Worth Repeating: Cultivating Curiosity & Courage with Special Guest Bob Goff

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationships.

Dr. Kim: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. Today we are honored to have Bob Goff with us. Bob is a lawyer, a speaker, an author of New York Times bestselling books. He currently leads Love Does. Bob is married to his wife, Sweet Maria. She has a new book, Love Lives Here, which is about discovering what we really need. Bob writes a forward to that book. 

I think I started out reading Love Does, and then the book that Bob wrote that really impacted me was Everybody, Always. Avoiding Difficult People, Loving Everyone. That book made me look at people differently than I was looking at them. So I appreciate that, and, Bob, thank you so much for spending time and joining us on The Awesome Marriage Podcast today.

Bob: You bet. Glad to be on. I'm glad you enjoyed the book. All that time in spell check was worth it.

Dr. Kim: Isn't that the truth? Yes, well, and then Dream Big, I love too. That was the last one, I guess, that came out during COVID actually.

Bob: Yes, we've been busy getting the word out, traveling a little bit less like everyone else. But it's good because this time has been one to sit down, settle down, focus on what's most important, and try to write some words down to reflect that. Even for people that are listening that wouldn't self-describe as an author, I think we've got some things to say. And like in Deuteronomy, "When you're walking by the way, when you get up at night, think about things God's done and write those stories down."

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. I was talking to somebody, not too long ago, and they were just talking about what a good job the Israelites did of telling the story and passing it down, the legacy from generation to generation. 

Bob: Yes, no kidding.

Dr. Kim: And think we all learned a lot last year. I mean, I'm like you, I was having lunch with Nancy at home because I was home and it was like, "Wow, this is nice. I like being able to do stuff like that."

Bob: Yes, there was a million people that ended up changing their jobs last month. Just because they figured that their new life, who they've changed into, wasn't compatible with the old job that they had. And, so, I'm a big fan on changing, don't change wives but change jobs often.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think so, too, and I think people had a chance to look at what they value. As a counselor, the couples that I saw going into COVID that had good marriages seemed to really grow during that time. The couples that were struggling, some of them struggled even more. But a lot of us that really valued our marriages were able to see, "Man, spending time with wives and family is really important, and time goes so quickly."

Bob: Yes, Sweet Maria Goff really enjoyed the isolation. She didn't enjoy all the disruption and suffering that everybody's doing. But the isolation of just being here and together, and with our little posse of family that's right in her zone. It was a bigger switch for me. I'm more like Tigger, so I just want to get out and about all that. So we just threw into some things that we could both work on. We got an old camp and turned it into a retreat center, and that's been fun. 

Dr. Kim: That's cool.

Bob: We've had our head down on that for the last couple of years, so it's been really fun. So whatever your circumstances is like, find something you can throw into and find things that you have in common. I did some counseling because Maria was telling me, "Buddy, your issues have issues. You need somebody to talk to." And I learned a lot because we had more in common on the other side of it, and that's my goal. Oh, it's Acts two and four it said, "They broke bread and they had things in common." So they weren't just pounding carbs, they actually had things in common.

Dr. Kim: They really learned something out of that. Yes, I read somewhere that they described her as the be-er and you as the doer.

Bob: Yes, definitely, I think that in one of the books, she described herself is she's the string and I'm a balloon.

Dr. Kim: How long have you guys been married?

Bob: Yes, it'll be 35 years in a week. Isn't that amazing?

Dr. Kim: Yes, Isn't that amazing?

Bob: Yes, it's awesome, we're having a good time.

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes. Nancy and I have been married 50 years, and it amazes me every time I think that it's been that long, and it's been great. It's been great. It wasn't always perfect, for sure, mainly because of me, but it's been great.

Bob: I think I'm having some things that you're looking for in common, that we rounded a corner and became grandparents two years ago to our first, and then another one's going to pop out in a month or two. So, then, we don't want to act like everything is still the same because we're new creations, each of us, everybody listening. 

And, so, you don't need to be the old version of you. So I'm a big fan of quitting your job or just saying, "It was a great job when I applied for it. It's just that I moved on and the job didn't." Which makes sense, most jobs don't evolve like that. But people do evolve, that's the plan. If you're not evolving, then, that would cause me to reflect, to say, "Wow, am I stretching and growing the way that I perhaps could? Am I taking advantage of some opportunities around?" 

