Worth Repeating: Hard Conversations - You Have to Have Them
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Christina: Today, we were talking about how to have hard conversations with our spouse. We all have to have them. There are things that are not fun to talk about and issues that need to be addressed. But how do we have hard conversations well for the betterment of our marriage? Dr. Kim shares some great practical advice, and some go-to tips for hard conversations, and some things that we should all also avoid when it comes to having these hard conversations. We've created these [Inaudible 00:00:32] for you and your marriage.
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim, Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
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Christina: So, Dr. Kim, what are the different types of hard conversations that couples might need to have?
Dr. Kim: When I was thinking about this, I think for individual couples, there could be a lot of topics on there. Something that Nancy and I might talk about pretty easily, somebody else might think, "This is a hard conversation for us to get to."
I mean, I think, that some of the things that I see that couples struggle to talk about without somebody getting mad, or upset, or that kind of thing. I think money's still one of those things, especially, if you're struggling financially, or you're just barely making ends meet, or you're not making ends meet. So I think that can be a tough conversation because it's easy to get blaming each other in that kind of situation.
I think one that I've seen lately and, I think it's priorities is what I would say. And people overscheduling, overdoing things, thinking all they're doing is good and one spouse feeling left out or, "There's not enough time for me. There's not enough time for our family. How do I do this?"
Because my spouse is not going off and doing horrible kinds. If it's a guy he's not going to strip clubs, he's not hanging up bars. He got on a committee at church, and he did this, and he did that. And, so, when your spouse thinks he's doing good things, how do you say, "I think your priorities are messed up because we're not where we need to be in that." So I think priorities would.
I think sometimes with our kids. We have parenting differences sometimes or how we're going to handle something, and maybe you watch your spouse handle things this way and you go on and on and you think, "You know, I just really am not comfortable with this.
I don't think that's the best way. I think it may be sending a bad message to our child." And how do you approach that with your spouse, without them getting defensive, those kinds of things?
I think, there's things that people hopefully talk about before. I mean, I've had couples that do that, that religion becomes something. Maybe they're in a church and maybe their spouse is really content in it and they're just feel like they're not getting fed or something and you're just not comfortable with. And, so, how do you talk about that?
How do you talk about maybe wanting to look for another church when one's comfortable and one isn't? So there's a number of things that can come up there. But those are just a few that came to my mind, that I've seen couples deal with probably over the last year.
Christina: Yeah, definitely, I agree. I think also conversations about weight and eating, and working out are super hard. Because they are like surrounded by a handful of insecurities and it's attached to attractiveness. And, so, those conversations can be really hard. I think confronting sin is always hard. I think confessing sin is always hard, so those end up being hard conversations.
I think sex conversations are often hard. If you're talking about sex and you're not satisfied with something. I think emotions for a lot of people are really hard, so talking about feelings and arguing about feelings. Even though you really shouldn't argue about feelings, I think, that's a huge thing that a lot of couples struggle with. And then I think that talking about something that might be producing conflict in your marriage or sin in your marriage, but you don't actually want to change it.
So like for example, talking about eating habits or cell phone use. Maybe you both see it as a problem for both of you, but you don't actually want to talk about it because you don't, actually, want to be accountable to change. And, so, those conversations can be hard, or we'll just avoid them. We don't want to talk about how much we're on online, or on social media or how much Netflix we're watching.
Because we don't really want our spouse to hold us accountable. Especially, because we are the ones who are with them at home, and in that intimate space. We can see it, and we can see when they're not doing what they said they were going to do when it comes to limitations with that, I think that's really hard. And then, I think, anything that you don't love saying to your spouse and that you don't love hearing those conversations are just hard. So I agree with you, I think it's like endless that kind of thing.
Dr. Kim: And people listening, I'm sure things pop in your mind that you'd say, "Yeah, this is a hard conversation for us to have, definitely." I think one thing you hit on, that I think really is important and I've seen it two or three times with couples this year. And it has been the guy, I think in all situations, really not understanding his wife's feelings and discounting the feelings.
So, to the point where the wife says, "I'm just not going to share my feelings with anymore because he discounts them. Or says, 'You shouldn't feel that way.' Or he starts throwing, 'Well, but, here are the facts.'" And I just want them to hear feelings. And, so, I guess, what I'm saying here, there's some of these can be more damaging long term to a marriage than not.
Because if you're not having the hard conversation or you're having it, and it's not moving forward, then it really can cause a problem. Because then some resentments come in or some just, "I give up." Or just walls go up those kinds of things.
