How Does Porn Affect a Marriage? | Ep. 560

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

Today on the Awesome Marriage Podcast, we're talking about the effects of porn on a marriage. Is it ever okay?

Is this something that can ever be used safely or legitimately? 

Today we're going to answer those questions and talk about the effects of porn on a marriage. So we have to start out first by defining porn because these days it is not limited to an adult video store or a specific magazine. It is widely accessible. It's in a lot of unsuspected places, and a lot of people view it as just entertainment. So, Dr. Kim, how are we going to define porn for our purposes, today?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think it's any sexual subject matter that the intent of it is to cause sexual excitement or arousal, and in a lot of ways that's defined by the user. I mean, I've had people that were addicted, their porn was something that, in other words, just for example, there's a guy that I worked with years ago. And growing up his grandparents got the old Sears Roebuck Catalog. 

Well, this is a catalog that had a bunch of stuff and it had pictures of women in their bras, that was his porn. And that continued to be what was porn for him, and that wasn't intended to be sexual. But, for him, it became sexual because that's what he was exposed to as a kid of 13, 14. And, so, sometimes it is defined by the user, but most of the porn that we see today in our culture is definitely intended to cause arousal, sexual excitement, things like that. But it, certainly, in my opinion, doesn't have to be limited to something. It's a lot of how we define it in our own minds.

Lindsay: Wow, that's a really good point, and I wasn't expecting that Sears Roebuck Catalog.

Dr. Kim: Does everybody know what that was? Long time ago, there was a big store called Sears Roebuck, and that was before we had internet, all that stuff. So they sent this huge catalog every year, in the fall, for Christmas. I can remember my grandmother giving it to me the toy section and "Circle things you like in it." That kind of thing. We did that with our kids, probably, with the Toys "R" Us Catalog and now that's not around anymore, so anyway.

Lindsay: No. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think something like that, it's very easy to see how that could have been an issue for somebody.

Lindsay: Yes, sure, and I think it's a good thing to remember. It's not new, it's been around, but it is a lot more accessible because we have so many places. It seems like, from what you're saying, anywhere that there could be images shared or published there could be potentially porn. And, so, obviously, we have a ton of places we could find it now. 

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes.

Lindsay: Any platform on the internet and it's impossible to avoid that, it's out there.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it's interesting when you said it's been around forever. I can remember looking at something, I was studying some stuff. I was doing an archeological type thing and the professor that was teaching it was just talking about the sexual depictions that were etched in a cave wall. 

Lindsay: Oh, wow. 

Dr. Kim: I mean, there was what we would consider porn on there, people having sex. Back then, I guess, the only place you could do is go to a cave. Now you just pull your phone out or whatever. 

Lindsay: Yes, so that's a great definition, and I like that there's a little bit of a challenge in there, too because it could be something unexpected. It could be something that a person is using, even if it wasn't intended to elicit that response. And, so, then, we'd have to define that ourselves and really search ourselves. It also could be something that's overtly sexual and, obviously, intended to arouse and there's plenty of both of those.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and the one that I mentioned with the catalog or something like that, it's easy for someone to say, "Well, is that really porn? Because it's not like this other stuff that people are calling porn." Well, it goes back to what you just said, it's what's in our heart. Are we looking at it that way? 

Are we lusting over that? 

Is that causing sexual arousal in us?

And, so, it doesn't have to be what the world might consider porn to be porn for us.

Lindsay: Yes, that's certainly true. And I think about things like, in my world, in my beach town, where we live, there's a lot of surf magazines, and you'll see bikini ads in there and stuff like that. That we're going to want to rip that out before the boys read that in my house. 

It also brings me to think about in Matthew, when Jesus talks about what lust is, what adultery is, and He says that, "Everyone's heard 'Don't commit adultery.' But also when you have lust in your heart and you're looking at somebody with that view, that is also adultery." 