So maybe doing the same thing in your marriage to say, "Okay, so I've changed, and she's changed, but what remains the same?" And maybe returning to the scene of the wonderful crime like when you touch knees the first time, and you became a thing. 

Dr. Kim: Yes. 

Bob: Revelations two, "My problem is that you've forgotten your first love." So I want to just get back to our first love. What was it originally? I don't know what it was like for you guys, but the thing that attracted Maria to me was my enthusiasm. And that's also the most annoying part about me, now, 35 years later, she's like, "Dude, chill out, if you could get a puppy, just get one."

Dr. Kim: That's funny. Yes, I can remember when Nancy and I were dating at TCU, where I met her. And just watching her, when I'd let her out to go to class, just watching her walk away, that was just, "Oh, my gosh, she's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen." And I think wanting to recapture that, I've worked on that because I want to have that same awe when I look at her now that I did back then.

Bob: Yes, bingo.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So you talk about Sweet Maria, and I love the way you speak about her. You say so many wonderful things about her, you're a great encourager. Does that come natural? Is that something that you felt like you developed or God just gave you that?

Bob: Yes, I think I have the encouragement group. Some people feel like they need to be everybody's teacher, and I'm not that. Or they need to be the safety monitor; watch out for that, don't do that, be careful of. And most of my kids ran through adolescence without eyebrows because the last explosion burned them off, so I didn't feel like I was that guy. But I am pretty encouraging. I'm not always there, but I think that's my resting position.

Dr. Kim: Yes, just from what I've seen, obviously. How did that affect your kids, too? I mean, obviously, you were probably a good encourager to them also.

Bob: Well, wouldn't you say that for most of us, we're either a reflection of or reaction to the people that you grew up with? So Lindsay Goff married a guy who's really nice, he's a hydrologist. 

And she married him because she was raised by Tigger, so she is a reaction to having a guy that doesn't have any feet on the ground. He's like, "I want somebody with both feet on the ground." And she nailed it, he's a terrific guy. He's the perfect guy for her. 

I have another son who is nuts, he's not going to see 40. You'll see him flying inverted in an open cockpit biplane, over us, into a hammerhead stall. So the pear doesn't fall far from the apple tree. And, then, I have another son who's somewhere in the middle. He's the creative uber guy, but he doesn't need to be up front, he would rather be. But he's a bit of a reaction, but he's also a bit of a reflection. 

And, so, I'd say for each of our kids and for everybody listening, you just need to figure out what are you reacting to and why are you reflecting. So if you're reflecting some of the generosity and hope that you were surrounded by as a kid? Or are you the person up front looking for a bunch of validation that you didn't get when you were young?

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.

Bob: So to have that self-awareness to say, "Oh, I get what this is little insecure Bobby Goff, he's just 62 now. This is insecure now he's got a beard, and it's gray."

Dr. Kim: Well, don't you think, too, with our kids, just letting each one be who God created them to be, and not trying to change that, and not trying to change them.

Bob: Yes, I remember writing in one of the book the job of a father is to lean down behind their kids and ask them, "Who do you want to be today?"

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm, absolutely.

Bob: So I think that's what we do. We just say, "Who do you want to be?" Instead of telling people, "This is who you're going to be." Because most people don't want to be told what to do, and they don't want to be told who they are. They want to be just appreciated for who they are.

Dr. Kim: Well, what I had to realize with my kids, and I finally did, God hammered it into me, is that He had a better plan for them than I did.

Bob: Yes, well said.

Dr. Kim: And once I accepted that it doesn't matter if they're the best hitter on the baseball team, or the best volleyball player, or make straight As. It was, "Be who God created you to be." And just be there to encourage them, to guide them, and train them like God tells us to, for sure.

Bob: Yes, it comes to Philippians 2:20, it's Paul talking about Timothy, and he says, "I don't have anybody like Timothy. He's a guy who takes a genuine interest in the people around him." 

And, so, I would say that you don't need a Bible verse to be a good parent. But it doesn't hurt to know why you're doing what you're doing. And I want to just be somebody who takes a genuine interest in the people around me. 

