What does it mean to hold space for our spouse? | Unpack the Baggage In Your Marriage With Dr. Kelly Flanagan | Ep. 556
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Well, I'm excited to welcome on the podcast, today, Kelly Flanagan. Kelly and I've known each other for quite a while. But it's the first time we've really got to connect face-to-face, in a while. He is a counselor and he's an author. We're going to talk about his latest book, The Unhiding of Elijah Campbell. Kelly, welcome, it's good to see you.
Kelly: Dr. Kim, thanks for having me back. It's good to be face-to-face with you again.
Dr. Kim: It is. So let's get into this book, which is fascinating. You've written a lot of books, but this one is fiction, which is your first entry to that. So what led you to write a novel at this time in your career?
Kelly: Yes, I guess it was the summer of 2020, so we were right in the middle of the pandemic. So my book, True Companions, was slated to come out in February of 2021. But it was part of a two-book contract with my publisher. And the contract said, before that first one comes out, you have to pitch a second book. So, I'll never forget, I was sitting in the backyard, talking to my agent, one day, and she says, "So you got to get this proposal in for your second book. What are you thinking?"
I said, "Well, I keep having this image of this bridge, and this bridge represents this moment in midlife. Where we can keep retreading the ground we've been treading over and over again, our whole lives, doing the same old things, chasing the same things, or we could cross this bridge to new, more graceful ground. Where our goals have shifted. The ways that we are approaching life, the ways that we're showing up to life have shifted."
And, so, I keep picturing this bridge, and I've always wanted to write a book about the Beatitudes. And how the Beatitudes can guide us from one set of values to another. One way of living to another. So I'm imagining the Beatitudes would be these ideas that help us cross this bridge. And when we're having this conversation, she says, "Well, what if the Beatitudes were actual people, that walked with you across the bridge?"
And I said, "Well, that's really a cool idea but this is a nonfiction book, Kathy. And, so, I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense."
And she said, "Well, sit with it for a month and let's see where that goes." And, so, I sat with it for a month and I thought if I chose a loved one from my life, living or past, and picked a loved one for each of the beatitudes that exemplified one of those beatitudes.
Maybe in the book I could have a dialogue with that loved one of mine, and they could be the beatitude that walks me in midlife. From my same old ways of doing things into deeper, more soulful, and more beautiful ways of doing things.
And, so, I pitched that to her and she said, "I like it, let's turn it into a book proposal." So we did. I sent it off to The InterVarsity Press, and they came back to me and they said, "This is a great concept, this midlife, the bridge, the Beatitudes, but we think it would work better as fiction." And I've been wanting to write fiction my whole life, so, of course, it scared me to death.
And, so, my first reaction was, "No, I don't think you've got it. Let me re-propose it as a nonfiction book." So we rewrote it again, I think the title of that second nonfiction proposal was, like, School of Grace or something like that. Eight Graceful Ghosts, maybe it was, I can't remember. But, anyways, we pitched it again, a second time, as a nonfiction book, and they came back again and said This would work better as fiction."
At which point Kathy, again, said to me, "Sit with that for a month and let's see where this goes." And it began in that moment when I really started to open up to the possibility of writing it and spending some time writing it. My passion for it started to emerge. It's been there my whole life, but it really started to emerge for the first time in adulthood, and I just started to have a whole lot of fun writing.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome. That is so cool, as I shared with you before, that's something I want to do someday. And it's just interesting how God works in it, I mean, you go one way, you don't want to go that way. And then they say, "You got to go this way." And then God opens the door for you.
Kelly: Yes, and here we are. And for those who, I won't spoil anything here, but as you read the book, there's this scene where Elijah has this imagined conversation with his grandmother who has passed. And you'll see in that scene, and it's, very clearly, in a sense, a conversation with this idea of "Blessed are the poor in spirit."
Where she talks about how we move from valuing happiness to valuing joy. But poorness of spirit is the bridge, which helps us to value something deeper than happiness. And then the second conversation with his grandfather representing, "Blessed are those who mourn." And the idea that grief helps us move from our attachment to security, to a much deeper and abiding sense of resilience. And, then, at that point, the book started to run over, and the characters started to do their own things that I didn't quite stick to the beatitude structure. But it started out that way, as non-fiction.
Dr. Kim: But it's not non-fiction?
Kelly: Yes.
Dr. Kim: If that description doesn't get people to want to read the book, I don't know what, because it's just great. It's such a good one.
Kelly: Thank you.
Dr. Kim: So one of the big themes is how the past that we carry with us still affects us. How do you see that? And, as a counselor, how do you see that?