And it's one important piece of this is there's an objectification piece to it, that we'll get more into. But there is that's dishonoring and exploiting another person. Objectifying a person is never in line with God's purposes because people are all human, all created in God's image.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, and that's such a good point because it really does, and a lot of times, guys that I work with are single, addicted to porn and think, "Well, when we get married, well, I won't have to use porn anymore." But then they see how it affects their marriage, how they begin to look at their spouse. Looking at her, not in developing sex the way God intended it, but almost she becomes the object, "Because I'm not looking at porn anymore." And she becomes. There are so many things that go along with it, and it can complicate relationships, make it complicated for us, there's no redeeming value in it.

Lindsay: Yes, no, there's definitely not. It is not in line with God's heart for people at all.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and people go, "Well, so Jesus was a prude." Well, He wasn't and He created sex, anyway.

But I think what Jesus is saying, "Man, this is not good either. Don't just define that by this, it really goes back to what maybe go inside of you that nobody sees that you, but that's affecting your heart. That's affecting who you are and how your actions and words are going to be.

And, so, it's just Jesus looking deeper into us because He knows us so well, because He created us to know that's dangerous, too, and it's not going to be good for you.

Lindsay: Absolutely, so this begs a question, if one spouse is using porn, is that always going to affect their marriage or can it just say private, something they do on their own?

Dr. Kim: I think, from my perspective, in marriage it's deceit. You're hiding something from your spouse, and hiding it doesn't keep it from affecting your marriage. It creeps into your sex life into your marriage. I've had guys that try to do both, and then they're in a sex relationship with their wife, and then they're visualizing someone else, that was in this porn that they watched. And, then, what they see in that porn, and it definitely is just another person is just an object to be used. 

And, so, to make that transition to your marriage, I just think it causes so many problems. I've never seen, in my experience, anyone that viewed porn on a regular basis that had a great sexual relationship in their marriage,

Lindsay: Hmm, never?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I can't think of any of them like that.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, I mean, if one person is keeping that a secret, like you're saying, it is deceit. And if the goal, if anything that we're doing is to not let our spouse know about it, 

that is going to create, first of all, a barrier between us, but also between God. Because being dishonest is always going to start cutting us off from the Holy Spirit and conviction. 

And, so, I think, I've heard people describe if you were to get caught doing the worst thing you could get caught doing, it's actually the best thing for you because it sets you free from that deceit. And, so, in this situation, if you're talking about like, "Well." The best thing would be to have no deceit and no secrets. But then if you were trying to keep it secret, the next best thing would be to get caught. So you don't have to have that secret and that wall dividing you.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, you're right, it's there, it's a wall. It's a division between you, even if your spouse doesn't know. And most of my experience has been that you, eventually, get caught. I don't know whether we get careless or maybe we want to get caught, wherever, I'm not going to the psychology of that. And then you get caught and, then, you got to deal with that with your spouse. That if you're honest with them, then, they may find out you've been doing this for years, in your marriage, and how does that affect them? 

How does that make them feel, that they weren't good enough for you? Which usually is where a woman goes with it. That "I wasn’t never good enough for you, so you went to this." And, so, it always affects a marriage, in my opinion. 

Lindsay: Yes, so you've mentioned some of the impacts. Are there any other ways that it impacts a marriage or the other spouse?

Dr. Kim: I think it takes our focus off each other. It does, like I said, it makes a wife wonder why her husband looks at that when he has her. And I've had this almost exact word said by almost, probably, 90% of the women that I've worked with in a marriage situation where the husband was into pornography. I think it takes the beauty out of sex. God gave it, it is a gift and porn's not part of that. I mean, it's just not part of that gift. So you really look at what does God have for you? What is this gift He's given us with sex and marriage?

Why is it different in marriage than outside of marriage, or pornography, or things like that distort it? Because that's not part of God's plan. God's plan is a husband and wife together receiving that gift together, enjoying each other. Well, you don't need porn in the middle of that.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's a good point, because we're speaking to both spouses in this. And, so, the one who's been betrayed by the porn use is going to be really hurt, and I've seen that a lot. It's really hard to overcome. From what I've heard, it feels similar to having been cheated on because it feels like it's this completely outside thing that I didn't know was part of our relationship. And now it's been on the side, it's been hiding, and finding out about it, that's devastating.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think most women, when they find out that use Jesus' definition, that it's same as adultery to them, very much so. And Jesus knows how things like that affect us. 

