Break Away From Criticism & Grow in Appreciation | With Special Guests the Manns | Ep. 519
00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland.
If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage.
Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoy this content, share the podcast with a friend.
[00:00:37] < Music >
Dr. Kim: Welcome to the podcast. Today, John and Ana are here with us. We're so grateful to have you guys. Thank you for spending time with us and thank you for giving us some insight into marriage, and I can't wait to unpack this podcast with you guys.
John: Thank you, great to be here.
Dr. Kim: Well, let's just go back a little bit. You both wrote the Go-Giver, geared more toward corporate world. So what happened there? How did you see that impact people? What came out of that first book?
John: Yes, well, two things really the first thing was that when the book first rolled out of my desktop printer, this is now three years before we actually found a publisher. Before anybody else in the world read it, back in the 2005, it was,
When the book first came out on my desk, Ana was the first person to pick it up and read it. And she's the first person that picks up and reads the first draft of anything I write. She read it and said, "This book is going to be huge. This book is going to be great. This would be a great book about marriage."
Dr. Kim: Wow.
John: Because you're describing how we live. And the Go Giver was about adopting an attitude of putting the other person first, this is in a business context. So putting the other person first, putting their interests, and their needs, and their concerns first. Not only because it's an altruistic and it's a noble thing to do, it's the right thing to do, but it also serves you as well as them. It's a winning strategy, if you will, in business terms.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
John: Living with generosity is a smart thing to do as well as a good thing to do. And she said, "That's it, this is how we do our marriage." And she's right and it's taken us almost two decades to get to the point of, actually, writing that book about marriage, but that's where we are.
And you asked what we saw from that book. It was pitched, if you will, to the business community. To entrepreneurs, and small business people, and corporations, but we very quickly saw it leak out into the world.
Family counselors and churches were teaching it and all kinds of groups in other walks of life, other than business, were also using the book. Because the principles are really universal and that's what we tried to harness, and capture, and use, in that unique context of marriage in this book.
Dr. Kim: Wow, that's so good. Ana, I think, it's so cool that the first thing you thought of reading it was marriage. That just fit, I guess, just fit perfectly.
Ana: It did. I have spent a lot of years being a therapist and working with couples, and I think that any good therapist is always an educator first.
Because our goal is, actually, to bring awareness to the couple and to help them to open up to compassion for each other, and to slowing down any kind of harsh startups or arguments. And helping them to get aware of the ways that they behave with each other, and how they could shift those in a way that would be so powerful and beneficial. If you can be generous of spirit and always be putting the other person's interests first in a marriage, your marriage is going to be golden.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. John, did you have something to add?
John: Yes, it's just that everybody means to do that, I think. Everybody intends to bring that spirit to their marriage, but circumstances get in the way.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
John: And what happens is we have stresses that impinge on us from all sides. We're human beings, we're flawed. And, so, what happens is as the stresses of the world come at us, from all sides, we just forget.
We tend to take our spouse for granted. We tend to retreat into the corner of, "Okay, I'm surviving now, so my needs come first." And we just forget. We just lose the habit of acting with generosity. And, so, part of the purpose of the book is to bring back to people what they innately know, and show them some simple practices that can bring that spirit back alive again in their relationship.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. It's interesting, and some of the people I've talked to coming out of COVID and that time that we went through the last couple of years. As much as we all hated it, there were things that came out of it that were good.
I think that we learned and, certainly, it gave you the time to finally sit down and say, "Okay, we can focus on this book." And with Ana's input because I was right with you and I was seeing the same thing.
I was so concerned about people. And, honestly, I think we're going to continue to see the results of that over the next, I don't know how many years. Because people just survived for two years and had to go into survival mode, and you can't stay there very long.
Ana: Yes. And a lot of people lost jobs, I mean, just the financial stress, and it's not to get into the politics. But for real estate to go up so dramatically. For prices to expand the way that they have based on wars and other things that are going on, I mean, it's been crazy for people.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Ana: Yes, and those are the kinds of stresses that, really, when you're in a marriage it's all lovely roses and butterflies when you fall in love. But when you're in the throes of somebody's lost their job and you're really trying to make sure you can make your mortgage, everything changes.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. I'm in the counseling center a couple days a week and Nancy is busy. But during that time we got to have lunch together every day, and I just felt guilty about being outside it about that because the whole world is going...
