Worth Repeating: Hope For the Unhappy Marriage With Special Guest Toni Niewhof
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Today we have Toni Nieuwhof. She's an author, a speaker, a family law mediator, and has spent decades of her professional life practicing law. And combining her professional career as a pharmacist and lawyer, in leadership roles for hospitals. Toni's new book is Before You Split it's out now. She also co-founded and co-hosts The Smart Family Podcast. Toni, it's so good to have a chance to be with you, meet you, and have you here today on The Awesome Marriage Podcast.
Toni: Hey, it's great to meet you, and it's absolutely my pleasure to be here today.
Dr. Kim: Carey, your husband, as we had talked earlier, was in the first ever Awesome Marriage Podcast. And, so, that was 2016 and it was just so great to meet him. But I have such respect for him and he had a really profound influence on me. And, so, it's so good to have you here with us.
Toni: Thank you.
Dr. Kim: So, when Carey and I talked, he talked about a challenging season that you two had been through, and your decision to really work on that, to build a better marriage. What is your perspective of that? How do you see that time in your guys' marriage?
Toni: Well, he didn't exaggerate it. It was a rough season in our marriage. We can joke about it now and say it was the ten-year argument. Now we can laugh, but then we definitely weren't laughing. And we just got caught in a long season of struggle that we've come to understand was multilayered. There were various things going on.
But 2020, hindsight, helps us to see things that you don't see at the time. But it really was so difficult that at one point we did wonder, "Is this what the end looks like?" And, by the grace of God, we've been able to go through a healing journey. And now on the other side, our marriage is better than we ever would have imagined. When we were married, I don't think we ever thought that marriage could be this good after so many years.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome, that's what I hope everyone can get a glimpse of that. Anything in particular that made you guys fight for it? Because I see so many couples in the counseling room and hear about couples that get to that tough spot, and they just, from my perspective a lot of times, just don't persevere through it. There's not something that was so devastating that they couldn't work through.
But it seems like it's so easy, sometimes, to give up. And I think just hearing what you were saying there, if you give up, you don't get what you and Carey were able to work through. And to be able to say that this is the best time in your marriage, that's awesome.
Toni: Mh-hmm. I've recently heard someone say that, "You don't know the size, the scope, of the reward that awaits you on the other side of not giving up." And, yes, when Carey and I got to that rough place. I remember one night, in particular, we went out for a date night. We really were exhausted. We weren't in great emotional space for a date night. But it was on the calendar and we'd made the plans, but we ended up having a blowout argument.
And it was one night where we actually did have a conversation about, "Is this it? What would happen if we did go our separate ways?" And, at that point, I think both of us realized that that wasn't really what we wanted. It was that I wanted this painful version of our marriage to be gone, and the fun and the closeness that we had at the beginning to be a part of our relationship again.
And, so, it was in moments like that, where I think both of us responded by remembering that we made a vow to each other. We made it not only to each other but also to God. And Ecclesiastes 4:12 was one of the verses that we included in our wedding ceremony. It says, "A cord of three strands is not quickly broken."
And the interpretation we took from that verse is that two of us together, we're two cords but Jesus is the third strand. And with those three strands woven together, if two of them are broken, the way Carey and I really did feel like we were disconnected. And if we were two strands, we weren't connected with each other, and we weren't even feeling like we were functioning well ourselves. So you could say our two strands were broken.
But we both did carry that belief that Jesus is holding us together. And we would both say that, if it hadn't been for that belief, I'm not sure we would have made it through. But it gave us enough to put one foot in front of the other, and double down, and just do what we could do to be obedient to what God was showing us, what a Christian counselor was telling us.
Even though the emotions were hard and there was a lot of frustration, and anger, and sadness. But we still were obedient to taking those steps to see what we could do to give it a second try, and try to put things back together. And, by the grace of God, those steps accumulated one after the other, after the other, and we did manage to transform our marriage.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it sounds like. I love the cord of three strands. I use that; I like it because I think it is. I think that was God's plan for the husband, wife, and God to be knit together. I've never really thought about the way the two broken strands, which was you and Carey, that other strand was strong, and it was good, and that gave you hope. It sounds like you could count on Him when you weren't sure you could count on each other.