And I know we're talking about men going outside, but, still, the majority of people that use porn, especially, the visual type, are men. And, so, I think, that's where it lands most of the time.

Lindsay: Although, the gap is closing, statistically speaking, which is not great. I mean, there's not a good statistic there.

Dr. Kim: No, and there we get, and you can speak to this Lindsay, as a woman. But it seems like the women I see, it's more the romance novels or the things like 50 Shades of Gray. Or it's something like that that still has a little bit of maybe romance to it, in addition to whatever else is more explicit.

Lindsay: I had some exposure to lighter porn at some points, earlier when I was younger, as a teen, and I was just so put off by it. It just made me feel... I was shocked, I was very caught off guard. And it was in a social setting where I was like, "This is super weird. Super strange to me." I felt incredibly uncomfortable, and I didn't really want to have that feeling again. 

I had, certainly, temptations to deal with stuff like that, at other times, but it just was such an off-put experience to me. That all those books and stuff, that's not something I've ever wanted to really dabble in because there were some very chaste types of romance novels that I enjoyed when I was getting married, and around the time of getting married. Some were really wonderful Christian books actually. 

But because of the way that I was tempted to make those storylines a fantasy to compare Brian against, I was like, "This is not healthy for me." So I realized some books that were great books, there's nothing explicit, there's nothing bad about the book. But, for me, it goes back to our definition that we started with. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. 

Lindsay: It was a temptation to lust or fantasize over an ideal of a fictional situation, and to think that my real life marriage wasn't as good because it wasn't fulfilling that fictional character. 

Dr. Kim: That's a really good point because you're setting up, it's almost like we set something up as this model that nobody could ever live up to. But when you're writing, you can make that person into whatever you want that person to be. And, so, yes, that makes total sense. 

Lindsay: Yes, and I'm glad I had to work that out because when you asked the question and named the titles you named, my head wasn't there because I haven't done that. But then I had to connect the dots to like, "Oh, yes, you can use legitimate things like the Sears Roebuck Catalog or like Redeeming Love, the novel and use it in an illegitimate way, if it is causing a fantasy or a lust.

Dr. Kim: Right, even though it may not have been intended to do that. In writing, sometimes, it's part of the storyline, I get that. But what you did is what, I think, sometimes, it's hard for us to do or we don't do, and that is to say, "This is not good, I don't need this." And to really make that decision to step away from it.

Lindsay: Yes, it was pretty clear to me how even though this was fine for a lot of people, other people to read, and it was not explicit or anything, it still was harmful, and I realized my marriage had a lot going against it already. And, so, we didn't need any more things, so I better cool it. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's a really good point, I don't know, it'd be interesting, I have not really dealt with many women that have deal with this, very few. But I know it's a growing issue and, probably, will begin to see it more pop up in the counseling room, too.

[00:14:34] < Music >

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[00:16:12] < Music >

Lindsay: I would love to talk about some common myths of pornography. One of the listener questions we have gotten talks about a spouse who is thinking they're doing a spouse a favor by using porn instead of asking for sex, so I feel like that's one myth. Is that a favor? I think we've been pretty clear that it's not

Dr. Kim: No, one, because I think it's just such a cheap imitation for one thing. When you have the real thing that God gave you, why would you go to a cheap imitation.

Lindsay: Yes, so what are some of the other myths? I feel like there are quite a few.

Dr. Kim: Well, I think, if you just look at sitcoms or things like that, where they talk about it looks like everybody does it, it's harmless, we laugh at it, it's funny, but it doesn't show the consequences of sin. It doesn't show what happens to that person as they get in a relationship, or as they get married, or things like that. 

I was, as I was doing some research for this, amazed at how many articles that were on the internet that were positive about porn. And then you look at the source and you think, "Oh, yes, well, I see why that's where they're coming from." One, it wasn't a Christian perspective and it wasn't even a health perspective. And I think that things are out there, though, those lies that we can believe as truth, and they want us to believe those lies as truth. 

