The 3 Words With The Potential to Change Your Life With Pastor Mark Batterson | Ep. 554

[00:00:00] < Intro >


Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations, and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I'm your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.


Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. I am so excited that Mark Batterson is our guest today. Mark is the lead pastor of the National Community Church in Washington, DC. He has a Doctor of Ministry degree from Regent University. He is a New York Times bestselling author and his newest book, Please Sorry Thanks: The Three Words That Change Everything is now out. 


Mark and his wife Lora live on Capitol Hill, they have three adult children, you are going to love this interview. Let's go the studio right now. Well, Mark, what a joy to have you with us today, on the podcast. Thanks so much for spending time and it's good to finally meet you. 


Mark: Well, it's a joy and privilege, I can't wait. 


Dr. Kim: Okay, that's great. Well, let's get into it, obviously, the new book and, so, in there you say that the best predictor of success in life, in love, and in leadership is the proficiency of Please Sorry and Thanks. That's a strong claim, but I totally agree. But let's talk about why that is true, and how you got to that. 


Mark: Well, in my experience, nothing opens doors like please, nothing mends fences like sorry, and nothing builds bridges like thanks. If you're good at those three words, you're good to go. And it's true in marriage, in the workplace, even in our relationship with God, those three words really have tremendous power, especially, when those words become a lifestyle.


Dr. Kim: I love that you said that with our relationship with God because I don't think we always think about that. Maybe we do a lot of pleases, sometimes, we forget the sorrys and thank yous, but I think that's such an important thing for us to do. 


So most of us, maybe, my mom, if I didn't say please and thank you, growing up, well, I got talked to. It was like, "No, this is the way you're supposed to do that." But we grew up with that and we get into a culture. And, sometimes, we think, "Well, some of the younger generation didn't say it as much." And I love it when I hear people, younger than me, saying that is "Because it was ingrained in me."


And I so agree with you, it makes such a difference. Why do people have trouble with it, today? Why do they need a reminder to do that? Because we live in a really rough culture right now, and kindness is not on the tip of everybody's tongue. 


Mark: It's not, there is a tremendous amount of political polarization. And, of course, I pastor a church in Washington, DC, so we feel those tensions all the time, 

and there's a basic lack of civility or even common grace. And, so, I do think, on one level, we just need a rising tide of please, sorry, and thanks, to change the tone of the conversation. 


I actually think these words are postures in a sense, that if I'm going to understand you, I have to stand under you, for a minute. I have to listen long enough, and I may not agree, but I have to listen long enough to really understand. And it might be interesting, Kim, for me, to share just right up front, four principles of peacemaking. Because that's what comes to mind that we need to listen well, ask anything, disagree freely, and love regardless. 


And those four things are hard to come by today, and I'm not saying anything that anybody doesn't know. There is a lot of trolling, and baiting, and canceling, and I just think common grace has gone out the window. We've turned each other into common enemies. If we don't look alike, vote alike, think alike. 


But the problem with that is this, at a very fundamental level, the image of God in me greets the image of God in you. That we are made in the image of God. So I don't think we're given the luxury of treating people as anything less than the image of God. And, so, I hope and pray – Please Sorry Thanks is one of those books that maybe creates a little bit of a rising tide in culture, and we can recapture some of that civility and I also think it's good theology.


Dr. Kim: Well, and it's so timely for where we're right now because as a counselor, I see it. When I'm in the counseling room with people, I see people's stories. The battles that go on, on social media, Facebook and things, it's just like, "Wow."


And, so, I don't think we give grace very well, and it's like we've got to be right and they've got to be wrong. I love what you started with, "Let's listen though. Because as a culture, we don't do that very well, do you agree? 


