Healing Your Heart and Your Marriage | Unpack the Baggage In Your Marriage with John and Stasi Eldredge | Ep. 557
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Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationships.
Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage podcast. I was thinking we're approaching 550 different podcasts, and we've had some amazing guests over the years. I don't think I've ever been as excited as I am today, because we're going to welcome John and Stasi Eldredge to the podcast.
They've been married for almost 40 years. They've authored and co-authored so many books. They've created The Pause app. They minister to so many people. They have an impact around the world through the ministries that they have done, and I'm so thankful that they said yes to be on the podcast. And I'm so excited for you guys to enjoy this interview with us. So let's go right to the studio. Well, I'm so excited to welcome John and Stasi to the podcast. Thank you guys for being here. I love everything you guys do, and so excited to spend some time with you both.
John: Thank you.
Stasi: It's really a pleasure for us, thank you.
John: Yes, thanks for having us.
Dr. Kim: Stasi and I did a Facebook Live not too long ago, and one of the things we talked about was longing for more, and unmet desires in marriage, and that's not really a bad thing. So what do you mean by that?
Stasi: Well, it keeps you alive, if you're settled and everything is status quo, that's a nice pause. But just being a human being, we're created to want to be growing and experiencing more, so there's always more available.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
John: Kim, I think, it's not 'Should you', you are longing for more. That is the nature of your humanity. That is what it means to have a heart. You are longing for more in your marriage and in your life. The question is what are you doing with those longings?
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, so when people are hearing this or wrestling with it. How do we let Jesus do what He wants to do and then also let our spouse do what God designed them to do?
Stasi: Dr. Kim, that is the question, really, because apart from God you can't have the marriage that you long for. And if we're not finding our identity, our meaning, our validation, first in Him, then we really don't have anything to bring to our spouse.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
John: Oswald Chambers said that "The only person that can satisfy the aching abyss of the human heart is Jesus Christ." And so, friends, the kindest thing you can do for your marriage is to get all that longing off of it and turned into your relationship with Jesus. Because, then, you've taken so much pressure off your spouse and the marriage itself to come through.
Stasi: That's such a good point. I remember when John said to me, "I'm not the report card on your life." And I had really given that report card over to him. So how he was responding to me, if he was happy, if he liked the meal, if he thought I was responding well to the children.
Anything and everything, every day, he had the report card on my life, and it put so much pressure on him to validate me. And it also put me up for grabs, all of the time, of "How am I doing?" Before being able to stand on the love of God; and that my value, my worth, my being beloved was not up for grabs. When that began to grow in my life, it allowed a freedom, in our marriage, that we hadn't had before. You liked that when that report card came back-
John: It was immensely relieving, it really was.
Dr. Kim: Well, but, Stasi, at that time, you thought you were doing what you should be doing?
Stasi: Well, I did, but it really was stemming from an insecurity and just not knowing who I was. And giving it to him, he might be in a bad mood, he might be going through something hard, so that was just a dangerous thing to do.
Dr. Kim: Yes, but we can do that pretty often and, I think, it's pretty easy to do in our relationships, and our expectations that we bring into marriage, and expectations of the other person. All that stuff comes in and just causes a lot of turmoil.
Stasi: It does.
John: I am so glad you used the word expectations. Because we were just chatting, the other day, that today's expectations are tomorrow's resentments.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. Because I had so many unrealistic expectations coming into marriage, and my parents had a great marriage. And Nancy came from an alcoholic family and those kind of things. So, man, my expectations, it just didn't fit what we were going to do, or try to do, or what God wanted us to do, I guess, is really there. And, so, that caused us a lot of problems in the early part of our marriage.
Stasi: Yes, the expectations, I know that I even had a lot on myself. I thought that as soon as we got married, I never cooked before we got married, but I just thought that as soon as I said I do, I would somehow become Martha Stewart or Betty Cochran. I would know how to do it and meal plan, and make amazing things. Oh, my goodness, that was just a taste, a small, little, area of where I thought I was going to be utterly transformed into what I thought was the amazing wife, and it didn't happen.
Stasi: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So you had this checklist, really, then, Stasi, of, "If I'm going to be a really good wife, I got to be able to cook. I got to do this, this, and this."
