Feeling Used in Sex | Ep. 514
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host. Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Have you ever felt used in sex? Sex is one of the gifts that God gives us in marriage, yet, it is still one of the most frequently argued over topics among couples. And it's also not something that many of us will talk that candidly about with friends. Because it's so personal and intimate that we often end up struggling silently with our sex problems. And that's why we're addressing this issue today.
So thanks for tuning in. We're so glad to be here and we hope that this conversation's going to shed some light on some of the great observations and wisdom that Dr. Kim can bring us from the counseling room.
So Dr. Kim, when you're counseling couples, how often are they having healthy and productive conversations about sex?
Dr. Kim: Very seldom, unfortunately.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I think it's one of those things that, because I think the key question is healthy. They have conversation about sex, but maybe it's when one is mad or one is saying, "I want to have sex." And the other says, "I don't."
Or, "You treated me this way. How can you expect me to have sex with you?" Things like that. Well, those aren't healthy conversations. I mean, they are things that need to be dealt with, but as far as couples just sitting down, and talking about what they like, what they don't like, what they'd like to see as part of their sex relationship. Seeing it as the gift it is from God, very few couples do that.
Lindsay: Hmm. Why do you think that they won't?
Dr. Kim: I think there's probably a number of reasons depending on couples and stuff like that. I mean, I think, sometimes people don't know how to bring it up or they have this fear, "It's not going to go well. We argued about sex the last five times we had sex or tried to have sex, and are we just going to get in another argument, if I bring it up again?" And then I think sometimes, as guys, we don't talk about it because we think we're supposed to know everything.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Honestly, I think, our egos get in the way, and I think when I learned that, one, I had a lot to learn about women in general, and Nancy, in particular, that made a big difference. Because I could, generally, understand things about what women want, and why they need this, or what works best for them in a sexual relationship.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: But I had to apply that then to Nancy. Not put her in a box with every other woman, because she had some uniqueness of her own. And, so, I think taking the time to talk about it and really listen to each other, and to continue to try to grow that relationship, I think, that's what we don't do very well.
Lindsay: Yeah, I think, you're right about that. When you talked about guys knowing everything, I think, for me, I mean, I don't know, I won't speak for all women. But I know, for me, my understanding of what a sex life was supposed to be mostly was from like rom-coms, from movies, and shows. Where nobody ever talks about it, they just always do it, like, it's just always happening all the time.
Dr. Kim: Right, they are just in bed all of a sudden.
Lindsay: And they're both into it. They're both enjoying it in the same amount, the same intensity, and there's never a conversation.
Dr. Kim: No, and, I think, it's assuming that we have the same sex drive, which usually we don't. And I've seen and worked with some couples where the wife had the higher sex drive, but in general it's usually the husband who does. And, so, I mean, I think, romcoms are fun to watch sometimes, but sometimes they give us a real distorted view of what sex is or how this is going to play out in a relationship, in a really healthy way.
Lindsay: Yeah, totally. Yes, it's terrible preparation for marriage. Even dating, I believe that sex belongs in marriage. But if you did not wait until you're married to have sex, your experience of sex before you're married is going to be vastly different.
Because if you were dating, having sex, you don't have to work through it. You don't have to work through issues. If you aren't liking how it's going, you just break it off, or you put up with it because it's enough. Once you're in marriage, you're going to have to hammer some things out and it's going to be harder. But if you don't know how to do that, I mean, it's, it's going to be really difficult to get that conversation going.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, it is. One of the things that I do in pre-marital, in one of the sessions, I always ask them to write down the thing that they look forward to most in the sexual relationship and marriage.
And it's just to get the conversation started, to begin and that's what I tell them afterwards, and I ask them to share it with each other, which is always kind of fun. Because some people are embarrassed and some people are just not.
I had one girl, one time, she looked at what her fiancé wrote down and she had this huge gasp, that everybody in there saw, and I never did find out what he wrote down.
But I think we just don't do it, and, so, I want couples to talk about that. I think it has to be talked about. Because it's something that's, I think, usually going to be a work in progress. And we see couples that go through different stages, and maybe one person has an illness.
One person ends up with a disability, how do you continue to make this a priority? How do you make this work? And, so, if you don't have those conversations going. I think, a lot of frustration can come, and resentments and those things don't work well in a marriage if they're not dealt with
Lindsay: No, they do not, no. We have heard you talk about how few couples talk about sex, on The Awesome Marriage team. And, so, we created The Love-Making Survey, which is what you're talking about doing in counseling is done in this resource as well.
