 

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Christina: I do think that God did this and, obviously, this is a guess, we don't know this for sure, God didn't lay everything out for us. And I've shared this before in other podcasts, but I think it's worth mentioning again. 

I think, maybe, just maybe God created it this way so that the man could go first and serve his wife and pleasure in a sexual relationship. Just because most women don't have orgasms during sex. Most women take longer to orgasm. The men do have that refractory period where after they have an orgasm, the way that they can please your wife is going to be limited because he's not erect anymore. 

And, so, could it not be that God created the man to be the leader? And what did Jesus do as a leader, He served? Could it not be that He designed it for the man, the husband to serve his wife, love his wife, let her have an orgasm first, do that for her, and then enjoy her physically? I just think that might be what He had planned?

Dr. Kim: No, I think that makes a lot of sense. Because I know guys, and I think a guy's tendency, sometimes, is they can be selfish in sex. Man, I've talked to guys and couples that think, she didn't think he cared about if she had an orgasm or not. 

Well, I think what you're saying is right. If we care about our wives in those areas and we meet that need, I mean, there's a lot of joy in meeting that need for your wife. I mean, just to know that you can please her and that you bring her enjoyment, and there's a lot to be said for that. 

And, so, I think, God's ways are amazing. And, I think, all these questions I'll ask Him someday, and they may not matter in heaven then. And I think He's all purposeful about things and there's a reason for things, and that makes total sense. That's another way that we can lead as husbands, I love it.

Christina: Yeah, definitely. And I love that you bring that up that it is a man's joy to please his wife, and I think that is true. I think, all you husbands out there listening, if your wife were to act like she didn't enjoy sex, or she didn't like sex is not your sexual experience worse. 

If she's just lying there and acting annoyed or acting distant. Then you're like, "Well if she's clearly enjoying this, if she's clearly feeling good about it, then you're excited. And, so, I think you're so right, that we get enjoyment from our spouse's pleasure. But we have to lean into that and be selfless in order to gain that good pleasure. It's what we talk about a lot here, the easier thing is not the good thing. 

So would it be easier to just sit there and take from your wife, and not care about whether she is enjoying or not? Yeah, sure that would be easier, it takes more work to make sure she's enjoying it. And when you serve her first, absolutely. 

But is it going to be better if you serve her and do that? Absolutely. And will you enjoy more? I think so, I think that's true 100% of the time.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. I don't know any guy in a marriage that wants a body to perform on. I think he wants his wife to enjoy it and to engage with him. And, so, I think, for us as guys realizing that our wives don't get sexual excited as easy as we do, in most instances, with most couples. 

So, there's that challenge to help her become excited about that. And to bring her over that before she has that desire and wants to be with you at that time, too. And, to me, I always thought that was fun. I knew it took Nancy a little longer to get warmed up, but, to me, that was part of the fun of it too. 

Because and the fact that she was willing to. If she kept saying NO whatever and she never really ever said no, unless she was sick or something. But it was just that I knew I wanted her to enjoy it, like I was going to enjoy it. And, so, to do that I needed to do my part in that.

Guys can talk about sex, and the guy said, "Yep, I'm ready to go like that." And a woman it takes some time usually, and that's all right. Women that are listening, I mean, I think, I've told the story before about the lady that really got this at one point, and she just never thought about sex. 

So on her calendar she put the S on a couple of days a week, and that meant think sex. And so she would look at her calendar and she'd think, "Okay, I want to be prepared for him. I want to think..." Because a woman's sexual organ is her mind. I mean, completely the core of it is in her mind. And, so, I thought that was a great idea. 

I mean, I think it's just for women to know that they, probably, have to be a little more intentional with their mind in that area. Because usually most women don't sit around thinking about it, all the time. 

Christina: Yeah, definitely. I know and the mental thing is a big piece of that. I love what you said a few minutes ago, the word you used, I think was so key. "Most men don't want a body to perform on." And I think a good counterword to that would be engaged. 

So you want to engage in intimacy with your spouse, which is like a mutual process. Whereas performance is just like, "Well, this is just something you're doing, we are operational." And so I love that distinction there, so I feel like that is really good. 

Dr. Kim: Yeah, I agree. 

Christina: So what are the common ways you see couples handling these differences that we have between men and women poorly?