Mark: I do, and you're the professional, Kim, you reflect and listen for a living. But for all of us, the Apostle James said, "Be slow to speak and quick to listen." And maybe if we used our two ears and our one mouth, in that proportion, the world would be a better place and we would have a lot more understanding. Most of us listen in order to formulate our response. Instead of really listening to I, at least, want to understand. I don't agree with you but I, at least, want to understand why you think what you think, and give a measure of grace to those that we may not agree with.


Dr. Kim: So, yes, it's really easy for us to while someone else is talking to be formulating what we're going to say next, and how we're going to counter what they're saying. And, then, that just doesn't go well, does it?


Mark: It really doesn't. It turns into more of a monologue than a dialogue. 


Dr. Kim: Yes, of course, then, we take it into a marriage situation. If I'm not listening to my wife, Nancy, and then I have this great comeback or something, and she thinks, "Well, you didn't listen to a thing I said."


Mark: Yes.


Dr. Kim: So consequences will, probably, differ in different settings, but in a marriage you want to listen to your spouse. And, I think, it's so easy for us to tune out today or if it sounds a little bit like it's not something we're going to agree with, that we don't want to hear it. And, so, we think, "Okay, how are we going to fight back?"


Mark: Yes, and if I step back a little bit, Kim, part of the challenge that we face is that our technology has taken us to a place where the face-to-face relationship, well, I mean, we live in a very digital virtual reality. 


And, so, I don't think we were designed to know everything about everyone, all the time. In fact, in some ways, I think, social media can seem like the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That we don't have the emotional capacity, even with real-time news and all of us, our hearts break when there is tragedy. When there is an earthquake in Turkey or there's a mass shooting somewhere else, I mean, these things are heartbreaking. 


The challenge is it's hard for us as a single individual, to be able to handle all of that emotion, all of that grief. And then you really don't have much leftover for the personal, intimate, relationships, be it marriage, or family. And, so, we find ourselves in a culture where there just are a lot of voices competing for airtime. And, unfortunately, all too often, the loudest voice wins when it probably shouldn't be the loudest voice that's winning. 


Dr. Kim: Yes, so do you ever recommend to people to just get off the social media for a while or to just get away from the news for a while?


Mark: I do, it's a powerful way to fast. We think about fasting is giving up food, for a time, which is powerful. But I'll, occasionally, do a silent retreat, where for 24 hours, no inputs and it's a little bit of ear cleansing, and it's soul cleansing. And, so, we've got to find a way to dial down some of those voices, some of the white noise, and make sure that the still, small, voice of the Holy Spirit is the loudest voice in our lives.


And, so, the question I'm asking these days is what percentage of your thoughts, words, and actions are a regurgitation of the media you're watching or social media you're following? And what percentage is a revelation you're getting from God's Word? We've got to make sure that we're controlling inputs. So that our thoughts, and our speech, and our behavior begin to line up the way that they should. 


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, a couple of things I've started doing that really tie in and help, is, one, I have found a new service that just gives me bullet points. And I'll look at that because I do want to know what's going on in the world. I don't want to feel like I'm sticking my head in the sand. And if I want to go into more depth, I can, but I'm not bombarded with it, it lets me know. 


And the other thing, it's what you were saying, with your 24-hour fast, it's just unplugging on Sunday and, Mark, it was hard to start with. I wanted to go to my computer, I wanted to pull my phone out. But I'm getting better at it and I'm seeing the value in it. And we just need to do that, don't you think?


Mark: We do, we get dopamine hits the wrong way and, unfortunately, sometimes we get it from the Likes on social media. But I'm not sure that that's where we should be taking our cues from. And, so, I'm with you, let's not bury our heads in the sand. But we've got to make sure that those things are getting filtered in the right way. And part of that has to do with defining what your values are, what you believe in, and then having those convictions to guide you. 


And, so, that's true in life and, I think, for the record, it's true in marriage, too. You got to know what are those values? What are those convictions?


I remember, for a long time, we had a little note card on our mirror, when our kids were younger, that said, "Choose your battles wisely because if you don't, everything's a battle." And, so, you have to begin to define those things so that you're not living reactively, but you're living, proactively, out of those values. 


