Learning to Work as a Team | Ep. 566

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationships.

We talk to a lot of couples, here at Awesome Marriage, who don't know what makes them a great team. If you don't know what makes you a great team, how can you operate as one? It does take intentionality to tap into all that God has waiting for you, in the gift of your marriage. So today we are talking about leaning into what makes you a uniquely gifted team with your spouse, in your marriage. So, Dr. Kim, it seems like God always seems to pair people who are complete opposites. Is it true or is this just a stereotype? What do you think?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think it's true. Just because of counseling couples for as long as I have, I've never had two people that came in that were just alike. I mean, they're just different. I was thinking one time, I was talking to a couple, and I said, "If you guys were just alike you'd probably be bored." Because you don't grow, we're different by design, and all those kinds of things. 

And, so, where we get in trouble in marriage is if we're not willing to embrace those differences. Because we are going to have those differences, we are going to think differently, personalities are going to be a little different. You're going to think, "Why in the world is he or she doing that, or thinking that, or acting like that." And instead of going, "You need to change." It's like, " Okay, what's the value? What does that bring to the marriage?"

I got a couple I just thought of, that he's go, go, go, all the time, and she will go. But she likes a little more relaxed. And, so, watching them go through that whole deal of figuring that out, and "No, we can't go, go, all the time, and there is some joy in relaxing and being quiet." And the one who is on the other side of that, there is fun in going. 

And, so, just something simple like that, you could dig in and just really have a lot of fights about it. But when you begin, "Okay, how do we make this work for both of us? How do we learn from each other? How do I benefit from this because of who you are?" 

Then it changes that around because you're going to be. And it's interesting when, I do pre-marital a lot, couples tell me they got engaged, it's like "We were so much alike." And they are, that's what attracted you. But you got to realize there's going to be a lot of things that you're not just alike on, and that's okay.

Lindsay: Yes, it is funny because we've gotten to do a lot of premarital, too, since Brian is a pastor, so you just can see that. They see the shared perspective or the shared value, the shared end result, but the way they would get there is totally different, like you're describing. 

One wants to be busy and do a ton of stuff, the other one does not, and it's a real thing. Because the perspective will quickly shift when you're sharing the same schedule, the same household, all that stuff.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And even how you define a great marriage. How do you define an awesome marriage? And does he define it the same way you do? Do you define it the same way she does? All those things that, sometimes, we take a lot of it for granted. And that's pretty normal, when you're dating because you're infatuated, and you're excited, and you're excited about the wedding, and getting married, and all that stuff. 

But it's when all that settles down, and you start doing life together and you're living in the same house. That's when you realize, "Oh, we are different in a lot of ways." One of our big deal was I used a towel a day, I always, my whole life. I just take a shower, drop one on the floor. My mom would pick it up or in the fraternity house, it was just it going in a deal. And, so, Nancy was just looking at me after about four days and thinking, "Do you just use your towel one time?"

I said, "Yes, what about you?"

She said, "Well, I use it more than one time."

And, so, just those little things like that, that we didn't fight over that at all. In fact, I said, "Sure, that's fine." It wasn't a big deal for me, but I guess it could have been. I could have been telling her, "My mom did it and you need to be like mom." Which would be probably the worst thing to say to your newlywed bride, at all. But, yes, it's just things like that and learning to embrace those, and choosing your battles well, all those things that we talk about a lot.

Lindsay: Yes, that's very true. So what are some of the other common areas? I mean, I've never heard anybody else have the same towel compromise you guys have. But I'm sure plenty of people have. But what are some other areas?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I don't think anybody else has. I guess my mom was very unique in that.

Lindsay: I just think she was the most patient, she must have done so much laundry.

Dr. Kim: Oh, my gosh, she was so patient in that. Now, if I think if it bothered her, she would have said something, and maybe that's what her mom did. I never thought about that. But, probably, that's just normal, something like that. So I also see couples, one of the things that I see all the time is not just taking the time or being willing to listen to each other, and to really listen. There's a difference between just hearing what someone said and really listening to what they're saying. 