Toni: Mh-hmm, we were both leaning into our faith, at that point, and not that we weren't before. I mean, we both got married, said our vows sincerely. Jumped headlong into ministry with all the zeal we thought we had wholeheartedly. But our struggles were a bit beyond us, beyond our understanding, at the time, and life was busy, and it got complicated. And, so, yes, we did find ourselves in that hard place. But, fortunately, our faith was a force that pulled us through.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. And you said a little bit about the process step by step. What did that really look like?
Toni: It definitely involved counseling. I had clues, in some of my emotional reactions I was getting triggered in our arguments with each other. And I realized that I couldn't ignore what was happening with me emotionally. My emotions were just so hard to manage and understand. So I started counseling before Carey did. And, then, eventually, the counselor recommended that we needed marriage counseling together.
And, so, we did end up going to counseling individually and then together, for the purpose of working on our marriage. And in addition to that, we both leaned into our faith. We had a small group that we're so grateful for. We had a couple of other couples who knew what was going on in our marriage. We didn't talk about it broadly, by any means. But there were a few people who did know how much we were struggling, and they encouraged us, they would pray with us. It was so important for us to have people who were pulling for our marriage.
Dr. Kim: Yes, the support of other people. I think, too, I can't remember who told me one time, I think it was Les Parrott, who said, "You know, the healthier the individuals are, the healthier the marriage would be." Which sounds simple, but I think the fact that you guys went to individual counseling, too, and saw the need for that to work on your own stuff. And to get you in a position to really work on the marriage, I think, it's a great statement.
And, of course, being a Christian counselor, I believe in counseling a lot. But there are times that God puts people like me and your counselors in your lives. They're called to help people walk through these things; and to see things that you don't see, and to give you ideas, and things like that.
Toni: Mh-hmm, absolutely. And it was important for us to have a Christian counselor. Who was educated, had experience, had a track record in helping couples because we wanted the benefit of all that training. We really did believe that a counselor would take us further faster. But we also wanted a counselor who would bring the light of Christ into our conversations. And we benefited so much from the counselors we've worked with over the years.
Dr. Kim: That's great. Yes, I think it is. And just taking that step, it's interesting that you started before, Carey. My experience, usually, is the wife starts first and I don't know why, it's always. I tell people if a husband calls the counseling center to make an appointment, I just want to celebrate. Because usually the wife takes that first step and, then, us guys, we follow along and realize, "Geez, this really wasn't that bad. In fact, my marriage is better because of it."
Toni: Mh-hmm. It makes me wonder whether some of that is the way we're socialized. I don't know whether this resonates with you. But it seems, to me, that we've had parenting practices where we weren't as encouraging for boys to show their emotions, particularly, to cry, to be upset. And, so, hey, does that have an impact?
Dr. Kim: Yes, it does. I mean, you can probably take it all the way back. Some people won't remember this, but the Marlboro Man. I mean we have these guys that were kind of, as guys, our idols. I grew up like Superman, and cowboys, and people that were your idols, and you didn't see them cry. You didn't see them do that.
So, I think, culturally, it's more difficult for us to get there. And, I think, that's one of the values that God gives us in our wives because you are more relational, you allow yourselves to feel things. And if we can embrace that, we can learn that. We may never be quite as good as our wives are at that, but we can get there. We can get pretty close to that.
Toni: Yes, as far as feelings go, that's a really interesting question. I just want to throw in a little comment here because, for me, with the experience that I went through in my childhood, I had some trauma. It was almost as if my feelings were almost turned off.
I had learned how to appear like I had feelings, how to relate to people, so that it looked like I had feelings. Because that allowed me to get by in life, and to be able to keep friends, and so on. But it was a real journey, a very long and sometimes intense journey, to start to connect with feelings again in my life. Because I lived most of my life out of my thoughts.
Dr. Kim: Sure. Well, and I think that, certainly, trauma can drive us to that, too. And that's interesting, I was thinking of two other ladies that said almost the same thing. That nobody knew they knew how to act, they became actresses. And it's interesting to see you say that, so nobody gets inside, nobody gets to know. When did you first get vulnerable with Carey? When did you feel safe enough to share your feelings with him?
Toni: Wow, I don't know that I was resistant to being vulnerable. But I, honestly, just didn't understand my own feelings to connect with them. It was very difficult for me to connect with them in the moment. I might discover how I felt about something a few days later, or six weeks, or at a later time. And I always had a much greater ability to feel sad or feel melancholic than I did to connect with love or peace or joy.