Dr. Kim: That's so true, we just don't choose our battles wisely a lot, anymore. We just don't do that. I love what you're saying about just in marriage, as a couple, it's good conversation for a couple, "How are we going to handle this?" Because I've worked with couples where one of them has just gotten consumed with social media into it, and they're fighting every battle. But it was affecting their marriage, like you said, you use all your energy up during the day. And then when you get home, together, it's like "I don't have anything left for you." And that's not good. 


And, so, if couples can have that conversation and say, "How are we going to handle this?" And, like you said, "What are our priorities? Is God really first and each other second?" Then we need to do some things different.


Mark: Yes, well, and some of that requires the self-awareness to know how different things are affecting us. If some of those inputs, be it media or social media, are affecting us negatively, those that we love most or spend the most time with are going to feel some of that effect. So being able to identify that. 


I was actually from a therapist in our church, I was introduced to this idea of allostatic overload, this idea of the cumulative stress. Where you just hit this point, where you're just carrying this huge backpack on your shoulders. And all too, often, we accumulate these stressors, or we have negative interactions in the workplace, and then we bring that home. 


Instead of taking the backpack off outside the front door, and then the next thing you know those stressors begin to find their way into the marriage. And that's not a that's not a prescription for a happy, healthy, holy marriage, I don't think.


Dr. Kim: No, and someone is listening or watching, today and say they're seeing this in their spouse, and they're concerned. Would you advise them to confront that, to get it on the table?


Mark: Yes, and the first thing I would do is make sure you know their love language. And, so, speak it in their language, and maybe soften the soil a little bit before you deliver that news of the way it's affecting you. But, yes, we've got to have ways of just, honestly, evaluating the effect that things are having. And, sometimes, we don't know the effect that it's having on our husband or wife. They aren't us and we aren't them. I mean, I've been married 30 years, but my wife is still figuring me out and I'm still figuring her out. 


Dr. Kim: Yes, well, Nancy and I have been married 53 years and we do, we still learn things about each other. Because, over time, we change and God grows us and changes us. And, so, I tell somebody, if you're getting bored and you're married, you're not really spending time with each other. Because I don't think anyone can learn everything about a spouse in a lifetime. There's just so much and we get away from that. So let's go back to some of the words – please – does seem easy. But what keeps us from using it? What stands in the way of us using please, consistently?"


Mark: Well, we want what we want when we want it, and this is going to sound so simplistic. But when I'm doing premarital counseling, with couples, one of the things that I'll say is, "The quickest way to a dissatisfied marriage is just focus on getting your needs met." You just focus on getting your needs met, and it's going to be a long, hard, road.


But if you begin to focus on what does my spouse need? Then it changes the game because as you begin to care for that person, then it becomes this reciprocal thing. And, so, with please, it's even when something is within our right or even in the workplace, where someone works for you. It still is a lot more effective to ask than to tell and to put the ball in their court, and that's what the word please does. It has to be authentic, it has to be sincere, and it works in marriage as well. "Pretty, please..." will get you a lot further than any demand, or nagging, or threats.


Dr. Kim: And it seems like it softens everything going into it. If I'm saying please, maybe, I get someone's attention better. Maybe they listen to what I'm saying better. Because we're so used to people coming off harsh, or strong. I think, we might stay in a defensive mode so much that it can really soften things. 


Mark: It really can and it empowers the other person, it's a word of honor. It's a word of respect. I respect your time, I respect your thoughts, I respect your resources. And, so, that please has a way of leveling the playing field. And I just think the ground is level at the foot of the cross, is how I like to say it, and it's true with that word, please, it has a leveling effect. 


That this isn't one-upmanship. It's not about, in fact, "Greatest of all is the servant of all." So there's something about putting yourself in that posture of please. Please washes other people's feet, and when it does that, then, it has a way of creating this healthy equilibrium in a relationship. 