And, so, I think that that is something that couples have a lot with. And it goes with our culture a lot of just all the distractions. It also, sometimes, goes with not valuing the differences or valuing what your spouse is saying. 

And, so, one of the most important things that we can work on, as a couple, is if something is important to Nancy, it needs to be important to me. That may not be on the same level, but I've got to acknowledge that. I can't just say that's stupid or "What in the world are you thinking bad for?"

And, so, when we begin to do that, "Okay, if it is important to them, I need to make it important to me." And I tell couples, all the time, in counseling that may not make sense to you, but it does to her or it does to him. So I want you to value that and come alongside them in it. So that would be one. 

I think another one I see is not being really willing to compromise. Sometimes we live in a culture that's so me-centered and we've been told that a lot, over the last years, that compromise seems, to some people, as giving in or defeat, as opposed to seeing that as, "No, that's how you make a relationship work." That's how big business deals usually happen, when somebody's made a compromise. 

Marriage happens well, when you're willing to compromise. You're not going to get your way all the time. But it doesn't have to be a win/lose. It can be, "Okay, let's do it this way." And it works for both of you, those kind of things. 

Not putting God first, I think, always, there's just a difference in the couples that I see, that finally get that. And, so, they're praying together. They're really seeking God in their marriage. When you do that, it makes such a difference, and it's just something that is hard to do consistently. People get distractions and other things. And, so, you have to be very intentional about that. 

And, then, the other thing that I see and it's always been there. I've just seen it a little more since the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic, is really not being as kind or empathetic with each other. I think for some couples, and I'm not sure how much impact the pandemic had on it, but I think it did. Talking to other counselors, I think, they're seeing some things. 

I talked to a school teacher the other day, and he was retiring, but he taught high school. And he was just saying how he had seen that in his kids coming back after COVID. So just not taking the time to look at it from your spouse's point of view, not putting yourself in their shoes, and really the whole word of kindness, being kind to your spouse. You don't have to say snarky remarks. You don't have to say cutting remarks. You don't have to roll your eyes at them, you really don't.

Lindsay: You really don't.

Dr. Kim: I mean, what does that accomplish in the big picture? Instead of just being kind and saying, and it's okay, sometimes Nancy will say something. And I will say, "I don't get that, but you do, and so let's go." 

Or, "Help me understand that." That's a great thing to say to your spouse. Instead of just saying, "That's stupid." Just say, "Okay, I really don't get that. Help me understand that." And most of the time your spouse can be willing to share that with you. But when you do that, you've got to listen. It goes back to what I said at first, you got to listen to your spouse.

Lindsay: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So those would be the things where I see couples, as I was thinking through that this week, that they really struggle working together as a team on. And that really impacts their marriage in a negative way if they don't do that.

Lindsay: Yes, you're right and I've seen a lot of that, too. We've just talked about that in our marriage, is just we assume this is how I think it should be done, so that's how it should be done. And it's just not that cut and dried. I mean, our approach can be totally different and that doesn't make it wrong. I mean, there would be times that things can be right and wrong, obviously. But a lot of things we're talking about are like, "How are we going to get this budget taken care of?"

"How are we going to get this communication?"

"How are we going to get these kids schooled?" All these things can feel so right/wrong and they're really usually not right/wrong. And, so, I think that I've seen a lot of that with spouses, with people we've interacted with and with us. Where it's like, "I don't really want to listen to you because I just think your way is not as good as mine." And I think that, culturally, you're right, there's a big push. 

And, I mean, here, where we are in America, it's going to be hard to avoid that because everything here is so independence-focused. And it's so like, "Go do your own thing." And that's just how we were built. But it's not really effective in a marriage partnership at all.

Dr. Kim: No, and selfishness has always been, probably, the number one problem in marriage forever. But I think it's just when you live in a culture that's a little more selfish and really honors that, in some way, of taking care, "It's okay to do this." Then that bleeds over into marriage, and that's where marriages struggle, for sure.

Lindsay: I think so, yes, I think that's huge, I really do. 