And it's crazy but a cruel truth that, sometimes, we take a more genuine interest in the people that aren't around us, than the people that are around us all the time. So if you want to really influence the world, influence your family.

Dr. Kim: Yes, Amen to that. So let's talk about Tigger a minute, you always have these big dreams. How do you and Maria, do you always align on those big dreams? If you're going to go wherever you go, and whatever you're going to do, which your books are full of some amazing stories.

Bob: So we don't at all, we're total opposites. When they said, "The two will become one." I think she thought we were going to become her, and I'm like, "Oh, heck no." But she doesn’t want to be like me and I don't want to be like her, we want to be like Jesus. And, so, that from John 17 the idea of being one doesn't mean being the same. 

So we just delight in our differences, and I'm always off on the next adventure and we're up. Afghanistan is having some setbacks, and we've got some schools there. So that wouldn't be high on her list, but we're trying to be just one, not the same. And, so, that'll work itself out that I need to be some places she didn't want to go, and she may need to be some places I don't want to go.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Bob: But we don't feel like we're having a fight. We feel like we're living into who God made us to be.

Dr. Kim: That's really good. Talk a minute, since you mentioned Afghanistan, talk a little bit about Love Does. So people that don't know what that is all about.

Bob: Oh, yes, so I write books, I find it very tedious work, but I do it because we have schools in a bunch of different places. And, so, it's a couple in Uganda, a couple in Mogadishu, Somalia. Two more outside of Mogadishu. We've built a hospital in Iraq. We've got one built in the former capital of the Taliban, in Mazar-i-Sharīf, Afghanistan. We're building one on the Iranian border in Afghanistan. Right now, with the pull out happening, it's creating some additional problems. But I think India and Nepal. We've got a project starting in the Dominican. 

So we're just trying to be helpful, and we're just really pulling alongside the heroes in those countries. So it wouldn't be about Love Does. It's about a bunch of really go-for-it Afghan teachers that want to teach little girls how to read and write, they're the heroes in this story. 

And, so, we say, "Let's do this." And then it's helpful if dad shows up, so they're risking a bunch to do what they're doing. So having you show up just blows their minds. 

They'd be like, "Oh, my gosh." So we spend a lot of our time there. Now, that wouldn't be Maria's first pick, but, again, this oneness isn’t sameness.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that.

Bob: So find the thing that really blows your hair back, and if you could stay curious about each other and return to your first love to say, "Hey, I want to actually know why you're doing what you're doing right now. Do you know or can I change something that would be helpful to you on this adventure?"

And, so, one thing I could change is not having a bunch of people over to the house unannounced. So that would be helpful, and it's really doable. You can meet people at Arby's and just not eat because it isn't very good. Or you can go to Chick-fil-A because you eat a lot because it is, but meet at other places than our living room.

Dr. Kim: That's, probably, a wise thing.

Bob: Yes. But you would think I would have gotten the memo, early on, but it took a while [Inaudible 00:14:51] "Oh, I thought you were kidding." 

And be like, "Look at this face, I'm not kidding."

Dr. Kim: No. And it seems like we have a lot harder time getting those things than our wives. If I mentioned something to Nancy, she gets it right off. If she mentions something to me, it takes a little while for me to get it.

Bob: Yes, I just think this wonderfully elusive thing called marriage is worth all the effort we'll put into it. But it really involves two words sacrifice and commitment because if you think you're going to get this thing at a garage sale price, you're going to get surprised. 

But it'll cost, it'll be sacrificial. The kind of love that Jesus gave was sacrificial, and it involved a lot of commitment. He could have a million angels come and take everybody out. But instead He just goes, "I get the overall arc of this." And if we get away from a right view of what love is, then we'll get into a wonky version of what marriage is.

Dr. Kim: I love what you said about commitment. Because I was talking to another counselor, not too long ago, and we were just talking about how many divorces there are and how many in the first year of marriage. And he said something that was so true and interesting, I think he'd been married for 25 years, and he said, "If we'd given up the times that we could have given up, we wouldn't have what we have today." 

And I think there's something about that going through it, and going through those hard times together, and watching what God can do and does to get there. And what would you say to the people who just give up too soon?