Dr. Kim: Yes, I was just thinking of people listening, today, and just thinking "Well, yes, if my husband did that, I would do it." But what if they just today said, "I'm going to start saying please to my spouse and just see what happens." Don't you think they'd see something different? I mean, their spouse's head may spin around a couple of times, but you're going start something different.


Mark: Yes, and you have to be the change that you want to see. So you've got to set the tone and that might even lead into this word sorry. It's one thing, it's hard to say sorry, but it's really hard to be the first person to say sorry.


Dr. Kim: Yes. 


Mark: And that's where taking the initiative, with these words is where you can really see a profound impact on your relationship. 


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, early in our marriage, Nancy was always quick to say sorry, so I didn't. I didn't have to be the first to say it. And she finally figured out, "He's never going to say it first." And, so, I remember we had a talk back then, and we both use it easy now. But, sometimes, it is whether it's our pride or whatever gets in like, "Well, when they say it we'll say it." And it just begins the healing process, whatever that needs to be in a relationship, when you say it.


And you can have fun with it. Just as you think of these three words and just saying, "God help me to recall those, help me to use these today." And then just see the results, people are going to be just really pleased in the response they get. In a marriage it's pretty healthy, anyway, or at least, working toward that. Certainly in some difficult situations that are abusive it, probably, isn't going to work in the way we're talking about. But most marriages, that's going to make a difference.


Mark: Yes, and I love something about the way that you said that, Kim, makes me think that these words are a science. And, of course, I talk about the psychology of please, the science of sorry, and the theology of thanks. But they're also an art form, and there are ways of being really creative with these things and just being intentional with it. 


I just had this thought fire across my synapses, that I have a spiritual father, who's 80 years old, who is a brilliant question asker. And he'll ask questions like, "Who left their fingerprints on your soul?" Questions that are said in a way that really make you think. But whenever we talk, he normally doesn't start with asking me how I am. He'll say, "How's Lora?" My wife. And he knows that how my wife is doing is a huge reflection on how I'm doing, and how I'm doing as a husband. So just asking questions is another one of those things. 


Occasionally, we'll even pull out one of those deck of cards that are questions, that help you dialogue about interesting things, just to go a little bit deeper in your conversation. As opposed to, maybe, the logistics of picking up kids from school, or the latest challenge in the workplace. You've got to find ways to keep going a little bit deeper than that. 


Dr. Kim: That's really good, and I get that with families and I see that, and they've three, or four kids, or even two kids, or one kid, at certain ages, you're so busy with all that. And just one things I've tried to get couples, you've got to set aside time for each other. But doing these little things by saying "I'm sorry," things like that. No, you're not having a 15-minute conversation, but you're saying something that connects you with your spouse, and there's a bridge there. 


Mark: There is. 

Dr. Kim: I also have couples that I've had someone say, "Well, yes, he says sorry, but I don't think he really means it." So how do we get past that? What's the difference between a real apology and an empty apology?


Mark: Well, it's pretty simple, you follow up. What are you sorry about?


Dr. Kim: That's so good, absolutely.


Mark: And we do that with our kids because if our kids don't know what they're sorry for, they're going to do the same exact thing over again. 


Dr. Kim: Sure.


Mark: So I do think I've been guilty, more than a time or two, of saying sorry but only because I want the argument to end. Not because I have any idea what I'm sorry about. But that's treating a symptom instead of the root cause. I might say that, on the sorry front, taking ownership, it takes two to tango. Every problem is complicated, and there's layers, it's like a layered cake, and the truth is, all of us have a little piece of that. 


And, so, it's important to own your piece, and then that allows someone else to own their piece. And, so, one thing that might help, I remember in grad school, I was fascinated by Milton Erickson, and some of his therapist techniques. Which I'm sure both of us, we don't, probably, embrace all of them because he was he was pretty far out there. 