Christina: Definitely. So what is the hard conversation topic that you are seeing the most right now in the counseling room?
Dr. Kim: I think it really is priorities right now. It manifests itself in a bunch of different ways. But I think, when I thought through, I just counted about five or six couples I'm seeing right now, priorities are an issue with each one of them. How they're doing their time, work situations, work schedules, kid schedules, date nights, conversation time. Just had a great couple that started spending some time with and, so, that was some of the things that surfaced in their first deal.
So that week I had each of them write down their top three priorities. And then we got together, it was interesting. They both came up with, I think four or five, but they were not that far apart, I guess, I'd say on their priorities. But they weren't carrying them out, like you were saying, they were leaving them out.
And, so, then we go to steps one, two, three, and I think that was a huge help for them. To begin to not only have the priorities but then, "How are we going to live that out?" And, I think, it really was exciting for them to say, "Okay, now we've got a plan to live this out." And the reason I say priorities, is because if you're skipping church every week and not making that a priority, and that's bothering you. I mean, there's just so many things that I think fall under that category of priority that can cause a problem.
Christina: Yeah, definitely. So why do couples struggle so much with this, with having hard conversations? Why does it have to be so difficult?
Dr. Kim: I think a lot of us don't want conflict and, so, we're not really sure how that will go. And a lot of it, I think, is just not learning how to talk about how to have conflict in a healthy way and those kinds of things.
But, I think, avoiding conflict. Most of us, when you hear the word conflict, don't think of something nice, and sweet, and fuzzy, and all that kind of stuff, it's very negative for us. And I think the other thing is, "I don't know how to say it." Okay, maybe, "I've tried to say it before and it didn't work well, how do I say it? I don't know how to say it. My spouse doesn't seem to be receptive to listening to it." And, so, I think, those are a couple of the reasons of just putting on the back burner.
Christina: Yeah, definitely, I think you hit on a really good point there. I think a reason that a lot of us find this so difficult is if we don't have a good track record for having hard conversations or conflict conversations. If hard conversations have gotten poorly in the past. Maybe we haven't felt heard, or we just don't want to go there again, or it turned into a huge fight, or it didn't produce any change, then we kind of just don't want to go there.
And I think another hard part about this is that we can't produce change, and that feels hard and heavy. So our spouse's actions and their words they affect us so much. And, yet, we have really no control over it and that's challenging. So when we're having these hard conversations. I think part of us wants to fix the situation and/or our spouse, and we really don't have control over that, and, so, that is hard.
Dr. Kim: That's a really good point. I think, so, when we do, finally, if we're going to have a hard conversation, we got to keep your expectations realistic, and make sure they fit both of you. If they're not unrealistic, and that you're willing to listen to your spouse's perspective or whatever on it. And I think, too, if we go in that pattern where it hadn't worked before and stuff, what I see then resentments begin to build up, and then you've got a whole another deal to deal with because you weren't able to figure out together how to have hard conversations and come to resolutions.
Christina: Yeah, definitely, and I think for Dylan and I, what I have seen over the years is these hard conversations aren't hard, when we're really seeking to understand each other and really asking the right questions. Because, I think, assumptions are the hard part of these hard conversations.
Because, really, we both want good for each other and that's true of most marriages, especially if you're listening to this podcast. And, so, we want good for each other and, yet, we make terrible assumptions about each other. And that's how these hard conversations that should just be a little, maybe awkward, turn into bad conversations when they should have just been fine conversations.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, you hit on a huge thing there with assumptions. And I, probably, talk about something we deal with a lot in counseling and it's, really, for a lot of people, it's hard to get past those. They are so locked in and so many of them are not true. And, so, that whole process, if you make an assumption about your spouse or about something they did or interpreting something. And you don't check it out, and you just go on your assumption, most of the time you're going to be wrong.
Christina: Yeah, even though we think we know ourselves so well.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Christina: We all have different personalities and we think differently. And I think just a common human flaw that we have is we think everyone thinks like we think, and that is not true. If you go back and listen to our Enneagram podcast series, you'll learn a lot more about that. But not everyone thinks like us, not everyone operates like us, not everyone has the same motivations as us, or the fears as us. And, so, we cannot make assumptions for our spouse about those things.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, and, I think, we're all prone to do it. I think it's getting yourself where you check those out. And, so, I make an assumption or Nancy makes an assumption about me, and, so, she tells me and I say, "No, this is what I think." And, so, she is like, "Oh, okay." Or she makes assumption and she's right and then we can deal with it. But check it out if you've got an assumption.