Bob: If you just knew that you were almost there, that that would be encouragement enough. I've taken some hikes, and there's one in Africa you can go up it's Kilimanjaro, and it takes a minute or two to get to the top. That's not really the mountain climbing that feels like that should be like ice axes, and all this, it's just a really long, slow slog up to the top. But when you get to the top of the stupid volcano, there's a sign and it says, "Kilimanjaro". 

But the crazy part is that's not the summit. And we all have to decide are we going to say, "Close enough, I'm at the top of the stupid volcano. I made it close enough, let's take the picture." Or after 72 miles of hiking, do you want to go the next half mile? And it's usually that last half mile that's the hard one to say like, "I said I had these ambitions about what I wanted things to be like. I'm close enough, can we just call it good, take a picture at the top, and start heading down?" 

Or do you want to go the extra half mile? And that would be the one we're reminding yourself of sacrifice and commitment. You don't have any more bragging rights, there's no bigger sign half mile down because you made it. But I would say, do you want to look like you have an awesome marriage or do you want to have an awesome marriage?

Dr. Kim: That's good.

Bob: I haven't met a lot of people that are married, to say, "Honey, you've been the best roommate I've ever had." Nobody is aiming for that, but that's where a lot of people are arriving. And, so, you're just half a mile away from getting there and it'll be a long half mile because you're probably worn out. But I'd say, I don't know, why not get to the top? You're this close. You're already married, you already have some kids. You've accumulated some things, including some woundedness but to say, "Let's just go the next half mile and see what happens."

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. So you have so many things that you pursued. How do you decide what to pursue and how do you go about pursuing them?

Bob: Yes, I've got 33 things I'm looking across the room, at a board. I don't have 34 and I don't have 31. I have 33 things I'm doing. And the difference between me and some people is I know the 33 things I'm doing. And it's not big because there's a Bible verse, I'm sure there's a Psalm 33. But it just happens to be the number of things that I'm doing. So I have a pretty clear... Well, I'm a pretty spontaneous guy. I'm spontaneous, but I have a direction. 

I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I'd be pretty hesitant to expand to 34 and I'd be pretty reticent to limit it to 32 because these are really 33 things I'm doing. And, so, as to each of those, I would just say if you're stuck in traffic or pulled over to the side of the road, I'll just say list your things. Three, seven, it doesn't matter, 33 isn't some winning number. 

It's, probably, at the outside edge of what would make sense, like your capacity of anybody to actually tend to it. But try to just say, "Is there anything I need to do on number 17?" I'd look at that for a second, hover over it. So why not do that with your kids? Hover over your marriage and your life, but then drill down and say, "Okay, kid number three, is there something that, uniquely, only I can do for them?" Because if they need a ride somewhere they can get Uber to do it. But to say like, "What's something that only I can, uniquely, bring to them."

In your marriage, hover over that and say, "What's something, uniquely, only I can do." Including taking out the garbage. It's Monday, so it's trash day, and I'm that guy. I'm garbage boy and I love it. Nobody asked me to, I just love it. Somehow we just navigated that. 

One beautiful thing about COVID I found out I can wash a dish. It'd been 32 years had gone by and I hadn't done much of that. And I realized I'm home all the time, I could grab a couple of these plates, and there's a machine that, actually, is under the counter and you put them in. And, then, a little while later, you take them out, they're warm. So all you guys listening.

So you can find a little bit more game than you had before. So I'm just trying to have a little bit more game than I had before in these acts of service. I don't want to be a good roommate I want to be a good husband. And there's a lot of people who are settling for being a good roommate. And I just say you're almost to the summit, man, just push on. You're half a mile from there.

Dr. Kim: Yes, well, I think people look at you, and 33 things, and all the stuff that you do, and all the dreams and things you've pursued. So what would you say to a guy that says, "Well, it would be easier to love if life was more exciting?"

Bob: Yes, probably, I agree. But I don't know what mountain climb are you trying to climb? What do you want to be remembered for? Think about that. Are you on this hedonistic bender? And I'm all for excitement, I'm that guy. I got a skydiving license. If I had a free hour and a half, I'd just jump out of a plane because I could, it'd just be fun. It's really a thrill. 

If you ever have writers' block, that's the number one thing I say to these young writers. I'm like, "Oh, get your skydiving license, because you will be awake or dead." One of those two will happen. You're going to be so unblocked and it just takes about 90 seconds. 