And it was my spiritual journey that I really had to question like, "Here I am following Christ; where's the love? Where's the peace? Where's the joy? I don't get this. This isn't lining up." That was one of the questions that prompted me to get into a counseling journey.
Because I recognized that I was just emotionally unhealthy, and I came to realize that I was really emotionally unprepared for marriage, and I had no idea.
Dr. Kim: I think that's what most people that have that happen, the trauma or whatever, that gets on that point, would say. They don't really, and that was your normal, and it helped you survive, I mean, it was almost a survival skill.
Toni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And, so, you get in this marriage and God says you're supposed to be like Adam and Eve, naked and ashamed, vulnerable, share everything, and it's a challenge. And just becoming aware of that, and people that are listening, that the more those things you can take care of before you get married, the better it's going to be. And if you're in marriage and you're just like you got the signals, "Hey, something's not right here." To take the time to do that. To take the time to go to counseling and figure it out.
Toni: Yes, I had a friend at the time when I was struggling and just starting out in counseling, and she said, "You know that you have to create space in your life for this." Because Carey and I were both leading in our own capacities. I was working at a local hospital; he was leading a church. We had two young boys, they had activities.
We had full lives, and we really had to be intentional about setting aside that time to go to counseling and then to do the homework, spend the time in prayer. Not that I didn't have devotion time before, but it took longer to actually dig more deeply into these areas that my counselor was directing me toward. So that I could make some meaningful progress.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's really good because we don't make time. Your friend was exactly right. We just think we're too busy. I had a lady a year ago, I guess, that they came in for counseling, great couple, and after the first session, she said, "Gosh, I wish I would have called earlier."
I said, "What do you mean?"
She said, "Well, somebody gave me your name ten years ago." And I thought, "Wow." Inside I'm thinking, "If you would have come ten years ago, you probably wouldn't be here today. You would have worked things out." So I think we do, just to take that step is so important.
Toni: Yes, I can look back on my story and I would say, if anything, I wish I had taken steps sooner, more diligently. Because there are ways that I delayed along the years. I think we would have been in a better place, at least in terms of the peace in our marriage, and the peace in our family, if I had taken those steps earlier. And even though there's an internal resistance toward doing that, it's so worth it.
Dr. Kim: Right. And even though it's painful, a lot of times then to do it, like you were saying, by going through that. As you and Carey decided to work on the marriage, it helped that process go better. Because you didn't have to go through bring your stuff into it, and Carey probably felt the same way from his perspective.
Toni: Mh-hmm. I mean, there were times when it seemed like all the issues were muddled up together, and it was just a big mess to untangle. But step by step, God doesn't want to leave us in those places. Jesus came to bring us that fullness of life, I really believe that that's true. But we need to go through the desert, sometimes. We need to go through those struggles, and there's no way to circumvent the pain if you actually want that freedom.
Dr. Kim: Amen, so well said, exactly. Nobody wants to go in the desert, but to get to the promised land you've got to do that. I think sometimes we just have to do it.
[00:17:45] < Music >
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Dr. Kim: Let's talk a little bit about the book, you had experience as a divorce lawyer. What are some common themes, patterns, that you observed that led couples to divorce?
Toni: I think they're not surprising. A lot of problems are communicating real problems. Communicating and creating an emotional safe space for each other. Misunderstandings that just escalated and led to hurt feelings. And not having conversations that would help repair or not having apologies, that messy work that you need to do to actually get through those types of conversations.
So those were almost always involved. And often it was financial stress, serious disagreements over parenting, and, then, affairs were involved, I would say 20 to 30% of the time. But an affair can be the next step out of those other core problems that I mentioned.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think so. It's interesting, and we did a survey, we do surveys a lot of the people that follow us, just to make sure we're giving them the content they want. As far as communication, this last one was far above all the rest of them. And what you're saying is so true because I really think couples I work with, when they communicate well or learn to communicate well, you solve a lot of your problems just in good communication. Does that make sense?
Toni: Yes. And part of the resistance, at the beginning, is that is this whole misunderstanding each other. Sometimes there are expectations involved in that. Sometimes there are different wiring and not understanding that we're wired completely differently from each other, and we have different approaches to resolving conflict. Sometimes those clashes lead to hard feelings, and then the hard feelings just pile up and people have a hard time getting through it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, and I'm working with a couple of couples, recently, where assumptions had played a big part in their lack of communication. They made the assumption and would not check that out, and both of them were making assumptions that weren't true.