Kelly: Yes, as someone who counsels couples frequently, I basically feel like if we aren't talking, to some extent, how the past is, for each spouse pushing its way into the present, in some form or another. Then we're, probably, not getting to the depth of the truth of what's really going on here.
One of the ideas that emerged, as we started to think about how to share this book with people, was you can't let go of the past, but you can learn to dialogue with it. In other words, we so badly want to put the hard stuff, the pain, and the ways that it shaped us. We want to put it behind us, and pretend that it's not a part of us anymore.
But we carry all of that past forward with us, and during important moments in relationships, and with our spouses, it has a way of being triggered and pushing its way into the present. Of course, we blame it on our partners, not on our past. It's their fault.
Dr. Kim: Exactly, yes.
Kelly: And, so, I feel like a lot of the work that I do with couples, is helping them begin to notice the moment that your past is pushing its way into the present. Let's slow down around that, let's create some space for you to understand what's going on.
What is the pain from your past that right now you're feeling the urge to protect? And how can we create a space, where your partner bears witness to that awareness and growth that you're going through so they can support you in it. And then, of course, vice versa, it's always a two-way street. But every once in a while, we'll slow down on behalf of one spouse who's going, "Something's happening here. I'm tightening up, I'm protecting, I'm getting defensive. I want to attack you."
"Okay, let's slow down and think about what's the thing you're not wanting to feel right now and let's make some space to feel it."
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think it's so good because so many times, and as a counselor, I see that sometimes people just, really, they've got cancer in the relationship. But they really just want to put a Band-Aid on it. They want to do a little behavior modification. Actually, they want us to change their spouse and then everything will be okay. And what you're talking about is going in and getting the cancer out.
It's digging and finding what's there and getting it out, so that it really can be healthy in a way that it's... I don't think it can, I mean, obviously, God works miracles. But that work, I think, God works within that, and when we're willing to do that, God does amazing things in our lives.
Kelly: One of the ways, I mean, the way that I always turn out in a couple's work these days is to say, "Let's be honest, this is mostly each of you doing your own individual work,
in the presence of the other person. Bearing witness to the other person's growth and healing." And if both of you are willing to take that on, amazing things are going to happen here.
But if this remains a contest, to see which one of you Dr. Kelly thinks is more right or more wrong. I'm like, "This isn't going to go anywhere." And I just love the work when two people commit to that healing, and that growth, it's very exciting to be a part of.
Dr. Kim: It really is. And, I think, what you said, sometimes, it's scary to people. I mean, the fear of the unknown, of what's going to come up, or all that kind of stuff. But, man, I totally agree with you, when both are willing to because one can't really do it by themselves. They can work on themselves, but the marriage needs both of them working on it, doesn't it?
Kelly: That's right.
Dr. Kim: It really does. So if a listener senses their spouse is carrying those things from the past, that affect them, and I've had that happen. I've had one spouse come in and knowing the spouse's family of origin. They think, "Hey, I think there's some stuff there." How can they help or encourage that spouse to deal with that? What role do they play in that process?
Kelly: It's a great question. So I wrote a book called Loveable, which we talked about at one point. And it's hard for me to talk about any of this, without talking about what I consider to be the three fundamental realities of being human. The first is that we came into the world with a true self that God created for us, that is worthy of love and belonging. The second one is that, at some point, we all encountered a pain, we call shame, which was the message that we're not good enough the way we were created to receive love and belonging.
And, so, what we do is we begin to build a false self, that is now in charge of going out and getting us the love and belonging that we believe we don't deserve. And this false self, what some people call the ego, it's this thing that we build to make sure that "You can't hurt me anymore." And to earn or prove my worth so that you will love me.
And, so, basically, what we're talking about is that, in the context of a couple's work, one partner's pain is starting to emerge. And the challenge for their partner is to be able to hold space for that pain. Now, our defensive false self, our protective ego, can't hold space for anything. It's designed only to protect us and get what we want.
So we have to find a way to show up with our true self to that moment and hold space for the other person's pain. To not try to fix it, to not try to rush them through it. To not try to understand it and get to the bottom of it. But simply to be there with it in an empathic way, and that's growth in and of itself.
I often say, "Yes, there's growth that's happening as you surface your pain and your past." But the growth it requires to just simply bear witness to that and hold space for it, and not go into all of your do it, fix it, all those things. That's a lot of emotional growth happening right there, for the person who's witnessing it.
And, so, that's a concept that we talk a lot about, holding space for our partner's pain.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that because I think our tendency is to fix them, and a lot of times our intentions are good. Sometimes we just-
Kelly: Good intentions, that's right.
