Unpack the Baggage In Your Marriage: What Are You Carrying?

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship. 

Well, today we are beginning our series on Unpacking the Baggage in Your Marriage by going under the surface. We're going to talk about maybe you have the same fights over and over. Maybe you find yourself overreacting sometimes, or maybe things just escalate quickly between you and your spouse, and you don't know why. These might be signs that some underlying issues are affecting your marriage. So listen in as we talk about how to deal with baggage that's hindering your marriage. 

So, Dr. Kim, what types of baggage might be affecting couples. Whether it's from their own past or from their shared past together?

Dr. Kim: Yes, let's define baggage too. I think that baggage in a relationship happens when somebody is still experiencing the residual effects of a past situation. In other words, it's happened back here, maybe in my childhood and it's affecting me now, and it's affecting this relationship. 

So certainly have it from childhood, childhood baggage. And depending on what age those things happen to you, how you interpret them, all those kind of things, those things can last with people a long time. And I've talked to people, I remember one guy, he was in his mid-40s, and something had happened when he was eight years old. That someone had said something and that had defined him for all that time, and he said, "This is the first time I ever told anybody."

So those kinds of things can do that, and it was affecting him in a lot of ways in his marriage and other things. So I think you can bring those things into your marriage. Financial baggage, if you haven't handled finances well in the past and, all of a sudden, you're married and you're still not handling finances well. Before it affected one person, you, now it's affecting two people. So that baggage of financial is doing that.

I think relationships; past divorces, previous dating relationships, if there are some emotional scars from the past. If maybe someone was cheated on, maybe they cheated, been mistreated in a previous relationship or marriage, so it's hard to build trust. So I think past relationships; one thing I've talked to couples about, as they get married, is we got to make sure anything from that has been dealt with. 

"Are you okay with that?"

"Have you let go of that?"

"Have you forgiven?" Those kinds of things because if not, they're going to come into your new relationship. There's going to be similar situations or something, you're going to have some triggers. And then just emotional baggage, maybe, guilt from the past, regrets. Sometimes with emotional baggage, you don't want to experience that pain again. 

And, sometimes, you're hard on yourself or you feel like that things are just not going to happen, and you're not going to be safe in this relationship. 

People have PTSD, I mean, there are all kinds of emotional things that can come in. And, so, in those situations, they feel unsafe, they feel threatened, it's hard for them to trust. So those are just part of that. I think, there's a number of things that you could categorize, but those are the ones that I see quite a bit. The childhood, finances, relationships, and emotional, that a number of people seem to deal with.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, when you give that list, it's hard to think that anyone might, potentially, not be carrying some baggage because it sounds like almost anything.

Dr. Kim: That's right, yes, unless you've lived in a bubble, probably, because we've had... It was a high school romance, but at that time it was my first romance. And, so, you think this is the person, you're naming the kids when you're with her, in my mind. And, so, that breakup was hard. And, so, from that time I was cautious, I didn't want to get hurt again. Getting hurt when you're 16 still hurts because you don't have a bigger picture of things. 

And, so, that was some baggage that I had to deal with. And, so, in the two years that Nancy and I dated, it was building trust with that and, probably, for both of us and deciding, "Okay, I just want to go in, letting ourselves be more vulnerable with each other. So we could have that connection that really let us know, at a pretty young age, this is who we want to be with.

Lindsay: Yes, because those things, just as you list them out and share them. It's like you forget, sometimes, about those little, maybe, somebody made fun of you or said something on the school bus, and it just really stuck with you and shaped the way you viewed the world after that, and those things are real.

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, this is really strange, it didn't have anything to do with marriage. But in second grade, I still remember, it was recess and we were playing kickball, and we were choosing teams, and I got chosen last. And I thought "Man, the heck?" And, so, this was in the last six months, we were somewhere and we were going to play a game, and someone was choosing teams, and that same feeling from second grade came over me. "I will be picked last." I wasn't.

So, yes, we just don't even realize sometimes how things can and you can't let something that happened on a playground, in second grade, define you. I just look now that they were two really stupid captains, it's the way I look at it now.

Lindsay: Well, it's funny because as you were saying that, it took me back to the field, at PE. And kickball I was pretty good, but baseball, softball, I was awful. I was picked last every time and for good reason, honestly, but it's just a terrible feeling. You're just standing there; everyone else's name gets called.