And, I think, it's just another place the enemy is doing a lot of things right now in the area of sexuality, pornography, things like that. Things that we see all the time in counseling, that we hear our friends are dealing with or couples are dealing with. So that's all there, and really I can't think of anything that's positive about porn, obviously. I mean, you just can't think of anything, and I know there is someone out there, maybe who will disagree with that, but write me, let me know. I'll be open-minded, if you really think it is, let me know.

Lindsay: Yes, I mean, I feel like I've seen that perspective represented more and more, also, and I can't figure out where that really lands. Because when you get to the bottom of it, I don't think there's anything redeeming. But, I think, one of the big myths that really hits me wrong is that it doesn't hurt anyone. We'll get into a little bit more about the impact on the user. 

But also it is, certainly, impacting the spouse, and it's really important to talk about the fact that it hurts the person who has been acting in the porn. And that is something that I feel like there's been some cultural pushback to say, from some of the people who are part of producing them, "No, we want to do this, this is empowering for us." And I don't know about that perspective, that may be the case for some. But there are many who did not get into it on purpose. Who are trafficked, smuggled, who are doing that against their will, who have been coerced, who have been given no option to say no. 

And, so, in all those situations, there's a person, essentially, they could be raped on camera. There's a lot of ways that this is very harmful for the people you are viewing. And, in addition, just by watching, you're objectifying them, you're adding to this billion-dollar industry. You're adding to the demand for more because people aren't just watching one. So I think that that idea that you could keep it separate, or secret, or something like that, it's still already harmed somebody before it's gotten to you. So that's completely a myth I think we need to bust.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I agree. It's interesting what you said, when you're talking about if someone was actually being raped or something like that. I think they're, I don't know how to say this, I haven't really thought about it until you said, but there's different levels of porn. There are things like if it involves someone getting hurt or those kind of things, that's a different level than just a sex act or a person without clothes on, something like that. 

And, so, if you're looking at those things where someone's being hurt, how does that affect you? Do you want to carry that over into your marriage or to a relationship? And, so, I think, it complicates it there. And one of the things, I think, addictive enough is porn is for a lot of people, it goes to step one, two, it's like with, maybe, some drugs. 

You start with a minor drug and, all of a sudden, you're hooked on something really bad. Well, same thing with porn, some people it seems like, "Well, that doesn't satisfy any more so I'll go to this level and this level." And where do you end up, and it's not going to be good.

Lindsay: Yes, and I've heard it compared to a drug a lot of times, and a lot of that's based on a lot of new research that's coming out. I mean, there's pages of documentation that are confirming a lot of these mental factors that go into it, that it does hit your brain like a drug. 

You want more and you want harder stuff. And, also, there's some other things, there's a lot of indications that it's being used as like a coping technique. Maybe you feel stressed or overwhelmed in your life, and, so, you turn to porn as an outlet, and I've not been addicted to anything except for food. I did suffer from a food addiction for a long time, and having that, it was like I had no skills in my toolbox to deal with big feelings, except for to, literally, stuff it down. 

Dr. Kim: Just to stuff it down.

Lindsay: Yes, and, so, speaking to that I know because, in researching for this topic, I read a lot about how there is that component of it. It's like, "This is the only way I know how to deal with feelings that are too big and scary, is go to this old familiar thing." And, so, I could understand that impulse, but when I was in that addiction, I felt awful about it every second, all the time. And, so, then, if you only have one coping mechanism and it's the thing that you feel awful about, where does that leave you?

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely and knowing if that is there you need to reach out and get help. If you feel like you're in that trap, get someone that can help you because a lot of us don't know. We cope and, all of a sudden, maybe it was porn was there when someone was in their teens or whatever, and they used that and that became a habit of the way to deal with it. 

But you don't have to stay in that cycle, you can break that cycle and learn how to deal with stress or pain in a healthy way, a much better way for you. So, yes, you're right, it does hurt you, there's shame involved just because it's not God's plan. 

I mean, if you were in a church and the pastor said, "Hey, all you porn users stand up, today." I mean, what are you going to do? In that situation there is some shame in that, and I don't think any pastor is going to do that. 