Dr. Kim: Well, I think we have so much to fight through in the culture we live in, and what we see in movies, what we've seen TV shows, what we read all that stuff. So we get unrealistic expectations. I think most of what is in the media, movies is just on the physical. But I think so much of what God has for us is much more than the physical. 

Certainly the physical there and we love that part, but there is a most other spiritual. Those kind of things we talk about with Christians. And, so, I think when we have those unrealistic expectations, we can mess things up some way in a sexual relationship. 

And believing things to be true that aren't true and so I think there's a lot of things that we have to deal with. And then what are your expectations of your spouse? And we talk all the time about how we have to communicate about things. 

Sex is one of the most important things I think, to communicate about and couples, as I've said before, don't do that very well. And, so, talk about what are your expectations? What are your expectations for me? What are my expectations for you? Are those realistic? What can we do to make it better? How would you rate it? Let's talk about it. 

If we rate our sex life, maybe we are at a six right now, what does it take to move it to a seven? And what can we both do to make that happen? And, so, then you're working together instead of just buying in all this other stuff, and just having unrealistic expectations, and get frustrated with it?

Christina: Yeah, definitely, and, so, I'd say too as well as communicating about your expectations, communicate about your needs and desires, which plays into expectations, by all means. But like we said earlier, the needs, I think, is a big difference between men and women. Women need security, Men just have this high appetite for physical. And he doesn't want to know if his wife is enjoying it, so that is not a need of his. 

So I think, probably, what I have come to realize just working in marriage ministry, we talk to a lot of people about sex all the time. And what I came to realize, I think one of the biggest things that couples handle poorly when it comes to these differences, is a lot of husbands are not in-tune to how vulnerable a woman is during sex. 

And I never really thought about this actually, until something you said, probably, last year, Dr. Kim, is how vulnerable a woman is during sex, and it's just true. So like in Scripture, it tells us that, "The woman is the weaker vessel." And that's not to say women aren't as strong, it's not to say women aren't awesome, because it is very clear that God honors women and that women are equal to men. 

But physically, when it comes to the physical characteristics of a man and a woman, most women are physically weaker than most men, that is just true. Which is why a woman walking to her car late at night is figuring out if she gets attacked by a predator, how she's going to jab him with her keys. 

Whereas if my husband was walking to his car at night, he's thinking, "Where's my car?" Like, that's all he's thinking about, he's not even worried about it. Because it's just true women are physically weaker than men and that plays a role when it comes to sex. Even with our spouse whom we love, and hopefully trust, and hopefully feel safe with, there's still this fear factor of we're naked, that's very vulnerable, that's very intimate. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Christina: And also like, yes, if he's on top of you, or just when it comes to sex is physical. And, so, the husband being stronger, like that puts a woman at a very scary place. And I don't even think I realized that for myself that, "Oh, that is why I feel more vulnerable in the sexual situation." 

Even with my husband, whom I love and trust because I'm physically weaker. And, so, I think for men, that means you have to work really hard to make sure you're not doing anything, to make them feel pressure, to make them feel unsafe. 

Because if your wife doesn't feel safe, you're not going to have good sex as God intended it. She's not going to enjoy it or be as open as intimate as she could be, which is going to cheapen your sexual experience. So it's important that you do what it takes to acknowledge the fact that she's more vulnerable and to do something with that to make her feel safe.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, it's really well said from a woman. And I think guys, sometimes we don't realize that because we're not in that position, we're not vulnerable, really.

Christina: I think it will be hard for you to understand. 

Dr. Kim: Yeah, because we are usually bigger, we're usually stronger. I remember early in marriage Nancy said, "I need you to be more gentle." Okay, so I need to hear that because that helped her feel more safe with me, and helped build that trust. As we were developing our sexual relationship that we wanted to be good for our lifetime together. 

And, so, I think you guys would have to realize that, and I think sometimes we don't stop to think about it. Because it doesn't affect us that way, that our wives are so vulnerable in sex. And you want her to feel calm, because if she doesn't feel safe with you, she's not going to be able to let her walls down and be completely open in a sexual relationship with you. And that's what you want to give the opportunity for that to happen.

Christina: Absolutely, and I think, what we see on TV, and in culture plays a big piece of this. So usually, when we see a movie, it's like, the rough sex is always exploited as this, and the women are enjoying it. It's like, they really want rough, crazy. 