But we used that time well and, I think, a lot of couples used it well. I know a lot of couples, I think, you either turn to each other and say, "Hey, we're going to make it through this." Or you turn away and we turn away when bad things begin to happen.
Ana: Yes, exactly, and same for us being together during COVID was a blessing in our marriage.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Ana: I mean, we did the same, we ate lunch together every day. I mean, it was really amazing.
Dr. Kim: It was fun.
Ana: Yes, and my practice was exploding because people were under stress.
Dr. Kim: Oh, absolutely.
Ana: But, at the same time, it gave us the opportunity, we had really discussed what the Five Secrets were a decade before. I mean, we go for long walks every afternoon, and we had talked over these secrets.
But it gave us the opportunity for John to, really, fully understand that I wanted very much for the explanation of the Five Secrets to hold the psychological underpinnings of why are they important? Why do you need these things? Why did you need them as a child and why do you still need them?
So that people could start to say, "Oh, yes, I think my wife knows I appreciate her but I never tell her."
Dr. Kim: Hmm.
Ana: And then, all of a sudden, it made them conscious in a different way. And that's been just a blessing both in my practice, and in just listening to people that have read the book, it's just been so sweet.
Dr. Kim: I love that. About, it's probably eight or 10 years ago, my pastor said, "If you think something good about your spouse, say it." And that just resonated with me because I thought I was doing a pretty good job.
And then as I got into the next few months, I realized I wasn't always saying it, and that has made a huge difference for us. That when that good thought comes in or I want to thank her for something, just to say it not take it for granted.
John: I learned this from Ana, I got to be honest with you, Dr. Kim. I think, that's a brilliant thing your pastor said, it's so simple. It's so simple, but my goodness, what impact. I learned this from Ana because I thought all kinds of great things about her and we shared a lot. We've always been very conversational.
Before we were a couple, before we were a romantic couple, we were friends. We were, really, great friends and business colleagues, for some time, before we realized that, "Oh my goodness, we're just insanely in love." So we always had had a lot of conversation going on.
But when she would say things to me like, "You are just such a kind person."
I was like, "Really?" A, it had never occurred to me that that might be true about me. I mean, I didn't think I was a terrible person, but I just never said it. Look, I never looked in the mirror and said, "John, you're kind."
Dr. Kim: No.
John: And the other thing was the way that she would just say these things. It would never have occurred to me to say all these wonderful things, but they're true.
I'm thinking them, why not say them?
It's just such a simple thing. Put it in words.
Dr. Kim: It is. And, I think for us as guys, even if our primary love language isn't words of affirmation we all want it and need it. And, to me, and I think what you're saying, the most important person that can say that is your spouse. It was Ana, and it's Nancy, and that's what makes me feel really good when she says those things.
John: Someone recently said to us, "It's just words. There are so many other things that are much more important than just putting things in words" And I don't agree with that entirely.
In one of the Go-Giver books there is a character that says, "Words are the footprints of God." And I think that words are not just casual, little contrivances we've manipulated into sound making some meaning. I think that they're profoundly meaningful.
I think words are the vehicle of great love because in order to appreciate somebody in a very specific way. In order to say to somebody, "You're such a kind person."
Or to say, "I love the way you talk to our children."
Or "I love the way you talk to our friends. You're so supportive of them when they have problems."
"I love the way you listen to them and don't judge them and offer them your perspective. But do it in a way that doesn't make them wrong. I just love the way you do that."
In order to say these things about my spouse, I have to have observed them. I have to notice them, and that tells her that I'm watching her. That I'm observing her because I care about her so much, that I'm studying her. I'm making her my life study, I am an Anaologist. I have a PhD in Ana, exactly. I think we all should have a PhD in our spouse because that's fascinating.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And I've said it many times, I don't think, in a lifetime, you'll learn everything that it is to learn about your spouse.
John: That's right.
Ana: Absolutely.
John: I so agree.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I love what you said about words and it just made me think God loves words. I mean, "The Word became flesh." I mean, words-
John: That's right, at the beginning.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, very good. So let's talk a little bit about the concepts of Go-Giver Marriage and how that developed, it'll give us a little of the rundown of that?