But I do remember this from one of his books, he said, "You need some ground rules that when you're going to have an argument, you have to do it in the shower, fully clothed." Which it just sounds crazy, but it's enough to disrupt the status quo and "What are we doing standing in a shower fully clothed, arguing?" And what he was trying to do, and my counselor says it this way, "Well, I want you to operate a little out of your programming." 


And, so, we've got to find ways in marriage to have ground rules, and operate a little outside of our programming to resolve some of those issues. And, for the record, Kim, thanks for doing what you do. I'm actually praying that God would raise up another generation of counselors and therapists because we're going to need more of you, in the days to come.


Dr. Kim: Thank you.


Mark: So thanks for doing what you do. 


Dr. Kim: And I do, I feel the same way you do, and I trust that God will do that. He, certainly, called me and I love what I do and it's hard, in a lot of ways, but it's so rewarding in so many ways.


[00:25:20] < Music >


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[00:26:22] < Music >


Dr. Kim: So let's talk about the list of good questions in the chapter that's called Secret Sauce. These are great for any relationship. So share, a little bit, about those questions what they are.


Mark: Yes, well, a good question, in my mind, Kim, is better than a good answer. And the reason why I say that is that it's going to facilitate conversation at a level, that is going to help us process at a deeper level. I would back up one step and say I'm always curious about people's Myers Briggs letters, or Enneagram numbers, or StrengthFinders combination. 


But if you got a thinker and a feeler talking, well, the thinker is probably going to ask, "What do you think?" Instead of what do you feel, and the feeler is, probably, going to say, "What do you feel instead of what do you think?" And they're almost talking two different languages. So learning to ask open-ended questions, that aren't just yes or no. Learning to ask echo questions, "Here's what I'm hearing, but am I hearing you right?"


And then the last one, I love curveball questions. Questions that "I did not see that coming." And, so, I'm a connoisseur of questions. Not long ago I was with someone who said, "Hey, tell me how you're doing on a scale of one to 10, but the answer can't be seven."


Dr. Kim: Oh, that's good.


Mark: Yes, because what he had found is that everybody says seven because it's so safe. 


Dr. Kim: Seven, that's right, it is.


Mark: Because you say eight, you're doing pretty good and you better substantiate that. And if you're a six, that's close to a five, and you better know why you're doing that way. So it's a fun chapter that will begin to help couples, maybe, communicate at a level that is a little bit more like ping-pong, back and forth, as opposed to just a monologue.


Dr. Kim: That's awesome. Well, and you just taught me something because I do one to 10, all the time with couples. I'm going to add the seven in there, "You can't use seven." Yes, that's awesome.

Mark: I love it.


Dr. Kim: Yes, it is and, if maybe some people are listening and watching this, Mark, and they're saying "Yes, that sounds good, but that's a lot of work." So what would you say to that?


Mark: Yes, I mean, anything worth doing is worth hard work. Listen, if you got married you signed up for this. No one said it was going to be easy, and you've got to work at it. Last year I biked to Sentry, Kim, with my oldest son because I've learned that you have to be a student of your kids, and if you do what they love to do, you'll have an ongoing relationship. It was really hard to train for that 100-mile bike ride, but I did it out of love. 


And, so, in the same sense Please, Sorry, and Thanks, they're simple words, but it takes some hard work to get good at it. But they pay dividends when you get good at these three words, it's this rising tide that's going to float your marriage, that's going to help the workplace. And even on a cultural level, if our culture got just a little bit better at Please Sorry, and Thanks, it would be a new day, it would be a different day.


Dr. Kim: Even if we just said each one on them one time during the day, it'd be better than a lot of what we have.


Mark: Yes, absolutely.


Dr. Kim: A couple of couples come to my mind that I work with, that are going to love this, and they're almost going to see it as something that's fun to do. It's just where they are, healing has taken place and they're ready to take the next step. And, really, I could see some couples just saying, "I'm going outdo you."