Stasi: Yes, and I didn't think I did, it wasn't something conscious. I didn't have my list written out anywhere, so I think that's where it surprised me. I remember this one night when John came home and I was lying on the couch, exhausted after work, and he asked me what's for dinner. And it was only a few weeks into our marriage and I said, "I don't know."
And he said, "Thank the living God." Because of the pressure. I was putting it on Him, I was putting it on all of us.
Dr. Kim: Yes, so what was your expectation at that time, John? Stasi is just jumping through hoops all the time. What were you thinking when that was going on?
Stasi: I like it that she said they're unconscious expectations. We loved each other. We loved Christ. We came in with a beautiful relationship, but you don't realize everything else you're bringing to the table.
So much of it out of your childhood, broken places, unhealed trauma. I thought that everything was just going to be fine. That I was a completely great guy that didn't need any working on. My transformation was done, it was complete. And, by the way, we were young and we're brand new Christians, not brand new, but young in Christ. And I just thought, "Hey, we have God, we have each other, everything's fine."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
John: I think, gang, if you don't know what your expectations are that you're bringing, look at your anger and look at your sadness. Because that will help you identify "What am I so mad about?"
Or "What am I so sad about?" And, then, it would also be really healthy, if your relationship can sustain it, to ask your spouse, "Honey, what's the pressure I'm putting on you? What are the expectations that you feel from me?"
Stasi was describing I didn't put that set of expectations that she'd be an amazing cook on her. And, so, if you could name it and then the two of you can disarm it and go, "Babe, no way, that is not what I'm expecting." That could be very lovely to disarm some of that just verbally.
Dr. Kim: And, sometimes, we just don't talk about it, do we? We just keep going through that, and exhausting ourselves, and putting pressure on each other, the communication part of that is so important.
We were young, too, we were 20 years old when we got married, and we thought we knew everything. I worked with my dad for a while before I went back to school to become a counselor.
And I remember thinking that "If you're a Christian and you're married, well, I don't want to be a Christian marriage counselor because they don't need that because they're Christians, and they're married, and they won't have problems." And then six months into marriage, I thought, "Oh, yes, it isn't as easy as sometimes we think it would be."
Stasi: I want to go back to your first question, if you don't mind. Because having those kinds of conversations can be very scary, and to ask your spouse that is very vulnerable. And, so, I think that comes back around to why do you have to find your security in Christ?
Why do you have to have your life there?
Because you can only be there that you'll be able to take the risk. To know that you're okay, you can walk together and have some difficult conversations. You can look at your life, you can look at your style of relating, because you're actually okay, you're going to be okay, and I know I needed that.
And it took quite a while for me to be able to stay in the room and have a hard conversation with John, in order to hear ways that I was failing. Until I really knew that I belonged to God, I was my father's daughter, and I was going to be okay. The ground was not going to open up and swallow me whole if something didn't go well.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. So somebody is watching, listening today, and they think, "God, that sounds so good." What's the first step in finding fulfillment in Jesus? What would you say to them?
Stasi: Such a big question. I'm looking at John so he can go first.
John: It's really important to know that we're not just talking about believing in Jesus. Many people believe in God or believe in Jesus Christ, but they are not experiencing life with Him, satisfaction in Him. They're not experiencing God as a profound source of love in their life.
And, so, gang, we're not just talking about going to church or showing up on Wednesdays. What we're saying is the Psalm says, "For you alone, O Lord, are the fountain of life." That you discover the most wonderful thing in the world as you begin to take both your heart's longings and your heart aches, your wounds, the trauma from your life, and to bring that into intimacy with Jesus. He's able to heal, He's able to love, He is able to minister to your soul.
You take all of that deep heart stuff to Jesus first. And we're not saying that you don't ever take that to your spouse, we're not saying that at all. But we're saying that out of an intimate union with Jesus, the soul is actually made for union with God.
"I'm the vine," He said, "You're a branch." We're supposed to be one, united. Well, then, as you're united with Christ, what Stasi was describing, the security to be vulnerable, the confidence to be brave, the hurts from your childhood. How many times in our marriage have one of us projected onto their other hurts.