[00:10:31] < Music >

Announcer: Are you and your spouse functioning as a winning team or as a pair of frenemies? Well, we believe that God created something unique when he brought the two of you together. And that together you get to discover the unique purpose He has for the two of you. Yet, so many couples struggle to work together as a team.

We know it, we've lived it, and we hear it from couples all the time. There's so much temptation to discount each other's differences and try to change each other. Rather than learn to work together really well.

So that's why we created The Team You and Me: Guide to Approaching Your Marriage as a Team. To help you learn and discern how God has uniquely gifted you and your spouse, both, individually and together. And how you can work as a team, for more fulfillment and purpose in your marriage. To the glory of God and for the benefit of the world around you. 

This workbook contains 16 daily challenges to help you create a unified vision, grow your marriage's legacy, build each other up, communicate effectively as a team, celebrate your strengths, and help each other in your weaknesses. Plus, have fun in the process. There is so much to be gained when you work well together. From more peace in your home to more purpose in your life together. Go to awesomemarriage.com or use the link in our show notes to grab The Team, You and Me Workbook and take on the challenge today.

[00:11:52] < Music >

Lindsay: Okay, let's talk a little bit more about creative solutions. Because, like we were saying, most things are not one right way, one wrong way. But we do tend to think about it that way. So how do we make that perspective shift?

Dr. Kim: I think you always have to think of the marriage as the thing that's got to win. If Nancy and I are disagreeing on something or a different perspective on things. And if I feel, "Well, she won". Or if she feels like I won, your marriage is going to lose. And, so, one of you loses, the marriage loses, and that's just not a win in any place at all. 

And, so, creating solutions would be; as a team, we look at the problem together, we ask God in. We look at solutions together, and we solve the problem together, and are willing to compromise things we've talked about. So you've just got to begin to look at it as your marriage needs to always win. And if you keep that perspective, then, the things that you do, "Okay, we're at odds on this. How do we make our marriage win?" 

As opposed to how we use, Nancy and I have done it a lot, other couples do it, "How do I build my case so I win? Because I really am right and she really is wrong and, seriously, she's got to see it my way." And, so, you come up with all these things to do that. We didn't fight over how to load the dishwasher for years, but we both did it different. And I would see her rearranging it a little when I did. Finally, and it hadn't been that long ago, in the last ten years, I said, "Would you rather I just leave my dishes in the sink and let you load the dishwasher?"

She goes, "Yes, please do that."

"Okay, I will." So that's it, so we don't fight over that. 

Lindsay: That is a creative solution because that's something that you have to agree on. Everyone can't just start leaving their dishes, but you did agree and that works, that's awesome. 

Dr. Kim: That's right, exactly, and they're not there very long, so it's funny. It's usually just my breakfast dishes and then when she gets breakfast, she takes care of them.

Lindsay: The right way, obviously.

Dr. Kim: And I don't, honestly, see much difference in the way the dishes look coming out of the dishwasher. But, obviously, she does so that's it.

Lindsay: Yes, those are truly the things that can bring so much tension, and they just don't need to.

Dr. Kim: I know, and it is, I think, we don't realize how much impact our family of origin had on us growing up. And in so many ways, that you're just not aware of the way your mom did something, your dad did something, and that was just your normal. And if it worked, then, you're thinking, "Well, is that the right way to do it?" Did it always work for your parents, too? Really? I can't believe your mom's way worked because my mom's way worked. Now, what do we do?

Lindsay: Yes, there can be two ways to do it.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Lindsay: So that example, loading the dishwasher, although, I have seen a lot of couples fight over things like that. I have done it. I've reloaded the dishes the right way. And, so has Brian - we both have. So that issue is important, in a sense, because it can be tense, but also other things. 

I feel like what we want to get to, today, is couples finding ways to really work together in ways that can produce some great results that they couldn't achieve alone. Because I do think that's one really unique benefit of marriage and, especially, a Christian marriage, is that we have two people who God has uniquely gifted, and given a unique strengths and weaknesses. 