"I bet I can out-sorry you, today."


"I bet I can out-please you, today." And just get that habit because you said, a little bit earlier, we get in these cycles. And you're going to break those cycles or you're going to stay in them, and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over, and thinking, "Why anything isn't getting better?"


Mark: Yes, you have to make or break the habits that are going to make or break you. And that now gets to that third word thanks. Because let me just share a really practical thing, that's been so good for our marriage. We Sabbath from Sunday night to Monday night because I pastor a church. So we begin that Sabbath by sharing gratitude, and it just creates this positive energy. "Over the last week, what are you grateful for?" And what's so interesting is my wife will find things that she's grateful for that, "Oh, I forgot about that."


Or "I didn't notice that." And it almost is like we double each other's gratitude just by walking through that process. And, then, even at the end of the year, calendar year, we do a two-day retreat where we do budget and calendar, and we may try to come up with a word of the year a verse of the year. But we're also spending a lot of time just, "What are we grateful for?"


The theology of things can be such a bonding thing, for a couple. In fact, I remember, Kim, hearing Gary Smalley say this one time that "Most marriages are about 80% good, 20% bad. But the difference between a happy marriage and an unhappy marriage is whether you focus on the 80% or the 20%." And he would be the first person to have said, "Work on the 20%, don't ignore the 20%."


But you have to remind yourself of why you love this person, and why are you married to this person? You have to focus on those positives because your focus will determine your reality. And, I think, thanks is about our focus. It's focusing on the things that you are grateful for and, then, it begins to feed that flywheel of gratitude.


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, that's so good. Yes, it's just getting in the habit, really, it's a great habit to have of just to do those things on a consistent basis.


Mark: It is, and, to me, marriage, like everything else, are the day-in day-out, week-in week-out habits, be they good or bad. That are going to make or break that relationship, and it's hard to change habits. But that's where you've got to find ways during different seasons, you may try gratitude for 40 days. Maybe it's hard for you to commit for the rest of your life, I get that. But could you do something for X number of days, and then see what effect it has on your relationship?


Dr. Kim: Oh, I yes, I think, it'll have an immense effect because it's so true how many times we focus on the 20%. And if we're not focusing on the 80%, that 20 could be 30, at some point because we're just not doing that, and I love that because it connects us. And, too, just asking God to help us see things we're grateful for, I try to get couples to do that. If they're at a hard time, I'll say, "Well, why did you get married?"


"Well, he was really nice back then, he blah, blah, blah."


And I said, "Well, when did it change?" And just try and help them see, get back in touch with why they married each other, and that can still be rekindled. And we just have a tendency to let life get in the way of it. And, like you said, we don't get intentional about the things that are really going to make a difference in our marriage. It's so good.


Mark: Yes, no doubt. 


Dr. Kim: So let's talk about God, for a minute. Fostering bitterness and how that does block our intimacy with God. How does that happen? 


Mark: Well, I want to be as unoffendable as I can be, Kim, that's one of my goals. "It's to the glory of a man to overlook an offense." Because if you let a seed of bitterness get into your heart, you know what I found? You can't even look that person in the eye, anymore. And, to me, the solution for that is to begin to pray for them. 


And, so, when I pray for someone, now I'm able to look them in the eye. But it was a counselor who took me through a forgiveness exercise that was really a game changer for me. He just said, "Hey, take some time, is there anyone or anything that you have not forgiven?"

And I thought it would take two minutes, and two hours later I was still identifying that, "Oh, I have accumulated some bitterness, some unforgiveness."


And, so, whatever we don't confess we repress, and then whatever we repress, really, begins to depress. And, so, this ancient truth of confessing sin, whether you even believe in the Bible or believe in God, it's the way we're hardwired as humans. If you don't forgive, it's going to be this backpack that you carry around, and it's going to weight you down, and you're also letting someone live in your head rent free. 


