When God Meets Us Where We Are with Eric & Erikah Rivera | Ep. 559

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationships.

Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage podcast, so glad you decided to join us today. I think you're going to love the show today. Eric Rivera and his wife Erikah join us. Eric is the author and the lead pastor and church planter, with his wife, Erikah, of the Brook Church in Chicago. They're national speakers. They contribute to the ministry of Family Life. Eric's new book is Unexpected Jesus: How the Resurrected Christ Finds Us, Meets Us, and Heals Us. I think you're going to love this couple, let's go to the studio now. 

Well, Eric and Erikah, thank you so much for joining us today on The Awesome Marriage Podcast. It's good to see you guys. Thanks for taking time to spend with us today.

Erikah: Thanks so much for having us.

Eric: We're really excited about it.

Dr. Kim: Well, I'm excited to have you guys. So you guys are in Chicago and your church is The Brook Church, and that has been going on for how long now?

Eric: For almost nine and a half years. We planted The Brook in 2013, so it's amazing how time flies.

Dr. Kim: Wow, that's so cool. Yes, that's amazing how quickly it goes, in a church plant that's doing really well. So tell us a little bit about the church and the ministry. How you guys do ministry together there? Because I know we have a lot of people who listen to us that are in ministry together.

Eric: Yes, so we were part of another church before coming here. And God put a real clear call in our lives to leave that church, to plant a new church with their blessing and with the denominational connection, and we stepped foot into this community in 2013. We're both Chicagoans, born and raised, this is home for us. 

And, so, we are in a neighborhood that's not too far from where both of us grew up. And, so, yes, 2013, we launched out the church nine and a half years now, in the making, and we've seen God do some really remarkable, beautiful, things in healing and helping people, and it's been fun doing ministry together. We get to serve in different capacities; we counsel, we teach, it's been a blast.

Erikah: Yes, we dated for a long time, and so it's been just neat, not only in our dating, but then also in our marriage, just to see God just call us to ministry together and that we get to serve Him together. That's been just one of the greatest joys that we get to experience in our marriage.

Dr. Kim: So you guys grew up close together, in the same city. How did you guys meet?

Erikah: Sure, actually, we both attended one of the largest high schools in the City of Chicago and, yet, we met in high school. We met as freshmen, there's a big event every year, in the beginning of the year, where you can sign up for clubs, whichever clubs you want to go to. He was signing kids up for a Christian club called See You at the Pole, you might be familiar with it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.

Erikah: I signed up for See You at the Pole. I was a follower of Jesus. I'm 14, he's 15, and that's the beginning of our meeting and our journey of becoming friends and dating.

Dr. Kim: What a great story. I love that it started young. When did you actually decide that you were going to date? Did it take a while?

Eric: Yes, we met, but didn't really see each other because the school is so big. And, so, she ended up meeting my older brother at a Michael W. Smith concert, of all places, and found out that I went to the same high school as her, and he connected, he told her about me. We ended up meeting in January or February and became boyfriend and girlfriend in March. Which doesn't mean much when you're 15 and 14, but I'm glad for it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, that's cool. So you've said something, you're saying something, Erikah, about being in ministry together. When did you guys know and how did you know that God had called you both to ministry and to do that together?

Erikah: Yes, I feel like that's just been a process and a journey that we were on. But I feel like even in high school, we began to sense just a set apartness that God was calling us to. God calls all His children to be set apart, it just felt like He was doing something unique in both of our hearts, in high school, and just drawing us to Himself. And we're making decisions to follow Him with our lives, and God did that in unique ways through some youth groups that we were in, as well as a summer camp. 

And as we began to say yes to God as individuals, He began drawing our hearts to even informing where we would attend college. Eric knew God was calling him to Bible college. I wasn't so certain and, actually, I tried to resist it because I wanted to make sure I wasn't going somewhere, just that we would be trying to go together, but I felt the same call. And, so, we both attended Bible college, and it was in college that God solidified, "I'm calling you guys in a ministry."