So I think some people are filling a vacuum they have in their life with another adventure or more of this, and hanging out with the boys, and all that. And that's fine, if that is getting you pointed towards things that are going to outlast you. But some of these things are just deferral, wrapped up, looking like a bunch of golf clubs, and I'm not throwing golf under the bus. It's not my jam, but my Mazel tov top, if that's for you, swing away. 

But what you might be deferring is some other stuff. It's easier to navigate the pressures of a job that doesn't suit you anymore, and find a little bit of rest in taking a long walk and that's awesome. So, definitely, go do that, keep doing it. 

But to say are there things I'm deferring that I could just address right now? And the first thing is you've got to spot it, so some issue spotting. So you got to see it, so that you can, then, understand it, so you can do something about it. 

So if you don't see your insecurities, this is little Bobby Goff afraid that he'll be rejected. So I see that, I'm not camping out there. I'm just like, "This is little Bobby Goff afraid he'll be." And, then, I can understand why is that guy the fun guy up on the stage, trying to make everybody have a great time? Oh, because he's terrified that he'll be rejected. And, so, what I'm trying to say is you don't have control over me. 

And, so, he goes, "Oh, wow, then, have you become a caricature of who really God has made you?" Are you so dealing with some of the past stuff that you haven't understood it? Because once we understand it, then, you can do something. Right after this verse that so many people are familiar with of, "Be anxious for nothing, but with prayer and petition make your request known to God." But this is a God who says, "I know it before you ask." 

I think He wants to make it known to us. Like, "I'm actually terribly insecure." And, so, what I need is I'm replacing the conversations I could have with the person I'm married to, with a whole bunch of shallow conversations with a bunch of guys I'm blowing out with. Just see it so you can understand it. Bring that to Jesus and say, "Can you help me fix that?"

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good.

Bob: And, then, don't keep it, don't be like a snorkeler. Snorkelers stay up in the top two feet of the water and look down at the fish. Be a shipwreck diver, go actually down deep. And I know that's where the sharks are too, but that's where the gold is. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly.

Bob: So I just want you to pick your metaphor, but going deeper is better.

Dr. Kim: Yes, what about somebody that might be listening and just doesn't feel like they really have any dreams or maybe they feel like their dreams are too big. What would you say to them?

Bob: Well, two different things. The one that doesn't have any dreams at all, I would give you an injection of curiosity. I just become more curious. More curious about your surroundings, more curious about everything. Grow a cucumber and just be bedazzled by seeing how much longer that thing is every day. Go take skydiving lessons, I don't know, go climb something. 

But I would be curious. I'd be curious about the people who live under your roof first. I'd be curious about the people that are surrounding you. I think some of the people that look a little older than their chronological age, I think they just stop being curious. 

And then what happens, you end up looking really old. You can be a curmudgeon at 40 because you just weren't curious about anything anymore. You thought you had it all figured out, not realizing that you don't. 

And, so, be curious about people, and not just the nice ones. We have a couple of friends in common, and I wouldn't just focus on the ones that are easy. There are a couple of friends that come to mind that are low hanging fruit. 

I mean, everybody likes them, but you just reach up a little higher in the tree and say, "What about somebody that's a little bit more prickly? Somebody that's a little bit more difficult?" And if you found some courage there, maybe, you'd find courage to have some deeper conversations with the people that are in your family, that are living under your roof.

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm, I think that's why everybody always hit me as much as it did. Because I think there were some people that were higher up on that tree. That I was just not taking time to get to know them or investing in them just a little bit. What I found I was really missing out on some things, on some people. And they didn't all turn out great. It's not like I'm best buddies with all of them, but I value that experience and I think I was passing those by.

Bob: Yes, maybe, for your listeners, just think of what's one courageous thing, courageous for you not courageous for somebody else. What's one courageous thing you can do today? Might be a courageous conversation. It might be something big and deep. It might just be something where you're just expressing an interest with somebody. 