I think, obviously, I can't speak for all women. Obviously, there's going to be some exceptions to this. But I think for most women we don't want anything to do with rough, we do want it to be gentle. 

Sometimes we want passion, which means firmness, but there's a difference between firm, and strength, and roughness. And, so, men, you're seeing these movies where the men are being really rough with the women and the women are loving it. But I just don't think that most women like that. 

So, we have to be careful about that and, obviously, there's going to be some psychological things going on there if a woman has been abused, or if she's experienced something. There may be some confusion there psychologically, and where she's wanting some bondage or some roughness. 

That's a whole other thing that we're not going to get into in this episode, but I just think men think about this gentleness thing and realize that what you're seeing on TV is mostly, probably, a lie.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, and if you see something with your wife, and you think, "I wonder if she'd like that?" Ask her, and she's got to like, sometimes she going to say no. I mean, and you're right, it seems like it's portrayed that way a lot, which I don't know, Hollywood does some weird things.

Christina: They do some weird things, and I think this could even be confusing for women. So right, we see this too, so we might think, "Oh, yeah, well, that woman's enjoying it, so we might enjoy it too." 

But just think about it, think about your sexual experience with your husband. And think about the times where maybe he's been rough and analyze it. "Well, do I really like that or do I really not? Or like, where's the difference here? And just talk about it with your spouse.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, do you want to be slammed up against the wall during sex? 

Christina: And if you do fine, but I just don't think this will do, if we really think about it.

Dr. Kim: And I think we should. God gives us, "If two people together agree on something, they're really okay with it." Most of the time, I think it's going to be okay in marriage. 

Christina: Yeah. 

Dr. Kim: But, I think, there's also just when you talk about all the aspects of sex, and we talked about the spiritual partnering thing, to me, still, the best sex involves more of just compassion, passion, understanding, vulnerability, and really enjoying each other. And you don't have to have some other act to make it special or something like that.

Christina: Certainly, that's a good point.

[00:17:54] <Music>

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[00:18:44] <Music>

Christina: So how do we deal with these differences, Dr. Kim? How can we embrace them? You know, when it comes to sex drive and other things. How do we conquer these differences and use them for our good?

Dr. Kim: I think we have to talk about it. I think, again, we talk about that all the time, but it's so important. When I get couples in counseling that we'll talk, I have a couple right now, and they've never really talked about some of these things. 

And they began to talk about them in the last few weeks. You wouldn't believe the difference it is making, I think in their whole marriage, not only their sexual relation. Because I think if you're talking about sex, it's pretty easy to talk about other things, too, and so many other things they haven't talked about. So I think that communication is that.

I think you got to talk about frequency, you got to figure out what works for us as a couple and what works with the season that you're in at that time. If you got two babies in the house, frequency may change a little bit or you have to be more intentional with the sex relationship. In fact, I've had couples come up with great deals.

I think all of us early into the marriage, or we did, we wanted to be spontaneous about sex. We didn't want to schedule anything, we didn't want to figure, if we want to have sex, we have sex, that kind of stuff. 

But I think when you have kids, sometimes you have to say, "Okay, when the kids go to sleep, so we need to be intentional. It needs to be in the evening or when they're taking a nap. And so you have to think about that, talking about things like frequency together. 

And, I think, frequency, don't try to get some quota. Figure out what works for the two of you at that season in your life and then keep talking about it. And once kids get older and you want to have sex more, do it.

Christina: So what does a healthy sex life look like for a married couple? In other words, what characteristics makes up a healthy sex life in marriage?

Dr. Kim: {That’s} such a setup for naked and unashamed. 

Christina: There you go. You know Dr. Kim, was going to say it. 

Dr. Kim: It's my favorite verse. I talk all the time, I think, that gives us the picture that we want for you trust each other, where you're vulnerable with each other. When you don't hold anything back. It's like, "I trust this person enough just to be naked with them." And to let that person know everything about me. And then when you have that, I mean, when you're totally vulnerable like that, to me, that develops a healthy sex life.

I mean, it sets the groundwork for that and a healthy part is how often do we have sex? What do we enjoy in the sex relationship, talking about things together? Experimenting new things, I mean, there's some great tools we've talked about, to talk about sex. 