We didn't know what it exactly would look like. But we just felt like we're going to continue to give God our yes, and He just made that more clear throughout our time. And then after college we married, and God made that very clear of where He was calling us into the local church.

Dr. Kim: I love that. I love how you guys were open to God's calling throughout the process, and you let Him just lead you because God does that. Sometimes we throw roadblocks in the way and they don't last very long. But we do try to throw them in and then God always works around that, that's really cool. So how have you seen God work? We talk about in the theme, Unexpected Jesus, how does that work out in your home church?

Eric: When you're in ministry, you are working with people and you realize how much of a mess everybody has, no one's exempt. We're not exempt. The people we're with are not exempt. And what happens when we have messy lives, it's easy to begin to feel, one, that we're the only one or that we are beyond redeemable to be used by God. 

And, so, even as the ideas of this book were coming into formation, I mean, we could really see God just breaking into people's lives, showing up in different kinds of ways to meet them. Whether it be through prayers that they prayed and the Lord said, "I'm with you in that prayer." As they read the Word, having His promises reminded them of His presence. And then through even each other in the church, in our own community. So we've seen God show up for people to restore relationships, to heal marriages, to bring people back to the Lord who strayed away. 

A lot of times you don't realize God is at work, but He is at work, and it's pretty fun to see that in ministry. Where you're realizing, "Oh, wow, God was doing something all along and we had no clue He was doing it." And, so, you do see that unexpected nature of the ways that God works, it's been pretty cool to watch that.

Dr. Kim: Erikah, do you have anything to add to that?

Erikah: Yes, we can just expect that Jesus will show up, and we've been able to see Him do that, within our church. Just in really beautiful ways, like Eric mentioned, just with relationships, with drawing him to Himself, helping people to see, "I need Jesus." 

And, so, it's not a past thing that He has done and He is not presently working in our lives. He does that every day and He draws people to Himself, and He's actively working every day in our lives to show us that we need His grace and we need his mercy daily. And, so, it's just been really neat to see Him do that within our church body.

Eric: Yes, I was meeting up with a guy, not that long ago, and we were praying for him with his kids. Him and the mother of his children are not together, and he was just praying for more opportunities to see the kids. And, so, we were just here in this office and we prayed like, "Lord, would you just create opportunities. Would he do the things he needs to do on his end, and so forth."

Well, just a few days later, God began to open doors for him to spend time with his kids. And he came back few weeks later and said, "Hey, can I meet with you again?" And he walks into my office and he says, "Hey, those prayers work, actually." It was not expected for him, at least, but we know God can do those things. So, yes, just story after story like that, it's really beautiful.

Dr. Kim: Well, I think it is, and it's cool that in the church body there are those stories can be shared and other people can be encouraged. And I know God works in different ways with all of us. But just to know the fact that He is working because sometimes we lose sight of that or we think that He's working [Inaudible 00:09:25] people time. Well, "Yes, He's going to do that for so and so or He did it for them, but he's not going to do it for me." Well, what would you say to someone that says that?

Eric: What happens sometimes we start believing those messages and lies, and it could be the result of our own fears, our own expectations. But I do think it's something that the enemy uses to cause couples to lose hope. And the Bible is just filled with story after story of that very thing not being true. There's no one beyond God's redemptive reach and there's no marriage beyond God's redemptive reach. 

And, so, when people look around and say, "He can't do it for me." Just a short read through stories in the Scriptures we see that there's nobody beyond God's hand, and trying to convince them of that truth, helping them see that is important.

Erikah: Gosh, if we didn't have that hope, where would we be? If we thought anyone was outside of God's reach, or any marriage, or any situation, or any sin was. God is a redeeming God and He's in that business to do that. And, so, we can anticipate, I mean, it may not always look like we want it to look, or as quick, but we can believe and have hope that He wants to redeem and restore. And, so, when we come to God with open hands of saying, "okay, I trust you." He's good like that, we can have that hope. We've seen him do that and He's a redeeming God.