It's just a non-threatening way to get that conversation started. There's some light-hearted stuff and then there's some more serious stuff, and you can just get this resource for a donation of any amount at all. Just get that conversation on the table-
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I think, a lot of times is not knowing where to start. Sometimes I'll give couples, there's a really good book I like called Getting Your Sex Life Off to A Great Start by the Penners, their last name.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay: And it's just to begin to get the conversation started, and to talk about things. Because as much as guys would like to think they know all this stuff about the female body, we really don't.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: We have to learn that from our wives, and, so, I think having something there, like the tool we're talking about from Awesome Marriage, the Sex Challenge or a book like that, it's just to have some information or a starting place. Something you can pick up and it's tangible that you can begin to talk about with. Sometimes we just don't know where to start.
Lindsay: That's a great point, and I think too it's important to note the sex life is not isolated in the bedroom. It's not separate from everything else going on. So if you have any resentments, anything you can't talk about, any kind of areas of simmering tension, that is going to carry over into your sex life.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: So I think we got to just go ahead and break down that wall and, and get the conversation going. And I've heard the analogy that sex in marriage is like a light on the dashboard, like a warning light. If it's not going well, it's just an indicator that something else is going on too
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, I agree, sometimes, I think, going into marriage we think sex will fix everything. I mean, I thought that, "Well, if we have a fight we'll just have sex and everything will be okay." Well, I didn't last even a month, probably, into marriage. When I realized that's a bad philosophy, wherever I picked that up.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: So, I think, it's something that doesn't fix everything. It should be more like, I don't know, to me, it's the culmination of everything else coming together. Of, if our communication's good, if we're solving conflict well. If we're not fighting over money, if spiritually we're connected, which is a huge part, I think, of a good sex life.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I mean, there are studies that say that couples that, consistently, pray together have a better sex life. And I think it's because you feel very connected with each other when you're praying together. And, so, I think, that all of those things play a part in it.
Lindsay: Yeah, that's good, it all goes together. So have you heard a spouse express that they have felt used in marriage sex?
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I think, especially, when people come in for counseling, obviously, they don't come in just to talk and say, "How are you doing, love Awesome Marriage." They're in there for a reason.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, I think, sometimes that will come up and it may be not the presenting problem. But if Nancy is not feeling that I'm caring for, if I'm just not paying attention to her, if I come home at night and I go on the computer. I have dinner with her, but we don't really talk about anything, and then at bedtime I want to have sex.
I mean, she's not going to feel loved, cared for, cherished, respected. And, so, I think, that's when a wife can begin to feel used. That you're doing your own thing 23 hours and 45 minutes of the day. And then you want to come in and expect me to be whatever, and you to be super guy, and that doesn't work that way.
Lindsay: Yeah, totally.
Dr. Kim: And, so, I think, depending on the state of the relationship, if there's been abuse in the relationship, then certainly the wife is going to feel used in the sex relationship.
And, so, I see it more, I don't know that I've ever seen it where a man felt like he was used, that I can think of. But I've seen it where a number of women felt used, and sometimes I've just put words to it for them after I know that's what they're trying to say. And they'll go, "That's it, I feel used."
I've had some couples say, "I feel like a prostitute." So, I think, that is something and that's not going to be healthy for your marriage and, I think, for a guy that should be a huge red flag.
"Okay, there is something missing here." Because, I think, inside we want our wives to enjoy having sex with us. We want to know they're drawn to us, that they care about, that, that's an important thing to them. And, so, if that's not happening, if we're just going through the motion with somebody and they're feeling used, well, the fulfillment's not going to be there on either side.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, I think, that's important. If that is not a relational connection, in all levels, then there is going to be something missing. And, I think, that's when I've heard people talk about this feeling, I have felt it at times. In times when we just felt relationally disconnected, but at the same time knowing sex is an important part of a marriage, and I would know it's more important for him in certain ways than it is for me. Like I just wasn't feeling it. I could compartmentalize, turn it off, and be like, "You know what I'm not feeling connected, I'm just not interested."
But also didn't want to be cold, or distant, I don't know what else to term, but other term to use than just be a bad wife. Because, I think, that is a message that we know from biblical marriage would say that, "Each spouse belongs to each other." We've given over the rights of our bodies to one another.
And, so, even though if you don't feel like doing it or want to do it, there is still this shared giving and give and take. So there would be times where I would say, "Well, yeah, okay, fine I'll do it." But not want to. And I think there is a place for not both being in the same state of feelings, and we'll get into that more later.
But that was not a feeling that felt connective, it didn't feel close. And also I think a lot of that was us not having a good communication tools to talk about each what we wanted and needed, and, so, it just became a point of tension.