Dr. Kim: Really good intentions, but it's so different. And it's just hard for us, sometimes, just to let God work, let them work, and just be there to encourage, to walk with them, to love them, and those kind of things.
Kelly: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: But when we finally get there, there's a peace that comes with that. Because if it was Nancy and I, I can't fix her anyway. I mean, why in the world? I tried, early marriage, I tried hard.
Kelly: How many years did you try it for?
Dr. Kim: What? She could probably remember it better, and it was from my heart. But I realized exactly there's somebody else that needs to help guide her through it, and her in a relationship with God, and that was freeing for me. It was like, "Okay, God wants her that more than I do."
Kelly: That's right.
Dr. Kim: And it can happen and to back off, but it was difficult.
Kelly: And I don't even trust my ulterior motives in wanting my wife to be healed. Because, so often, they're ego-driven, they're selfish. I want her to approve of me and always be happy with me, and feel like I'm providing a good life for her.
And, so, it's like, "I'm not really sure I trust all those motivations." But to be able to trust that God's love for us is pure, and He wants that wholeness, and that healing for its own reasons, rather than for anything selfishly that we bring to it, that's powerful.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I had a guy ask me, one time, he said, "Well, what do I do?"
And I said, "Pray."
And he goes, "No, really, what do I do?"
I said, "Pray."
And he goes, "Really?"
And I said, "Yes."
"Just pray?"
And I said, "No, it's not just pray." Because when we do that, that gives us the wisdom of how to do the things we need to do to help them.
Kelly: Yes, there's a powerful prayer, simply, "Father, teach me how to simply be there in this. How to be in this feeling with my partner without getting defensive, without trying to do anything to it? How can I just simply, help me be in this feeling?" And that's a prayer God can answer.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, I think, too, Kelly, as you were saying, I was just thinking, our culture, we want things done so quickly. And just to realize it's going to take some time on things and it's worth it, to take that time, and not to get in a hurry or try to make our spouse feel, "You've been working on these six months now. When are we going to wrap this up?" No, it's not like that.
Kelly: Well, the accidental subtext that the message that we send in that. I mean, again, it comes from a good place. We want our people happy, we love them. But it also sends the message like, "This is inconvenient. Can we get you fixed so that we can go back to having a happy, loving life?"
And like I always say to my kids, "It's easy to love people who are happy. It's harder to love people who are struggling." It's like Jesus says, "It's easy to love our friends." True love is loving our enemies because we're not getting anything out of it, so to speak. We're just doing it to be there for them. So I think that is the challenge, as our spouses are working through difficult things.
Dr. Kim: I agree.
Kelly: So are there any signs that we can look for to help us to see this in ourselves?
Kelly: This probably started, for me, in the summer of 2019, it was before COVID. I was at a couple's retreat. I was co-facilitating a couple's retreat, and my co-facilitator had the couples turn their chairs to face each other, knees touching, looking each other in the eye.
And she said, "Okay, so on the count of three, I want you to do what I tell you to do. Don't ask any questions. One, two, three, close your hearts to each other. Don't let the other person in. Keep yourself safe, keep them out. Think about all the times that they've hurt you and disappointed you, do not let them in." And she coached them through this.
And then she said, "One, two, three, open your hearts to each other, let them in. Think about why you got to be with them in the first place. Think about the amazing things that exist in your life because of them. Think about the things you're grateful for, just let them in."
"One, two, three, close your hearts to each other." And she did this back and forth for about 10 or 15 minutes. And then she brought them all together and she said, "Tell me what that was like?" And they all said the same thing; "When my heart was closed, my body tensed up, my chest was tight, my gut clenched, my jaw was clenched. And when I opened my heart, to my partner, I felt a warm sensation of relaxation go through my body, and I felt peaceful, and I felt grateful."
And she said, "Well, I'm glad that you now know what that feels like. But the reason I really wanted you to do that exercise is I wanted you to know that you have a choice. That you, in every moment, have a choice to close your heart to your partner or to open your heart to your partner." And the reality made me think of that Viktor Frankl quote, "Between every stimulus and response is a space, and in that space is our power to choose and our freedom."
We tell ourselves that if my partner does X, Y, and Z, my heart is going to automatically close to them. And if they do A, B, C, my heart will open. But, in reality, there's a little bit of choice happening, a moment of choice. Which if we can wedge it apart and come to awareness that "I'm making a choice in this moment." We now have an opportunity to keep our hearts open to our partners.
In my work with couples, what I've been doing since 2019, is recognizing that feeling that everyone described. "When my heart closed, I felt this clenching in my chest." That's the earliest warning sign that our heart is closing. That we're going into defense mode. That our protective ego is kicking in.