At one point I had to tell Stasi "I'm not your father. I'm not your dad." So all that heartache, all that longing, Jesus wants to care for that with you, friends. And as we cultivate that with Christ, holy cow, first off, it's wonderful, everybody He's the healer, He is the source of life. But then it just opens up whole new levels of love, in your marriage, because you're doing better.
Stasi: It does. I know, for me, the process really started by me asking Jesus, "Who am I to you? Can you show me who I am to you?" And then spending a ton of time in Ephesians chapter one, which is still one of my favorites because it just speaks so much to that.
Neil Anderson has this list of – Who Am I in Christ. And I printed that thing off and I read it every day for two years. Just saturating my heart in the truth, and asking God to speak to me, and believing, taking the risk to believe, He actually wanted to. That was the beginning of the journey to know these things that John is talking about. This more that's available, this union, this intimacy with Christ.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that you said that about the list of truths that Neil Anderson has. Because we just need to continue to put that into us. I mean, for some people it may be just they say, "Jesus come in and everything happens."
But for most of us, it is a transformation, and trusting, and learning because it's foreign to us. One that someone would love me unconditionally, I mean, that's a tough concept to get a hold of. And this seems to me, sometimes, God just is waiting for us to take that first step so He can show off, so He can show up. So He can begin to show us how much He cares and loves. And I know for some people it's risky because they don't know, "Am I going to give up control?"
"Does this mean I can never dance again or listen to my favorite rock band?"
We get all these things that go around in our head and there's just so much freedom that comes in, that, so much freedom.
Stasi: And it's so much better than we thought. The more we know Him, the more we love Him.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. So it's just taking that step, and letting Jesus begin to do what He wants to do in our lives. So good.
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Dr. Kim: So let's talk about how you guys had a rocky period three years into marriage, you each went to counseling. And, John, you alluded to it a little bit, how much has your past stories impacted your marriage?
John: Oh, my goodness, gang. So this year we've been married 40 years, this coming October. And we are still healing from our childhoods, and that healing is still bringing profound breakthrough in our marriage.
So I want to describe this hopeful journey of Jesus is committed to your wholeheartedness. He is committed to your healing, gang. And, so, yes, it often takes place through the rocky times, the arguments, maybe, even the breakups that happen so that He can get to the underlying things. So was it three years into marriage, Stasi, that you said over the kitchen table one morning, "I think we ought to get a divorce?"
Stasi: Yes, very casually, like, "Pass the jam." And it was really because we were living such separate lives, and marriage was not what I had thought it was going to be. We didn't have a shared vision. It was very much just two worlds apart.
Dr. Kim: Just not connected.
Stasi: Just not connected, yes.
John: Well, and a lot of it was built around my selfishness. I thought I was a fairly generous, kind hearted, open person, until I married. And then I realized, "Wow, I am really self-centered. And, so, I was doing my thing, which forced Stasi to do her thing, and there wasn't the intimacy there. And, so, we both went to counseling and, for me, I grew up in an alcoholic home, and I grew up with a very unattached mother.
She had to go back to work because of the alcoholism and all that, and she was gone. I have no memories of playing with my mom. I have no memories of her reading a book to me, and my dad was an alcoholic.
And, so, again, we had a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ. But simply coming to Christ doesn't immediately heal your childhood trauma, and it was all of that that had to come to the surface. And you were talking earlier, Kim, about what builds intimacy with Christ.
The single thing, more than anything else in my life, that has built intimacy with Jesus is His healing of my broken heart. The love of Jesus, the actual presence of Jesus in us, Christ now lives in us, healing the heartache from my childhood. That was enormous for me to be a better man and a more loving man to Stasi.
Stasi: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Yes, to me, it seems like it's usually a process and, certainly, God could just have taken all that away and said, "Okay, I'm going to zap that, you're healed." But it seems like it's that process, we learn so much in that process, and we learn to trust Him. And, I think, if He just healed me of things quickly, I might just take it for granted or not really learn what I need to learn in it. And even though it's painful, sometimes, I think, that's more beneficial. Do you agree?
Stasi: I want the zap, be-healed model, thank you very much.
Dr. Kim: One zap, oh, yes.
Stasi: Yes, but I do think that our character develops, the quality of our souls, the beautification of our hearts, it happens in hardship. I know that, for me, that I am still not a woman who is as desperate for God when things are good, as I am desperate for God when things are hard. And it's in those times that I have really come to know who He is and His love in the midst of pain. In the midst of unhealed wounds and questions that are unanswered, that is what has really forged my relationship, to know the faithfulness of God.