Ana: Well, during all those long walks that we were taking. We were talking about the psychological underpinnings of what makes people tick and what is it that we need?
What do we need in human development?
And I remember the night, it was a beautiful sunset, we're walking, and I said to John, "The things that we needed as children are what we need now."
And he was like, "Say more."
And I said, "Well, developmental theory in a nutshell says that 'What you needed as an infant and as a child you still need as an adult.'" And those are things like being appreciated. Being seen and understood, and listened to, being heard and being believed in, being attended to.
I mean, what baby can change their own diapers?
I mean, what child, at three, can make their own scrambled eggs?
I mean, maybe an extraordinary one. But the truth is you need caregivers and you need parents, who don't just attend to you, but they lovingly attend to you. I mean, I remember my mother making pancakes with smiles on the faces. And little things like that, that make you go, "Oh!" I mean, it makes you realize that you're loved.
I remember when significant things happened in the family. Like, our dog died and my mother just sat down at the kitchen counter with me, and pulled out all the pictures of the dog, and she just put her arm around me and we just went picture by picture and cried. And that was how she took care of me. That was how she attended to the fact that I was grief stricken.
John: I love that.
Dr. Kim: Isn't it interesting the things when we look back that we remember, and is those connection times or the smiley face pancakes. My kids talk about those sort of things. Things that I think, "Wow, we took you to Disney world." No, they don't talk about that. They enjoyed it, they had fun. But it was the Sunday nights at home. Sunday nights family and playing games, and watching TV, and having a favorite show, those sort of things that they remember that were special.
Ana: Yes, exactly, because you made them special. And that's the thing, we are relational beings. We actually need community. We need love, we need connection. And, so, those are the things that if you can give that to your spouse, by recognizing them, by letting them know the little ways that you adore them.
By letting them know the ways that, even simple things. When I talk to women about appreciation. I'll always ask the question, "When was the last time you thanked your husband for bringing home the bacon?"
"When did you thank him for taking out the trash?"
And it may seem like a small thing to say, "Thank you." But it's bigger, if you say, "You take out the trash every week and I never have to think about it. I just want you to know how much I appreciate that."
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. How long would that take? Three seconds to say that.
Ana: Yes, that's the thing about appreciation. You can appreciate somebody in just a couple minutes a day.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
John: And two things occur to me about that, too, if I could say. One is that, as Ana said, when you were an infant you couldn't change your own diaper. When you were three, you couldn't make your own scrambled eggs.
Well, now we're adults and we, actually, do change our own pants, and we, actually, can make ourselves scrambled eggs, most of us. So we tend to think we don't really need that kind of attention, but we still do.
We might not need it to change our socks or to make our breakfast, but we still need it. We still need the same loving. There's a child inside each one of us that still needs the loving care of somebody who cares about us and notices the things that we need.
The second thing I wanted to mention is, maybe as a grown man, I don't need smiley faces on my pancakes. It isn't the same things that attended to us as children translate to adults. We need different things, we're adult now.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
John: We put away childish things. We don't need the same kind of attention a child does, but we need the same spirit of attention. And that is every bit as important as it was when we were a helpless baby.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I just loved hearing Ana talk about, especially, when your dog died and how your mom was so present with you. How she walked through with you, and those are the things that we need as we face the things in life.
COVID, a death of a parent, which you mentioned that all of you guys have been through. Which I've been through and Nancy's been through. And, so, she instilled some things in you that were invaluable.
Ana: Yes.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome.
John: Yes.
[00:16:03] < Music >
Announcer: I bet when you were first dating you studied your husband intensely, and wanted to know everything about him and all that studying connected you two. Well, it can connect you again. Our 18-Day Husband Study Challenge is all about studying and cherishing your husband.
Dr. Kim says, one of the keys to an awesome marriage is being a student of your spouse. This Challenge gives you 18 ways to take that advice seriously. This Challenge is a 12-page PDF.
Here is how it works each day you pray this simple prayer. You read the Challenge and then you do the challenge. When you take on this Challenge you are not only growing your marriage, you're also supporting the mission of Awesome Marriage with a donation of any amount.
So this helpful resource is our gift to thank you for your donation to help more people around the world, experience God's awesome plan for their marriage. Grab the Challenge today at the link in our show notes.