Eric: That's good.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that. I tell people in counseling, I just say that if you just give God a chance, He wants your marriage to work. I mean, that's something we can all agree on and just give Him a chance to come in and see what He does.

Eric: So true.

Dr. Kim: And you're right, He may do it in different ways and one spouse may not like the way God's doing it, but if we just submit to Him, He's going to bring something good out of it.

Eric: Yes, amen to that.

Dr. Kim: He's so good. In the book, you walk through unexpected ways that Jesus has ministered to the disciples, when He was here with them. Is there one disciple that you relate to more than the others, and why?

Eric: Depending on the week you ask that question, there may be a different answer. So sometimes it's grief, sometimes it's confusion, sometimes it's doubt. But I feel like I do often get back to the story of Thomas. For me, personally, I see Thomas in his doubt and I've learned to feel much more empathetic toward Thomas. He's not just a guy who was just refusing to believe, but he's actually a guy who had believed and had been really hurt. He had hoped in Jesus. He had believed that Jesus was the Messiah. 

In fact, there's a story in John when Jesus goes back to Bethany to visit Lazarus's grave. The disciples are like, "We just came from there. They almost killed you, Jesus, when you're in Bethany, now you want us to go back?" And it's Thomas that says, "Well, if we go with Him, we'll die with Him."

I'm thinking, "He's not remembered for that statement." He's not ride or die Thomas, he's doubting Thomas because we remember when he says, "Unless I touch His hands and place my hand in His side, I'll never believe." But I relate to Thomas because he's a man who hoped, so deeply, in Jesus and believed with all his might. And when that curveball happened, at His crucifixion, and then when he missed out on the resurrection appearance, he's very distraught, he's confused by God's will, and maybe a little gun shy to believe. 

And I think there's been times, in ministry, where I've been a little hesitant. Times in my life, in my family, where I'm a little hesitant to believe because I'm afraid to be let down by God. I'm afraid to pray and Him not come through when I expected Him to. So I can see Thomas and say, "His doubt is more sophisticated than sometimes we think and actually not too unlike things I experience in life."

Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that. Because it's easy to just put that label on him and we set him over aside, but all of us have been there, at some time or other, in our walk we just are. The culture we live in, the way the enemy attacks us, all those kind of things. I love when you talk about where he was before, of, "Hey, let's go, we'll die with Him." And then he doesn't believe, and then all of a sudden he's back. And, so, that's a story that a lot of people can relate to, I love that. Erikah, do you have a favorite?

Erikah: Yes, well, as for me, I feel like I can't help but just love the fact that Jesus allowed women to follow Him. One of my favorite, it's a small and it's like, "Why did Luke put this in there?" But in Luke 8:1-3 he just mentions that there were women who followed Jesus. And he mentions Mary Magdalene, how could you not love Mary's story of being freed, and then finding purpose. And just using her gifts now because it says that there were a few women who followed Jesus and used their resources to support His ministry. 

And, so, I just love that. That Mary saw her now freedom from the things that she was oppressed by, when she met Jesus, and now she found purpose in following Him and supporting His ministry. And, so, I just love whenever Mary Magdalene comes up, and I love little pictures of that that we don't always necessarily see or think of. But that these women got to follow Jesus and hear His teaching and support Jesus, and they had great purpose in their lives because of it. I just love that.

Dr. Kim: I do, too, because we do, we don't always think about the women. I mean, we do when it comes to the tomb and the things that we say in the last part of the story. But to know that they were there, and they walked with Him, and they followed Him, and were a part of that. I can't imagine being a man or a woman, either one, and being able to sit at His feet, every day, and listen to Him. That's why we have the Bible, I guess, but, man, that would be so amazing.

Erikah: At a time when that was taboo, that was not acceptable.

Dr. Kim: Yes, women didn't do that, did they?