Dr. Kim: I think that can happen a lot when we're not talking about it.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, I agree, I think, usually, the guy is going to have higher sex drive, I think we are wired that way. We're very visual and, so, we can look at our wife and be excited. When she's thinking, "I got to get dinner. I got to get the kids. Oh, my gosh, I haven't done the homework with so and so," And we're just sitting there falling in love and, so, I think we have to see those differences and I think God made it that way on purpose.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Because we have to work at it and we have to understand each other. And, so, I think, when a wife says, "No tonight, I really don't." But it's not like you've been in huge fights or he's been a jerk or anything, it's just like saying, "I love him and this is going to be important to him, and, so, I'm going to make it important to me."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I think a lot of times we do those things. I think, my experience is it's, usually, the wife doing that for the husband.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Probably very seldom where the husband, I'm sure it can happen, it does happen. Especially if the wife has a higher sex drive that he needs to be able to say, "I'm not into it right now, but I'm going to do this for her."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Because I know that's important to her right now. And so again, it's working together on it, and if you're not communicating, you're never going to get that kind of conversation going.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dr. Kim: And, so, maybe, I don't know, it, can go bad or it can taint the sexual relationship, or frame it in a way that it's not good.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And not like it's a gift from God, and then you got to work through getting out of that framing, and reframe it as a gift from God.
Lindsay: I think so. And, I think, I've heard men talk about this, like if they're trying to conceive as a couple. That it, "Sex became this awful burden because when it was when she's ovulating, it just had to happen. I feel like a piece of meat,” and all these things that I've heard it phrased almost as a joke but it wasn't a joke, that kind of thing.
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Lindsay: And I think it's important to point out, it could be, whatever the cause. If you are not feeling connected in sex it's time for a bigger conversation, and, I think, that's what we're getting at today.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, too, what you're saying guys, when they're trying to get pregnant and stuff like that. It's realized that may be what we need to do for a season, to have a baby and that's okay.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And most guys, and the reason, probably, they say it and they laugh a little bit. Because no guy wants to admit that he's having a lot of sex and he's tired of it, or feeling used.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I mean, I think, our egos get in the way of us submitting that. So we can say something like that and laugh, and that softens it a little bit.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm. So what do you think are some of the reasons for feeling used? We've touched on some, but what do you think is going on there?
Dr. Kim: I think, when we talk about 24/7, 365 foreplay, which basically is how you treat each other all the other hours of the day. And, so, it's being attentive to each other, it's being kind to each other, it's doing their chores for them without them asking to. Find something special to do, saying nice things to each other all those things. And, so, when those things are in place, I think it's the sexual relationship just as a natural part of that. Because you've made this great situation, environment, where you both feel loved, cared for, accepted, cherished, and just the sex relationship becomes just the icing on the cake with all of that.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, where that is not happening then there's no connection, and, I think, that's where sometimes it begins to feel used. I'm not paying attention to him or her, he's not paying attention to me, except for that 10 minutes, every other night. After the sports, before he goes to sleep and that's it. And, so, I think, when that begins to happen and you're not talking about it, then you're definitely easy to feel used.
Lindsay: Yeah, I think so. And, I think, also underlying tension or strife in a marriage is going to come into play there. Any bitterness or resentment is going to disconnect you. A lack of emotional connection, in addition to all the things that you said, Dr. Kim, I think are going to play into that for sure.
Dr. Kim: Yeah and one of the things with sex it is to draw us closer together, it was to become one. I mean, God gave us that gift for a number of reasons, pleasure, certainly.
But it really bonds us together. And, so, if a couple's struggling and then you're not having sex on top of that, and you just seem to go deeper and deeper, or farther and farther apart. I think in those situations and all of a sudden you're not sleeping in the same bed. And all of a sudden you don't talk as much.
It's these steps that just take you farther and farther away from each other, instead of coming together, looking at a red flag, when it jumps up and say, "What do we do about this?"
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, and, I think, it's really great the phrase that you just used, "What do we do about this?" We just did an episode recently on team language, and I think this is a huge place where we have to express this as a, "What can we do?" Instead of, "Well, if you're not into it, what's wrong with you?" Because that's just not going to connect you.
Dr. Kim: No. And, I think, sometimes, us guys, we say really stupid things like that. Early in marriage, I know, I said some really dumb things, just trying to get my way, honestly.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, it comes a time you realize you don't want your wife to have sex with you out of guilt.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: That's just not a good thing, a good precedent to start. Even though it works temporarily, in the long term, it's really dangerous, and, I think, sometimes us guys we get into that. Try to guilt our wives into having sex or manipulating some way, and that's not getting, in the long term, what we really want is for our wives to want to be with us and want to have sex with us, and want to be that level of intimacy with us.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, well, and I love this is something that you've shared before about when you and Nancy were earlier in marriage. And when you noticed that she was not as receptive to affection because it was always leading to sex.