And, so, together, we actually have the strengths of two people, and can cover the weaknesses and all of that. So, I think that's a really beautiful thing that is illustrated in Ecclesiastes with the "Cord of three strands, is not easily broken." And they can help one another up. So let's start learning strengths and weaknesses. How can couples do that and why should they?

Dr. Kim: I just think God, it's just so interesting, and I don't think I've ever counseled a couple where I haven't seen this. That one has a strength in one area where the spouse has a weakness. And where the other spouse has a weakness, the other has a strength and, sometimes, we don't see that, embrace it. 

But God, really, created us that way so we could learn to rely on each other. And, so, that those strengths and weaknesses could complement each other. And, then, we learn and grow together, and it's kind of iron sharpens iron deal. And, like you just said, with Ecclesiastes 4:12, it's that "A cord of three strands" that we're stronger together. 

And, so, the way we do that is asking God to help us recognize the strengths in our spouse and in ourselves, and also to recognize the weaknesses. And as you do that, and maybe just talk about it, "So what strengths do you feel like you have?" And, then, you may be able to say, "I'm not really good in that, I'm so glad you are." And you all can do the same thing with the areas that you feel you're weak in. And as you do that, you're going to see that we complement each other pretty well, and God really didn't make a mistake when he put us together.

But God puts us together, but He also wants us to work at it, too. I mean, He could just zap us and have all these things, "Okay, I love your differences, I love your strength, I love your weaknesses." All that stuff. But there's so much value in learning to find those, and to value those, and to see how those work together. 

And, so, a good example, too, is that couples get to, probably, if they haven't had an issue before when they have kids. How do we parent? Most of us didn't come from homes where we were parented exactly alike. Now, if one has had bad experiences growing up, some bad things happened. Then they're going to probably lean more toward, "Okay, how did your parents do it? Oh, that sounds a lot better than my parents did."

But if you both grow up in homes that were pretty good, growing up. You're going to think, "Well, we really need to do it this way." Instead of saying, "How do we do it with our kids?" And then realizing, you and I've talked about this before, I think on the podcast, how each child is so different. So it's not like you have parenting plan A and you put it over all your kids. You have your goals that you have for each child, and things you want them to do. But how you get there can be very different depending on the child. 

And, so, that's an area where you can really look at your strengths and weaknesses. "Okay, you had so much influence on this child because you guys related well. You really were able to do that. I'm at a loss with this child. Well, I think your strengths here would really make a difference at this child."

And, so, you begin to work together, and that's one of those things if you learn to do that together, in the early years of your kids. Then, when you get to some of the more critical years, probably, the teenage years, you're on the same page. And you're able to show the kids you're on the same page and that's huge, and that's a really good example of seeing your strengths and weaknesses really work together.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's really good. Yes, it reminds me of one thing that we did when our kids were first born. When we first had our first child, we were just at a loss to deal with this no-sleep thing. We couldn't figure it out. 

But we realized that the time of night when I would sleep like a rock and I wouldn't even wake up is when Brian would be more of a light sleeper, and he would get up. So we would trade off. It was if it's from bedtime to, maybe, three, I would wake up just naturally and hear her cry, and go get her. And then if it's after like three or four it's his turn, and then he'd get up with her in the morning. 

And, so, we shifted off in that because naturally that was, physically, we had deep sleep at different times. So when we figured out like, "Oh, we can tag team this and we get better sleep that way, we both do." And it's working with how God already made us. And it's interesting because before that, that was a real pain point when we got married that we had different energy. I was more of a night owl; he was more of a morning person. And, so, it was always tough for us to figure out going to bed and getting up. But then it became a real help with having babies.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. Yes, and it's a great way of figuring that out, and making it good for everybody in that situation. And both of you were sacrificing a little bit and so it really worked.

Lindsay: It really did work for us.

Dr. Kim: So, then, when you get to four, they'll sleep a little different.

Lindsay: They, eventually, sleep more, so that was really the [Inaudible 00:21:02] Yes, it's so funny, those middle of the night times when you're like, "Did that happen? Did I dream that? What's happening?"