Christina: Yeah, I like that. Check out your assumptions, I like that a lot, that's good. It's very tweetable, Dr. Kim. What are the things we need to avoid when having hard conversations with our spouse? Where do couples often go wrong when it comes to this?
Dr. Kim: Probably hit the biggest one with assumptions. I think the thing that I see is getting defensive that really causes problems. Not listening, I guess, is really what it downs to. I mean, I think if Nancy is having a hard conversation with me, my role really is to listen to what she's saying. To not get defensive, to not, when she gets about halfway through to think, "Oh, this is what I'm going to say because she's wrong on this." To, really, listen through to her, and then maybe sometimes I respond too quick.
Sometimes I need to think about it. And I think I need to tell her and give myself permission to think about that a little bit. Say, "You've really made some good points. I haven't really thought about it in that way, I need to pray about that. Can we get back together in 30 minutes or whatever?" And just really honor her by thinking through that, not discounting it.
Because I think what happens then, if I cut her off in the middle of it, come back and discount it. She's going to not have those hard conversations with me in the future. And some things that need to be dealt with in our marriage are not going to be dealt with.
Christina: Yeah, definitely, that is such a good point. Because discounting what our spouse is going to say is not going to fix the problem, it's only going to make it worse. And regardless of your reality of the situation, this is their reality, that's what they're seeing, and, so, you have to deal with it. You can't just walk away with it and tell them they're wrong, that's not going to produce any fruit.
So and, I think, you're right. I think assumptions is the number one thing and then I think there's two things that kind of fall under assumptions a lot. Would be like accusing each other, so that often falls under assumptions. So you make assumptions and, so, now you're making accusations based on those assumptions. And then I think projecting motivations on our spouse, which is also making assumptions, but just a specific way of doing it.
But I think far too often we'll get frustrated with our spouse or/and these hard conversations will go poorly. Because we're projecting motivations on them that aren't true. And not really getting to the heart of it or understanding why our spouse did what they did, or said what they did, or is operating how they're operating.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely.
Christina: And then I think one other thing is where couples can go wrong sometimes. I think a lot of couples, especially millennials, I notice, they will joke, or kid, or tease, their spouse when really they should be having honest, real conversation. So it's like I see a lot of couples trying to skip the hard conversations with a joke and hoping to get results. But that is not effective and I don't see them getting the results that they're wanting from that.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, sarcasm probably falls in that too. I think that's an easy place to go and that's so unhealthy.
Christina: Yeah.
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[00:14:40] <Music>
Christina: So what are some tips for having hard conversations? How do we do this, well?
Dr. Kim: I think, one, if couples are listening to this and you're not doing a good job of it. I think you've got to agree that in our marriage, we want to be able to have hard conversations. I think you've got a lay of foundation there. Is this something that every couple needs to do it sometime in their marriage. Some do it more often than others. Nancy and I still have hard conversations about things. And, so, doing that, agreeing to that, and then scheduling it.
If your spouse is cooking dinner and you come in, in the middle of that, and want to have this hard conversation, that's not going to be the time to do it. Make sure it's a time where that's good for both of you and then I think listening is such a big deal of it. You've got to focus and listen to your spouse till they finish.
And then when you're sharing, share from your heart, don't be judgmental, don't be put down. Just say, "Hey, this is what's going on. This is how it's affecting me. This is what I'd like to see us talk about, or change, or work on together, or whatever it is in that." And ask your spouse to come alongside you in that.
Then it all goes back to what we talk about so much, being a team. I think everything you do in marriage, you can spin it around and figure out how to do it as a team. And, so, if one brings up the hard conversation, but you realize, "Okay, this is a problem for my spouse, so it's now my problem too. How do we solve this together?"
The hard conversations will not be the negative things that maybe you have experienced in the past. Because you're trying to get your marriage better. And I think respecting, if this is important to Nancy, it may not make sense to me at all. But I need to listen to her. I need to honor her with that and I need to help her come to a solution that works for both of us.
Christina: Yeah, that's good. I think there's also something to be said about sticking to 'I Statements' instead of accusatory statements. So, saying like, "I feel like this, when this happens, what do you think about that?"
Or "How do you see that happening?"
Or, "Why do you do this? Help me understand."
Can be really helpful instead of just coming in and, again, using those assumptions and making accusations about your spouse.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I think learning some good keywords. I think I love the one that I use a lot, in situations, that's helped me understand. Because that way you're asking them to help you see their perspective into something and it's hard for them. I've never had anybody get defensive when I've said it that way. I said, "I, help me understand this. I can't quite get around it." And, so, then when they share and then I can say, "Okay, still that makes sense."