Dr. Kim: Yep.
Lindsay: Will you share a little bit about that? What you did with her?
Dr. Kim: I mean, I think, before marriage, we did non-sexual touching great. I mean, holding hands, putting arms around each other, all those kind of things that just really bonded us together.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And I think once we got married, my focus was, "Yeah, I don't have to do all those anymore, now we get to have sex all the time." And I think that what happened was that I got to that point, wherever time I would initiate anything or a hug, or whatever, she felt and, probably, she was right, that my goal was always sex. And, so, she, instead of being over close to me in bed, she started moving farther away.
Until, finally, I asked her, I said, "What is the deal?" I knew something was wrong, and so she shared that with me. "Sometimes I just want you to hold me. Sometimes I want that to be non-sexual touching. Sometimes I just want to feel you close to me, and your warmth, and things like that."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And she said, "Every time that I'm close to you, it always ends in sex, and not that I don't want the sex. But other times I just want to be cuddled and loved."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: So that was like, "Oh, really?" I mean, that was a revelation to me at that point. And, so, I said, "Okay". I said, "I'll make a deal with you, I won't initiate anything unless you do." And then she looked at me like, "You don't mean that."
Lindsay: Skepticism.
Dr. Kim: And I'm thinking, "Why did I say that? You've said some dumb things, that was the dumbest thing you did." But I think what happened over that next few weeks, is that I got back to knowing the importance of non-sexual touch. Of holding our hand, cuddling, doing those things, look into her eyes, whispering, just the things that really bonded us together, and, I think, we needed to rebuild those things.
I think those bonding things you need to go through over and over and over, all the way through your marriage. You just don't get to marry, and you just get to sex, and that's all it is. It's we're touching sexual parts and we're doing sexual things, and that's it, and then you never touch otherwise. But it's those hugs, it's holding hands, it's putting your arm around each other, all those things that continue to bond in a really special way.
Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, the bonding, there's the connection. There is the pursuit aspect of where, as a woman, she knows that you care about all of her, not just about the sexual goal.
Dr. Kim: And I think that pursuit is a really important thing.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I think, as guys, we do that so well before we get her to say, "I do." And then sometimes we don't do that well afterwards.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Because I think that is kind of a guy mentality, somewhat, we have something to conquer, and we conquer it. Then we go off to conquer something else, not realizing that we have to continue to pursue our wives our whole marriage. It's something that we have to do, they want to be pursued. Our relationship is better when a wife feels pursued and plus it's fun.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dr. Kim: It is kind of fun.
Lindsay: I think you're really spot on when you say that these are the bonding steps, are steps we have to continue to take over and over in marriage. There's nothing static where you just have arrived. And, also, I mean, as people you're in different seasons, you are in different scenarios, you are growing, you are changing.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: So everything has to continue to grow and change with you.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I think early on, I thought, "We'll get this down and then we'll just coast."
Lindsay: Sure.
Dr. Kim: And then you find out that we do change, and we do have seasons change, and things in our lives change life and, so, it's a continuing process. But it can continue to get better every stage if you work on it.
Lindsay: Yes, together.
Dr. Kim: Together, absolutely.
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[00:23:17] < Music >
Lindsay: So do you think that it's ever okay for a spouse to feel used in their marriage sex?
Dr. Kim: Yeah, it is, definitely, but that should be a red flag, and you don't want to get stuck there.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, first, would be talking to your spouse about it. If that doesn't work, then what are your next? Hopefully your spouse will respond to that, but sometimes you'll need a third party to go to kind of help you guys work through that.
Lindsay: Yeah, I think so. I think this is a really good place to have that conversation that we were talking about when we opened. Because, I think, what I have observed, just in my marriage, but also talking to people and then even with Awesome Marriage, hearing a lot of people's stories, I think, it kind of goes straight to fights.
I think it's so personal and it's so intimate, we don't really have a forum for talking about this. And I also think that, first of all, we have to prepare to have a conversation outside of that moment. Instead of just lashing out, or holding back, or shutting down.
I also think that this is a place where we have to examine really honestly and carefully what we've already communicated to our spouse, and assess like, "Okay, I feel this way, do they have any clue? Do they have any idea what I'm feeling or am I just kind of barricading it?"
And then, I think, we have to recognize we have our feelings, we might feel that way, we might feel used, we might feel any number of things. But this is a place where our feelings are an important part of the package, but they are not in charge.