A courageous conversation you can have with a co-worker or a soon-to-be ex-boss. You know what, "I'm out of here." But don't be mean, just be resolute to say, "I've changed and what a neat opportunity to have spent some time here and I'm going to go explore some other things. I don't know how it'll work out." But that's just such a humble, beautiful, way to usher in the next version of you. And if we're all new creations, then, we need to get back to changing. Because if we're just always the same then there's nothing new about that.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that, what you said a while ago, about just continuing to know the people in your household. I think, it's been quite a while now, that I guess I thought I could get everything Nancy down pat, and I'd know everything about her. And God showed me, "You're not going to learn everything about her in this lifetime because she is woman that changes, and grows, and is curious, and does things." 

And when I accepted that, it made life more fun in our marriage. Because it's always like "I don't know what I'll get when we get up the next morning, what I'm going to find. She may be off to something else."

Bob: Yes, and ask questions that don't feel like so contrived. Just say, "Hey, tell me about you in a year. So if I met you in a year, tell me how things would be the same and what things would be different." 

And they go, "Oh, wow, well, I would have written that book. It'd be sitting on the shelf right over there."

Say like, "Oh, wow, tell me about that. What would that book be named?" So just taking that interest. "So tell me you in ten years?"

I'm 62, "Tell me about Bob at 72." I hope I have a hundred grandkids or the closest number to that. And, so, to say what I want to be is a fun grandpa. And, so, I'd say, "Well, so what are you doing now that's helped you get ready to meet that guy." So he can really show up. So if you, in a year, is a little bit less stressed out because of your job that's dogging you. Then say, "What do you think you should do now?"

I don't know, get a Headhunter resume, quit your job, it only takes two words, "I quit."

Dr. Kim: And you're done.

Bob: And done. Or say in 10 years, to say you might have some financial goals and that's terrific, that can be one part of it. But I would say instead of career, let's talk about character. Say, "I want to be a more patient guy."

"I want to be a little bit more chilled. I still want to be super high-functioning chill guy, but I'm working on patience."

So if somebody is going slow, then, I'm just working on being patient. Some of my good friends, in the South, they talk a little bit slower. Their cadence is just, "Well, I got a big old truck, and then my dog got away." And I'm like, "Just get to it." So what I'm doing now is I'm just trying to delight. I start speaking a little slower. And, so, delighting in that instead of reacting to that.

Dr. Kim: And just saying, "Speed up."

Bob: And it just helps me know because I know who it is I'm trying to be. And, right now, I make coffee nervous, I'm like, "Ah". And I'm just trying to chill out a little bit and for my own benefit because Maria says, "Dude, you are pretty tightly wound."

Dr. Kim: And she should know better than anyone, right?

Bob: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So what would you say to a couple that says, "Hey, we want to dream together?" How would you counsel them?

Bob: Yes, I would say, the subtitle of this book, Dream Big, is Know What You Want, Why You Want It, and What You’re Going to Do About It. So a great way to do that is not have it be brain candy, but know what you want. Like, "Hey, this is what I want."

And you can say, "I want to rock in marriage." And, then, say, "So why do you want it?"

And, so, one, "It sounds like a really good idea to me." It can be as vague as that. Or you could say, "Oh, I want to break this generational cycle." That I can look back in the generations that have happened, and I don't know the full story behind it. But it seemed like we were trending, as I climb on the family tree I just see some wonky stuff and say, "I've decided we're going to be gen-one, and we're cutting down that tree and going to make something a little bit more useful out of it."

And it might be just the size of a coaster, once you cut out all the wonky stuff. And you'd be like, "That's the wood we've got to deal with." And then just say, "What am I going to do about it?"

And get super intentional to say, "Okay, we're going to unstring the bow here." I've got somebody that was teaching me how to shoot these authentic bow and arrows, the wood ones. They said if you leave the bow strung, and it's always under tension like that, when you go to shoot the arrow the bow will snap. So what you do is you unstring it and you leave it in the corner until you're ready to use it. 

So to say, "Once a quarter, once a year, once whatever we're going to unstring the bow and bring in a speaker." Like have you come, have somebody that they trust, a voice that's important. Say, "We're going to meet as a family. We're going to have a person come in and talk to us about generational transfer of wealth, maybe, generational transfer of values, as well." How do we take the most important stuff and pass that down? 

You pick. You curate the event, but your kids will dig it. Your wife will freak out that you showed that kind of initiative, guys, just do that. Take your rightful place and don't say, "I'm the boss." Be the servant. Like, say, "How can I serve this family? What do they need?" And, then, "How can we get there together?"