Dr. Kim: I know, exactly, we did the same. I would do the middle of the night feeding because I just loved it, for some reason. Because they're, usually, not completely awake and they're just hungry and all that kind of stuff, and I loved that the two or 3:00 o'clock in the morning like that, it was just a special time. 

And, so, I'd feed, it was either Grant or Julie, and put them back to bed, and then go back to bed. And I could always go back to sleep really easy, really quick, and Nancy can't. Once she's up, it's hard for her to get back to sleep. So that's a good example that you gave, and I can see know that helped us, too. I didn't mind getting up in the middle of night to feed, and not that she did. But, I mean, she'd been doing all this other stuff, it's about time I fed them.

Lindsay: Right, it's your turn. Well, and it's cool, too, because I do feel like, in those decisions; how will we handle this? There's a lot of opinion or a lot of ideals that you might think you would try this or that, but really it's just what works between the two of you, and that's what's the best way to go.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and certainly you're going to get advice from people. People are just so generous in sharing that sometimes, whether it's helpful or not.

Lindsay: Yes, they are.

Dr. Kim: But you still got to figure out what works for you. And if it works for you, don't let anybody criticize you for that. "Hey, this works for us. It works for our marriage; it probably wouldn't work for yours but it works for ours."

Lindsay: Yes, that's great. 

Dr. Kim: And that's what you're trying to figure out, yes.

Lindsay: Yes, so, practically, what are some ways that couples can support one another in their weaknesses?

Dr. Kim: I think you got to accept them, for sure. To accept that I have weaknesses and that your spouse has weaknesses, you both do. And, then, to see how is God going to use these differences? And you can pray for that, "God help us to understand these differences. Help us to understand our weaknesses and our strengths, and help us understand how we work on those together." And you begin to see some things in a different light. 

We have a tendency to criticize our weaknesses, within ourselves, for sure. Sometimes we want to hide our weaknesses or not admit them. On the other hand, we're pretty quick, sometimes, to point them out in our spouse, what we see in them. And, so, if you get in that game, that's not going to go. 

And, so, it's learning to value those weaknesses, too, and that there's nothing wrong with that. That we all have weaknesses and we all have strengths. And when we do acknowledge our weakness and we do see a value or accept that in each other, then we're able to say, "Okay, God, how do we make this work better? How do I complement that weakness he has or she has, and how do we grow in that?"

And, so, really the main thing with weaknesses is to accept them and not to criticize each other for them or to put each other down for them. Just the reality of that we've all got weaknesses, no matter who we are.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's really good. And, I think, too, there's a lot of, like you said, accepting. I feel like, for me, it's like I know my weaknesses. But if Brian says them I'm like, "Oh, no, I don't want to hear them said by you." But if I already know that he isn't pointing it out to make me feel bad or to use it against me, it's just we both know. And if he accepts it, then I feel a lot more peace in that. 

Because it's not that you can't grow, you can grow in your weaknesses. But it's going to be really hard to do that when it's a real tension point and you know that it's driving you apart. Like if you're not feeling accepted or loved in spite of it. It's hard to acknowledge it in an appropriate way that allows for growth, too.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And, I think, too, you can use different words. And I was just saying you can say "This seems to be hard for you and it really isn't hard for me. Why don't I do this?" Something like that, where we're just acknowledging that. 

And, again, if you've sat down together and you've talked about strengths and weaknesses. And you say, "We're going to really work on helping each other with these, coming together, working as a team." All those things. Then when you bring those up, they're not going to be as offensive because you've both agreed to work on this together.

Lindsay: Yes, it's not like a "I got you." It's like, "Hey, we're helping one another."

Dr. Kim: And it can be an, "I got you" and that's where you really get in trouble.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes. I mean, we've probably all done it at some point, it's not helpful. 

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes.

Lindsay: It's not helpful.

Dr. Kim: It feels good for about a second or half a second, and then you think, "Crud, what did I do? And now I've got all this stuff I've got to unravel." Because of just that cute little thing you did for a minute, that really wasn't that cute, obviously.