But there is that shame with that, and we push that aside and we downplay that, or some people I've worked with really feel the shame, and after using porn they feel guilt, and shame, and dirty, and "Never do it again." And, yet, unless you really take some steps, unless God works a miracle, you're probably going to do it again because it's addictive to you. And, so, it's that love-hate relationship that you get with porn. And each time you go through that you go down a little farther.

Lindsay: Yes. I mean, there's just the fact that anything kept secret is going to stay strong. Anything that we expose, like in the book of James, in the Bible, tells us that "When we confess, we're healed."

And, so, there's something healing about not letting things stay secret. And, so, for most people, like you said, yes, if the pastor says that on Sunday, they would not be standing up. But, realistically, statistically, it would be a lot of people.

Dr. Kim: Right, statistically it probably would be 3/4 of the congregation. If you were really honest about, if you ever looked at porn, in your life, it probably would be 100% or 99 something, even if it was inadvertent. And the stats now keep getting lower of a boy's first introduction to porn and it was at 11, then I saw something, not too long ago, that had it at eight.

And, so, I think, it's just not, it's just because the prevalence and the ease of it. And sometimes kids are very innocent and that's why you've got to monitor them on internet and all kinds of things like that because they could, very innocently, type something in and something come up that you don't want them to see. 

Lindsay: Oh, yes, absolutely. Yes, and, then, if they know that this is something embarrassing or shameful, they're not going to want to talk about it, and then there you have that shame cycle.

Dr. Kim: Exactly.

Lindsay: Yes, were there any other mental health impacts that you know about or have seen?

Dr. Kim: I think depression, and it just goes along with that, all those kind of things. I think anxiety, whether it's anxious "I'm going to get caught" or anxiety about that. And the things that we talked about women as objects, disordered view of sex, all goes in and that just complicates us getting to God's plan for sex. And what that really is and what that gift is because the pornography is so far away from that, in so many ways. So those are there, but I think there's very real mental health issues that come along with that.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, certainly, so. I'm wondering, so we've talked a lot about how this impacts the marriage and the person using it and all these things. But we also know and believe that God wants to heal and restore. So for the person who has been stuck in this addiction or in this cycle, what is a first step? How do they get out?

Dr. Kim: I think you, your first step is, like in everything else, AA has it right, you got to admit you got a problem. You've got to admit it, and you've got to be willing to admit this to someone else that you have a problem. Then you get it on the table, then you can decide, begin to see, "I would go to counseling. I would get some input from someone."

If it's a real addiction an SA group or something like that would probably be very helpful. But prayer, it's accountability, I think, it's very important and the accountability person cannot be your spouse, it just can't be. You got to find somebody else, and you got to find somebody that loves you enough to get in your face every week and say, "Hey, did you? Did you look at something you shouldn't?" And that's going to be willing to be tough with you because you need that tough love, that loves you enough to be tough with you. 

Lindsay: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So I think it's admitting you have a problem and then what are your steps that you need to take? Accountability has got to be a part of it. How do you protect yourself? What do you put on your devices or not put on your devices? I've had people, I had one person that went to a phone, and all he can do on it is call and I think he can text and that's it. That's it. 

Lindsay: That's awesome. 

Dr. Kim: And, so, he locked it down. And, so, whatever it takes to get rid of that, and it's easy to fool ourselves. I actually had one person, one time, that got to porn through the Bible app 

because he clicked on a link, which took him to the internet which he was staying away from. And once he got to the internet it was like, "Okay, here I go."

Lindsay: Wow. 

Dr. Kim: So you can't fool yourself and that's where the accountability comes in. I think Covenant Eyes is good because you've got a report that's going to your friend, your person, that gets that report and shows what your activity has been. There's other good things out there that you could Google and find out things to restrict your access but it's a process, and I've seen it happen both ways with it. 