Dr. Kim: That's so powerful. What would we have missed if we gave up when it was hard, or if you guys gave up when it was hard? If that day when Stasi said, "I think we need to get divorced, pass the jam." If you would have said, "Okay"-
Stasi: Three children, three daughters in law, five grandchildren, and a ton of joy and intimacy, and knowing, and a shared life. I mean, just talking about how the hard things with God, in our lives, strengthen our relationship with God. The hard things in our marriage strengthen our relationship in our marriage. John is in it for me and with me and I know that, and I might not have known that before. Of course, I wouldn't have known that if we had just bailed. But he's not a man who bails, and I know that I'm the priority in his heart, and that is, wow, to know that.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And, so, I got hear your answer, John, what did you say when she said that? When she said, "I think we need to get a divorce, pass the jam."
John: Panic, and I immediately actually booked us a weekend away, so that we could go away and talk about these things together.
Dr. Kim: Oh, wow, that's awesome.
John: But, Kim, what would we have missed? Because we've hit more than one hard place in our marriage. God wants to use your story in other people's lives, and the journey that we've taken together, and the journey that we've taken with Christ. The journey that our family has taken has brought healing and intimacy with Jesus, literally, to hundreds of thousands of people. Because of our work in the world now and our ministry, our writing our books, and stuff like that. But all that grew out of our healing and our choice to stay together.
Dr. Kim: So good. Ours came at the 6th year when Nancy said, "I don't know whether we should stay married or not. I don't know if I love you enough to stay married." And a lot of it was because of myself. I mean, we look back now the pieces fit together, pretty good, how we got there. God brought a lady into her life that she went and talked to, that I am eternally grateful to.
Because she said Nancy went and talked to her like it was a friend of Nancy's, not that it was Nancy having this problem. And this lady said, "You tell your friend to stay in that marriage, and work, and God's going to make something beautiful out of it." And that's what Nancy needed to hear, and she came home and she said, "We're going to make this work."
And I said, "Let's take divorce off the table for the rest of our marriage." And we did, at times I wanted to throw it back on. Yes, it hadn't been all roses since then, and like you were saying, John, you still go through things. But when you know that you're committed to each other, and you've taken the loophole out, the exit door away.
I just look at couples that I counsel or know of that maybe been married three, four, five years, and they get divorced. And I think, the heart of this question, "What they're going to miss. What they're going to miss by not growing, and learning, and not having those children together or have children in a broken home." What they could have 20, 25 years. We just celebrated our 53rd wedding anniversary.
Stasi: Oh, congratulations.
Dr. Kim: God, we've talked a lot, this last year, about what God has taught us over the years. And like you were saying, John, the opportunity to share that with other people, to let them know that... My little granddaughter that's 13, for some reason, all her friends follow us on TikTok, which is crazy. But they knew we're married 53 years, and one little girl said, "One of my friends said, 'I can't stand a boy more than three weeks. How can I be with somebody for 53 years?'"
And it goes back to you do it because you see that is God's plan and He's there to help you through it.
John: Well, and gang, let's be honest, if you bail on the marriage, do you really think that the living God is going to then deliver you up the ideal marriage?
This stuff is going to come right back around, everybody. You can't run from your personal transformation, and this is why most people bail.
Now, because we're therapists let's just be honest and say, look, some marriages are violent, some marriages are highly abusive, and in those circumstances you must get to a place of safety, absolutely. So that's not what we're saying. We're not saying go back and take the abuse, go back and take the violence, that is not what we're saying today.
But what we're saying is this, honestly, if you bail on this relationship, you're going to face the exact same man or woman the next day in the mirror. All of your problems are going to stay right there with you, no matter how far you run.
Stasi: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And it's a lesson, and I've seen some people with second marriages that have finally realized that. And I've had a lot of them say, "I love the marriage I'm in now, I wish I'd known this. I wish I would have done that in my first marriage." And, so, God is a God of second chances and He does bring that a lot through a second marriage. So if you're listening and you're in your first, or second marriage, or third. I had one couple, this guy, she'd been married twice, and this was his 6th marriage, but he finally got it and they have an incredible marriage.