Lindsay: Yes. Well, and I do think it's interesting, too, how when we're able to accept each other and support them, then, we can work through some of them. One way we've done this is with just having different, I'm more of an introvert, Brian is more of an extrovert. It's not necessarily a weakness or strength, but it's our personality style. 

And, so, by accepting that difference, we can work together to make social plans that work for both of us. And, so, maybe, we agree on this amount of social time and then this time at home, or maybe we do different things sometimes. But it's with that in mind that we're not trying to change each other. We're just accepting we're a little different. So we're going to work on it together, for a good result for both of us.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's really cool. So how does that work for you guys, with the role of a pastor and his wife?

Lindsay: I have to be really intentional about being ready for Sunday or for social gatherings. Because, sometimes, I just have to take other things off my plate so that I have the social energy for it. I have had to learn the hard way.

Dr. Kim: Where Brian just walks to the stage or walks into a room and he's fine. He doesn't have to prepare at all, right?

Lindsay: Well, he prepares in a different way, I mean, obviously, he prepares for Sunday. But, yes, socially, I mean, if we go out on a date or if we go on a walk or the beach or something, he can just know every single person. And I'm like trying to keep up here, put on my big smile, be ready to go. It's so funny.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I just thought of that when you were saying that. Because you are a pastor's wife. And, so, people have certain expectations, I'm sure, and people want you to be visible and things like that.

Lindsay: Yes, it's been really hard for me, and I wrote an article about it that we have on awesomemarriage.com's blog because it's been such a hard thing. But just learning how to navigate it in a way that allows me to thrive, even, in this role, that seems like a weird fit for an introvert.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's good.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, so we talked about covering weaknesses and growing through those. But how can couples also best play to their strengths?

Dr. Kim: So playing for strengths, again, it's to embrace those, and not get competitive with them and to value those strengths. Don't get jealous of your spouse's strengths. Be thankful for those, embrace those strengths.

Oh, my gosh, just like you're saying, "I don't have to walk into that church. I don't have to get on that stage every week. I don't have to walk into that social gathering and be the pastor, and he's got those strengths and I don't have to do that. I have to be there and I have to stretch myself a little bit. But I love it that he's got that, I don't have to do that role because that would be really hard for me to do if not impossible."

And, so, learning to embrace those strengths and see the value in them, and maybe that is looking at a weakness that you have, or at something that you're just not quite as good at as your spouse is in that area. So that would be more to really embrace those and value them in yourself and in the other person. And don't ever use your strengths as a weapon over your spouse, either. Don't use that as something, "Oh, I'm better than you."

Or "I can do this, you can't." 

Or "Yes, do it that way. Well, you're so bad at that." Or, "You're so weak at that, so I'm taking over because I'm strong in that." I mean, no, that's not what you want. You want to say, "Hey, let me do this, and that'll give you a break here." Or whatever it is that'll help out and see that as using your strength to help your spouse, to come alongside your spouse, in a very positive way.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's really good. And, at this point, I can't believe I haven't thought to mention this, yet. But we do have a guide, a resource, that we've created at Awesome Marriage called Team Me and you or Team You and Me. But it's about all about this process of learning how to understand your strengths, understand your weaknesses. Call out the strengths in your spouse, how to work together. 

And it goes through a lot of practical stuff about how to identify all those. How to see each other as a team, really, how to view that. And it's cool because, like you're saying, Dr. Kim, there's not competition in the team. I mean, a team, well, not a healthy one, not a great one, you're pulling each other along. You're pushing each other forward. You're realizing that nobody can be a team alone. You have to learn how to work with your teammate, and how to encourage them, and call it the best in them. 

And, so, that's a huge piece of this, like you said, is not holding their weakness over them or lording your strength over them. But is just saying, "We're different, and that's great because you can't have a team with every player playing the same position."

Dr. Kim: No, absolutely. It's like what Paul was talking about, the different gifts that people have, spiritual gifts. And none of us have all those spiritual gifts except Jesus. And, so, you look at a church, and yes, you've got someone like Brian who can give the Word. And, then, you've got someone that's hospitality, and you've got someone that has these different gifts. And that doesn't mean because the person with hospitality can't preach that that's negative, no. The person that's preaching can't do the hospitality. They need you there to do that. 