Or, "Can you elaborate on that?"
Or, "Okay, now I get it."
But if I come in, with a hard conversation and start telling Nancy how bad she is about something, and this has got to stop, and blah, blah, blah. She's going to get defensive and dig in and we're not getting anywhere with that.
Christina: Yeah, definitely. I think another important thing to note about this is, it's really important to understand your spouse's personality when it comes to these hard conversations. Because we all want to handle these differently. And, so, if you are the one who's confronting something, you should probably try to go your spouse's way on it.
For instance, I know, for Dylan, when I need to tell him something hard, he wants me to say it directly and quickly. He does not want a bunch of niceties. He doesn't want to be told in a roundabout way, he just wants to be told straight and quick. Whereas I do not want to be told like that at all. I want you to tell me about it in a very roundabout way, and I want you to throw a lot of niceties in it.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, you want the sandwich method, right?
Christina: I do want the compliment sandwich. "Hey, babe, you're so beautiful, and here's this terrible thing you're doing, and also you're wonderful." That's what I need.
Dr. Kim: And we talk back and forth about the Enneagram, I'm going to plug that series we have with Beth McCord, the series on the Enneagram. It helps so much in couples understanding each other and that we do have differences. If you haven't listened to that, take the Enneagram test, find out what number you and your spouse are, and at least listen to those two.
Christina: Yeah, definitely. And they, actually, in her book, The Becoming Us. It has in the back, like a little map of how to talk to each number with hard things, and how to confront each number. So that has been super helpful in our marriage. So, I think, it's just helpful to understand, how does spouse want to be talked to when it comes to hard conversations?
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I was so bad about this in the early years of our marriage. Of trying to, "I understand this, I'm expressing it." Like, "You should understand this, why aren't you understanding this." And realizing she wasn't understanding and it wasn't because she didn't want to, it wasn't that she didn't love me. It was like I was speaking a foreign language to her.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And I had to learn to say things in a way that she could hear. I wish we had the Enneagram back then. It was around then, nobody talked about it back then. But then that understanding you can get and you say, "Oh yeah, she is a Six, and, so, if I say it this way, she's going to hear it a lot better than if I say it. Like I would say it as a Two to another Two."
Christina: Yeah, definitely, that's good. So speaking of that, how do you prefer Nancy tell you something hard. What does this look like for your own marriage?
Dr. Kim: I'm, probably, more like Dylan. I want her to be honest, and she is. I mean, I think she's always been on things she's honest about it. She likes for us to deal with things and not put them on the table. She usually will start out, would tell me how it's affecting her. And, so, that I get that connection. But I like her to get to the point, and then put it out there, and then I can respond and say, "Okay, this is what I'll do."
Or, "This is what I think we could do together."
Or, "Help me understand that, I'm still not getting that or whatever it is." But I would rather get it out on the table and get it going. I really think she would too because that's the way she is. I would guess that she would rather if it's a hard conversation say, "Hey, we need to talk about something." And that's usually what we do, and we sit down, "This is a good time, let's sit down, let's talk about it."
Christina: Yeah, that's good. I rather, Dylan not talk to me about hard things, I'm just kidding. No, I do want him to talk to me about hard things. I think, for me, and I think this will be helpful for other husbands out there, especially, is I will hear things better, especially when it's feedback about myself, like criticism about myself, if I feel loved. So which means that that takes real intentional daily marriage work.
These conversations will go better if you are in a great place in your marriage. If you're showing up and being a great spouse, then these hard conversations are going to go well. Whereas if your spouse doesn't feel loved, your spouse feels ignored.
You haven't been going on date nights, you haven't been making each other a priority. You don't feel connected. You don't feel bonded. You guys haven't been having sex. Well, yeah, those conversations are going to go terrible when you try to have a hard conversation.
But if you're super-connected, if you're best friends. If you've been working on your marriage, if you've been doing kind things for your spouse, then the likelihood of these hard conversations going well is just so much higher.
Dr. Kim: And I think if you're having regular conversations, your time of need of hard conversations is going to be less.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Because you are connecting more, you're understanding each other more. Something that may have been hard, because of that communication and the closeness they can bring, it's not that hard of a deal. And, so, it either pales or you've been able to talk about it just in conversation and not having to think, "Oh my gosh, I'm scared to do this." No, we talk openly about things. And, so, we can talk about this.