Dr. Kim: You're just praying that they will. I can remember somebody, maybe, the captain was a quasi-friend and before they picked, I just tell them how great they were, and how much I liked them, and thank you for being my friend. Funny things that you do at that age because nobody wants to be picked last but it didn't really matter.

Lindsay: Nobody wants to. And, probably, half of everybody listening is, right now, just really having that feeling "Come up in there."

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes.

Lindsay: Well, that's actually a great lead into my next question for you because you just brought up something I hadn't thought about, and now it's very vivid in my mind. But I've read that when we don't deal with things like this, that they end up driving our actions more than we ever realized. So do you see that in counseling? Do you find that to be true?

Dr. Kim: Yes, just the examples we gave of those triggers that can take us back, well, they're there. And, so, something may happen that triggers something in your marriage. The thing that happened with me, with kickball, it wasn't something triggered a few months ago, with my marriage. But it could have affected me if I held onto those things. 

But things can trigger, and remind you of a previous relationship from your childhood. Some of the things that we have done. And then the other thing is sometimes we can develop some real controlling behavior out of that, if we haven't dealt with it because we don't get hurt again. 

And, so, if I put all these safeguards in place and I don't let myself be vulnerable, then I won't get hurt. The problem is you won't ever have the marriage you want either because you're not willing to deal with that and let those go.

Inconsistent emotions, I've seen people that because of the past, they may be optimistic about a new relationship, and the next day they feel distant. The emotional baggage makes us fear to connect. And, so, there are those unhealed hurts, past trauma, that can come out in your marriage relationship, especially, if they're relational by people important to you as you are growing up, which would be usually parents. Which could be first relationships, or early marriage, or some things like that. 

And, so, if we don't deal with things they don't just go away, and sometimes we hope they will. Certainly, you can pray, and I've seen God heal things. I never would say that that doesn't happen. But I also know God also uses Him working our lives to work through things to bring healing. Because there may be more that He wants to teach us than just zapping us and, all of a sudden, we're okay Zap is, probably, not a good word for God but, anyway, you know what I mean?

It's always good to take a look at ourselves from time to time. And that's where, I'm pushing counseling, again, having a Christian counselor that you can go to, even if you go once a year, after you establish a relationship. Just to get a tune-up and "Let's see if the counselor will pick up anything. This is what I'm struggling with now, what do you think about this?"

Those things help to have an objective person that cares for you and is going to come to you, from a Christian perspective, and that will give you good counsel, and will pray for you, and pray with you, those things. So, yes, if those are there, they need to be identified and dealt with.

Lindsay: Yes, and it's going to be hard to do that. I guess we'll get more into it, but I'm thinking about it's going to be hard to do it if you're not aware of it. If it's something that you've smooshed down and tried to ignore, that's going to be an issue. But let me first ask, so what are some ways that those unhealed hurts or the past traumas are expressed in a marriage? How would that affect their spouse's relationship?

Dr. Kim: Well, we talked about it, so if you've been hurt and you try to control. Say, all of a sudden, you're not a team anymore, you're trying to control this person. So it, certainly, can come out that way. And, then, just your emotions can be all over the place. And, so, you're inconsistent with those. 

And, so, your spouse is getting all kinds of mixed message in there, and it's probably not much fun for you either. It's probably confusing, and that's why I think to pray from time to time, "God surface anything in my life that needs to be dealt with." And trust Him with that because He's not going to surface anything that He does not have an answer for you, to walk through that with. And, so, those are a couple of things, I think, happen.

Depending on what your emotional baggage is there can be fears associated with that, in the relationship. From trusting or to that other person I was with, and they did some things I didn't think they'd ever do. Is this person going to do that? 

Because I was damaged there, whatever those things are. And when it comes from a parent, and it affects with both parents, but you have seen more where it's a father-daughter. Where the father says something to a daughter, at a time, that crushes her, and she carries that forward. Because that was the time where that person, was the most important person in their life. 

And, so, if you've been in those situations, it's surfacing those things. It's forgiving that father because most of the time they didn't mean to do it, they just said it, and then realizing that does not define you. And I think that's a big picture for all of these things that we have with baggage. That baggage does not define who you are, God defines who you are. 

Baggage is something, in your life, you have to deal with but that does not define you. It's so important to know that because some people just label themselves thinking they're going to be this way forever. No, God's got something better for you and He is got something better for your marriage.

Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely, you can say that again, that's so good. As you're saying that I'm seeing the quote being written because that's one we're going to have to share. That "Baggage does not define you, God does." That is so good. 

And, so, a couple of other things I think about, and this you talked some with Chris and Jamie Bailey of Expedition Marriage, 

about this idea of making these assumptions or emotional rationalization. Where because of our emotions we explain or assume what our spouse meant to do, and that was on a Facebook Live. 

But it just made me think about how our own baggage can make us jump to conclusions. It can lead to making assumptions because if you let me down in some way, like say you were going to swing by the store and you forgot to swing by the store. It's easy to assume a negative intent or some, kind of, character issue. Rather than just the simplest explanation, which is just forgetting, when we're carrying some baggage that's unhealed. 

So if we're concerned that our spouse doesn't care about us and then they forget to stop by the store. Then it's like, "Oh, now, I really see they don't care about me." But that's not really the picture, is it?

Dr. Kim: No, I think it makes sense. It made me think of a couple, and this was really interesting. He ended up taking a night job or where he didn't get home until about midnight. And it was to earn more money, it was for a period of time, but she just wasn't all in on that. One of his pet peeves was he really liked the kitchen counters clean, tidy. 

So when he would come in at midnight or so and he'd fix himself something to eat, there were always crumbs left on the counter. And his assumption was, for weeks, "She is doing that to get at me because the crumbs are there every night. She's just mad, she's being passive-aggressive."

Well, what we found out was their ten-year-old was getting up and having a snack after mom got to bed and was leaving the crumbs there. And, so, once all of that came to light, it was a great thing for them. Because then he realized, "It isn't my wife doing this, it's my kid that's sneaking cookies at 10:00, at night."

And we just get in those and make some of those assumptions sometimes, it's that negative framing of our spouse. And we always want to look for the best in our spouse, and if you have a question... What he should have done is said, "When I got home, there were crumbs on the counter. Did you not notice them or something?" 

And then she can say, "Well, no, I made sure everything was clean when I went to bed." And then they can start figuring it out together. But when you let it go and every night he was getting a little more angry, and a little more mad, and all that stuff. But then he would go back to sleep. And, so, he wouldn't see her till sometime during the day, and by then he'd forgot about it. And, so, it just went on and on.

Lindsay: Well, that's a great example, too, and the other way that maybe this is how I would handle it, I don't know, and it's not good. But would be to go, "Hey, you left crumbs, what'd you do that for?" And not even ask, but like, "I saw that you did this?" Clearly, because you just make that assumption and then you operate as if it's true, and it's not always or often.

Dr. Kim: Exactly, so you take your actions on that. Or maybe he started doing something he knew she didn't like. Well, "She's being passive-aggressive, well, I can do that, too." 

And, so, we get into these stupid games. And you always have to go, your filter always has to be, "Does this help my marriage or not?" And if it's not helping it, why are you doing it?

Lindsay: Yes. And this is something, too, you addressed this during the boundary series, but sometimes it's just a habit. Sometimes we have these terrible habits, and we have to figure out someplace to interrupt the habit. So you can get in a healthier pattern.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and it does take some work sometimes, sure, but it's going to be better.

Lindsay: Yes.

[00:15:22] < Music >

Announcer: Just a quick break to tell you about this month's brand new resource from Awesome Marriage, I think you're going to love this one. It's 44 Tips to Better Sex in Marriage: The Sexual Intimacy Cheat Sheet. This cheat sheet has some of Dr. Kim's best time-tested tips to a more satisfying sex life. It's going to help you have the sex life you want in your marriage. 

It's one of the tensest topics in many marriages. But we also believe, we know that sex is a gift from God. So we've brought this new cheat sheet to you to help you achieve a healthier and more fulfilling sexual relationship, in your marriage. Head over to today's show notes to find a giving link for this resource. It's yours for a donation of any amount to the Ministry of Awesome Marriage.

[00:16:07] < Music >

Lindsay: What would prevent people from dealing with this baggage? Why aren't we taking care of business and moving on?

Dr. Kim: Well, you said something, earlier, that I agree with, that sometimes we aren't aware of it. Now, sometimes, people tell me they aren't aware, but 10 people in their lives are telling them that it is. So you got to listen, sometimes, to friends, too. 