They don't get to call the shots and you don't say, "Well, I feel used, so, therefore, I'm not going to ever do that again." That's not fair to do, and, so, I think we have to assess those feelings. Use them like the indicator like we talked about earlier, and say, "Well, what's going on under here? What have I communicated? Have I gone to my spouse and had a really honest conversation that said, 'Here is how I'm feeling, how can we work on that together?'"
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Lindsay: And then another one we can't stay quiet and just hold it inside, and expect anything to change, that's not fair. But we also cannot get bitter about it and assume that either they're doing this on purpose, or they won't change, or they'll never understand. Because that bitterness is going to block our connection, it's going to mess up our view of our spouse. It's going to prevent us from growing, and we're going to grow distant, and we won't make any progress towards it if we're staying in that stuck place.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and, I think, sometimes people get there. I've had couples that have come in that hadn't had sex for months, sometimes a year or two. And, I think, they got stuck like that and they didn't know how to get out of it. Or they tried to get out and it just didn't work and, so, they just kind of backed off, which is so dangerous. Because, one, we live in a culture that's very sex-charged.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: All of us are vulnerable to an affair, I think. I think each time you realize, say you're not vulnerable, you're kidding yourself.
Because, I think, you let your guard down and, so, we have to let our guard up. And, so, if things are not good sexually at home, then that opens us up to all kinds of temptations.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: There are always there, anyway, but I think it makes them heightened. And, so, in those steps, I mean, struggling with your sex life and working out is one thing. But if you bring infidelity, or something like that in, then you're talking to a whole different ballgame.
Lindsay: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Kim: Not that is an excuse because it's not. But you need to work on what you have together with the two of you, and making that so special that everything else pales in comparison. And, so, that's, I think, one of the best ways to fight that temptation, along with the Holy Spirit.
Lindsay: That's true, that's something that you got to value that a lot, so much that you wouldn't ruin it for anything.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Lindsay: I think this is a place, too, where we have to examine our expectations. Like what we talked about earlier sort of when I came into marriage with the rom-com expectation. That would lead me to believe and did lead me to believe that Brian should always know exactly what I want, because that's always how it happens, like why didn't this work? And, so, I had some, really, unrealistic expectations around thinking that he would just understand, or be intuitive. Or somehow sense these things that were bothering me without me communicating them, and that's not fair, it's not realistic.
And, so, learning how to examine those expectations and catch them and say, "Okay, actually, I haven't been completely fair to you, or honest, or realistic." And just confessing that can be really helpful for both parties to say, "Okay, I, actually, never communicated that I expected we'd have sex twice a day." (Which is not what I expected from Brian, but just an example to say.)
Then if you're going to be expecting something, like we talk about all the time, it has to be realistic, it has to be communicated, it has to be agreed upon. Otherwise you are really having a separate relationship in your head and, so, it's going to be very frustrating.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, absolutely. I think when we got married on our honeymoon, for some reason in my mind, I thought we were supposed to have sex three times a day.
Lindsay: Oh, gosh.
Dr. Kim: And guess who I didn't tell that, that was my expectation?
Lindsay: Surprise.
Dr. Kim: And, so, and I had like a box I had to check three times every day. And I learned fairly early in marriage that expectations have got to be communicated, and they have to be negotiated, and all that kind of stuff.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yeah, yikes.
Dr. Kim: To be realistic. Because, I mean, it was like we were on our honeymoon, so Nancy was pretty much end up all that. But we'd been out, we'd been in the sun all day and maybe we had sex that morning or something like that, and we have a big dinner and come home, it's like, "Okay, we haven't had the third sex today so I got to check that box."
I mean, it was just obsessive, but then that was when she finally goes, "Wait a minute." And, so, then I think I shared what my expectation was and then we were able to begin to be a little more realistic about it.
Lindsay: That is hilarious.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, it's just 20-year-old guy.
Lindsay: Like, "Man, this marriage is failing, we're only twice a day."
Dr. Kim: I know, what we should do, I need help?
Lindsay: Oh, boy, she probably needed help too at this point.
Dr. Kim: She thought, "What in the heck have I done?"
Lindsay: Oh, buddy! Now, that's a great example though, because it's like if we can have so many instances of those unrealistic, uncommitted expectations, in this regard and no wonder we're fighting about it. Because we have never verbalized it, we've never asked for it we've never had an honest conversation. Instead, we just get our feelings hurt, we get weird, it comes out sideways, and it's a mess.
Dr. Kim: Well, and I think you said something earlier too, I think, it's important. I think sometimes, and I think women seem to do this more than men, you expect us to read your mind.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And Nancy and I have been married 52 years, I still can't. Now sometimes I can, I mean, I'm more in-tune with her now after all this, but there's sometimes that I'm totally off base. And, so, I think knowing that it's okay to tell your spouse what you need and what you want.