And, so, I do a lot of mindfulness and awareness workaround, "What are you feeling in your body?" With couples. When is that first sign that you feel your heart closing in your body? And it's always somewhere between the gut and the temples. I've never heard of anyone say, "Yes, my heart was closing to my partner, and my toes cramped up." It's just never been said.
It's "A roiling in my gut."
It's "Door slamming in my chest, or this pressure in my chest."
It's "A full, heady, clenching feeling in my head." And, so, what we do is we try to attend to that. And as soon as we notice it we go, "Okay, there's your moment, you can feel your heart starting to close. What can we do to get you back open, in this moment, to your partner?"
Because once that heart's closed, once it's clamped shut, and you're in defense mode, no conversation is going to be productive at that point. So we've got to do the work to get you back open, so we can actually start to engage and communicate again. So a lot of it is just around that moment and in cultivating an open-heartedness, in that moment.
Dr. Kim: And helping people realize that you do get a warning sign. Your body is going to react in some way there. And I agree with you when you said that, no, I've never heard anything that didn't cover this part of our body for some reason. I mean, God gave us so many things to help us, but a lot of times we ignore that. And, so, like you said, once we get to go so far, then, it's tough coming back after that.
Kelly: It's the blessing of our faith traditions that God came to be in human form. We tend to want to toss the body out as a problem because it can be. But there's also something, apparently, sacred about being in human skin. And, so, to trust that our bodies are, actually, instruments we can work with, instruments of awareness, particularly, in this regard, they just give us great, early, warning signs.
Dr. Kim: Yes, one of the things, and I know a lot of people, is a struggle to get them to want to dig into the past. Because it helps us understand where we are today, and what we can change now. And I tell people, "It's not to give your parents a hard time or anything that went on in the past. It's to understand that and move forward." So if somebody's listening today and they've been thinking about that. What are some practical ways that they can begin to deal with the past?
Kelly: I really appreciate what you just said. One of the first ways I feel clients close their hearts to me when I suggest we look at the past is, "My parents were good people. I don't want to be harping on my parents." Or on the other side of it, "There's not going to be any reconciliation with my parents. I tried, that conversation doesn't go anywhere."
And my response to that is "This is not about dealing with your relationship with your parents. This is about learning how to be a parent to the younger part of you that is wounded, scared, and hurt in there, and asking for protection." When that heart closes, when we feel that clamping shut in our chest, it's actually a younger version of us. It's our true self, our younger self, saying, "Hey, I don't want to go through this again, protect me."
I actually had a pastor who reached out to me right after I published Loveable, and I'll never forget this, he said, "I read Lovable, and this idea that our youngest self is our truest self." And he said, "I got up to preach, a while back, on a Sunday morning. I looked out into the congregation and the district superintendent was sitting out in the congregation, and he had not told me that he was coming."
And he said, "And I immediately started to panic because I knew that meant evaluation and that thing."
He said, "But then I asked myself, I'm sitting there on the pulpit and I asked myself, 'Why am I panicking? I know how to give a sermon, I'm pretty good at it.'"
And he said, "And I realized it was the little boy in me that was panicking. He doesn't like to get up in front of people, adults, talking to adults, and he doesn't like to be evaluated."
And he said, "Right there, I had a conversation with that younger version of me. And I said, 'Hey, dude, I got this. I've preached a lot of sermons. I'm actually really good at it. But you are the most playful, the most spontaneous, the funniest parts of me. Would you get up there and preach this sermon with me?'"
And he said, "We got up there and preached the sermon together, and it was a huge hit."
Dr. Kim: I love that.
Kelly: Isn't that a great story?
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes.
Kelly: And, so, what are we up to when our past is surfacing within us? It's a younger version of ourselves that's been hurt and is not wanting to be hurt again. And, so, this isn't about camping out in a conversation about the people who hurt us. A lot of times, we don't even know who that was, we can't remember it. It's about, actually, being able to create space and dialogue with that hurt part of us so that it feels seen, heard, and recognized, and safe again, at least with us.
This is stuff that I as a trained empiricist, a Ph.D. level psychologist, and inner child, it was never a comfortable space for me. Until I started writing these letters to my daughter and publishing them online, they were going viral, and I couldn't believe it. All these adults, men and women, of all ages, were emailing me. They weren't saying, like, "Hey, thanks for this letter, I'm going to give it to my daughter."
They were saying "I needed to hear these words still. I needed to be reminded that I'm lovable, that I matter, that I belong, that I'm not alone, and I just started to surrender to the truth." We've all got a little kid inside of us still waiting on a love letter. And that version of us is hurt, and it's just wanting to know that it can be safe to come out and play a little bit.