I've seen some people that they were so, when they finally got there, so disgusted with it. So ready to change. So realizing how harmful it was that they really were able to walk away from it. And, then, I've seen other people that continue to struggle with it. They know it's not good for them. They've come to that decision, but getting away from it is a process. And, I think, it's something that we have to realize we're always vulnerable. No matter how long you've been away from it, the enemy wants to get you back in.

And, so, you can be blindsided with something. Something might pop up on your computer screen. You may see some person or whatever it is, but there's triggers there. And, so, you got to be, be prepared for those. So you know that my choice when those things are in front of me is not to pursue those, it's to run away from them, and get away from it.

Lindsay: Yes, that's good, and I think just introducing maybe some different go-tos, like find some other thing. If it's I know I just need to walk outside and get away from the device, just set it down. These are the things I just had to do to overcome my addiction. It's not the same thing, but there are some impulses, there are certain situations that are always going to trap you. Always going to trigger you because it's a very habituated activity. 

And, so, when you know the thing, you have that first little itch in your mind. You're like, "I think, mh-hmm, yes, I'm going to hit the drive-through." Or whatever it is. Are you going to entertain that or are you going to shut that down? And sometimes shutting that down means you have to have a backup plan, "I'm not even going to get my car right now."

"I'm going to take a walk around the block."

"I'm going to breathe some fresh air."

"I'm going to evaluate."

All these things, you've got to have as many tools as you can possibly get.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and knowing that you have a choice. I mean, sometimes, that urge comes and we don't realize we still have a choice there of which way we go and what we do. 

Lindsay: Yes.

Dr. Kim: And I think going back to what we're talking about say it is stress related, that your stress is your trigger. Find out some other things to do with stress; exercise is a good alternative to that. Anything else, prayer is a good alternative to that. Just anything to make that your go-to instead of the porn. There are so many healthy ways to deal with stress and finding something that works for you, instead of choosing something like porn that's unhealthy, and is really in the long run, may complicate your stress.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, it's not going to help that's for sure. I love when you talk about the way things affect our brain, and our worn out paths that we use in our minds to get to the things we've done a million times. Those are easy roads because we're very accustomed to them. The new way, the different way, is a hard path, it's like going on a hike instead of a stroll. But the more you do it, the more you do the new behavior, the easier it'll come.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, when you bring up the brain it's an addiction, and we know about the plasticity, neuroplasticity of the brain. And, so, this long-term pornography use can be similar to long-term drug use because of how it changes our brain. And, so, that's why I think maybe the level of it depends, why some people struggle more coming out of it than others, but it's going to be worth it. 

I mean, if you were on a drug and it was killing you, I think you'd make the effort, hopefully, you would. 

Lindsay: Yes, I hope so. 

Dr. Kim: And, so, look at porn in a way that this is not giving you the life God designed for you, and what do you need to do to get away from it, and there are always answers. There's always help. There's even places you can go, Christian, places you can go, where they deal with this and can help you. So there's always an answer there. 

And, so, if you feel like you're stuck in it, you don't have to be. You don't have to stay stuck. When I've seen people that have been addicted to porn and they go through the process, and they get on the other side, they just look different. They just look different. There's that heaviness that was there is gone. 

There's just something different about them and there's the victory, and then, all of a sudden, God can use you to maybe somebody at work or a friend that confides in you, "Hey, you used to look at porn and you don't anymore. I'm stuck there, what'd you do?" And you, all of a sudden, have a chance to help somebody else. Which I think is how God completely redeems something. 

You go through something and you wish you hadn't had to go through, then God used this to help somebody else. And it's like, "Okay, that was definitely worth it."

Lindsay: Yes, that's so good and I love, too, that it's like there's purpose. God didn't create you just to keep struggling, He created you to be out there helping other people, ministering to someone in some way, and that could be it. The thing you think is the worst thing could end up being the most helpful thing. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, I've seen people do that. A guy that I knew and he was really into the sexual sin and stuff, and he has small groups that he leads now and he's got a ministry now helping people. And someone like that, it's like with AA where they use people that have been alcoholics before. 

Someone that's been a porn addict and now is helping lead groups to help people come out of that. He knows where you've been and those are around, there's people that do that. You can find a group like that. And I think with any addiction, it's best when you can work with someone that's been there because they know your lives, they know the seeds, they know what you go through. They know the things that you're going to say to try to cover for yourself because they've been there and, so, those are really helpful.