And it just showed me God is so good and so patient with us, just that he would just continue with this guy that was a train wreck and, all of a sudden, God got him on the right track. It was so cool. So how do our stories, parts of our story, reflect God's story, even if they are hard and even if they are painful at times?
John: Because they're hard, because they're painful. God's story is a story of redemption that comes at enormous cost. Jesus Christ is, in one place, described in the Scriptures as "The man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." So getting into the story of God does not mean that everything becomes Disneyland.
Getting into the story of God is what opens up the story of redemption, and it is in the heartache, it's in the hard, that the redemption takes place and then people get to see it. They need to see an incarnate experience. They need to see, "Wait, what? You grew up in an alcoholic home and, yet, you're doing well, tell me about that? How did you overcome that?"
"You had childhood trauma."
It's our stories that usher in the redemptive story of God.
Stasi: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. Stasi, do you have anything to add?
Stasi: You think about the power of testimony that it's in hearing other people's stories and the invasion of God, the way He has interfered, the way He's pursued and rescued.
That brings hope, that brings life. So, yes, that is the intersection of my story with the story of God it's the highlight reel. It's where the life comes in, and we do need to hear other people's stories. We overcome by our testimony.
Dr. Kim: I think so, you hit on something, too, John, that I want to go back. The fact that, sometimes, we don't understand what it means when we come to Christ and that we do expect everything to be good. I went through this with a young man, this last year in counseling, with him, and, basically, he went through some really tough times, in the past two years and he felt God wasn't there. God abandoned him.
This was pretty much a Disneyland God and Disneyland God wasn't there. And, so, he had to come to the point of realizing that you are going to go through hard times. And you got somebody that's going to walk through with it that has all the answers.
John: "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for you are with me." It's not that you get to walk around the valley of the shadow of death, you walk through it with God.
Dr. Kim: That's so good, yes, and He's there with us.
Stasi: Yes, always.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. You guys have written a lot about resilience. How can a marriage become more resilient? What does that look like, even?
Stasi: Oh, gosh, that's such a good question.
John: Yes, I have no idea how Stasi is going to answer this, so I'm really curious to hear what she says.
Stasi: Well, we're just talking about the same things here because a Christ-centered marriage and then the power of testimony. Because you look back and you see the faithfulness of God, "He came through here."
This is really, I mean, when you hit a hard place, I'm just going to say, when we're in a hard place, I forget the good times, and I'll think that it's always been hard, and that's really where I need the intervention of Jesus to remind me, "No, that's not true, and we can walk through this, and it will get good again." Because then when it's good, I can't remember that it's ever been hard, but that could be just me.
Dr. Kim: No, I think you're right, it is. When it's hard we think, "Wow, what am I doing?"
Stasi: Yes, but His faithfulness and looking back helps me to look forward. Knowing John, having a testimony of years together and playing together, developing other aspects of our relationship. We're not roommates just paying the bills and keeping the house. We're partners in a shared mission in life and we have fun together, we laugh together.
And, so, pouring all of the many aspects of our relationship, together, is really what helps give it the strength that it has so that we can move forward.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. You said the word shared mission, that is so important for a couple to develop. And, obviously, your mission is very visible because of the things that you guys have done. So how does a couple find that shared mission? Because, I think, that unites you in a really powerful way and it puts God right where He wants to be.
Stasi: Mh-hmm.
John: So, I think, there are two great conversions in the Christian life, and the first one comes when we turn back to God and when we come to salvation, through Jesus Christ. But the second great conversion is when you discover that God wants intimacy with you and that He wants to talk to you. Learning to hear the voice of God. In John 10 Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice."
In Hebrews chapters three and four, "Today, if you hear his voice."
In Revelation 3, "I knock on the door if anyone hears my voice." The reason I'm bringing this up is that learning to do listening prayer together, as a couple, has been so wonderful for us. Not just when you're in a hard place and like, "Gosh, how do we get out of debt, Lord? Or what do we do about this job?" No, for joy, for guidance.
Stasi mentioned play as part of the resilience of a marriage. God has guided us into so much joy because we paused, and listened, and asked, "What do you have for us this year, Father? What do you want us to do for Christmas? Where do you want us to go for summer?" He has so much to say.