Dr. Kim: Yes, because when we're young and those things happen, we figured out how to survive, at that time. And most of the time, I think, it's really not a conscious decision. It's just the way we figure out what works for us so we don't get hurt anymore, and sometimes we might make a conscious decision. But a lot of people I talk to, as they think back about that, it wasn't just, "Okay, I'm going to do this, this, and this."
It was more like, "I'm not going to get hurt anymore." And, so, as things happen you begin to do that, and then you just carry that on.
Kelly: That's right. I think it's happened to all of us. There are about zero people in history who, at age seven, eight, nine, were conscious of starting to protect themselves. But the first instinct, at that age, is to first start to tuck yourself away. Go into hiding, don't let people see what you're really thinking, and feeling, and doing, and then later we start to add more aggressive layers of protection.
The mean girls in middle school, and all the terrible aggressive things middle school boys can do, and all of that. And, then, at some point, we developed this elevated version of protection. Which says, "Ah, look what I've accomplished and achieved, and look what I've got. You don't have a right to question me anymore." But underneath all those layers, it was a little kid who unconsciously, at some point, said, "This doesn't feel good, I need to be separated from life. I need to be protected in here." And we're just trying to welcome that kid back out to get to experience life again.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and bring him into our marriages or her into our marriages.
Kelly: Well, exactly, when I hear a partner, I hear it all the time. "Well, I just don't think I can be patient. My wife is sad, and I just don't think I can be patient with it." Well, would you be patient with your daughter, your seven-year-old daughter, if she came to you and said, "I'm sad, so and so picked on me at school."
"Of course, I would."
Kelly: "Okay, well, there's a little girl inside your wife, who just wants a safe space to feel sad about the things that broke bad today. And, so, you do have the capacity, you just have not chosen to exercise that capacity with your spouse, and you can do that. We'll learn how to do that."
Dr. Kim: That's so good, absolutely. I remember one time, and this was a lady, and just wasn't letting herself free herself from that, and the things that happened to her when she was seven. And I said, "When you go to church on Sunday, you go to the seven-year-old, little, girl, class and just stand there and look in and watch them for a while, and put yourself in that place.
And then rethink what happened to you, and you're dealing with it as you would as an adult. Go back and deal with it as a seven-year-old little girl." It made such an impact on her and I love what you said about that. Sure you'd do that for your child, oh, my gosh.
Kelly: Yes, oh, man, I have a 19-year-old son who just left home. He's been telling us, since 8th grade, he doesn't want to go to college. He wants to move to Chicago and become a comedian. And, so, he is now living in the city, on his own, paying his own way, taking classes at Second City in Chicago. And I look at that, first, I'm in awe of his bravery and, second, I was like, "Was I that young when I was 19?" Oh, yes, I was. Imagine how young I was at seven or eight, but we just don't give ourselves credit for that.
Dr. Kim: No, absolutely. Well, that's cool that he's doing that. What a cool deal to follow your dream and give it a chance.
Kelly: Give it a chance, yes. And he's like, "Dad, I'm always nervous, it's scary."
And I'm like, "Yes, I think that's how success feels about 80% of the time, is nervous and scary. You're doing good things, man."
Dr. Kim: I bet. I was reading the deal on Steve Harvey yesterday, because I was using a quote from him on something. And go back and see all the jobs he did before he got famous, and how he was homeless for three years, and how he lived in his car for a long time. And, sometimes, we look at some people that have been successful, in different roles, and we think "They just happened, there they are."
But no, we all pay dues to get where we are. The fact that he's willing to get out there, I don't think I would do that, that would scare me, I can't.
Kelly: I know, me too, I couldn't do it. I said to him, "Are you willing to pay the dues?"
And he's like, "Dad, look at my bedroom I can live in Phil."
I was like, "Yes, fair enough."
Dr. Kim: What a great answer.
Kelly: That's a good answer.
Dr. Kim: So let's talk about some unconscious competition between spouses, competing rather than connecting, and you mentioned it just a little bit earlier. So what are the ways that we compete with each other? Because I think it's what's so common.
Kelly: It sure is. I go back, again, to you've got your true self, and then you've got your false self, your ego. The ego only knows competition; it doesn't know the connection. It's designed, particularly, in those middle school years. You start to think, "Well, the people who win are the people who get respect. The people who win are the people who get loved. They seem to be the popular ones. So let's start to compete at everything and try to win."
And, so, we bring that into our marriages and, as you know, it just eats away at the relationship. What are couples competing at? I compete with my wife for who's loving who best. But the funny part of it, and the problem is, the blind spot is, I compete with her by trying to outdo her at my love language, which is acts of service. Which she doesn't care about at all.