Then if they don't do that and they said it's realistic, then you can deal with that issue. But at least give them that chance for now because most of the time we're not going to. Because we think differently and we're wired differently.
And I think that is part of the learning process is communicating with your spouse, what you like, what you don't like, all those things, he can't read your mind.
Lindsay: Yeah, I think when I started to let go of that, I don't know where we get that idea. I don't know if it's just because-
Dr. Kim: I think romcoms have a lot to do with it, honestly.
Lindsay: I think they might.
Dr. Kim: Because everything is just supposed to happen.
Lindsay: Yes, and, I mean, maybe part of it's because us, as women, I think with each other, we can be a little more intuitive and I'm not sure what it is, but that was a really a mental block for me. I was bothered that Brian would not read my mind, and could not do it. And when I finally let go of that, it was like, "Okay, it's going to be okay he's not broken, he's fine."
Dr. Kim: He's okay.
Lindsay: He just is a human man, and we're going to have conversations. But I think letting go of that is a great place to start and letting go of those expectations.
Dr. Kim: I do too. Anytime we have an expectation and we haven't talked to our spouse about it. Where they can validate that, say it's realistic or not. Then we've done a disservice to both of you. We're going to be disappointed, and our spouse can then not understand why you're mad at me.
Lindsay: Yeah, that is just not fair.
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Lindsay: So, I think, one follow-up question on this expectations area no, does a person have to say yes every time their spouse wants sex?
Dr. Kim: No, but I think that is where communication comes in.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And to know that it's not to be able to say it in a way that is not personal to your spouse.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: It's like, "I don't like..." but, I mean, it's not in a negative way. It's like, "I would love to, I'm exhausted from the day." Or whatever it is and say, "But tomorrow is a lighter day, what about tomorrow night?
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: That always goes a long way and I think if there is an alternative there.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: If you get in a pattern where you're saying, "No" every night, then I think that's going to cause a problem. But I think we need to be understanding and respectful of our wives, and sometimes I think we don't do that.
The couples I see with a couple of young children two or three children under five or six years old. And if it's a stay-at-home mom or if she's trying to work, and still they've got somebody helping with the kids. But she's going to be worn out by the end of the day. And most likely, at night, when kids wake up the first person they call is mom not dad.
Now dad can go and do just a good job, but I think it falls on the mom. The kids, always, they'd call for mom, it would always wake her up, and it would wake me up too, but I'd act like I was still asleep. Which, I think, we get down really good. But, I think, those are the kind of things where communication comes in.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Where you understand each other and that everything doesn't rest on whether we have sex tonight or not.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Because you could say, "I don't think I can get up to sex, but can we just cuddle. And I would love to fall asleep in your arms cuddling like that."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: So I think it's, again, communicating. Because, I think, if, as a guy, you feel like, "Okay, if we don't have sex now we might never have sex again." Whatever, we get all kinds of weird things in our mind and if we can just say, "You know the big picture, we have a great sex life and we don't have to have sex tonight. Because it's something we're talking about, we're working on, I'm trying to understand her better, and when is the best time for her, because I want to be good for her."
So you begin to think along with those lines, which is so much, I think in sex, you're like in a boxing ring in your separate corners. And you come out and spar for a while and you go back to your rings saying, "What the heck was that about?" And you get into that kind of a pattern as opposed to working together on that.
Lindsay: Yeah, that's a really great point because, I think too, if you've only ever been fighting about it, it's going to take some work to be able to communicate, but it's something that is going to be worth the effort, for sure.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: And, I think, like you said at the top of the episode, too, if you're trying to talk this through and it's not working find a third party, get a counselor, get a trusted mentor. Just take that edge off because it can be hard to learn to neutralize that conversation.
Dr. Kim: Yeah and sometimes it's easier to have those conversations with a third person you trust present that can guide you, can help refine it a little bit. Let you know if they feel like one of you is off base, and he's not listen well to the other person and just helping understand. And, I think, so much of just sex, like most problems in marriage if you communicate well on it, and you listen well to each other, then most of the time you are going to have a solution.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: You just are because you're trying to understand each other. And then all of a sudden your perspective changes a little bit because you see that your spouse has a little bit different perspective than yours. And if you want this marriage to work, long term, you've got to value that.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dr. Kim: And knowing that's what Nancy wants, or feels, or thinks about a sexual relationship is important to me. Because I want that to be good for both of us. And, so, if I just try to push my agenda all the time, and a male view of sex all the time, that's not going to pull her closer to me.