So if you look at it that, it helps you see that God created us different there, and we're going to have strengths and weaknesses. And in a marriage there's just two people. So your strengths and weaknesses that God works at are going to complement each other. In a church, you've got a number of people. That are going to have some of the different gifts, but they all work together and, I think, that's Paul's point, everyone is valuable. Every strength is valuable; every weakness is valuable because you understand that someone else is going to have the strength to fill that.

Lindsay: Yes, ideally, I mean, that's such a beautiful picture. Well, I'm thinking about it, really, the worst things I've seen with churches going wrong is when it's one person's like, "I've got all the strength, I've got this covered. I have everything." And then they just kind of force it. And that's not, at all, the model of how relationships are designed to work. Like you said, the different giftings all work together and that's good. So it's really good to be able to lean on someone who has the strengths we don't have, and to support each other in that.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I was just thinking, and you guys, I'm sure, probably, went through this when the church was little. I was just thinking of a pastor I ran into one night before Easter, and I can't remember why I ran into Kinko's, but it was late. Before they closed at ten, but it was late. And here is this pastor running off his Easter bulletins on the printer. 

I just think that as a pastor, as you do a church plant, when you find a volunteer or are able to hire staff member that has a strength that you don't have. That you've had to play out your weakness, what a joy that's got to be. And, probably, the same thing for somebody doing a startup business. "I'm doing this, but, God, having to do all of this." And then you're able to find someone that has a strength in that area you don't, and we see that value all over the place. Well, the same thing is true in marriage.

Lindsay: Absolutely, yes.

Dr. Kim: The same thing is true in marriage.

Lindsay: No, that's so true because I think of those times when we would like, "Oh, we found the staff person and they are incredible at the things that we're not good at." But it's really hard sometimes, like it is in marriage, to communicate because we fundamentally see things differently. So it just takes a little more work to figure out how to play to those strengths.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. And I think as guys, it's okay to admit we have weaknesses. That, sometimes, gets in the way and we try to do things that we just deep down we know this is not my strong suit. But our ego and pride gets in the way. And, so, for us as guys and some women, probably, have that issue, too. 

I'm not putting it all on guys, but it seems like I see it more in guys. To realize it's okay to have a weakness. And depending on how some guys were brought up, you can't be weak, you can't cry, you can't do this, you can't do that. I don't think cry is a weakness anyway. Anything Jesus did, I'm okay with for me doing it, and He wept. And, so, I can weep.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. That's good. I mean, if we can admit those, that's going to bring a whole 'nother level of closeness and intimacy in your marriage, that you can't have when you're just closed off.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Lindsay: That's good. So what are some of the ways that you and Nancy have personally been able to grow, in working as a team in your marriage?

Dr. Kim: I think it's been really a process. Because, one, I think, the fact that we not only our differences, but the thing we had in common. We are both really strong Type A personalities. And, so, we could dig in our heels. All that stuff of learning to compromise or admitting that somebody might have a better idea than you do, and those things. 

It really was a process. And I, honestly, think if prayer had not been a part of our marriage from the beginning, we, probably, still would be fighting a lot of those things, honestly. Being able, because, I think, through prayer, God helped us to learn to value that, and to also help us learn that what we were doing wasn't working. You just can't fight that. 

And, then, out of that, learning to really listen to each other, not discounting each other. Asking each other, "How can I help you?" That phrase there was, probably, one of the key phrases that we'd say to each other, "How can I help you?"

Not saying, "You're so weak in that, how can I help you?" It's just, "How can I come alongside you? How can I help you?" And, so, what we've learned, I think we learned it with kids, as they grew up. Because we did have some different ideas, different family backgrounds. 

But we would pray, and it was so cool how God would just always show up. And it was like things that we might have been discussing, not really arguing about, but trying to figure out for 30 minutes. And one of us would say, "We haven't prayed about this." And, so, we'd pray and about two minutes later we're in agreement. 