She just walked in the other night and I had spent an hour just getting the place immaculate. I wanted her to walk in and just be wowed, be like, "Wow, I didn't expect this." She walks in, and she doesn't notice it, she doesn't notice it at all. And, so, we compete by heaping our love language on another person which, oftentimes, is missing the boat altogether.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Kelly: And rather than trying to, again, put our competition aside and go, "What's it going to take for me to connect with you in your language? In the way that you love to be loved? Which isn't going to be as rewarding for me. It's not the language I speak; it's just not going to be as rewarding.
But I'm going to do that for you because that's the way that you receive love. And it tends to be when we get in that spiritual space of, "I'm going to give you love in the form that you appreciate it, even though it doesn't feel great for me." You're totally out of competition mode at that point.
To get there, you have to leave competition behind. You have to be valuing connection and closeness more than competition. So what's your spouse's love language? How can you make sacrifices to heap that upon them, even though for you, it's probably boring, unrewarding, seems senseless, but you do it anyway?
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, and that's what Jesus shows us, don't you? I mean, everyone He met, He met them where they are, and loved them in the way that they needed to be loved. It's just hard for us sometimes. I don't know that I've ever counseled a couple that they have the same love language.
Kelly: Maybe they don't exist or they don't need counseling, one of the two-
Dr. Kim: Maybe, well, that can be true, too. But, again, it's our differences that God gives us, and when we learn to embrace them and go with that, what a difference it makes. Nancy's is quality time.
Kelly: Nancy's is quality time?
Dr. Kim: Quality time, and my mom's was gifts. And, so, by the first year of marriage, Nancy gets so many gifts. And I thought, "This is not affecting her the way it did my mom." And, so, finally, when we figured out she needed just my time and she was able to verbalize that to me. And, well, actually, I thought, "That's stupid, why do you need that?"
"My mom didn't need that." But then I began, and as I would do that and I'd see what it did for her because you're right, it didn't do a lot for me. I had to learn the joy of doing it for her and seeing that in her, and that's not easy sometimes.
Kelly: It's not, and my wife's is quality time as well and I can, honestly, say, and it's such a humbling thing to admit that we've been married now 21 years. And this year, for the first time, I finally understand what she means by quality time. Because my definition of quality time is going to be different than someone whose love language it is.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Kelly: And I said to her, and it was late this year, I said, "I think all you really want from me is just the fullness of my attention, for a little while, the fullness of my attention."
And she's like, "Yes, that's what I've been saying for 21 years."
Because I think quality time is like let's go out to a restaurant and do this and this. But if I'm not fully present there, if I am not giving her the fullness of my attention, for her, that doesn't count as quality time. And, so, we're still learning what our spouse's love language is, and we need their help in learning it.
Dr. Kim: I agree, and with Nancy, it has refined a little bit over the years. And, so, I have to keep pursuing that. I think the first thing I did was just, well, I had her sit on the couch with me, while we watched the football game. Thinking that was going to be for quality time. No, it wasn't, it was for me, that's my deal completely.
Kelly: Yes, that's right.
Dr. Kim: I think it is, and one of the things that I've learned after. We just celebrated our 53rd anniversary.
Kelly: Oh, congratulations.
Dr. Kim: And what you said, you still learn things and if you ever think you've got it in marriage, I think you're cheating yourself. Because the way we change what God teaches us, we have so much to continue to learn about each other all the way through.
Kelly: I appreciate you saying that.
Dr. Kim: And it becomes an adventure after a while.
Kelly: That's right. Well, in the midst of learning that about my wife, this year, I can honestly say this was the toughest year of our marriage. And, in hindsight, I think, what happened was as I'm learning that what she wants is the fullness of my attention.
I'm trying to give it to her, but she was going through a year where she's launching her oldest, her firstborn, feeling the passage of time more than ever and how quickly our next two are going to be flown from the nest. And what I was not hearing is the way you give me the fullness of your attention, this year, is by pouring into time here at home with these kids.
It's not us going out on a date. It's sitting down for a board game with these two, who are still at home, and making the most of the time we've got left. And, so, what quality time meant for her changed dramatically this year because of the launching of our oldest. I really appreciate that you bring attention to that.
Dr. Kim: That's such a great example, of how that does change.
Kelly: Yes, thank you.
Dr. Kim: Same love language but it changes some in how it plays out, that's really good. What about, do the boundaries play a part in any way? Personal boundary between spouses, placing on ourselves to get out of this comparison thing?