That's illustrated and stuff, it's done from a Christian perspective. Which I think helps a lot of people realize, "Okay, if this is Christian perspective, God really isn't a prude. Okay, we're going to get past that whole thing. And beginning to experiment together, I think, most couples end up settling in with two or three positions that are their favorites, or maybe one or two, or maybe one that's your favorite. 

But I think that whole deal, experimenting a little bit with that, enjoying each other, and taking even more time for foreplay, at times, when you've got the opportunity to do that. Enjoy special things like taking a bath together, shower together, or massage and just developing things that you enjoy together. And, so, I think if you've got that foundation of the naked and unashamed with the safety and all that kind of thing. 

Then when you talk about something, a different position, that's not like fearful or scary, and you can always say no. And I think guys need to realize that you might come up with something you think, "This is the best idea in the world, oh, my gosh, nobody's ever thought of this before. And you tell her that, and she is like, "No." It's okay to say no. You've got to stay at the comfort level of her. 

And there's plenty to do as you continue to, as she feels safer with you, I think she's going to be more open to maybe a little bit more experimentation than she was early on when she feels safe with you and trust you. And, I think, it's just such a gift God gives us it does so much for a marriage, when that's a good part of it. And you draw closer to each other, and you just have that experience together.

Christina: Yeah, that's good. And I think this stuff takes time, like you said that they're having fun, they're figuring out what works. I think it's okay if this takes time and if it changes over time. 

I think some other things are just kind of what make up a healthy sex life is like what you said the safety thing. So making sure no one feels pressure to do anything, I think that's a key part of the safety factor. Just feeling safe with one another.

I think each spouse needs to feel valued. So I don't think we should do anything sexual that would make someone either party feel devalued. I do think it's important for both wife and husband to climax on a regular basis.

You can obviously figure out between each couple is going to be really different, but figure out what that looks like. It might not be every time for both of you, it might be 75% of the time, whatever it may look like. But, at least, both of you getting orgasms on a regular basis, I think that is a key part of a healthy sex life.

I don't think you can just neglect the woman or just neglect the man, I think that's got to be something that is done. And then I think just generally wanting to please each other and working to do so, which is going to take you serving your spouse right. Because we are different, we do have different desires, our bodies are different. So taking the time to figure out how to serve your spouse in that way.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, that's all good stuff, and it is. It is a process, and I think back when we got married, 20 years old, and what our sex was like, and it probably, was very passionate. I mean, two people wanting to figure each other out. 

But then over time how we continued to learn about each other. And, so, as that happened, there was more of a depth, there was more meaning, the physical was always great. But then it becomes, I think of, you continue to work at it and you talk about it, and it grows throughout your marriage. 

And, so, it's not going to happen overnight, it takes time and every step on the way is great. I mean, what we did at 20 years old, we thought that's the best thing in the world and it was at that time. 

Then you add the other things too, it's just one of those things that's like developing an awesome marriage. The more you work on it the better it gets, and with time you just kind of keep working on it together. 

Christina: That is good.

Dr. Kim: [Inaudible 00:24:48] of when couples give up on it, because I think there's so much that happens in a marriage that's good, when you have a healthy sexual relationship.

Christina: Absolutely, it does wonders, absolutely. So what are the top barriers to men having great sex with their wives? Since we are different, we'll talk about the two different ways.

Dr. Kim: Oh, probably, our egos thinking we're supposed to know everything about it and not asking our wives questions, I think that happens a lot. I think guys think like guys and I think because of the media, we think women have the same sex drive and look at sex the same way we do.

I think we all have to fight through that battle because it's thrown at us all the time and at younger ages now than probably ever before. And, so, to realize I need to step out of myself and step into her world. To find out more about her, to talk to her about it, to understand her. And I think, to me, that's probably the biggest barrier that I see with most guys, is not taking the time to do that. 

And I think another thing, guys can be, probably, not near as self-conscious about their bodies as their wives. But I've had guys that gain weight and they feel a little self-conscious about that and some things like that, those are all easy fixes. But I think that would, for me, probably, the main thing is just really not taking the time to understand my wife, our wives.

Christina: Definitely and I do think the physical insecurities, I think that's growing for men. I think our culture for a long time was really hard on women, and it was women who were warped by these insecurities. 

I'm seeing a lot of men just really insecure about the way that they look and doing all the crazy things that women have been doing for years. Like crazy diets, some crazy exercise programs. 