I'll bring it up when we're talking, "We're going to talk tonight." Like we usually do for 15, 20 minutes and I'm going to bring this up just in a casual way. Because I know they're going to receive it well because we've established that.
I mean, I think that would probably be the goal. Not that that'll cover every hard conversation, but I really think you could minimize them by daily good communication. And you know the 24/7, 365 foreplay we talk about. Treating each other with respect, and kindness, and value, all the time is going to eliminate a lot of those kinds of things.
Christina: Yeah, definitely, and I agree with you when it comes to the whole, the hard things paling in comparison, I think that is so true. I think so many of us, when our marriage is in a great space when we're not making an intentional effort. Then we get really nitpicky and critical of our spouse.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Christina: Whereas you really don't even maybe need to say half those things that you're all geared up to say, when it comes to the hard conversations. If you just invest in your marriage and then all those things pale, like you said. And then I think another thing when it comes to assumptions and hard conversations is one thing with the Enneagram. Like it is super helpful, it's a great tool, but you still don't want to assume people's motivations and reasons for doing things.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Christina: And, so, with the Enneagram, I think it's really easy to be like, "Oh, I totally understand you now."
"I understand Dylan, he's an Eight, he's doing this because he doesn't want to be controlled.
Or, "He's doing this because he doesn't want to be vulnerable."
Well, you still just don't know in each scenario what your spouse is doing or feeling. And, so, even if you really understand their personality type, it doesn't mean you, literally, know. So you still have to do the work of checking it, like you were saying. Don't let those things that you're thinking go unchecked with your spouse, even if you know their Enneagram number.
Dr. Kim: Really a good point, absolutely, always go a little deeper. And in that too, it helps you know how to pray for your spouse a little more specific, and that helps in some of those situations too, all situations actually.
Christina: Yeah, really. So what if we keep having the same hard conversation, but nothing seems to be changing, Dr. Kim?
Dr. Kim: So I think we need to add something like a drum roll in here every time I say the word counseling. Because, obviously, I believe in counseling, we've both seen the benefits in our own lives, our own marriages. And it goes back to what we talk about in the Seven Secrets About the Insanity. Okay, we keep having them, nothing is changing over and over, you got to break the cycle.
I think counseling is a great way to do that. Because somebody that can be objective and kind of see where you guys are not getting it, or to be accountable to, to help you get past that issue. And a mentor couple probably can do it depending on that. But take a next step, don't just keep doing the same thing over because that really gets frustrating.
Resentments can build up, or it becomes much more negative. We're trying to have it, it's just not changing. And, so, we're not listening to each other or we're not understanding each other. Which, a lot of times, that is what I see in counseling. They really have kind of talked about it, but they didn't really understand each other in that. And once I could help them express things and understand each other. It made all the difference in the world, in getting the change to come.
Christina: Yeah, that is so good. Very good, I love that. Well, this has been a good conversation. I hope this has been helpful to everyone. What's your final piece of advice for our listeners today?
Dr. Kim: We all have to have them. I think a couple of things that I would really suggest, if you're not having regular conversations every day, work together to do that. Even if it's just 15 minutes a day, but just where you build that in, and you'll see how much better your marriage is because of that and how few hard conversations. And if there is a hard conversation you need to have, have it.
Don't keep stuffing it down. Don't act like it doesn't bother you when it does, have it. And if you're not at a point where you feel like you can do it, the two of you, go to counseling or go to a mentor couple that can help you get that started.
You need to be able to have those, they're going to come up. Every couple has to have hard conversations. But I think with Nancy and I, now, when one of us brings it up, we do a lot better job of evaluating that, of listening to that, and that just takes some work. So I'm just encouraging you to take those steps.
Christina: Yeah, that is good advice, I love that. Well, next week on the podcast, we're going to be talking about sharing your marriage conflict with your friends. I know it seems weird. Do you really want to share marriage conflict? Is that something you'd want to share? But what we're going to be talking about is when it's appropriate to share your marriage issues with who and why.
Too often, we are too stingy with the truth of our conflict, and our marriages, our friendships, and our friends' marriages are missing out because of it. Tune in next week to hear why we believe that. Hey, as always, if you need anything at all please don't hesitate to reach out to us. You can email us at info@awesomemarriage.com or message us on Instagram. We love praying for you and we love hearing from you. And to each and every one of you that has left a rating and a review of the podcast, thank you.
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[00:27:58] <Music>
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[00:28:38] <Outro>