Erikah: No, and they got to sit at His feet and learn from the greatest rabbi.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and it's cool how Jesus treated women, the way He treated children, and let us know how important everyone is to Him. Not just His disciples, certainly, not just the Pharisees, but everyone. These children, these women that had such an impact, that's really good.

[00:16:22] < Music >

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[00:17:54] < Music >

Dr. Kim: So let me ask another question. Erikah, one thing Eric writes about is God's faithfulness because you have the diagnosis of MS, you may want to talk a little bit about that, and how that has changed your relationship with God?

Erikah: Yes, as Eric was writing, he was just being very sensitive, "Erikah is this something that you feel comfortable with me sharing." And there are parts of our story that we wish we wouldn't have written this way. And at the same time because I believe that God is sovereign, and I believe that all parts of our story, like we said, that God wants to work in, and redeem, and that the hardships and the trials are all with great purpose. 

Even though, oftentimes, we wish that what they produce in us, which is just a faith and a steadfastness, as James talks about, we wish it would come without the hardship. And, so, Eric was very sensitive to ask me if he can share that. And we want God to receive glory through the things that he has revealed to us, and the ways that He has brought us along in a process of faith. 

And, so, yes, in the end of 2017, I received this really difficult diagnosis of MS. After just months of not understanding what's going on with my body. And, probably, besides, also, struggling with infertility and miscarriage some of the hardest seasons in our life.

I know, there's something about knowing. And, so, James talks about knowing that these trials develop perseverance and steadfastness. There's something about, yes, you can know that, you can profess that, but until that becomes something that we're living out, it feels like, "How do we even make sense of the ways that God uses them in our lives?" And I feel like in some of the ways that God has used hardship, for me, for us, has been not just saying, "Lord, I don't want this but your will be done." 

When that becomes something that we can actually say and, actually, with our whole body and faith. We begin to grow, exponentially, in our trust of God, and saying, "Even if you don't, I will trust you. Even if this doesn't come to pass, I believe that you're still good. And I believe that this, even though I wouldn't have written it like this, I don't understand it, but I believe that you're good."

I believe that a lot of this has been parts of our life and experience that we would not be where we're at, had we not experienced some of the toughest times. And, so, those are some of the ways of just clinging to God in the midst of what we've experienced.

Dr. Kim: A really difficult situation. I'll go back, so, Eric, when you heard that Erikah had the MS what is the husband in that role? What went through your mind? What did you feel just to share? Because we get a lot of people that send us prayer for one spouse is being diagnosed with something. And, "What do I do?"

"How do I come alongside my spouse?"

"Why did God do this to us?" What went through your mind at that time?

Eric: Yes, it was, undoubtedly, the scariest time of my life. Because for a while, we didn't know what was going on, and as they began to narrow down potential answers to that question, they were slowly ruling out the things we were hoping it would have been. 

And, so, you start seeing that list shrinking, and you're like, "Okay, with every appointment, it's getting narrower." And there came a point, early on, she just knew in her heart that she had multiple sclerosis and, so, that whole lead up was very hard. So by the time we got the diagnosis, it was like, "All right, we knew this was coming." 

But what was so hard, for me, were just all the unknowns attached. There were things happening to her, physically, that you start wondering, "Is this the new normal?" There were certain limitations. There were, yes, it's just the beginning of more to come. 

And, so, all these questions flood your mind, and then there are times, to be very truthful, we're saying, "God, we're trying to be faithful to you, we didn't need this in our life right now. This can be a real challenge for us. 

Do you really want us to be challenged like this? Lord, I know you're good and faithful, but this doesn't quite line up as easily as other things seem to line up at times." And, theologically, you've got your ducks in a row, you know God works through trials. And "Count it all joy," and quote all the verses, and I believe them 100%. But when you're in it that heart to head connection is difficult. 