Dr. Kim: I know.

Christina: I think it's growing, I think you're right.

Dr. Kim: We got too many men take off their shirts in the movies.

Christina: Yeah, just keep your clothes on. 

Dr. Kim: And if you're overweight you don't take your shirt off in a movie, if you're not ripped they don't write it in script. And, so, what we see is like, "God, how much does he work out? I can't work out like that."

Christina: Yeah, well, it's his job to work out, it's, literally, in his job description, right? I just thought of that.

Dr. Kim: Exactly and wives aren't that visual, I think we get more self-conscious about it than our wives do. 

Christina: Yeah, definitely. I think some other ways that are barriers for men to having great sex, which you can correct me because I am not a dude. But I think feeling rejected can really inhibit their sex life with their wife, if they're feeling rejected on a regular basis. I think that's just like a negative spiral thing that can really harm the sexual relationship in the marriage. 

I also think that pressure, you mentioned this a little bit, but in a different way, the pressure to be instantaneously good at sex. And that it's like as if it's some innate thing that you either have it or you don't.

I see this in all the movies and the TV shows, and stuff, it seems like this is, and even in the way secular culture talks about sex. It's either you're good at sex or you're bad at sex as if you can't change and as if you could be bad at sex. Which I believe that you can't be bad at sex because everybody's so different. You've just got to figure out how to please your spouse and be good for your spouse. 

So but I feel like there's this huge lie that's looming and a lot of pressure on men, because you never hear women being bad at sex. That's not a thing that people say, well, because that's just not something that's portrayed.

But there is this portrayal that you're either good at sex as a man or you're bad at sex as of man. And as if you can do anything about it, and I just think that's an interesting pressure that's placed on men. That can really inhibit if they're thinking they're bad at sex, and there's nothing they can do about it. I think that can really, obviously, inhibit their sex life with their wives.

Dr. Kim: Yep, absolutely, and maybe somebody has had an experience before marriage with someone and like tell them they're bad or something. I agree and when you're in a sexual relationship with your wife. 

You can develop something as you work at it together that is really special for the two of you, and I don't think you can be bad at it. I love what you said, you just got to learn about each other and make that work. 

Christina: Yeah, definitely. So what are the top barriers for women that prevents women from having great sex with their husbands? What would you say Dr. Kim?

Dr. Kim: Well, I think from my experience, it's the quality of the relationship. If Nancy and I are clicking the rest of the day, if we're close, if we're communicating, if we are those kinds of things, then I think sex relationship is very easy for her. 

If we've been arguing, fighting if I've been a jerk, something like that. I think the quality of the relationship makes a lot of difference to a woman. And I think, I've quoted Kevin Leman a lot, where he says that [Inaudible 00:29:12] the other 23 and a half hours a day, determines how good the sexual relationship is. 

And, so, as guys, we have to realize that how we treat her during the day, you can't just treat her like dirt all day and come in and expect her to just say, "Man, I've been waiting for you to come here naked all day." Like, "Where have you been?" That is not going to happen. For us, it would be I mean, she can slap your arm, kicking everything, and she comes in naked and you're going, "Let's go babe." But, guys, our wives aren't like that,

Christina: Yes, they're different by design, as we've heard. Yes, that is so true, I would definitely agree with that. I think some other barriers to women having great sex with their husbands is just distraction.

So like what you talked about earlier, a woman's mind is their greatest sexual organ, and so being able to get there mentally is a big deal. And, so, if you're distracted by a lot of things, even if you want to have sex, even if you'd really like to have an orgasm. If you can't eliminate those distractions that kind of get in your mind engaged in that, you're not going to enjoy sex, which is really hard. 

I mean, there are tons of times where I've talked to tons of women, and myself included, have experienced this before. Where it's like, you really do want to enjoy it, but you just can't even get your mind around it. And, so, it ends up not being as good as it could be. 

So I think that's a big barrier for women. That's something that they have to fight for and just think forward, but do fight for it. If you fight for it, you can achieve it. And then I think we're tired, a lot of women work really hard. 

A lot of women are the primary caregiver for their children or their kids, just even if you and your husband split it really down the middle and 50/50 for whatever reason the kids when they're sick call Mama, you know what I mean? Like they just go to Mama for some reason, there's something there. 