Kelly: When I think about how to exit the comparison game. The thing that stands out the most is that when we're in the comparison game, essentially, we're in a place where we say, "You're the problem." If you would do more, be more, give more, and so on, as much as me, for instance, then, we would be okay. We see the problem of the marriage rooted in our partner. To me, there's this concept in the marriage literature called empathic joining around the problem. I'll say it again, empathic joining around the problem.
The idea is that if we can begin to visualize, together, the problem is not you, the problem is not me. The problem is this third entity that we are called to collaborate with and deal with together. Then, now, all of a sudden, we're not in competition with each other.
We're going, "Yes, it's hard to give more because we've got three kids who are each in two sports. How are we going to work, together, empathically, understanding how this is hard for you? Encouraging you to create boundaries for yourself if you need them, and me to create boundaries for myself if I need them to take care of myself. How can we encourage that mutual boundary setting but understanding that we're doing it not as a boundary against each other, but boundaries for our own health, as we face the stresses and the rigors of life?"
Dr. Kim: That's so good. Yes, that makes a huge difference, makes a lot of sense.
Kelly: Empathic joining around a problem, it's a litmus test I use for myself. Am I currently thinking about how my wife and I can collaborate, together,
to overcome this very stressful, difficult, journey that we call being human? Or am I thinking that she's the problem in my life, and it would be great if she would just get it together. And if it's not empathic joining around the problem, I'm probably in the wrong space.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, and when we get in that space of "If they would just change." I mean, we just get stagnant, and we don't grow, and our marriage, certainly, nothing happens with it, it probably goes backward in that.
Kelly: That's right.
Dr. Kim: And, so, it's just making that decision to quit fighting each other for that. It's not a competition.
Kelly: That's right. We're basically offloading all the responsibility for change to the other person and saying, "I get to tap this one out here. I don't have any changing to do right now." And if we're not taking responsibility-
Dr. Kim: Right, "Call me when you get better."
Kelly: Right, "Call me when you get better."
Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly. Let's talk about an idea that was in the book The Unhiding of Elijah Campbell. Elijah says of his wife, "Everybody in my life had underestimated me; she rounded up." How can a spouse adopt a rounding-up attitude, even though, inevitably, our spouse is going to let us down at times?
Kelly: That's a great question. I often say that the turning point in a marriage, when two people are really working on a marriage and growing. The turning point is when your image of them, your belief in them, your trust in who they are, and the goodness of their heart, and their desire to do their best and show up the best. When that image of them becomes more real than all of the ups and downs of life, and conflict, stress.
Last night it was bedtime. The kids had had the day off, and my wife took a glance at screen times for the day and was like, "Oh, my gosh, our kids were on screens all day while we worked, and we're terrible parents, and we need to do something about this immediately." And I was not at my best. I was exhausted, as well, and dismissive of that to which she reacted.
But there's something different that does happen for us, now, which is, I know that we don't have a whole lot to fix in that moment, if that makes any sense. Because we have a basic trust in the other person that once we get a good night's sleep and we're well rested, if there's an issue to deal with, we'll work on it together and we're on the same team.
And, so, I see her snapping at me and I can go, "I know that's not how she wants to be. I know that she does not want to be snapping at me right now. I know she's tired. I know tomorrow this will be different." And if you can know that, if you can reside in that faith in each other, then, it is remarkable how much conflict, unhealthy conflict, that you avoid. That you don't have to repair or reconcile, and you can just get right back to collaborating together to handle life.
Dr. Kim: It's really just giving some grace to our spouse.
Kelly: That's right.
Dr. Kim: Accepting them as they are, and knowing that I'm going to need the same thing from her right, at some point.
Kelly: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: And we get there a lot better than we used to, but they're still challenging times and people need to know that. I just know from being married as long as we have, when we embrace that and I'm able to say, "Yes, she's going to be great tomorrow, I just love her right now." And how good it is and when I don't, because, usually, when one of us has that mood, it doesn't go well if the other barks back at it. "Yes, we're ready for a fight." I think, maybe, it's just our pride or whatever gets in the way, but I know what a difference it makes when we give each other grace.
Kelly: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: And just say, "I love this person." I think, maybe, we thought that when we got married. That "I love this person enough to take them, warts-and-all, no matter what." And then we lost that for a while but we've got to get back that we do.
Kelly: And I hear this voice, in the back of my head, right now, wanting to make sure that what listeners aren't hearing is you could just avoid all conflict by giving your partner a pass. That's not what we're saying.
Dr. Kim: No, good point.
Dr. Kim: We're saying that when you reconvene the hard conversation, it's going to be different because you've held a graceful image of your partner. That they're always doing the best that they can, and they're giving their best, and you can trust that that's going to be the case going forward. Then you're more equipped to deal with the hard conversations.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, because you may also say that this really isn't the time to do this, to talk about it. And, so, the next day, maybe, you sit down and say, "Hey, let's talk about what happened last night." And it will go so much better, so much better.