Denial, so denial would definitely be part of it, "This can't be me." The fear, and we mentioned fear. "How do I even deal with this?" And I think it is, not knowing, "How do I deal with this? Now I know what it is, how do I deal with it?"

And, so, sometimes it's just helping people see that there is a step they can take, and maybe it's prayer. It's talking to their spouse about it, "Hey, I just realized this, how's it affecting you." Just get some things on the table to talk about. If it's deeper, get some counseling, spend some time with that so you can really work through it and get it resolved because there's always an answer for that. 

So when you discover you have baggage, you want to do whatever you can do to eliminate that. To check your baggage, get it out, get it away from you. 

And, then, I think that the denial thing, sometimes, that's one of the hardest things for us, is that we just don't want to admit that we have a problem here. But I think what I would say, one, pray about it. And, then, two, "Is it affecting my marriage?"

"Is something with me affecting my marriage?" It's always so good to point the finger back at yourself. Because we're really good about pointing the finger at them, our spouse. And, so, anytime you take and say, "Okay, God, search my heart, is there something there that needs to be dealt with? Is there some baggage? Is there something? Would you surface that and help me work through that?"

Journaling can really help in that too, maybe you two decide to do those prayers, journal for a few weeks, and see what God reveals to you. But whatever it is, and you said, we always have baggage. So this is an exercise we can all do from time to time. 

And as you go into different stages of life, you may have some baggage surface that hadn't surfaced before. If you have five years of marriage, and then you have a child. You may not have had any baggage in that five years of marriage. But when you have a child, it brings back some things when you were a child or something else. So it can come up at different stages of your life, too. 

And, so, it's something we always have to aware of. And if I'm doing something that is continuing to cause a problem for Nancy, and in our marriage, and I need to look at myself when my tendency would be to say, "Well, what the heck is wrong with her now? Things were really going good and now something's wrong." Instead of saying, "Oh, my gosh, what am I doing?" What's going on in my life, at that time, and just taking the time to look inside with God's help.

Lindsay: Yes, that's really important, and you're right. I mean, maybe, one big deterrent is that you just don't know what to do about it. So maybe you know there's something, but you shy away from looking deeper because you don't know what the heck to do about it. But then I love what you're saying about, what you're always great at pointing us to. 

You have to look at yourself and point the finger at yourself because you can't even do anything. Even if you were to identify eight things about your spouse, it doesn't matter because they're themselves, and God is in charge of them, and the Holy Spirit is convicting them. 

But if you identify eight things in yourself, or one thing, or whatever, you can actually begin to work on changing that and growing. And that's better for your marriage, it's better for yourself and everything. So even if it's a little daunting or a lot daunting, it's not fruitless because once you start the process, you're going to start to heal from it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and you can, maybe, start with you and God. Maybe God does lead you to a counselor, maybe He'll lead you to your pastor, whatever that is. But take that first step with God and see where He leads that.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's good, that's some good, strong, encouragement. So if you've got something or if 10 people in your life are telling you, you do, you better start listening because it's not going to work to ignore that. So as Christians, we might believe or assume that when we accept Jesus for salvation, He will automatically heal our past. And, so, He does forgive all of our sins, but that doesn't mean all of our baggage goes away. So how does that work out? How does that play out, Dr. Kim?

Dr. Kim: No, it does not mean that all that goes away. That would be nice, but that's not the way God intended it and that's not the way things are right now. And, so, one of the best examples I thought was a really good visual. I heard someone say years and years ago, I mean, they were talking about Lazarus, Jesus' friend that died. And, so, Jesus comes and raises him from the dead. And, so, we get this picture of Lazarus coming out of the tomb. 

Well, he's got life again, but he's still got the grave clothes all over him, and he comes to Jesus and Jesus takes the grave cloth out of him and, I think, that's such a great example. He was raised to a new life, like we have been with Christ. But we've still got these grave clothes on and we need God's help in taking those things off. 

And, so, when we accept Jesus, when we become a Christian, the difference is we've got Him to walk beside us, to carry us through the healing process. Whatever needs to be done, whatever clothes need to be taken off of us, and He's trustworthy to do that. 

So if we can get that picture of He's not going to just, all of a sudden, everything's going to be great, you're going to have this. And Jesus tells us, in John, "In this life you'll have troubles. But be of good faith or be happy because I've overcome the world." My translation. So know that, that's part of life. 