So I think a lot of women are tired, and that can affect things, especially, because, again, it plays into the mind thing. Well, if I'm tired it's hard for me to wake up and get excited for this. And then just the fact that the foreplay thing that it takes a while to get the woman mentally and physically in the mood to enjoy sex. Is a huge barrier if you're not willing to fight for that and if your spouse isn't willing to engage in more foreplay. 

So that's what I would say to the husbands is you've got to give your wife more foreplay and to warm her up, it's the whole crockpot. Microwave analogy, men are microwaves women are crockpots. You got to just keep it up and keep working on it for a woman.

Dr. Kim: Right, And, I think, it's easy to get frustrated. And, I think, just accepting that different issues and realizing that maybe there are some times where she may not give her mind completely there it as hard as she tries. Just because of whatever's gone, or like you said being tired and things like that. 

And, so, I think for a guy just continuing to say, "hey, is there anything..." Like what I've done in those situations, especially when Nancy was in the mom stage that kind of stuff. "Is there anything I could do different? Is there something I could do better was there anything that would help?

Most of the time she said, "No, it's me." And I said, "Okay, well, and sometimes maybe she'll say something, and I'll say, "Yeah, I'll take that." Or she could have said, "Can we just cuddle for 15 or 20 minutes and just held each other, and talked a little bit. I think that would have helped before we get into anything physical."

So I think as the wives give us some information. If there's something you think we can do that's going to help you in that, let us know. And it's okay to say, " I'm tired, can we do it in the morning? Or can we do it tomorrow night," or something like that. And I think as long as you are communicating on it, I think what really hurts a guy is if a wife does something hurtful to keep from having sex. Therefore, you really take it as rejection. 

But if Nancy would say, "I know you want that and I would love to give it, but I'm exhausted tonight and I just don't think I can be what I want to be with you in sex relationship right now. But I want to do that, let's plan it for tomorrow night." And I think 99% of the guys are going to be fine with that.

Christina: Exactly, definitely.

Dr. Kim: It gives them something to look forward to. 

Christina: And I think the key with that to not making your husband feel rejected, if you want to do that, ladies, is then you initiate it, I think that is key here. So if you're like, "I'm too tired tonight, let's do it in the morning." 

Then in the morning you better initiate, I think that is key. Because otherwise, they already feel maybe a little rejection and, so, they're not going to initiate again. And you're the one who said no, so you should be the one to pave the way. 

Because, I think, we downplay that sometimes that our husbands need to feel attractive too, and wanted, and desirable. And, so, you can do that by making sure you're the one to initiate sometimes, and, so, I think that's key in that situation.

Dr. Kim: I would too. I'm just going to throw out a number just for our wives. I just thought about this, I've never said it before, but I would say maybe as a rule try to initiate it one out of 10 times, just kind of keep that in your mind. 

Because it does mean a lot to us, when our wives initiate there's just something about it because we're the ones doing it. And guys, we don't take rejection well in anything and, so, sex and all that kind of stuff. So I think when our wives initiate, and you don't have to do a lot to initiate.

Christina: Yeah, for sure no. 

Dr. Kim: You just come in the room and you just drop your night gown, I mean, that's initiating you know.

Christina: Or just kiss him the right away, you're good to go.

Dr. Kim: It's not like you have to put a lot of effort into it. But him knowing that you're thinking about that night or you're focused on it, and you want him at that point is huge, and you let him know that.

Christina: I think you're being too easy on women, Dr. Kim, I have to challenge that a little bit. 

Dr. Kim: Am I?

Christina: Yeah, for sure. I think one out of every three times you need to initiate.

Dr. Kim: Really?

Christina: Yeah, definitely, and it can be a quickie. So it can be I'm initiating and we're trying to have a quickie, and we're literally just trying to please him. But I think, it's really important for men to feel desirable and they're okay. And for most couples, too, the men are already having to work harder to please the woman, from what I've heard and experience. 

So, I think we need to give them a little bit more than that. One out of three, all right, so there you go. You heard from, and I can say that because I'm a woman.

Dr. Kim: Exactly, and, so the guys are thinking, most guys are going, "I'll take one out of three is great, one out of 10 wonderful. So we split the difference one out of seven, I'll go"

Christina: There you go. Every couple is going to be different but yeah, I think one out of three would be fine.