And, so, when it comes to shared mission, I would say this would be such a beautiful thing to pray about together and listen to God, and let Him speak into your marriage. "Lord, you brought us together, what's our mission?"
Dr. Kim: So good, yes, because he's not going to give Stasi one answer and you another answer. He's going to put you guys together on that, you can't come to different-
Stasi: Yes, there's a reason why you got married. There's a reason why the husband is the perfect husband for the wife, and the wife is the perfect wife for the husband. You're bringing in desires, and gifting, and callings, and longings, that actually are meant to join up. So, yes, being aware of those, bringing those to God, and, yes, asking them together, developing that conversational intimacy, as a couple ,is really vital.
John: Yes.
Dr. Kim: That is so good. So say they have this goal, I'll say it is the shared mission. How do you work toward that goal individually and together? How does that play out? You guys have done that.
John: Well, when we're teaching listening prayer to couples, we always say, "Ask the next question." Because people will ask God "Lord, is it time for us to move?" And they get a sense from God, they hear, "Yes." And they don't ask, "When or where."
He says, "Yes, I do want you to move two years from now."
"Yes, I do want you to change jobs six months from now."
Ask the next question.
Dr. Kim: That's so good.
John: But, of course, you're going to talk about shared dreams, shared desires. What's on your heart? Do some dreaming together. This is an important part of our marriage, we'll often ask each other, "Honey, what's on your heart?"
"What is Jesus stirring in you?"
"Where are your passions right now?"
"What do you want to do this year?"
To dream together and then ask the next question, don't just rush out on those dreams. Then you take those dreams to God and you say, "Father, what are you saying? Jesus, guide us; are these dreams for now are they for later? Are they for both of us or is it just something you want me to do?" The intimacy, you cannot get away from intimacy with God. The world doesn't work without it. Life and marriage sure doesn't work without it.
Dr. Kim: No, wow, that's so good. Stasi, you thinking something?
Stasi: I was remembering how that crisis that we had at three years in and how John, actually, booked this weekend away to where we had had our honeymoon, so it was really special. And I can remember, Kim, the walk that we took through the snow, where it clicked into me that, "Oh, my goodness, my gifting, my story, the things that I've enjoyed or pursued, they fit perfectly with what John's story is."
And it was mind blowing to go, "Oh, I really am the right woman for him." And with that in mind, to share what my personal dreams are, what made me come alive more, and with his and then, to see that they actually intersect."
And, so, then, to begin to dream together with God about what that might look like, that happened that early in our marriage, and we started moving towards those. Now, it wasn't like we're going to go from A to B. We started moving in the direction we thought God had for us and He did a detour, and we'd follow Him. It looked different than we expected, but we were in it together.
Dr. Kim: And that makes all the difference. And, to me, it's a joy that comes with that. As you see, God just unveiling things or leading you. You're right, sometimes, it's not exactly where I thought this was going to go, but it's always better than I thought it was going to be.
Stasi: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. So what is one way that you're seeing or sensing that God is at work, as you're ministering to people, today, at this stage of life?
Stasi: Ooh, what a good question. I'm looking at you, again, John.
John: We have entered the mentoring stage. After 40 years of marriage, after 45 years of walking with Jesus, intimately, we have a lot to share. We have a lot of wisdom. We have a lot of pain that we've worked through. We have so much that He's taught us. And, so, there's the stage where you become the elders in your church, the elders in your community, the elders at the gate in the old city of Jerusalem. We are entering that stage and really enjoying being able to play that role in other people's lives.
Dr. Kim: That's so good.
Stasi: That's it, that's really it.
Dr. Kim: Yes. I think, when God started doing that with us and some people would ask us to mentor them, and I thought, "What do we have to offer?" And God said, "Do you remember what I taught you?"
"Do you remember what I have brought you guys through? You have a story to share." And we do, and He uses that and it's so powerful.
John: Yes.
Stasi: Yes.
Dr. Kim: That's really good. So one thing I wanted to mention because it's one of the coolest things that I found in the last year and that is the app, The Pause, and your voice is so soothing, John.
John: Oh, that's lovely.