So don't it, you got to practice this sorry, let it go, you have to cut the cord, pray a prayer of release, and forgive them the way that God forgives us. And, then, it's a fresh start, it's a reset, that allows us to really renew our relationship.


Dr. Kim: Because, really, you're still giving that person power in your life, in a negative way, when you don't forgive. 


Mark: You are, and you're letting them dictate the terms. You cannot control them; you cannot make them feel differently about you. But you can control, you have responsibility, the ability to respond. And, so, in my experience, listen, if Jesus, on a cross, said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Then I've got to be willing to forgive others. And marriage, to me, is the crucible in which we learn to love another imperfect person. I like to think of marriage this unconditional commitment to an imperfect person. 


Dr. Kim: Yes.


Mark: And when you do that, you begin to understand the way that God loves us.


Dr. Kim: Yes, because we come in with some very unrealistic expectations sometimes, and we're imperfect and, so, I agree. One thing I was thinking there, as you were saying that, and I love what you're saying about your counselor. And you thought "This will take me two minutes, and then two hours later." 


I think, too, praying about that and asking God, now, it's a dangerous prayer, so you got to be willing to work through it. But to ask God, "God, do I have any bitterness? Do I have any unforgiveness in me? Would you surface that?" And then take the time, either to journal or listen to that, and see what God brings up. It'll be hard, don't you think? But it's a big step toward healing.


Mark: It is and it's healthy, holy, and it will set you free. Most of us are carrying more unforgiveness and more bitterness than we know, and that is where the Holy Spirit can begin to surface some old hurts, that He wants to heal. And, so, you have to do the hard work, though, you have to have the courage to take a long, hard, look in the mirror and to evaluate how you really feel about others. But if you're willing to do the hard work, that's the thing that could pay the most dividends in your life.


Dr. Kim: Yes, one, I think God will show up in those prayers because He wants that for us. And, two, so people know that God's not going to reveal anything that He's not going to give us the way out, the answer to it, right?


Mark: Yes, and He's so good at helping us figure out how do we untangle those knots inside of us and He's the one who helps us do it. The reality is that in some instances, forgiveness is the greatest miracle. To be able to come to a point because there are so many people that have been genuinely hurt physical, verbal, sexual. 


There are so many people that have been violated in ways that it's hard for me to even imagine, that it takes the Holy Spirit's help. And you're not saying that what they did is okay, it's not okay. But someone has said that "Unforgiveness is like drinking rat poison and thinking that it'll kill the rat." No, it's going to poison you. 


And, so, I'm hoping that, that middle part of this book, Please Sorry, Thanks will help people walk through and do the hard work of forgiveness. And it's not easy, but it's the thing that can really set you free, the truth will set you free. 


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, the book can really make changes that will make your life, your marriage, so much better. Because you're really letting God, asking God, to help you live your life the way He wants you to live out, aren't you? 


Mark: Yes, it's coming into alignment with that good, pleasing, and perfect will and, and He's the God who even stands at the door and knocks, He doesn't break the door down. Romans 2:4 says that "God's kindness leads us to repentance." So when God wants us to change He shows us kindness, and if that doesn't work, He shows us more kindness. And, so, we, probably, ought to follow suit in our marriages. 


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, so let's talk about marriage, a little. Let's talk about shifting the atmosphere in a home. We also might get a lot of questions about people who really want to do that. They know change needs to take place, they want to do it, but their spouse isn't on board. So what can they do? 


Mark: Well, that is a challenging situation, let's acknowledge that up front. But there's this old adage that "When the student is ready the teacher will appear." So you do have to have a sense of timing. In fact, John, I think it's John 16:12, it says "Jesus had so much more to say more than they could now bear."