Dr. Kim: Well, and I think you'll find that your wife is your biggest cheerleader when we do that, don't you?

Bob: Wouldn't you think? Yes.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's what she wants us to do. Anything that you feel holds people back. So they get the idea and they think we should do this. Is there anything that blocks them that you see or gets in the way of pursuing that dream, then?

Bob: Yes, sometimes, just the fear of failure. You look back at all the smoke rising from the last time you tried something big and audacious, and it didn't work out. And, so, you're bummed out about that. So I would just think like driving your car, every time I look at the rear view mirror, I think, "That's for combing your hair. I'm not looking backwards." That doesn't make for good driving habits. 

But to say, "Okay, I'm looking forward. I know that didn't go as well as I expected, but, gosh, I've done so many things that just didn't work out. I'm going to be informed by that. That I'm not going to be afraid of that."

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. And I think, too, when we have something like that, and we pray about it, and you feel like you're using the gifts God's given you, sometimes, just trusting Him and taking that first step, don't you? I mean, just get out there and do it.

Bob: Yes, totally. Yes, fail trying, don't fail watching.

Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly. What are you and Maria, what are you loving about your marriage with her today?

Bob: Well, I love seeing her in this new role as a grandma. She's awfully good at it, and creating the same safe place for our grandkids that she created for our kids. So we've got just one room away from a bunch of grandkids running around, and our kids are running around and all that. So we felt like, in many ways, we were going to be gen-one. We had this idea of what it would look like. So seeing her pull that off now and deliver on the promise, it's been really fun. I think that's what I like the most about her.

Dr. Kim: That's cool. Well, if I asked Maria that, Sweet Maria, what would she say about you?

Bob: Well, we had a home that we spent 20 years building, way out in the bush, and then it burnt to the ground. Which we were so sad to see that happen. But, then, we rebuilt it and that took a minute, actually, four and a half years. I got 150-foot crane, it just started swinging logs. 

So four years later that thing was built and it was time to pick out the marble for the top. And we went to this slab place and we saw all these beautiful slabs, and I saw one that Maria would never let us put in this house, but it was so beautiful and had this big orange swirl through it. And I was like, "Aww, that thing's art." and the guy at the slab place said, you know what makes that most unique is also its weakest point. 

And, so, I would say that applies to people as well. So what makes me unique would be my enthusiasm, enjoying all that. But also my weakest point is that if that isn't engaged, if that doesn't go anywhere, if that falls flat, then it's like, "Ah!" that ends up being my status point.

So we've tried, as I said, many things in different countries. And most of them, well, I think all the countries are in some type of civil war. And, so, when it doesn't work my weak point is like rats. However, I want to fail trying and I know, I'm clear-eyed, these things feel impossible. 

That's why people don't open schools in some of these places. But I want to just stay at it. I want to just remember why I started, and I'd say Maria would say that's both a strength and a weakness. She's pretty good at remembering why I started, and then when it doesn't work, I'm like, "Oh, rats." 

But it doesn't seem to get me off the scent the way it does some people. They're like, "Well, God doesn't want me to do that." Or a ladybug lands on their nose and thinks it's a message. And my faith is just so much more steak and potatoes. I feel like if He wants to get my attention, He'll drop a piano on me.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and He knows that well.

Bob: No kidding.

Dr. Kim: Exactly. This has been great. It's been so much fun to talk to you and spend time.

Bob: Thanks for having me, good stuff.

Dr. Kim: People can find you at bobgoff.com. I just signed up for a thing that you have weekly that I think is great, I just started doing that. So there's some neat things all over your website that are so cool. Maria's new book is Love Lives Here and Bob's books are available everywhere. Thank you so much for taking time to stay on The Awesome Marriage Podcast.

Bob: Great being with you and I hope your listeners will find a wide spot in the road, and then just say, "I don't want to just agree..." If there was something that you said, for instance, that resonated with them. "I don't want to just agree with that. I want to actually do something about it." And that's where it gets good.

Dr. Kim: Yes, Love Does.

Bob: Hey, thanks for making the time, have a great day.

Dr. Kim: You, too, thanks.

Bob: I'll see you.

[00:37:52] < Outro >

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