I mean, if I look back at my life, the hard things that I've gone through. That I've allowed Him, asked Him to help me with are the things where I've learned the most, and grown the most. When things are great I enjoy it, I love it. I love laughing all the time, being happy all the time. But I probably don't grow that much, I just enjoy life at that time. But my growth has come, as He's shown me there's always a way out in every situation and He's there to walk me through it.

Lindsay: That's a great example. I love that example of Lazarus because we all wish it were the other way. We wish that Jesus does change everything. But also there's the process of confronting all the patterns, and the thoughts, and the beliefs we have, and that's where maturity comes in our faith. And Jesus spoke about that in the Parable of the Good Soil. When He talks about some people received but then they didn't stick with it, or work it out, or grow down roots, and they didn't proceed in growing their faith, so their faith withered. 

And when we have this hope, I don't want to call it hopeful, but it's a perspective that Jesus would just, automatically, change everything, then that's not going to lead us to a deeper faith that actually sustains us. So it's tough, but we need to make that distinction, as believers, because a lot of times there is this idea that persists that like, "I have the Gospel, so what else do I need?" But the Bible is really clear that you have to continue to renew your mind, and work out what you've learned, and follow what Jesus taught, not just believe it, Jesus is very clear about that.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and we don't live in heaven now, we live in a fallen world. And, so, as long as we're in this world you're going to have hard times. But, sometimes, God's there to help us through it and to help us learn from it, and it's really just part of what we learn in this life, and helping others, and preparing us for heaven someday.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, and it's really hopeful, too, because the Scriptures are not quiet on this topic. So there's a lot of great wisdom to be found there, and I'll just go and put some of those in the show notes, too. Sometimes I like to just add some Scripture because it's really great to have a biblical basis.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, and sometimes that's where I get upset when I hear a pastor, maybe that's pretty much prosperity theology, which there are some truths in that, absolutely. But it's not always if I give $100 to the church the chances of me opening my mailbox, next day, and getting that $10,000 check, that's just not the way it works. We give because God wants us to give. 

And, so, sometimes, when we hear that from a pastor, the kind of prosperity, then it's harder to deal with that reality. And then you start thinking, "What did I do wrong?" Well, nothing, you're a Christian, God's forgiven you, this is just part of life. 

And, so, I just want to add that in because that can be confusing when you hear the prosperity theology. Which, basically, means you give and God's going to give you everything. Well, He is, He's given us eternal life, but He may not give us some of the other things. We may not get that new car like somebody else.

Lindsay: Like that pastor, probably, did when he got everyone to give him.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I wasn't going to say that, but you're a pastor's wife, you can say that. 

Lindsay: We know what's going on out there. Well, yes, and that's a really good distinction because I do think that going along with that is the mindset we were talking about. That if you just have the gospel, then, you don't have to do anything else. And for our salvation, absolutely, the gospel is all you need. But then for working it out, the Scripture says, "Work out your salvation." And, so, that's consistent, you got to keep on walking into that and breaking free, that's really good. 

So what advice would you offer to someone? So if someone is listening to the conversation and they're really resonating with it, and they were suspecting, "Okay, Dr. Kim, you're stepping on my toes. There's some stuff that's probably going on, I'm getting the signals." But they don't know what to do. What would you say to that person?

Dr. Kim: Well, you do look for the signs, and if there's a lack of trust in your marriage, look at it from your perspective. If you're feeling paranoid, I mean, "Everybody is out to get me." If you have anger, if you're having guilt, if you're having regret. If in closeness, in your marriage, you find it hard or stressful, really, to let yourself get close to your spouse. You're needy, you need a lot more from your spouse than they do from you. 

Now, at different times in life, we do. In a marriage that balances all out over time, but I'm talking about really needy. Where it's like you just got to have everything from this person. Control, that you are asking your spouse, "Okay, what are you going to be doing all day? Give me your calendar for Sunday, and Monday, and Tuesday and all that, kind of, thing. 

You're oversensitive, your emotional reactions are just a little extreme. Obviously, you want some sensitivity, but sometimes it just grates at people. And, so, that would be a red flag. And then reassurance that you have to know what your partner or your spouse is thinking, what they're feeling. You want to know all the time that they love you, that they think everything great about you, they would never leave you, and those kinds of things. 

So if any of those things surface, that'd be a good checklist to go through. Did any of those things ring a bell? 

Do you see any of those qualities in you; that closeness, neediness, control, sensitivity, reassurance? 