[00:17:06] < Music >
Are you getting Dr. Kim's One Thing to Grow Your Marriage each day email, yet? If not, what are you waiting for? We hear from couples all the time about how this daily intentionality has moved mountains in their marriage.
Dr. Kim's One Thing Email is free. When you sign up, you'll get one practical thing you can do to invest in your marriage each day. These are simple, practical things you can do.
It's the little things like this that are done consistently, that make a big impact on your marriage. Curious what type of content you'll be getting when you sign up for the One Thing? Here are some areas that Dr. Kim likes to focus on in his daily One Thing to grow your marriage each day emails.
Ways to keep God the center of your marriage.
Tips on how to make most of your marriage even in busy seasons.
Ideas on how to invest in your marriage.
Tips on how to deal with conflict.
Intimacy help.
Ways to serve your spouse.
Reminders to be an intentional wife, an intentional husband.
Specific tips on how to improve your sex life.
Advice on how to grow spiritually together.
Ways to honor God with your marriage.
Information on how God wants us to treat our spouse.
Ways to be a great wife.
Ways to be a great husband.
Bible verses about marriage.
And so much more. But the best thing about the One Thing is that it's a short and practical, daily, real, practical reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Signing up for the One Thing is free. When you sign up, you'll get an email every morning, Monday through Friday. You can sign up today at awesomemarriage.com/onething.
[00:18:32] < Music >
Dr. Kim: Okay, so we're listening to this and this person is saying, "Maybe I'm already doing some of that, but he or she never gives back?"
Or, "If I try that, they're not going to give anything back?"
What happens if you do everything we're talking about today, and your spouse never gives back?
Ana: Well, first off that's tough and it happens. Sometimes the spouse is very shut down and may have had a brutal childhood, and doesn't express themselves well to begin with.
Dr. Kim: Right.
Ana: They may be an incest survivor. They may have been abused in different ways. They may have been hit, yelled at. They may have had an alcoholic parent who neglected terribly.
In some ways they don't attend to themselves. Forget about you. So, and I share that because the third secret among the five is called “Allow,” and people think - Allow - they say, "Whoa, that could be taken the wrong way." You could be allowing some really bad behavior. You could be allowing yourself to be a martyr or a doormat.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Ana: That is not our intention in any way. Allow is the secret that really is about being aware of the energy you bring to the marriage, because they may not be giving back. And it's important to remember that you can't make your marriage transactional.
It can't be, "I gave you this and therefore I want that." And I've seen that in a lot of marriages, especially, when it comes to the bedroom. The husband will be like, "Well, I brought flowers home, so hey."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Ana: That's not how marriage works. Marriage is not a transaction, it's not a deal making proposition. You have to give because you want to give. And what you will find, though, is if you are consistently giving without agenda, without the expectation of receiving.
Eventually, what happens is the tone of the marriage starts to shift and the other person starts to warm up. And even the most crusty spouses, who can be very critical, all of a sudden start being warm again. And what happens is that like a boomerang, goodness starts to come back at you. That, you can never give in a vacuum. When you give, there's always some sort of response or some sort of interaction that happens around that giving.
And, so, what we find is that even if one person is practicing the secrets, eventually, especially if you stay clear, if you're not sitting in that cross-armed pouting place of like, "Well, I appreciated her five times today and I attended to her twice yesterday. I did this, and this, and this, and still nothing."
You can't score in just a matter of days. You got to practice for two or three months, at a time, with no agenda. And then you'll start to see a warmth start to emerge in the marriage, and a response coming from the other side.
Because people that have been shut down for a long time, and maybe you haven't been the most appreciative or attending kind of spouse, and your spouse and you have become roommates. She's not going to wake up or he's not going to wake up, instantly, and say, "Hey, you're being really nice today, what can I do for you?" It really will be something that warms up in time.
John: We're talking about the appreciation. We're talking about the attention. We're talking about the giving. We're not really talking about the other side of it, which is what happens when you're not appreciating. And in the absence of consistent, regular, daily, verbal appreciation, what invariably slips into the vacuum is criticism. Criticizing is the opposite of appreciating. And the thing about criticism and about the kind of carping, and bickering, and jabs, we call it death by a thousand cuts.