Kelly: Yes, that's right, absolutely. I tried to solve every problem, get rid of my anger before the sun went down on it, it never went very well. It always seemed to just make things worse.
Dr. Kim: I know; I don't know why we all go through that sometime. And I've had couples that would tell me "We weren't going to go to bed until the fight was dissolved." And they said, "We were exhausted. We stayed up till three in the morning, and finally, we'd just fell asleep fighting.
Kelly: Because the more tired you get, the less well it goes.
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, this doesn't get better at all. So one final question, what are you enjoying about your marriage today? Talked about it being, I just flashed back to when our son left, and it affects a mom differently than a dad. I think it affects both of us, but just in different ways. And, so, those were challenging times that we had to walk through together. But what are you enjoying about your marriage, today?
Kelly: I do feel like having come through last year, there's a sense of if we can get through a year like that and feel stronger. We can trust that any hard time is going to make us stronger. So there's that quiet confidence about us now that we wouldn't have had before the hard time. But the specific thing that comes to mind is we sat down with our two remaining kids at home, 15 and 13, and we set our vision for our family, for the year. What are we focused on?
What are the fun things we want to do?
What are the ways we want to serve?
What's our mission for the year? And the mission we came up with is we want to dedicate ourselves to holding space for each other, no matter what the other is bringing to us.
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's wild. So good.
Kelly: My wife and I are trying to lead the way on it, and I can feel it. I can feel it, when I'm not at my best and she's just holding space for that. And not reacting but also not leaving, that's what holding space is. I spent an awful lot of time last year fooling myself into thinking I was being relationally mature. Because when she'd become reactive, I'd go, "Okay, I'm just going to let this go and I'm going to walk away."
And, then, I heard this great quote by Richard Rohr, "The opposite of control is not letting go, it's participation." And I realized that I was bypassing the hard work of participation by going, "Okay, I'm going to let go, and just go write a blog post that everyone will love and give me kudos for."
Dr. Kim: And "They'll tell me how great I am since she's not."
Kelly: "They'll tell me how great I am. I'll go create that sense of control and admiration over here." And, so, holding space is continuing to participate in what the person is going through. Not reacting to it, but being there with it, for it, and in it.
So we're trying to do that as a family and I can, honestly, say, and I might get a little emotional, it's the most powerful way to feel loved, that I could describe in our marriage, is to have me feeling something big, strong, and have her hold space for that and for me to be able to do the same for her. And, ironically, the more we do that, the less it seems there is to hold space for. There's less need to do that because there's more ease, peace, and joy in the relationship.
Dr. Kim: More connection.
Kelly: More connection, that's right.
Dr. Kim: That's so good, that's great. This has been so much fun. I love getting with you. I love what you do. From Loveable, to True Companions, to the new one The Unhiding of Elijah Campbell, they're all great.
Kelly: Thank you.
Dr. Kim: And if people want to connect with you, what are some other places besides going through the books?
Kelly: So my website is drkellyflanagan.com, d-r-kellyflanagan.com. And, if you go there and sign up for my newsletter, you'll get about a monthly email from me, and some extra goodies. You get the Loveable mini-course, which is a five-session little mini-course on how to put some of those ideas into practice.
And, then, the new novel, it's a great way to settle into a lot of things we've talked about today. Not with our head but with our hearts. I hear people say, "I read it the first time until something changed in me, and I go back and read it the second time to figure out what."
Dr. Kim: That's cool.
Kelly: Yes, so unhidingbook.com is the place to go to, to find out more about that.
Dr. Kim: And we talked about it a little bit earlier, but there is something different when we read a novel because we are more relaxed. And if I'm reading a book about "This can make my marriage better." Well, I'm going to focus because I don't want to miss anything. And when you're reading a novel, those principles that you have in there and those things just sink into us. And I can see that makes sense of how, "Hey, there was something there. I got something, but there's something else, I'm going to read this thing again."
Kelly: Well, ironic, I never thought about it like this. But in light of our conversation, when you read a story or a novel, you're holding space for the main character. You have no control over them. You're not doing anything to them. You're just going through it with them. And, so, it just opens up that space in us, that capacity to do that.
Dr. Kim: It's a great way of looking at it.
Kelly: Yes, thanks, I never thought that. So thank you.
Dr. Kim: So awesome. Thank you, thanks for your time, I appreciate your friendship. I can't wait to talk again.
Kelly: Likewise, looking forward to the next time.
[00:48:44] < Outro >
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