Lindsay: Yeah, that's a really important word that you just said, that you're trying to understand her perspective. Because I think that some of the reason this gets tense sometimes is we're not trying to understand, but we're just trying to get our way.
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Lindsay: And that selfishness can be so polarizing, can really turn us into feeling like we're fighting each other instead of working together.
Dr. Kim: Yep, and then you get frustrated and you think "We can't even talk about sex."
Lindsay: Exactly, and then it's just you can't ever open that door because it is going to be terrible.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, exactly.
Lindsay: Okay, so I think one really important question to address is are there any red flags to be aware of, if you have felt used sexually in your marriage?
Dr. Kim: I think if you feel like you don't feel a connection or you're just going through the motions.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: There's times that we do that, I get that where we do that. But if that's consistent every time and you're just like, "hurry up and get this over with." Then you're not getting out of the sex relationship what you need.
I think, too, if you start avoiding, hiding from sex is what I call it. Okay, if it takes him about 20 minutes to get ready for bed, if I get in bed and get asleep before he comes to bed, then he wouldn't bother me or something like that.
And, so, if you're kind of doing that, if you've got unresolved anger at your spouse or resentments against your spouse. Those, I think, are all going to be things that are red flags, that are going to affect your sexual relationship.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, those are good ones. I think, too, for the spouse who less wants to have sex, I think weaponizing sex, like, using it as a bargaining chip is a red flag on yourself. So look at yourself if you're doing that, and assess yourself, honestly, "Am I using this as a bargaining tool? Am I using it as a weapon?" Withholding it as a weapon, that is a red flag.
I think also any sort of demands made sexually because we are talking about having a healthy conversation, healthy expectations. But if one spouse is not conversing but is making demands, I do not think that that is okay, I think that's a definite red flag.
Dr. Kim: No, absolutely because, I think, God gives a married couple a lot of leeway in the sexual relationship.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: But I think both have to agree with it, and both have to be okay with it. So if I'm pushing an agenda, even though God would say, "What you're wanting to do is okay in marriage." But if Nancy is against that or feels uncomfortable with that, and I'm pushing that. Then that's not healthy and I don't think that's God's plan either it's to figure out what works for both of you, and both of you working to make that happen.
Lindsay: Yes, and I think that on either spouse's part, and this is something you have to look at yourself. But if you're just being selfish about it, if you're saying, "No, I need it. I need it. You got to do it and I need it." That is selfish.
But if you're also saying, "I won't, I refuse over and over." That is also selfish. So we have to look at ourselves honestly and evaluate like, "Is the selfishness driving this? Are we working together?" And if you have had conversations and they are just not well received, I do think that's a red flag.
I think if you really haven't talked about this. If you've been passive-aggressive or if you've just been resentful, I think, you need to really get a conversation going.
But if you've done the best you can to be honest and real with your spouse about this concern, and it's just not worked out. If they have not listened, I think that's a red flag as well.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm, I totally agree. You hit on the deal, I think, of sometimes a wife, and it's usually the wife, withholding sex too because she is mad at the husband, I just think that's unhealthy. It it's more like, "Let's get this problem resolved. Let's not complicate whatever we're upset here and then also complicate our sex life too. Let's work on that, so we can resolve that our sex life can become what it needs to be, again."
Lindsay: Yeah, because I don't think it's fair, even if we've communicated all these expectations and whatnot, our spouse is not able to do the things we want perfectly. So you can't just say, "Well, I'm not going to do it until you check every box." That's not realistic.
Dr. Kim: Right.
Lindsay: So we have to have some fairness and some grace there.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, because you want it to be a reciprocal thing and you want it to be something, I don't want to feel like it's a parent-child relationship. If I'm really good, "I get to have sex." Or, "If I'm really good, I get to have my special dinner." No, we work together on this to try to make it healthy.
Lindsay: Definitely do not want that parent-child relationship.
Dr. Kim: No, and I see some couples that have gotten into that pretty much, that's unhealthy.
Lindsay: Yeah, definitely. So, I think, if you, if you're seeing any red flags or if you are concerned, there's any sort of abuse going on in your marriage, we would tell you to please call the abuse hotline that we'll have in the show notes. We do not believe that has any place in marriage, whatsoever.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: So if you are really on the fence about that, please talk to somebody today and check out those red flags that we're talking about.
Dr. Kim: Yeah.
Lindsay: So if you are a person who knows we need to make this a conversation, not an argument, what are some good ways to approach the conversation?