But it's amazing once you do that, and I saw this in both of them. They have this grid now, that they passed everything through that their spouse said, based on their assumptions, which weren't true, which continued to complicate it. And once we were able to verbalize that, and then to talk about it. I said, "Anytime you have an assumption, you’ve got to ask your spouse and you've got to tell them."
Like you mentioned expectations, you've got to talk about your expectations. I mean, if you have an expectation of Carey and he doesn't know about it. And, then, he knows about it and then he doesn't do it, then that's his problem.
Toni: No, we would have those problems. I remember Carey being outside taking care of the lawn, cutting and washing the cars, and doing the outdoor thing. And, meanwhile, I'm inside doing the dishes, and breakfast, and making lunch, and getting us ready to go out for the afternoon, and parenting. And I would have all this resentment building up in me by the time he would come in. And then if he said something like, "What do you mean you're not ready? We got to go. We were supposed to be in the car five minutes ago."
Then all that resentment would come piling out and pouring out. One of the unspoken assumptions I had was that if he's not going to be around, at least, he can give me some flexibility to recognize that I've been doing all the parenting. Plus, my work in the work of getting the family read, but I wasn't talking about it. And neither of us were talking about our assumptions and our expectations, and that's a problem.
Dr. Kim: It is. Because then you get mad and you're fighting and, sometimes, you really don't know why you are fighting them. Then to take it back if there was an assumption. You knew that you were upset because he wasn't being very attentive, and wasn't being sensitive to you, and not being empathetic, and we can go to all those places.
So, yes, it's so important, the communication part of it. Well, you talked about a victim narrative, that most spouses believe their spouse was to blame for the problems. So talk about that just a little bit.
Toni: I don't think I worked with a couple where they didn't, at their core, believe that their spouse was mainly to blame for the problems they were having. And they wouldn't say that, "I'm perfect" or "I don't have any weaknesses." But their core assumption was, "If my spouse would only stop doing X or would start doing Y. If they would just listen to what I'm telling them and do it, then our marriage would be so much better."
And, so, underneath that is a victim narrative. It's a story that I am now the victim of my spouse's weaknesses. And I think having a victim narrative like that, under the surface is like putting on prescription glasses that aren't your own. And you look through lenses and all you can see are blurry images. You miss the nuances, you miss the details, and the important details that you miss are your own rules. How your own weakness is playing into this scenario that is the problem.
The solution really is to dig under the surface and see if there's a way that you are leaning too heavily into that belief that "It's my spouse's fault." And not seeing my own role. And I know I've heard people say, "Well, my spouse is 90% of the problem, 95% of the problem."
So I would say, "Okay, then, take your 5% or 10%. Don't worry about the numbers, the numbers don't matter. But just look for that small part that you are playing." And if you're not sure about it, then even pray the way King David prayed, in Psalm 139, where he said, "See if there is any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting."
Pray that God would show you the part you're playing that is offensive to your spouse, and then just own that. If you can even just apologize for that. Now, I realize that what I'm saying is not easy.
It's not easy to do that, particularly, if it's been a long process of conflict and you've got hurts piled up between you. Then it's going to be hard to be the first one to step out and make an apology to your spouse. But you have no idea how much of an influence that may actually have if you can just own your small part.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love all that. I was just thinking, maybe, if you do that out of, "Is this what God wants me to do?" And then it becomes between you and God instead of you and this spouse that you're mad at or upset at. Because, I think, in Canada where you live, or we live in the United States, people have trouble, in general, taking responsibility. I think we've just lived in that, and our culture has influenced that, and we love pointing the finger at someone else.
God has had me a few times when I'm just thinking all kinds of things about somebody in my mind. And I'm sitting there brushing my teeth and look in the mirror, and he said, "Well, I'm glad you finally looked in the mirror because this is where you need to be looking." And it's so hard for us some time to do that. But I don't think a couple really moves forward until they do that. Do you agree with that?