The kinds of little negativities that creep into a relationship is that there is some truth to the old saying, "It takes two to tango." You start to create a dynamic. Where, "I'm getting a little barbing at you and maybe later you get a little barbing at me." It creates a little bit of tension.
What happens when you start to, and by the way, a lot of couples find an uncomfortable equilibrium. Where they have a sort of a disquieted normal. Where they both carp at each other and crab at each other, and they're not really happy, but it never blows up into a full scale battle. So they manage to get along. This, in our mind, is not a fulfilling marriage. This is a standoff.
So what happens when you start to do what Ana is saying? When you start to consistently, daily, I mean, consciously formulate these appreciations, you put them into words. When you start to attend in certain specific ways. We have people, actually, make a list, put it on your phone, put it on your daily reminder, make it just like a chore list. Just like an exercise routine, something that you are making sure to tick off the list.
"I have said three things today."
"I've shown her three ways, I appreciate her." Great.
When you start to do that, consistently, you automatically stop criticizing. Because the brain doesn't like to go in two directions at once, it really can't. When you start to make a daily appreciation habit, even if your spouse doesn't, you drain the gas out of the bickering. You drain the charge out of the back and forth.
They may still be carping at you. They may still be crusty. They may still be angry. They may still be surly, but after a time, and it's often a very short time, after a time the energy drains out of the unspoken argument. The energy drains away from the constant stress because you're not playing that game anymore. You're playing the appreciation game and they almost can't help get on board.
Ana: That's right.
John: The, the thing to remember is they'll never look like you. They'll never appreciate you exactly the way you appreciate them because we're different people.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
John: So don't look to them. If you just appreciated them three times, don't be looking for, "Where are the three that I get back from them." They may not do it the same way you do. It may be awkwarder for them. It may be more difficult for them, that's okay, we're different. But you start to find a new harmony, a new balance, a new equilibrium that isn't based on death by a thousand cuts. It's based on elevation by a thousand little praises.
Dr. Kim: Yeah, I love that, and I think you're exactly right. To get back to what you were talking about earlier and we call it being a student of your spouse. Now, Nancy has different ways that she needs that than I do. And, so, you want to learn that about each other.
And I love the thing where you said if there's strings attached to a gift or words it's not really a gift. It's just not because you're expecting something in return. And, so, I love that part of it, we've got to get past that.
Whatever that we have and, so, many people struggle with that. "Well, I did this, why didn't you this?"
Or "I'm waiting for you to do this." And that just doesn't build what we're talking about today and what we really want to build. And, so, I think, the other thing that is so important that you guys said, too, it takes time. It's not a 50 yard dash, it's a marathon.
John: That's right.
Dr. Kim: Be in for the long haul and it can be tough. I mean, I've worked with couples that the other person, it takes a long time for them to come around. And it may be because they don't believe you're really going to change that way.
Maybe they think, "Ah, there's an ulterior motive." Or, "He must have heard a sermon or whatever and is it going to last?" And, so don't give up and I think that's so important because, I get it.
It's easy to get discouraged when things aren't great, until you start getting some feedback, and you start making progress, and you start thinking, "Wow, this is really nice. I think this is what we talked about before we got married, that we wanted-"
Ana: And one of my clients actually calls the book, "His sermon on the bedside table."
Dr. Kim: I love it.
Ana: And he says that every single night he reads a small section of the back of the book about one particular secret. And he said then he puts a couple notes in his phone, and he alerts two men in his men's group to remind him.
Dr. Kim: Get some accountability built in.
Ana: So he has accountability built in. And then he goes after making certain that he does at least three or four of that particular secret, the very next day, and in the next day, for seven days in a row. Before he will even move on to another secret.
But he said, he'll keep reading the details of these different secrets, every single night before bed and/or first thing in the morning when he wakes up, and then he writes notes and gets accountability set up.
He said that, literally, it took six weeks in his marriage, which was almost at a standoff. But in six weeks he saw a huge change, and he said it really struck him. He was like, "Whoa!"
He said, "You don't know how much I've spent on therapy." And he said to me that he really didn't expect it. He was doing it because he felt like he loved the book and he loved the secrets were so real and so tangible.
But he said after six weeks everything started changing. They were going for long walks. They were holding hands again. There was a deeper level of communication and some, really, old wounds got talked about.