Dr. Kim: I think you want to talk to your spouse, first, about it.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: So, I think, just the basics of setting a time and a place to talk, where you know you won't be distracted. And, I think, you let your spouse know what the agenda is going to be.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: "Hey, I know we're struggling in this. I feel like you want this to be healthy just as much as I do. I want us to sit down and talk through some of these things, and see if we can get a resolution on it." So you set the time, the place, and then you begin to talk about it. And, I think, you just share from your heart of what you really want this to be.
You can talk together about what God's plan is, and it's a gift. You read Song of Solomon and they're enjoying each other sexually a lot in the book and, so, it's just a part of it, it's a gift. And, so, I think you go through that process and if it goes well, then you continue some of those meetings.
So you feel like you open those conversations, and it may get where you can do those outside of a structured meeting. Maybe it's before you make love or maybe it's that day and say, "Hey, this is something that I was thinking about for our sex life." Or whatever it is. If that doesn't work, if you've tried everything, like you were saying, Lindsay, then I think counseling's the next step.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And obviously you both need to go. But if your spouse won't go, I think, it is okay to go to work on yourself, and talk to the counselor and be honest. Don't go in and say, "My husband's such a jerk, blah, blah, blah." And I'd say, "I'm struggling. I'm not feeling connected and I know I'm not fulfilling that role that God gave me as a wife in the sexual relationship." And, so, you get help for you and see if you change.
So a lot of times, if one person changes, it makes the other person change. Because they can't keep doing the same things, especially, if there is manipulation or things like that going on.
Lindsay: Yeah, that's great. It's definitely a helpful place to hush some things out either alone or together. And, I think, too, you go back to that concept of team language. It's just essential to approach this as a, "WE" not with a blame, not with pointing finger, that is just going to get you nowhere.
And, so, you have to kind of what you said, Dr. Kim, just start the conversation with an intentionality. Sort of set the stage for success. Set yourself up for success. Have no distractions, come in with thoughtfulness, and with not with a chip on your shoulder.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, and if we've got couples listening today that are engaged or seriously dating, I mean, these kind of conversations, if you decide to get married, as you get closer to your wedding day, is a time to begin to talk about these.
"What are our expectations?"
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Maybe go through the book that I mentioned, that we'll put in the show notes. But you've got a chance to begin to define it from day one of your marriage. And, so, I would encourage you to take that step and begin to have those conversations together, or in premarital counseling. Just so that some of the things that Lindsay and I've talked about.
Some expectations we had going into marriage and sex relationship that were unhealthy, or were unrealistic that you can avoid some of those things.
Lindsay: Absolutely, yes, you can start off a lot farther than the rest of us did, that would be great. Oh, well, Dr. Kim, this has been a really helpful conversation, today, about feeling used in sex and I hope helpful and hopeful for people. Do you have any final piece of advice for our listeners today?
Dr. Kim: I think we all need to talk more about our sex life with our spouse, and, hopefully, that spurs you to do that. And even if your sex life is really good have that talk and say, "This is so good, is there anything else that you would like to be a part of it or how do we continue to sustain this? Let's continue to make this the priority that we've made it." Whatever it is. But if you're feeling used, then you got to get that on the table. You've got to begin to talk about that, and get help if you need help.
Lindsay: Absolutely, and, I think, one more thing that I would just encourage you with, before we go, our listeners is that I do think that the enemy loves to isolate us, and to make us think that the things we're struggling with are only ours, nobody else could understand, nobody else has ever experienced this. And, so, that's one of the reasons we're talking about this today, is just to say, if this is something you've struggled with, you're not alone. You're not alone, and you don't need to stay there.
And, so, don't take that bait of thinking that everyone else is doing great, and you're not. Just know this is something that you can move through. God has a plan for you to have a really enjoyable marriage, including your sex life. But it will take some work and owning your expectations, honestly, and having some conversations.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I think a counselor can help you realize if what you're doing, in the situation, isn't unhealthy or not. Because sometimes if you're in a situation with maybe someone who's very narcissistic or something like that. And they can make you feel like it's all your fault, or some gaslighting that can go on in the sexual relationship. That someone that can help you realize, "No, this is not right. This is not normal things need to change." And then you can approach it from that standpoint.
Lindsay: Yeah, that's good, and I feel like from all the things we've talked about today, there is something for everyone. Wherever you are there's room to grow and get that conversation on the table to make it not be contentious. And just to make sure you're in a healthy place because that's what we want to see. We want to see people thriving in their marriages.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: Well, thanks, Dr. Kim, for your wisdom on this. We hope this conversation today has been helpful and hopeful. Please don't hesitate to reach out to us if you have any questions or concerns after listening to today's podcast.
We're always available at info@awesomemarriage.com, or in our DMs on social media.
So thanks so much for sharing your time with us today. Do something awesome for your marriage today.
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