So, for me, just praying, just trying to allow the Lord to refine me so that then I can better serve her and our children. But there are a lot of spiritual questions. A lot of just our marriage, like, "What's this going to look like?" And those are extremely hard realities. 

It did gave me a sense of perspective, though, because it reminded me just to appreciate everything in life. You just never know what kind of hardships come your way. And it also allowed us to feel a sense of, maybe, a little more kingdom mindedness in our marriage, not that there wasn't before. But God has a plan for us, and right now it's through this hardship and trial, but He's going to use it, we believed it. 

And, so, it allowed us to just say, "God, our lives are in your hands. Whether in sickness or in health, it's in your hands." And, so, those are some of the things that I know I wrestled with as a husband, as I tried to just gain my bearings in order to best care for my wife and our children.

Dr. Kim: Yes, because it had to be difficult and then all the unknowns and the questions that come with that. I know our pastor talked about a time that he went through that with a disease that one of his children had, and he said, "Honestly, I just cried out to God, 'Why me? I'm your servant. I've been doing what you want me to do, and now I've got to deal with this.'" And, yet, again, how God used that in their marriage, and in their life, and everything, but those are hard things, especially, when they come. 

So how has that impacted your marriage? Both from your position, Eric, and for Erikah's, what is the effect all this had on your marriage?

Eric: Yes, I think along those lines of perspective, I know, for me, it forces me to live the way God wants us to, and that's with an open hand saying, "Lord, all that I am, and all that I have, and all that we are is in your good and gracious hand. And I can't control it nor should I try, so, Lord, it's in your hands."

And, so, I feel like there is a kind of intimacy we've been able to experience that we would not have been able to experience, had we not gone through that trial and still live with this reality. Just loving one another in ways that we need in those moments of trial, so I know that that's helped. I've learned to do that in new ways and seeing God work in that way, that's some of the initial thoughts I have with that question. 

Erikah: Yes, for me, it's definitely been a reality of we say, "For better, for worse, for richer, for poor, in sickness and in health." But you don't imagine that the worst and the sickness will come, and at the same time it's been an opportunity. So either we were going to grow apart and be frustrated with the grief that we're experiencing. The ways that we process things differently. The way that we just handle things emotionally, or even just the fact that this is here. It was like, "What are we going to do now? Are we going to lock arms and face this together?"

Because marriage can be a gift in that we're not alone, and we can lock arms and just call out to the Lord and seek Him for the strength that we need in this and do that together. Or we're going to grow apart and it's going to be difficult to know how to handle this. And I'm grateful that God in His grace and, I think, in some of the ways that we had already been building relationship, personally, with the Lord, and then together. 

Those were the things that helped forge our marriage in the most difficult time in our lives. And, then, because we've been able to cling to the Lord in it, we have experienced an intimacy that we didn't have. And, too, I agree with your kingdom mindedness, I think, we've been like, "Okay, God, just let us see this life as you've given us this opportunity to live for you and you've allowed us this marriage to reflect who you are." 

That's what marriage is supposed to be and, so, let's do this. And, so, if you want to use our story, use our story. And, so, it's the open hand that He's continuing to help shape us in.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. And I love that you mentioned earlier, Erikah, that it was a choice. That you knew you had a choice how you would handle this, and would you let this tear you apart or are you going to let God use it to pull together, and a lot of couples struggle with that. And, yet, your story, God's showed up. He's been there for you guys. He's helped you through this, which is so cool.

Eric: I think there were times, I know, where we just had to talk about it. We had to just voice our fear and that's the scariest thing, is to voice the fear because you don't want to give it any validity. But, then at the same time, you realize "But it's here. Whether I'm talking about it or not it's in me, so if I just hold it in, it could eat me up."

But if we talk about it, it allowed us to be able to love each other better. Because, now, I know what she feared better and she understood what I feared. Because, sometimes, we felt like, "I want to protect you. I don't want you to know what I'm afraid of because I don't want to burden you because I know you've already got a lot." And, yet, when we were able to talk together, we were able to really love each other better and trust the Lord together better.