So just being willing, working as a team, to realize there's three of you in that team. And that when you involve God in it, it's going to make a huge difference. And, I think, so much of the time where we get in trouble is we leave God out. And then it becomes selfish, then, it comes my way or your way. And when God's in the middle of it, then, that's going to be a win for your marriage. That's how you work as a team and God's there with you to guide you.

So I think that's the things that we have learned, really, of overcoming our personality strengths, of being Type A. And just learning to involve God, to listen better to each other, and to value each other.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's so good. That's really good. And you guys are such a testament to the fact that you've persevered through that, and then you've come out the other side stronger and having a great time.

Dr. Kim: Yes. And I don't know why, sometimes I think we all dig in and we think, "Well, our way really is the right way." We've talked before, Nancy came from a fairly dysfunctional home. So even she thought my parent's ways were better. 

But she could say, and you alluded this earlier, in a different situation. But she could say something bad about her parents, but I learned I couldn't. And that was really important for me to learn that because one time I said, "We wouldn't have these problems if you'd been raised different." Which was really not good to say. That was early on, and I learned there. I guess she probably got angry, but I, also, before that, saw the hurt that was. And I thought, "That's just someplace she just can't go."

And, so, you do learn about those things. How you're going to do your marriage?

How you're going to make it work for the two of you? And it can't be just one person's way.

Lindsay: Yes, there are two people in there for a reason. And it's funny because the hard part is that it's all collaborative, but that's also the beauty of it. So it's just interesting, pretty much anytime you find a real pain point or a tension. The flip side of that is going to be probably the most strength you could find in your marriage.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes. And it's pretty cool when you work as a team; and you do things, and you solve problems, and you get through hard times, together. And you look back and you think, "Oh, my gosh, if you hadn't been with me, that would have been so much harder. 

And, so, learning to value that and look at that perspective, of how valuable your spouse really is to you. This gift that God's given you, and it wasn't a mistake that you guys are together. And when you made your vows, in that covenant with God, the day you got married, and He was all in. And, so, if He's all in and you're all in, you're going to make it through all those things.

Lindsay: Yes.

Dr. Kim: He didn't promise it was going to be perfect. I think John says, "Jesus said, 'In this life you will have trouble. But don't worry! I've overcome the world.'" And He was telling us that's not going to be a perfect road, but it's going to be different because "I'm with you, and if you involve me in that." And, for us, that's made all the difference in the world.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, that's so good. So as we close out this conversation, this has been a really helpful topic and really hopeful as well. Do you have any final piece of advice today?

Dr. Kim: Well, I hope this was helpful, for sure, as I do all of the podcasts that we do. But, I think, maybe, just take some time together or maybe you sit down to yourself. And then bring it to your spouse and think about the differences you have, your strengths and weaknesses. 

And ask God, pray, to see how He would have you live those out in your marriage, and then just share those things with each other. And make a commitment to "We're going to work hard to be a team, and we'll let God work ahead of our selfish desires." And that will make a difference. And, so, I hope it gives you hope. I hope if you're not being a team now, that you can be a team and just take step one today.

Lindsay: That's so good. Well, thank you for sharing all of that, and I want to remind you that we have that Team You and Me Workbook for you, as well. That we really took time to create just for this conversation, for this situation. Because we hear it so often from couples that these differences are a pain point. But like we're saying, in this episode today, they can also be where you find a lot of fruit. 

And, so, this guide is just super practical and really breaks the process down. So it's approachable, and manageable, and really productive for you. So make sure you find that in today's show notes. We'll have the link to that, of course, and we'll also have the link to order Dr. Kim and Nancy's book, Love, Intimacy and Sex in the Second Half. 

Wherever your marriage is today, we hope that you're going to be thriving in the second half and this book will equip and encourage you to do just that. So both of those links are in today's show notes. If you're already subscribed to the podcast email, you'll get those delivered straight to your inbox, of course. And if there's anything else you need from us, feel free to always reach out and email us at info@awesomemarriage.com. We answer every email and we'd love to hear from you. 

Thanks for sharing your time with us today. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today.

[00:41:55] < Outro >

Announcer:Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by The Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.