Toni: Oh, that resonates a 100%. When Carey and I were first starting that process of trying to work through all our struggles. And then it got worse before it got better, and we reached that place where it was the bottom. At that point, we did have to lean into our faith, into a deeper level of humility. A more open posture before God to really take our own part, our own role, in the struggle seriously, and start to double down on our efforts to turn things around.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So when you're talking to somebody and they're in that victim narrative, and you see that. What are some things that you would do to try to get them out of that?
Toni: Mh-hmm, can I give a side note and then I will answer your question?
Dr. Kim: You bet.
Toni: So the side note is when I talk about victim story or victim narrative. I just want to make it clear that I'm not talking about victim in the sense of somebody who's really been subjected to criminal behavior, to violence, to consistent abuse. In that case, we're talking about a harmful marriage as opposed to an unhappy marriage.
And, so, I just don't want there to be any confusion about what you would do next. If you're even questioning whether your marriage is harmful, then I really would encourage you to talk to somebody wise. A counselor, a pastor, a doctor. Talk to somebody about what your concerns are and why, and figure out the next steps. Because I'm very concerned about safety. I'm sure you are, too. I know this is more of the exceptional case. I just wanted to say, out loud, that if you have that question, I want you to chase it down.
Dr. Kim: I'm so glad you brought that up because that's so true. And, sometimes, people that we would consider true victims of abuse going on or things like that, sometimes, they're afraid to step out. And, so, when there is, we're talking about take care of yourself and your kids or whatever you need to do to protect yourself. I'm so glad you made that distinction.
Toni: Yes, so, to answer your question about the victim story, or narrative, that many of us who are unhappy in our marriages can be telling ourselves. It was a multifaceted process to find out my own role. I needed to pray before God. I needed to get into God's Word and let it speak to me. We did the iMarriage course that Andy Stanley had at the time. And that wasn't the only thing we did as a group in our small groups. But we also read books, we leaned into our small group and the few people who knew what was going on, we prayed with them.
In particular, our counselor was also instrumental in showing us our blind spots, what we weren't seeing, and we had to take all of that seriously. And it sounds overwhelming when you put it all together. But, honestly, I believe that when you bring these questions before God. He is going to lead you step by step, encounter by encounter, into the healing journey that you need and that your marriage needs.
Dr. Kim: So be prepared for some time and be patient with it.
Toni: Mh-hmm. But every time you see something in a new way or you get one of the baby steps right, it gives you some hope to take the next step. The journey is a battle, in a sense, but God is there, and there's also moments of joy and moments of some success along the way.
Dr. Kim: And really celebrate those as they come. I think we need that encouragement along the way.
Toni: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I have a couple, and they were in a very dark place when they started coming. But when they'd see those baby steps, they just started high-fiving each other. It was their way of celebrating. And they may be fighting again two minutes later but, at that point, they were able to see it and celebrate, which was really cool.
But I think that's so many things of trying to encourage couples to do what you're saying. Before you split take a look at it, give it a chance, don't just split easily. Do you think, too, one thing you said, I really want to go back to a little bit. You've mentioned your small group two or three times today, and the importance of having them. I think the people that we surround us with, that speak into us, during this time is very important, who we choose. Would you agree with that?
Toni: Oh, it was critical for us in the ways I've already mentioned, but also when I was caught in a negative mindset. When we were in the depths of our struggles, I remember venting to one of my friends about what went down, and our argument, and my complaints, and she listened with empathy.
But then she also reminded me about Carey's very positive qualities that I just wasn't even seeing while I was in that mindset. And she started saying things like, "Well, Carey is a loyal husband, and he is a great father, and he's a gifted leader." And she would remind me of things that I needed to be reminded of, at that point, so her friendship was critical.
I also had another friend, in that dark season, who was really encouraging me to pursue the steps of divorce. And I, fortunately, really questioned her advice. But it would have been so easy, at that point. You're very vulnerable when you're struggling with all those negative emotions, and it's very confusing to pick out your next steps. And, so, I would say to people who are really struggling to just beware the cheerleaders. That there could be people in your close circle who would really advocate for you to divorce, and be very careful about who you take advice from.
Dr. Kim: I think that's so wise. If you're in a situation that person was in your life, and they were continuing to be persistent. Would you set some boundaries there or, maybe, even "I can't be around you at this stage of my life?"
Toni: Yes, boundaries are a first great step. I ended up saying to her that that wasn't my plan, and, so, at that point, she would stop raising it. But you may have a friend who doesn't. I don't know, that's a tough question.