Erikah: I know, because, then, that talking about it, we both realized, again, we need the Lord. And, so, after talking, after having hard conversations of crying and expressing our fears, we would then pray, and it would be a reminder that, "God, we need you in this. We cannot do this without you." And we see that God was continuing to forge us in that and bring us along in beautiful intimacy in that, so that we could say "We're even grateful for the grief, and the ugliness, and the hardship." And that's only by God's grace that we can even say that.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and you just see God work in the midst of that, in powerful ways. And you had hope, you mentioned that earlier, Eric, and you said you had the hope because of Him. Not knowing exactly what He was going to do, but trusting Him in that, yes, that's so good. 

Let's go back, a minute, to a question I had about the disciples and examples of them. God used those examples of disciples, Eric, both of you, probably, to influence your ministry and your marriage. What happened there?

Eric: Yes, well, when we look at the life of the disciples and we see what they go through, Erikah was talking about Mary Magdalene. She has that great honor of being the first person to see the resurrected Jesus, and then the first person to carry that message to someone else. 

I mean, and she does so, in the moment, though, coming to the tomb fully expecting to find a corpse, a body, death, but instead, she finds life, she finds the resurrected Jesus. And what we learn in her story is that there is purpose even in our pain. That God has a plan in place, even when we are confused by that plan. 

And, so, Mary's example and Mary's experience has helped me know that no matter what comes our way, God continues to work. He's working in ways I may not see, I may not know, but I know He's doing it. I know He's doing something. And, so, Mary didn't know what to expect at the tomb, other than a body that she was going to anoint with spices and herbs. But she hears a voice from the one that had rescued her from her demons. And, so, yes, the fact that God has a purpose and a plan, in the midst of our pain, is a point of comfort for me.

Dr. Kim: I agree.

Erikah: I just love with the disciples that Jesus loves to meet them, particularly, wherever they're at, and use where they're broken the most. And, so, I know Eric points this out in the book really well, but just the fact that even with Peter. 

Peter that denied Jesus three times and went back to fishing and probably felt no purpose, and here Jesus meets him right there and gives him, where Jesus is calling him to respond to him, three questions that really meet him where he's at. And it's just a reminder that Jesus still does that, and Jesus is so personal and God is not a far off God. He's very near to us and wants to do that. 

And, so, I just love the pictures of that throughout the Scriptures, and Jesus is so intentional. And, so, we can expect that He wants to be intentional with us, whether it's opening up the word and we can say, "It's living and active, and I know you have something for me today." And He's so good to do that. We've read something many times, but no, "Today it was fresh and I needed that word." And, so, yes, I just love the fact that Jesus does that with all of the disciples.

Dr. Kim: I love the questions He asks. I love the way He approached people and just to know that He does that for all of us. I've had people that think that Jesus doesn't want anything to do with them, and it's such a lie that the enemy gets people to believe. Because there's no asterisk on that that says, "Yes, I love everybody but this person." It's not, it's all of us. So good. So have you ever experienced God revealing a part of your heart, that you felt you were struggling to submit to Christ?

Erikah: All the time. 

Eric: All the time-

Erikah: I mean, I just feel like anything that I want to hold on to. Whether I feel like, particularly, even, with this diagnosis I was like, "No, God, that wasn't my plan for the future. That wasn't what I had planned out." 

And, so, I feel like it's just a constant, "Erikah, are you willing to surrender that to me? Your plans, what you feel like you have in your control?" 

And a lot of times it's a misconception that I even have control. But, for me, oftentimes, it's surrounded by surrender and my willingness surrender what I desire and my future. But I feel like that's something He's often calling me to.

Eric: I was thinking of I know that there have been times in my life, there's one time in particular where I really felt the Lord was exposing the fact that it'd become hard for me to pray big prayers. It was difficult to pray big prayers, and I was realizing that that stemmed from having prayed big prayers and not feeling like God had answered those prayers. 