In other words, you have to make sure that there's a readiness. That someone else's heart is ready to hear what you have to say, and sometimes our timing is way off. We say the right thing at the wrong time, and it backfires. So part of this is the art form of Please, Sorry, and Thanks. And getting good at reading our spouse or at, really, discerning when they're ready to hear what we have to say. So that's not easy but in relationship, over time, you learn how to say things in a way that they can hear it. 


Otherwise, what you're really doing, you're just getting things off your chest. And all that's going to do is make you feel a little bit better, but it won't help the relationship in the end. 


Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So really just start with Please, Sorry, Thanks, and just do that for a while and see how your spouse responds. Because you want to get to that point where when you do say something to your spouse, it's important that they're willing to hear it. And, so, you got to lay some groundwork, right?


Mark: Yes, and you start simple. Those words become a lifestyle, and the next thing you know, there's a different atmosphere, there's a different tone, and a different posture, and that's how change starts to happen. And you begin to speak those things, and the power of life and death is in the tongue. And, so, our words have a way of making a huge difference. 


And, so, I often pray about what to say and how to say it. And that's true, not just as a communicator, on the stage, but as a communicator in a relationship. "How can I say this in a way that is going to be best received?" But I do think it comes back to those three pretty simple, yet, hard words to say, Please, Sorry, Thanks.


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, there's so much that goes into that, and praying and maybe counsel. Somebody listening, you may need to go to a Christian counselor and say, "Hey, I want to make some changes. I don't think my husband or wife is going to come to counseling." And let them help walk you through that, and certainly prayer, Scripture, all the things, all the tools that God gives us to make changes that will make a difference for us. 


Mark: Yes.


Dr. Kim: The book is amazing. One last question, what are you loving about your marriage, today? 


Mark: I love the fact that the longer we're married the more I appreciate my wife's integrity, and it's an accomplishment to be faithful to one another. And relationships change, our three kids are in their 20s, now, so it's a different dynamic, but I'm just so grateful. 


I often tell people that "Marry someone who loves to worship God." And that sounds like funny advice, but my wife, her heart for God challenges me, and blesses me, and it's gotten us through some tough times. And we've been through two bouts with cancer, on her part, breast cancer over the last five years, and she's doing great. She's on the other side of radiation and doing well.


Dr. Kim: That's awesome.


Mark: But you walk through tough times, Kim, and it gives relationship dimensionality. And a lot of laughs, over the years, but a lot of tears, too. But it gives that relationship texture, that it's a love that is far more tenuous, and has a tenacity to it, a little bit of grit to it. That we're going to keep on loving each other till death do us part. And, so, I just am grateful that we hope and pray that we get to grow old together, God willing. 


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, I love that, and you just grow together and you value each other, and you see each other grow. But I was just thinking, I mean, honestly, Nancy and I talked about this not too long ago. The times we've grown are the hard times, and we didn't like it when they came. We, certainly, didn't want them to come, but how God uses that to connect you and to grow you closer to each other and to Him. And sure there're the joyful times when kids are born, and grandkids, and stuff like that. 


But those hard times is what's made a difference, going through those together, in our marriage. So I totally agree with you. And it's just, something like quitting in your marriage, when you experience things with each other like that. There's a closeness and intimacy that comes with that, that's really, really special. 


Mark: Yes.


Dr. Kim: Well, the book is, Please Sorry Thanks: The Three Words That Change Everything, it is out. You can buy it anywhere books are sold. And if people want to connect with you in other ways, Mark, what's the best way for them to find you? 


Mark: Yes, markbatterson.com, or Mark Batterson on Twitter or Instagram, and we'd love to connect in those places. 


Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and if you're in D.C., National Community Church probably has a seat for you. Right?


Dr. Kim: We absolutely do, swing by. We're right on Capitol Hill, not far from the Capitol building itself. 


Dr. Kim: Wow, Mark, thank you. Thanks for your time. Thanks for being part of The Awesome Marriage Podcast, today, I appreciate it. 


Mark: Thanks, Kim, God bless.


[00:48:53] < Outro >


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