Dr. Kim: And, I think, it goes back to when Nancy would initiate, but I think there's the way she would respond when I initiated made a difference too. 

Christina: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: If she really responded, it was like, "I don't care who initiated that thing." She, I know, because of where we are with it right now that she wanted to be here with them. 

Christina: Yeah.

Dr. Kim: And that's a good way to show it to your husband too.

Christina: Yeah, that's a really good point. Because there's a huge difference in the husband initiating and the wife feeling, "All right." 

Dr. Kim: I'm still reading my book.

Christina: And then the big difference between a man initiating and a woman be like, "All right, yes, let's go for it." And being clear about that in body language and everything that like, "Yes, I'm ready for this, I want this too." So that's a really good point. 

So what advice would you give to a couple if they're in a place where sex just hasn't been enjoyed in their marriage and maybe they've given up on it. Because they haven't been able to work through their differences or they're just over trying to have good sex in marriage. What would you say?

Dr. Kim: I'd say don't give up. And if you need to get help, if you need to go to the Christian counselor, or a Christian counselor that specializes in sex with couples. Getting the book like, Celebration of Sex, or Penners' book, The Gift of Sex, some of those. 

I mean, they're old standards but they're still so good, and I haven't seen anything come along really that I thought was so much better.

Christina: And the sex hasn't changed, right?

Dr. Kim: Yeah, I think figuring out what was our barrier there. I think the one I've talked about what we had to work through is that Nancy went into marriage thinking sex was wrong. Because that's what had helped her stay pure and all that kind of stuff.

So, for a woman to begin to embrace that as a God's gift. And, so, talking about that, reading things about that, well, you can begin to change that. Reading the Song of Solomon together is great because you see them have sex twice and you'd see how they treat each other. And that is in the Bible and God has approved, and He wants us to enjoy that. 

So can we identify the problem and if we can what do we do to solve it? If we're having trouble figuring out what's wrong, go to someone that can help you that's trustworthy, that can help you work through that. 

Because it's not everything in a marriage, but it's a big part. And, for me, I think it's like if the other things are good, that's the icing on the cake. I mean, it's like, "Wow, this really is something that really puts it all together, unites us in a really special way."

Christina: Yeah, that's good advice. And, I think, there are Christian sex counselors that you can go talk to about this. So I think that would be a great idea. And then maybe even just like starting fresh with each other. 

So just kind of start over or pretend that you're starting from the beginning and just really talk about your experience in the sense of like, what works? What doesn't work? What you have liked in your sex relationship or what you haven't liked in your sexual relationship so far? 

Then just kind of shake off the bad experience you've maybe had, or the discouragement that you've had. And start anew, and put that mind frame on, I think would be really helpful. 

Then, I'd say, to even just talking to a close friend that you trust, that's also married. You never know what another couple may be doing that really works for them. It may not work for you, but if finding out what works for them may be really helpful. 

I know, I'm not going to get graphic here because that's way too much information. But Dylan and I kind of stumbled upon something early on in our marriage, that really worked for us, for me to enjoy sex and for me to climax. And it's nothing crazy, it's nothing weird, it's just us using our bodies, him using his body to please me. 

But I have been amazed at how many women who I've talked to, who have had trouble figuring out how to get them to enjoy sex and for them to orgasm in marriage. And they've talked to me, and I've just kind of openly shared what we do. And they're like, "Oh, we've never tried that." And I'm like "Really? I didn't know this was weird." And it's nothing weird. You just never know what other couples may be doing that might also work for you. 

Don't put a lot of stock in that, a lot of pressure on that, if you try and it doesn't work because we are all so different. But I do think that talking about sex might just be really helpful. There might be something that could really work for you that your friend knows about. If you feel confident, that's going to be a confidence situation, and where they're not going to go around talking about it

Dr. Kim: Right, and having someone you trust and I think if we interviewed couples that had been married, like 25, 30, 40, years, that they have a good sex life. I don't think anyone would say that they didn't have to work at it. 

I think it's something you do, and especially, as we talked a little bit earlier, the different seasons of life. Some couples do great before they have kids, and then they hit this wall when they have kids because they're not intentional. "Okay we are in a different season, but how do we continue to have a great sex life through this? What's it going to look like through this season?" 