And, literally, years later, I found myself just reluctant to pray for Him to intervene in a situation where we knew He needed to do it, but I felt a pause about it. And as the Lord was really exposing my heart, He was revealing the fact that I had become hesitant to pray because, as I mentioned with Thomas, there was getting hurt. Where you feel like, "God, I expected you to come through and you didn't come through. So I don't know if I can quite expect to do that again in the same way."

So next time he prays, it's a little bit less faith in it, and then a little bit less, and then a little less. And, over time, I know I've seen it build up in my heart where I've just been very withdrawn in some ways in prayer. 

I could think of a specific time, years ago, where God just blew that wide open and said, "Hey, I didn't answer the prayer that one time the way you wanted me to. But that didn't mean that I didn't answer it, that I didn't have a plan, I didn't have a purpose, I wasn't working. And, so, I need you to keep trusting me no matter what the request is because I'm good, I'm faithful."

And, so, that's something I know I've had to learn to submit to Christ is, "Lord, I'm holding on to your character, even if I find myself afraid to pray with faith. Because I'm going to believe in who you are, no matter how this thing pans out." So that's something I know the Lord has revealed to me and wants to keep stretching me in.

Dr. Kim: That's so good, it's so powerful. Because, I think, we've all had those times that we just think, "What was going on, God, why didn't you answer it? I don't think you answered it." And to know that He's always working, like you said, is so important for us to keep that in perspective. I think it's hard, sometimes, when we don't understand, but He is God and we're not. 

And, so, there will be things that we don't understand. Somebody told me, one time, if we could understand everything about God He really wouldn't be God. And I thought, "Yes, that makes sense, then, He would you just like us. But He does so much more than that."

So people listening today that are touched by this and want to do a better job of encountering Jesus in unexpected situations. What would you say to them? How can we do a better job of making ourselves available for that?

Eric: Such a good question. Well, with each of the resurrection appearances, what strikes me is no one is out looking for Jesus, He just shows up. Mary's looking for a dead body, but she hears her name spoken. The guys are out fishing on the seashore, looking for fish, not looking for Jesus. The men on the road to Emmaus are there talking about what they're here. No one's looking for Jesus but He's there, though, in each of these situations. 

And, so, what I would want to tell that person is, look, look around. Look for where God is at work. And maybe you might feel like He's abandoned you. Maybe you feel like He is not present, but we have seen time and again, He actually is and, sometimes, we don't slow down enough to look. 

We might be looking for Him to come and show up in a particular way, and He's just calling us to look for Him. And we'll see Him showing up through the Scriptures that we're reading, through times of prayer. Through the way the Spirit works within our hearts, the way God surrounds us with faithful believers. And, so, I would say, look, listen, and just know that though it may feel like He's not around, He actually is and He's quite near to us.

Dr. Kim: That is so good.

Erikah: So good, yes, I was going to say that, it's just the knowing and maybe we don't know. And, so, maybe, it is just saying like, "God, I don't know if you're near but I want to sense." Even though those type of prayers are invitations and Jesus is so good to want to meet those invitations. And, so, I would say even begin with that prayer of, "I want to know that you're near."

"I want to see you." Because Jesus is very real and God is. We can know from His Word that, "He's near to the broken hearted" and that He wants to meet us. And, so, we can even give those small prayers, even if we don't know that we fully are there, and God wants to meet us there. Yes, He's very near that. 

Dr. Kim: I love that, that He is, and I guess we can just say, "Help." I mean He knows what's on our hearts. He knows what we need. And to know that he's right there to be there for us, to me, it's a joy, it's a comfort, it's hope. It's all those things rolled into who our Savior is for us, in so many ways.

Eric: And it's an invitation, that's the beautiful thing. It's an invitation. He doesn't just reveal Himself just to inform us that He's there, it's an invitation to commune with Him, to experience Him, to walk with Him, to know Him. He's just so kind to us like that. 