Lindsay: Yes, that's good, that's super encouraging, too.

Dr. Kim: Yes, oh, yes, always hope.

Lindsay: Yes, there is always hope. So this has been a heavy conversation of all about the effects of porn on marriage, on the user, and how to get out of it. Do you have any final piece of advice for our listeners, Dr. Kim?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I hope this has made some people think. I think it's easy to buy into what our culture says because that's easy sometimes. But I think if you go back and you really want to see what God has for you in marriage, in sexual relationship, read the Song of Solomon. 

Read how erotic and how arousing that can be and that as a husband and a wife you don't need outside things. They didn't put whatever in that book for them to go do besides each other and knowing that God's plan is going to be best, it's not only going to be healthier for you mentally, physically, all those kind of things, but it's going to grow your marriage. It's going to bring you closer together. 

And, so, I would just say if you're caught up in porn let today be the day you say, "I'm going to get out of this." And tell somebody, maybe, it's a best friend, maybe, you're not quite ready to tell your spouse, yet, eventually, you need to. But reach out to somebody and say, "I need help. I need you to help me be accountable. I need you to help me take the first step." Whatever that is and maybe go into Christian counselor, but take a step.

Lindsay: Yes, well, that's a great place to land. Take a step, there is a step you can take. And I love, I'm going to quote your words to you, Dr. Kim, but I love what you shared before, that sometimes if you want to start with prayer and you are praying for something that you don't want, yet, just pray that, honestly, to God. Like, "Hey, I want to stop doing this but I still want to keep doing it." And God will meet you because He already knows. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, I don't know why we think that if we don't say it out loud, God doesn't know and He does. And, so, you might as well get... because there is something better about us verbalizing it to God. He knows anyway, but there's just something therapeutic about that of just being totally honest with God.

Lindsay: Yes, and not just waiting until He answers the prayer by, boom, taking away the addiction. That's not a great run.

Dr. Kim: No and, unfortunately, we're probably going to get pornography, I think, is something that's always going to be here. We live in a sinful world, there's so much money to be made or is being made out of porn. 

Lindsay: Oh, so much.

Dr. Kim: So it's not going to go away, so we have to figure out how to deal with it. And, for me, as a dad, a granddad, and with boys involved in that, I want to do everything I can to help them make those right choices so that they don't get into that addiction. 

And, so, I talk pretty openly about it, all those kind of things sexually, with them. Sometimes they don't want to talk about it, but that's okay, they do. And, in the big picture, they appreciate that and I'm not ever condemning with them it's just, "Hey, let's talk about this, tell me." 

A lot of times we'll just talk about what's going on with some of their friends and stuff, and the things that they've either had to deal with or had to walk away from, and just helping them realize that they have a choice. And there are some choices that are going to be much better than others for you. 

But I always want them to realize they have a choice. They're not always going to make the best choice, the perfect choice, but knowing you have a choice when you get in a problem, then you can say, "Hey, I need to make a different choice here."

Lindsay: Yes, that's great. Yes, I wish everybody had somebody to talk to like that, but, they can listen to you today, and that helps.

Dr. Kim: Yes, they can. 

Lindsay: That's good. Well, next week we're going to be talking about ways to heal your marriage after porn use and rebuild trust. So we're going to be getting into more details about how to protect your marriage, how to rebuild trust after porn. Please don't miss that episode because there's a road to hope for the individual and for the marriage, and we want to share that with you. Make sure that you are following us on Instagram, Facebook, and following Dr. Kim on TikTok where he has a very famous video about The Dangers of Porn in Marriage.

Dr. Kim: I think we got over a million on that one. 

Lindsay: Gosh, that's so much. 

Dr. Kim: And it, certainly, wasn't because everybody agreed with me. 

Lindsay: Right, oh gosh. Well make sure you're following us on all the places. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today. 

[00:38:30] < Outro >

Announcer:Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by The Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email, from Dr. Kim, each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.