Again, going back to the communication but being intentional about it and not getting frustrated. Because she's so tired now because she has to feed the baby at night and I guess we won't have sex for whatever, and then she'll be pregnant again. And, so, maybe in 18 years we'll have sex again. 

No, work at it together in that and getting the use of resources you have. And I think with everything when you talk, especially, for women, when you talk to another woman that you trust, you realize everybody's had some struggles, everybody's had to work out something. 

Now, there may be some physical things that you have to work out. Maybe the woman is having some pain or something, don't let that keep you get the medical help you need to figure out what's wrong, and what can you do? What can your husband do different? Some things like that.

Christina: Yeah, definitely, I've talked to a lot of women who experience a lot of pain in sex, and they didn't know it wasn't normal. And not that there's anything wrong with you, but you need some help, you need to see a doctor in order-

Dr. Kim: Probably that can be taken care of. 

Christina: ...can be taken care of. Definitely, but you don't know if you don't ever share about it, which is the benefit of being, at least, a little transparent with people you trust about your sex life.

Dr. Kim: I think that's a really good point. Sometimes we accept things as normal that aren't normal. But that's all we've known and so if that's all you've experienced in sex, but it doesn't seem like it's right or feels good, or if there's some pain or something. That's not what God designed it, it was not supposed to be painful. The childbirth for a woman, I think, it says in the Bible, it's going to be painful but not sex.

Christina: Yeah, definitely. And, I think, this is the benefit of sharing and talking about things. Because I'll never forget, early on in marriage, I was talking to another friend that was married. And she mentioned, "Oh, it's a funny question, would you rather give up sex for life or would you rather give up chocolate cake?" And she was like, "I'd much rather give up sex. I would choose chocolate cake over sex." 

I was like, "Why?" Tell me more about that? I think this should be reversed, are you not enjoying sex? And she wasn't enjoying sex but she was taking that as normal. And, so, we were able to talk through some things and she was able to get some help, and get some resources that were, really, beneficial to their marriage.

But, I think, a lot of people are doing that, are settling for what they think is normal when God intended sex to be great. And, so, we have to work at it and talk about that, and figure out what's going on when it comes to situations like that.

Dr. Kim: No, I think that's a great point. Because I can just think of a number of women that I've worked in counseling, that just felt, "Well, it, really, is just for him." And, so, "I'm obedient we're having sex, but no, I'd choose the chocolate cake." 

So, God has something more for a woman that this was not just about man. It was about a husband and wife and Adam and Eve had sex, after God created them. It was for both of them, and it was for both of them to enjoy each other. And, so, just don't buy into something like that, that it's okay if a woman doesn't enjoy it.

Christina: And I think this is a great question for all the ladies to ask themselves, like, "Would I rather have my favorite..." and it doesn't have to be chocolate cake, but my favorite thing is chocolate cake. "To give up my favorite dessert or to give up sex?" And if your answer is you'd rather give up sex than your favorite dessert, then you guys need to have a conversation. Because it should not be that.

Dr. Kim: Yeah, your favorite dessert should be your husband.

Christina: Yeah, there you go. Things are getting weird, I love it. Absolutely, no, I agree. So, Dr. Kim, this has been such a great conversation. 

I think it's so important that couples do this, that they acknowledge each other's differences. That they embrace each other's differences and that they enjoy their sexual relationship as God intended it. What final piece of advice do you have for our listeners?

Dr. Kim: Oh, I think just hopeful couples see this and I love the one to 10 thing kind of rate it. Where are you right now? And what if you just take it up a notch? I mean, I want everybody to have a 10. 

If you're at three or four right now, or even a one okay, "What do we do to get at two?" And begin to talk about it. Maybe you really haven't shared about things, get help if you need to. Just don't accept sex not being a valuable, important, viable part of marriage.

Christina: Yeah, that's a good word, Dr. Kim. If you enjoyed this episode, we would love it if you would share it. Share it with a friend and share it on social media. We love seeing your support and knowing that the podcast helps you.

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Lindsay: Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. We do pray this episode has been helpful for you and your marriage. If you need anything from us, as always, you can email us at info@awesomemarriage.com, we answer every single email. Or you can always DM us on Facebook on Instagram and we'll respond to you there as well. 

Make sure you join us again next week as our next worth-repeating episode will be all about the right and wrong way to apologize. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today. 

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