I was thinking about Peter, the way he denies Jesus and Jesus invites him right back into discipleship, "Follow me." And, so, not just when you're not expecting it, but even when you don't feel like you deserve His nearness He's still near, and inviting us back into Him.

Erikah: Even when you're done with you, Jesus is not done.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I'm so glad you said that, when we don't feel like we deserve it. Because we all, at times, are there and we don't but that's the good news of the gospel. He did something for us that we don't deserve, that we did nothing to deserve, but it's out of his love. It's so powerful and so good. So let's wrap up with the last question, about you guys. What are you loving about your marriage today?

Eric: I'll let you go first.

Erikah: Gosh, I love the fact that we are still partners in ministry. We're partners, we enjoy our companionship together, getting to live life together. I'm grateful that almost 20 years of marriage and it's a joy to be on a journey together through the good, the bad, the hard, sickness, and in health, and I enjoy that we get to do it together. We're better together.

Eric: Yes, 100%.  I would affirm that 100%. I would add it's fun to be able to pour into other marriages together. We talked about the diagnosis. In the book I talk about other hardships, things that we've gone through, and that life experience helps us be of better help to others who are coming behind us. But we don't always get to choose what those life experiences are, they come to us. 

But if we're able to take a step back, say, "Lord, you have shaped our story, you've molded every aspect of who we are, for a purpose. Now we can love and show this with other people." That's something that's really impactful. 

And, so, that's been fun part of our marriage, is to look back over our almost 20 years of marriage. See all the things we've learned; all our failures, all our joys, things we've celebrated, and then be able to sit down with other couples, to teach other couples, to pray for couples and just offer them hope. And be able to say, "God is faithful He'll hold you down. We've seen Him do it for us, we've seen Him do it for others, just keep running to Him." So it's fun serving side by side as it is doing life side by side.

Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good. Yes, and the fact that you guys, people going to look at you and think, "Well, look at this perfect couple, they just got everything going." But when you can sit down and relate stories to them, and relate what God's done in your life and how God has walked through things with you that brings hope to people and encouragement. 

It's so cool how God uses the experiences, some of them that we hate, but then we see Him use those through us with other people. And it's like, "Okay, it wouldn't have been my choice, but, yes, I'm okay with that because God used it."

Erikah: Yes, it's so true. One of my favorite things that Eric says, often, because you said, sometimes, it seems like things are perfect, and we need to communicate that there is no picture-perfect marriage. But as he has said before, but every marriage is meant to point to the picture that is perfect, which is God. 

And, so, when we get to do that as a couple, there's great joy there. Because we're doing what God has called us to do, and there's great satisfaction there. And, so, that's why when you ask that question, it is a great joy to be able to do this together, and to know that we're fulfilling the call that God has called us to here.

Dr. Kim: Yes, powerful, so good. Thank you guys for your time. The book is Unexpected Jesus: How the resurrected Christ Finds Us, Meets Us, and Heals Us, it's available everywhere. And if people want to connect with you guys, what's the best way for them to do that?

Eric: Well, we're on social media, and my handle in Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter are the same. It's Dr. Eric Rivera, D-R-. Eric Rivera, so you can find me there on social media.

Erikah: And mine is Erikah Rivera but it's E-R-I-K-A-H Rivera on Instagram.

Dr. Kim: That's cool. And the church for people in the Chicago area it's The Brook Church?

Eric: Yes, it's The Brook Church.

Dr. Kim: And it's okay if someone drops in just to visit?

Eric: A 100%, yes, it's great. We have a YouTube channel where we stream our services as well. If you're looking for a home church, we'd love to have you here. If you want to pop in and say hi, we'll take that.

Dr. Kim: That's great. Thank you guys so much for spending time today, I appreciate you both.

Eric: It's been an honor; we appreciate it so much.

Erikah: Thank you.

Dr. Kim: Thank you.

[00:46:10] < Outro >

Announcer:Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.