We talk about this a lot when we talk about the book that, "Everybody brings their childhood wounds to a marriage." But if you had a parent who is really critical, you'll either marry someone who's critical or you'll be critical.
Dr. Kim: It is, and it seems like it's so much easier to fall into that critical pattern and get stuck there. And it just continues to chip away the marriage over, and over.
Ana: Yep.
Dr. Kim: I loved what you were saying, too, a minute ago, John, about reminders or accountability that we can put into that. And I tell people all the time, use technology. Put it on your phone to get a reminder, have it buzz you. And if you don't have any ideas on how to be romantic google it.
I mean, we've got so many things in front of us that can help us right now. And even in that, using just a quick text during the day. When Nancy knows I'm in the counseling room all day, and I'm back-to-back and I'm busy. And she gets a text in the middle of the day saying, "I love you so much. I appreciate whatever it is about her." It makes her day. It took me, honestly, it's my walk to the bathroom and back when I text that, between clients, I got time to do that.
John: Yes, it takes no time at all. When we were first together, we used to leave each other voicemail messages because this was the pre-text days.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
John: It's so easy to do to vocalize these things, and you're so right, use technology.
Dr. Kim: And there's so much power as we talked about in those few little words. Wow-
John: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So the Go-Giver Marriage gives some great markers of personal health to encourage the partner in. What keeps people from encouraging their spouse to pursue things that promote this personal vitality, this personal growth?
Ana: I think that the last secret, the secret to Grow. It's the counterintuitive secret because the first four secrets are about giving to your spouse. But the fifth secret is about giving to yourself, and that includes personal growth.
And whether you spend time in a women's group or a men's group, where you're really talking about the deeper, darker sides of your life. Or whether you are in personal therapy with a counselor or with clergy. I think that when you really take the time to know yourself, you will awaken some of the pieces that you've disowned for years.
And I speak about this mostly because a lot of times people will say, "As a coach, you shouldn't focus on the past." But I find that it's education, it's not focus. I don't want to circle someone's trauma from when they were eight years old. But when somebody was systematically sexually abused from seven to nine, that has an impact on the marriage today.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Ana: And if she doesn't want to be in the bedroom or he doesn't want to be in the bedroom, it goes both ways. Because this experience had such an impact on them that they're a little bit shut down.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Ana: Waking up to that, and having somebody compassionately, really, help you understand that this was not your fault and you were helpless. And the adults that should have rescued you didn't.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Ana: So in essence, it's a huge abandonment story. And when you've been abandoned, you also go on to abandon others.
Dr. Kim: Or expect somebody is going to abandon you again and again.
Ana: Exactly, so you'll marry somebody who doesn't give you any attention or any quality time because that's what you are used to.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I want to pick up back, I think, what you said is so true. It is important to go back, as a counselor, into someone's past to understand how that's affecting them today, and that's exactly what Jesus did with the woman at the well.
Ana: Yes.
Dr. Kim: He told her, her past. But then He said, "You're forgiven, go and sin no more." Go, and we've learned from that. We know the pattern you're in but you can change and move forward. And knowing our past, I think, helps us change our future.
John: Yes.
Ana: And when we develop compassion for ourselves, we're able to extend it to our spouse.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Ana: And a lot of times children hold themselves responsible for the bad things that happen to them. And therefore they then hold other people responsible in a very critical way. Because they haven't learned the art of self-compassion. They don't have compassion for others, they can't extend it to another.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. You never know how a young child is going to interpret something at a young age. Because a lot of times they don't tell you how they looked at it or, "Mom and dad divorced. I got them in a fight last night, they were fighting over my bedtime and the next day dad left."
And, so, what did that look like to the kid? What did they think at that time? And then how does that follow through to him or her all the way through? So that's so good because, I think, sometimes we discount that or don't realize, "Oh, we were just a kid." Well, a lot of life information is coming to us at that time.
Ana: And as a therapist and a coach, if I were to just hammer you, like, "You need to do this secret and I want to hear back from you next week, about the 10 times per day you did it."
That doesn't account for the deeper understanding of who is this person, and how do they operate, and what is holding them back from having a blissful and happy marriage to begin with?
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Ana: There's definitely keys to the kingdom of each person.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
John: We have sort of an operating system, we each individually work with. Which consists of you could almost call them rules of behavior or norms of behavior, patterns of behavior. That for most of us, we never examine them, or question them, or even were aware of them, it's just what we learned.