Dr. Kim: It is. I know it is, depending on the situation.
Toni: I don't know the complexities of the relationship.
Dr. Kim: And most of them are well meaning, I'm sure, they just want what's best for you. But to know that it's okay to set boundaries with people. Because what you said, I mean, how important that was for you. And that she honored those boundaries, it sounds like, after you set them.
Toni: Yes, unfortunately, the relationship didn't end up working out anyway, but that wasn't the primary reason. But it is really important to have a close friend or two who really do want your marriage to win. And maybe a mentoring couple who you can lean into, who have gone through a tough time themselves and made it out the other side.
Dr. Kim: Anybody around you that can give you hope, I think, it's great. I always try to encourage couples to get a mentor couple that's a stage ahead of them, because there's so much to learn there. And, usually, when I ask a couple to be a mentor couple, they go, "We don't have anything to offer." They have no idea what they have to offer. I mean, if you've been married 20 years, you've got a lot to offer somebody that's married ten years.
Toni: Yes, 100%.
Dr. Kim: So you guys fought through all this stuff, and now you're in the empty nest season. So how have you transitioned to that? And what are you enjoying about this season, with you and Carey, now?
Toni: Well, at one point, we realized that we were getting to the point where the kids were going to leave home, and we didn't have a lot of shared activities, at that point. So we started to be intentional about picking up some activities that both of us enjoyed. Which meant that we both had to bend in the other person's direction. So Carey was an avid road cyclist, at that point, and I decided to give it a try. I fell five times in my first season.
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's tough.
Toni: Fortunately, I was on gravel, not pavement.
Dr. Kim: That's nice. Yes, still, that hurts.
Toni: But, anyway, it's great now I love it, and Carey started snowshoeing with me. We just decided to pick up some shared activities. That went beyond going out for dinner, watching movies together. And it's interesting, the research shows that shared activities that have some aspect of growth to them, do help bond people closer together.
And, so, I don't think you need to wait till the empty nest stage to do this. This particular study, that I'm talking about, tested couples doing something that was new, novel, or exciting to them for 90 minutes a week, for four weeks in a row. And they measured how satisfied they were with their relationship at the beginning and then at the end of that period. And they showed a measurable improvement in how satisfied and excited they were in their relationship. So, hey, try some shared experiences because they really do help improve our intimacy.
Dr. Kim: I think that's so true. During COVID, Nancy and I started hiking, which we hadn't done in a long time, and it really did. We were finding new trails to go to, and we're doing it together and challenging each other. And, you're right, there's something about that that just bonds you together. And, of course, guys usually like activity, we love doing active things with our wives, usually.
Toni: Mh-hmm, yes, but it doesn't have to be outdoor things. It could be you try cooking a new style of cuisine. You take a picnic to a different beach. There are all kinds of novel things you can do, but you both have to be interested.
Dr. Kim: Yes, you both, at least, got to say, "We're going to go for that." We're talking about learning another language. So we're in the talking stage now, so we'll see. But I think it's something both of us have talked about. Where we live, Spanish should be the natural thing for us to learn. So we may try that before too long and see how we deal with that.
Toni: Great.
Dr. Kim: But we do it together, and that would be the fun part of it.
Toni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So couples that, and you kind of started to hit on that, couples that are nearing empty-nest time or even maybe a little before that. Or in it now and thinking, "What am I going to do?" How do you prepare for it? What do you do once you get there?
Toni: I don't feel like I'm an expert at that question. I know we had a year lead into my oldest son leaving home and I, probably, grieved for year after that. And, then, when we were looking at the same thing for my second son, I actually started grieving in advance because I knew what was coming. It was probably a year before that. People would talk to me about it at work and I'd start to tear up.
Dr. Kim: To tear up.
Toni: Yes. But I decided that I'm just going to be okay with that. I'm just going to grieve it as it comes along. But as far as our relationship goes, those waves of grief come at different times for both of us, and it was mixed emotions. We were, actually, happy to have some extra time to go out for a bike ride or go out for dinner. I mean, we enjoyed the time, but we also did really miss our kids. We just needed to give each other the space to be sad at different times and, sometimes, to just hold each other and say, "It's okay, I get it."