Dr. Kim: But that's just a great way, I think, we all know that we need that and it's such an easy way to do it. Just to click it on and you can pick one minute, five minute, three minute. You can have different lengths of time, Scripture. And I love that then you go, "That's enough for today, for now."
And, so, I just wanted to bring that up because it's such a powerful way to do something that we all know we need to do, but we don't take time to do it.
John: So what Kim is describing, everybody, is right before the pandemic, and we didn't know the pandemic was coming, we released an app. It's free, you can get it on iPhone and Android, it's called Pause, the One Minute Pause. And it is this lovely experience, where twice a day the app will take you through letting everything go, coming back.
It's beautiful music, beautiful Scripture, centering yourself back in your life, in God. And, yes, you can do it for 60 seconds, you can do it for three minutes, there's a five-minute version. And then we also built in there 30 Days to Resilient, which is this lovely morning and evening program that will truly restore your soul's resilience. And what's fun, Kim, is that Stasi and I do it together, you can do this in marriage.
Stasi: Oh, yes, we listen together.
Dr. Kim: So good.
John: So part of our bedtime prayers is we play one of the 30 Days to Resilient evening sessions, and they're about eight minutes long. Lovely music, Scripture, and different voices from around the world as well. And to share that as a marriage and to share that centering experience in Christ together, it's awesome.
Stasi: It is.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. Yes, right before you said that, I thought, "Oh, my gosh, why am I not doing this with Nancy?" When you brought that up.
John: Yes, it works.
Dr. Kim: Because we always have a quiet time together when we go to bed, and right now we've been doing some stuff from the Bible Project, I love those guys.
Stasi: I love that.
Dr. Kim: And this would be a great way for us to begin to end that. But I just wanted people to know that that is there, and what great timing that God used on that right before the pandemic, to have something out there like that.
Stasi: I know.
John: Yes, almost half a million people have downloaded this app now.
Dr. Kim: Unbelievable.
John: And we're just getting in stories coming into our offices of how helpful it is. So it's called the One Minute Pause, it's free and if you just start typing in the one minute, it's going to be one of the first things that comes up in the app store. So, yes, I hope you enjoy that, friends.
Dr. Kim: Yes, so good. As we wrap up, a final question, what's something that you're really enjoying about your marriage today, in this stage of life?
Stasi: John mentioned, I love doing this with him, this is one of the things that I'm loving. I love listening to him. But I love our bedtime ritual, which is really developed and it's extended now, it's long, but we love it. We dim the lights, there's little flickering candles. We listen to a couple of worship songs, center our hearts, and then we'll do a 30 Days to Resilient and then go into prayer, and it's just lovely, it just talks about union with your spouse.
John: Yes, and, gang, let me hold out a hope for you. One of the most wonderful things about our marriage, now, is that we both have a safe place to process things. What I love about our marriage, right now, is that we can process what's going on with our kids. We can process what's going on at work. We can process what's going on in the world. I have someone I can talk to, it's so helpful to hear Stasi, to think through things, pray through things together. Just having that, holy cow, that's incredible.
Stasi: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And you just build that over your marriage, don't you? As you trust each other more, as you let your walls down, as you work through things like an alcoholic family of origin and things like that, to get to the point where, yes, that's just good. Plus, you're at the point which we are, we don't have to help people with homework at night, and we don't have to make sure they're in bed a certain time, so we can do things like that.
John: That's true.
Dr. Kim: You have a freedom, now, that is really good.
John: Yes.
Stasi: Yes.
Dr. Kim: This has been awesome, guys. You guys, I love you both. I love what you do.
John: Thanks, Kim.
Dr. Kim: You mentioned the Pause App. Are there other places that people can find you now, or that you would like to let people know what's going on?
Stasi: Well, our website is wildatheart.org just has tons of resources, writings, videos, blogs, daily readings. All kinds of stuff that we just want to offer and help pour into people, to encourage their life with God, so that's the place to go.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome. I mean, when I first read Wild at Heart, I thought, "Who is this guy?" Obviously, and all of this is awesome. Well, guys, thank you so much, again, for being a part of this. I loved connecting with you, I look forward to seeing you guys again.
John: Yes, bless you, pal, thank you.
Stasi: Thanks.
Dr. Kim: Thank you.
[00:46:11] < Outro >
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