Whether it was from our parents, our siblings, our classmates, our school, social vehicles that affected us, that we learned from television, what have you. And, so, we arrive at adulthood, frequently, with a relatively unexamined life.
And, I think, a lot of what this growth, this personal growth Ana is talking about, is not only exploring our skills and talents and abilities and interests in the world. Which is so important well into adulthood and well into your later decades to be developing yourself as a many-faceted creative being that is so important. But also to be examining what is my operating system?
What are my assumptions?
How do I react?
How do I behave?
Not to judge it, but just to become aware of it because we can adopt new patterns if we want to. We can really change behaviors. We don't need to have the inequities of our fathers passed down onto seven more generations.
We always have the opportunity to say, "Okay, this is where I've come from. This is how I've gotten to here. Now, here's how I'd like to be from now on." But it's difficult to do that unless we're aware of ourselves.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Yes, and, I think, as a marriage puts these principles in place, their kids are going to be affected by it. Their kids are going to be stronger and healthier. And one thing I see is kids, when I work with a couple in marriage, and they've had almost two divorced marriages and then all of a sudden they've got a marriage that thrives.
The kids are resilient and kids bounce back, and they are so happy, and excited, and it changes them too. And, so, I think the parents that are listening to know, not only are you going to have a better marriage, but your kids are going to be better off too.
Ana: Oh, that's so true.
John: We've seen so many marriages that stayed together for the sake of the children. But what so frequently happens is that, what they're really doing is just staying semi-glued for the sake of the children. But the strife is there, the tension is there, the pain is there, and the kids always know it. They know everything. They're as sensitive as could be, they're sponges. So we're kidding ourselves. What we really want to, if we want to do it for the sake of the kids, what we need to do is heal it. Heal it.
Ana: That was just a huge piece of wisdom because your marriage is a legacy. And the way that I frame it for clients or for people I work with, often, is this I said, "Someday, when your kids go off to college, they're going to be sitting in a bar with a beer in their hand, and they are going to tell the story of your marriage to their friends."
Now, do you want them to say, "My poor mom, my dad criticized her and beat her up every day verbally and she was just a mouse. She's really a sweet person, but dad was so overbearing."
Or do you want them to say, my dad, conversely, it could go the other way. "My dad was just handcuffed by my mother the whole marriage, and I don't want to be like my mom." Your kids are learning about relationship and learning about marriage from watching your marriage. So what do you want them to learn?
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. We're their textbook.
Ana: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Their first textbook. Let's talk, a minute, about just these Go-Giver principles. How have you seen these just impact the marriages that have been affected by it?
Ana: Well, in the book we use a tree as the image of the marriage. We say that you're either feeding the marriage, the us, there's you and there is me, and then there is this third entity in the room, which is the marriage itself. So you're either feeding - The us or you're starving - The us.
So you're either watering the tree or you're completely withdrawing fertilizer and water completely, and the tree is withering. So you really have a choice every day. And what we've found is that the couples that, actually, practice these secrets not only change their marriage for the better, but they become more relational.
The marriage becomes more intimate. Things that were never spoken about wake up and are spoken about compassionately, and with respect. All of a sudden there's a different sense of loving and knowing the other person, even for their hard times.
I saw one couple that, and I see them separately, that one person in the marriage was very much the extrovert, very strong, very outgoing to the point of being termed by the other spouse as overbearing and not attending. Because they took up so much space in the room, so to speak. And the truth is that's a person who is wounded. The person taking up space in the room, usually never had any space when they were younger.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Ana: And when that woke up, it was like a flood of compassion happened in the marriage. When suddenly they realized that it wasn't like this person wanted to take up space in the room or wanted to be the one that was always talking.
But rather that they just never saw that side of them. They didn't understand that there was a soft underbelly, that there was a wound underneath all of this. And it was just heartwarming to see what happened in that marriage because it shifted everything.
John: I'll just add to this, and you asked some examples of what has happened in applying these principles. One thing, going back to the tree, Ana mentioned, people often come to see a marriage as a compromise.
Where, "Because I'm living with this other person I have to give in on so many things. I can't do everything I want to do, so it limits my life and makes it smaller."