Dr. Kim: Yes. Because it is an adjustment, and I love what you guys did, that you let yourselves be sad. I think sometimes people try to act like it doesn't bother them or they suppress that, and that's not healthy. You've got to go through that because, again, it's a grief issue.
I mean, those kids that used to be down the hall aren't down the hall anymore, it is a grief issue. And, then, I think you have to work through that so you can fully embrace the time that the empty nest brings, which you alluded to. You have more time to do things together, and you don't have to worry about being home to cook dinner or be there for whatever.
Toni: Exactly, we can have dinner at 7 o'clock and we're not running out to something afterwards. So we enjoy the freedom.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it is. I think that's what we have enjoyed the most about it is having that freedom. And we were blessed that both of our kids ended up in Oklahoma City, so we get to see them and grandkids as well. You'll come to this point, Toni, where the kids don't matter as much, it's the grandkids that you really want to see.
I mean, I like seeing my son and daughter, but if they don't bring the grandkids when they come. It's like, "Go home and get them. Why are they not here?" And I think that Nancy and I began to see that, too, as our kids went through college, and then fell in love, and knew that they're going to have kids. And, so, you're like, "Well, that's going to be a fun stage of life to be into."
Toni: Mh-hmm, yes, we don't have that pleasure yet, but I'll embrace it when it gets here.
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, absolutely. So right now for you and Carey, and we talked earlier about you guys being busy. Obviously, you've got this new book out. What's the best thing in your marriage right now? What do you really enjoy with Carey?
Toni: Oh, wow, there's a lot that we're enjoying. I mean, as far as activities go, last year we got a canoe and Carey basically bought it for me. And he decided, "Well, okay, Toni really wants it, so I guess I'll go along for the ride." But the surprising thing was that he actually loves it, and it's even rivaling our bow rider that we have used for years and years. Now, some nights we're just as eager to get the canoe out and watch the sunset.
So we went on a canoe trip last year and Carey was such a good sport. Because it's not really his thing, but we ended up going on a trail. It was a three-day trip in the wilderness, and it was a trail that we could almost do. It was steeper, rockier, more challenging than any of us expected. We couldn't get information, really detailed information about the trail. We got just enough to be able to plot out our route. But the park offices weren't open because of COVID and they weren't taking calls. So, anyway, we did this trip and at one point we ended up capsizing.
Dr. Kim: Oh, my gosh.
Toni: So we caught the paddle just before it disappeared down the river. It's a great story now, but we made it back.
Dr. Kim: Yes, probably, but you made it back. So you camped out overnight while you were on that, and then did the canoes?
Toni: We went through a thunderstorm. We had two days of rain out of the three, but we had such a great time. It was a great adventure.
Dr. Kim: It sounds like it. I mean, especially, with COVID everything shut down. So you didn't have a lifeline anywhere really, did you? I mean the park rangers weren't, nothing was around helping.
Toni: No, we would have been taking our chances whether we would have had reception. But it wasn't a completely deserted park, so there would have been other people.
Dr. Kim: Some people around.
Toni: There would've been several hours until any kind of help arrived.
Dr. Kim: It sounds like a lot of fun though, looking back.
Toni: It was.
Dr. Kim: It's a great story to tell for sure. This has been so good. It's so good to talk to you and have you on the podcast and just connect, and talk about these things that are so important for marriages. And, hopefully, encourage people to look real hard before they make that decision to split, too.
There are so many things that could be done, and we have a God that stood at the altar with you when you took your vows that will do everything. I always tell couples, He'll move heaven and earth to make your marriage work. He just needs you to get in it with Him. Get in the boat with Him. Get in the canoe with Him.
The book is Before You Split. And I was on your website this morning, you've got a great website, I would encourage people to go to toninieuwhof.com. I enjoyed it, navigating around. It's a great website, very easy. Where else can they find you? And the book is available everywhere? Website, bookstores; where else can they find you?
Toni: Well, I'm on Instagram, and Facebook, and Twitter, under my name, Toni Nieuwhof, so pretty easy to find. If you need the spelling of my name, just look up the book Before You Split, it's easier to spell.
Dr. Kim: Thanks again, Toni. Give our best to Carey. Love him. And thank you for taking time to be with us, on the podcast today.
Toni: Hey, thank you, I'm grateful for your ministry.
Dr. Kim: Thank you.
[00:47:44] < Outro >
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