Do you feel like your trust is hard; more anger, more paranoia?

What is my spouse doing? Guilt, those kinds of things, so if those things are there, they may be related to some baggage.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, so I also heard you say, at the beginning, that look for the signs. So it's like at the beginning we talked about denial. So this is flipping around and getting curious and saying, "What am I seeing?"

"What am I observing?"

"What are people saying to me?" Or even asking for feedback from your spouse or people close to you.

Dr. Kim: Yes, if you're having all those issues, consistently, and, probably, all of us can have some of those at times, in our marriage. But if it's something that's consistent, then, I could see someone suspecting. That's when you think, "Oh, maybe there is a past issue that hasn't healed, and that's why this keeps coming up because my spouse really is faithful and my spouse really is trustworthy. They've never given me anything to trust and I still feel that way, why do I feel that way?"

And, so, if you begin to ask yourself some questions and you realize, "Well, yes, it's because of Johnny, that I dated when I was 16."

Or "It's, maybe, because my dad was an absent father and I'm bringing that forth. So if my husband goes on a business trip and I have this fear that he'll never come back, even though it's unrealistic." And, so, you start beginning to dig, and look, and trying to let God help you connect the pieces there.

Lindsay: Yes, that's really good, that's good. As we were talking, though, it just made me think of one more place, I don't think that we mentioned this earlier. Do you think that, in a marriage, unresolved conflict between the spouses is a type of baggage in the marriage?

Dr. Kim: I think so, depending on, probably, how damaging it was, how intense it was, maybe, how it escalated, if you were hurt. Anytime you get in conflict and it becomes a win-lose instead of a win for the marriage, then, I think, a negative thing happens to one person. Really to both, but the person who won doesn't see it that way. That I won, they don't realize the damage that's doing to their marriage. So, yes, I could see things that happen then, and then how that could cause you to react a certain way, in the future, and some things like that. Yes, that makes sense.

Lindsay: Yes, I'm just thinking about all these different things that are coming up as we're talking, so let's get it all out.

Dr. Kim: Well, it is, and there are a lot of scenarios. Yes, anything you can think of that people might identify within that, for sure.

Lindsay: Yes, because where we want to go with this is that we're not afraid to confront these things, and to start just really, actively, looking for that information so we can, actively, look for that healing.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. 

Lindsay: Yes, so what if a listener is sensing that their spouse might be dealing with unresolved issues. Can they call that out or will that just create more problems?

Dr. Kim: I would, probably, say just, in general, that depends to really how well do you know your spouse. Can you talk to them about things like that? Because if you can, you can say, "Maybe I know your childhood was rough, or some things with a previous spouse, and I know those things you've said. I can just tell, we've talked about how it affects you, and I want to help you. I want to walk with you, I want you to trust me. How can I help?"

And, so, you talk about communicating better, maybe being more patient with that person and understanding. Make sure you're always honest in the situation. Stay positive, have empathy, empathy is so important in these situations. The more you can put yourself in your spouse's shoes, look at it from their perspective. Because on your end it maybe doesn't make sense, because you grew up in a home where your parents were great. You don't have any issues or any problems with that at all. 

And, so, you're thinking, "Well, that's just silly." No, they grew up in a different place than you did. Can you have empathy there? Listening really well, and then be willing to go to counseling with your spouse. Sometimes maybe their spouse needs it more than you do, go with them that first time. Let the counselor say, "Hey, I want you all to continue to come together."

Or, "Hey, I'd like to meet with you alone for a while because we've identified these issues today." So you don't want to just live with it and not address it at some point. 

It's figuring out who your spouse is and what's the best approach. But approaching it as a team, "I want to come alongside you. I know God got something better for us, and I'm willing to walk through this with you." All those things will help.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's really good. It's always back to that team approach.

Dr. Kim: It makes such a difference, doesn't it? I mean, when Nancy and I are not a team, and we do so much better than we used to. But, man, we used to fight battles alone and it just never worked, not like it will when you're a team. Because when you work as a team and you're fighting a battle, you win, your marriage wins. You're on the same page and working at it together.

Lindsay: Yes, well, and this could be really helpful, thinking about it in terms of a marriage. Like your spouse, you know your spouse better than anyone else knows them, and they know you better. So if we are in this posture that we've been talking about, through this episode, of actually looking for the information and wanting that feedback, then that's going to help.

If our spouse is willing to bring something up because it'll help us to narrow in on it, and get some more information about how we might be presenting this baggage to the world that we can't really see. So that would be a helpful thing. 

So if a couple is listening, together, they can have an easy initiation into that conversation. But if it's just one spouse it would be helpful, like you said, Dr. Kim, knowing what you know about your spouse and using a lot of empathy and like a partnership there.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I totally agree with all that. Also, it made me think of a lady that told me, she said she listened to one of our podcasts and felt it really fit them. So she just invited her husband to listen to it with her again, and when he did, it helped him hear what she heard. It helped him be on the same page, in addressing the issue that we talked about at that time. And that gave her a way to get into something that she'd been aware of, thought about, but just didn't know how to bring it up. 

And, so, by using the podcast she was able to get into that subject with her husband, in a really positive way.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's awesome, I love hearing that.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I thought it was so cool.

Lindsay: That's super cool. So just know if your spouse invited you to listen to this, or if they forwarded it to you, it's because they love you. It's not because they're trying to change you.

Dr. Kim: No, and if they are, let us know because that's not what we mean.

Lindsay: We didn't say to change. No, we cannot change somebody. But I do think that it's really helpful to have a little bit of an easy entry anytime you can get it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, and, sometimes, especially, for us guys, it's a lot easier for us to listen to a podcast, or something like that, than you hand us a book to read. My feeling is, and most guys, if you're going to hand them a book, get it on tape. Get an audiobook so they can listen to it in their car and stuff like that. Because most guys, in my experience, has been, I really don't assign books anymore unless I want them to listen to something because people don't seem to read like they used to. Then you're going to be mad because that book is... 

I had a lady tell me, one time, and this is before I quit using books as much, and recommended audiobooks. And I said, "This would be a really good book." And I was just meeting with her and she goes, "I'll stack it, it'll be number 10 on the stack of books that I've got next to his side of the bed."

I said, "Okay, we're not going that way." Good information, I need to know that. 

Lindsay: When our counselor signed us a book, I read it because I like paper books and Brian listened to it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, whatever works, I listen to everything, now. I've got a paper book that I heard someone talk about, that's probably a 400-page book, I've been working on it for five months now. Because I just don't pick it up and read it that much, but I love it. Every time I read, I think, "I need to read this more and get finished." So I just turned into page 400, I think, so I'm getting there.

Lindsay: It sounds like a good one, it's worth it.

Dr. Kim: But on audio, and I tried to find it on audio. That was the thing; the book was self-published and it's not on audio.

Lindsay: So you're stuck.

Dr. Kim: So I'm stuck, exactly.

Lindsay: Oh, gosh, yes, that's a good point, valid digression. So we've done a good job of covering a lot of what is it? How do we start to deal with it? How do we know it's there? And then also just getting on the same page and trying to work for some healing either individually or together. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. 

Lindsay: What final piece of advice would you give our listeners today, Dr. Kim?

Dr. Kim: Well, I love what you said earlier, Lindsay, when you said we all have baggage because we do, from somewhere, or some way or another. And, so, maybe just take some time and say, "God, if there's something, would you reveal that? Would you surface that?" And then just journal and See what God does with you on that. 

Maybe do that maybe once a week, for a few weeks, and see if anything surfaces. And just trust God to surface anything that's going to make your life better 

or He'll give you the courage to be in your marriage better and trust Him to do that, and that would be time really well spent. I think it's hard for us to slow down and do something like that. 

But maybe think of your week and a time where maybe you've got a window of 30 minutes to an hour, where you could just really sit alone and do this. If you got young kids, then, maybe after goodbyes in bed, one night, whatever that is. I think you'd never regret taking the time to do that and see what God does.

Lindsay: That's really good, that's great advice. Yes, if you've got older kids, it's in the morning because they are not around in the early hours.

Dr. Kim: There you go.

Lindsay: That's my saving grace, it's early, dark hours. Well, that's really good. So if you have any questions, or concerns, or need prayer, just always feel free to reach out to us at info@awesomemarriage.com. We always love hearing from you and we answer all of our emails, so if you need us, that's where you can find us. 

Tune in next week because we have an awesome interview coming with Dr. Kelly Flanagan continuing on this subject. So make sure you tune in to hear that interview with Dr. Kim and Dr. Kelly Flanagan. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today.

[00:38:29] < Outro >

Announcer: Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. 

Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.