We believe the opposite is true. We believe the opposite can be true. That the marriage, rather than being a compromise, a chamber that constricts you, can become a launching to release a bigger you, to grow you.
So when we both feed that tree, the marriage becomes fruitful. It bears more fruit, it produces more flowers. One thing that happened for Ana and myself is as a direct result of our relationship, we have both gone in professionally, and to do things that I know we never would've done on our own.
I've done things that I absolutely know for a fact, if Ana weren't in my life, I would never have had the confidence to do them and the same for her, and we see that in other couples.
That as they grow stronger as a couple, as they feed that tree, as they nourish the us-ness of them, they both, as individuals, grow to larger versions of themselves. And that, to me, says it's working. That, to me, is what it should be, we should be growing as people.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. As a couple and it's so much fun. And if you go to out to dinner or whatever, and that's maybe the curse, Ana, of being a counselor, a therapist, is because you notice people. Nancy says, "Keep your eyes on me."
But you can just tell the couples that are doing this, and the ones that aren't. And the ones that are I just want to go over and hug them. I think you are getting it and you're getting what God wants you to have in your marriage. So however you got here, keep it up.
Ana: Also, I had a couple that they came from an ethnic background, and it was an ethnic background where the men were dominant. I won't say which ethnicity, but the men were very dominant.
John: How unusual, yes.
Ana: The men had 100% control over the women and the women tended to be meek, and they had to be very subservient. And this husband had an awakening that just was stunning to watch. He was very critical of his wife and they had been married 29 years.
And he, he actually said to me, "I learned at my father's knee that he told my mother regularly what to do and how high to jump and he was very critical of her, and I just assumed, this is what the man of the house does. And I got married at..." He got married at 19. And he said, "I've been dominating my wife ever since with really critical words."
He said, "I have been so taken aback by the way that appreciation has changed it. And the way that attending to her, and taking care of her, giving her attention and time and kind words."
He said, "She's waiting on me hand and foot, and she has so much gratitude and so much love."
He said, "It's like I opened up a well of love."
He said, "I never knew it was there because I spent so much time criticizing her."
Dr. Kim: That's so good.
Ana: Oh, it was incredible, he cried when he told me.
Dr. Kim: I'm glad you brought that up because I was thinking what are barriers that people have to overcome, and, certainly, there can be some cultural things they have to overcome. Is there anything else, I don't want to put you on the spot. Anything else that comes to your mind that there are just barriers because of who we are and the culture we grew up and those kind of things?
Ana: Well, I'll tell you, I have dealt with a lot of people, men and women that are incest survivors via an uncle, or a grandfather, or the boy scout camp leader. I mean, just the stories just shock you and the impact that that has on sexuality, and on the willingness to sort of leave yourself vulnerable. I have seen it on both sides of the fence.
It's funny because you always think of it happening to women, but I've had multiple men in my practice that it happened to. And those men are highly successful. They are killing it at work, but they are hurting on a whole other level.
That they don't want to talk about, don't want to go near, and they're very guarded. And when all of that just opens up through the secrets, and all of a sudden they're dealing in a different way and their wife has a different compassion for them, I mean, a full compassion that says, "It's okay, I'm here, and I will be your guardian." If you will.
"I will be the person who creates a safe space or a safe haven for you."
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Ana: The trust is just huge and it takes the marriage to another level.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
John: Yes. Barriers, I think a lot of us, and I'm tempted to say it particularly in men, but maybe I'll withdraw that and say just a lot of us human beings never really learned how to be intimate. Intimate in a way that isn't creepy, and isn't threatening, and isn't sexual, and isn't inappropriate.
But just intimate in a way that's genuine and authentic. Even intimate in other relationships just being an authentic friend or an authentic colleague, or what have you. But particularly with our spouse, genuine intimacy includes being vulnerable and being attentive and receptive at the same time.
There is an actual exchange of thoughts, and feelings, and experiences. A lot of us simply didn't learn how to do that. And, I guess, I will say, particularly men, we have this kind of stoic, "Get it done, don't let the world bother you."
And, so, and there's good in that, in that we persevere and get things done, and stay strong. But the harm in that is that we put up this shield and you asked what's a barrier? Well, that's a barrier, a shield, that prevents us from having shared intimacy in the most benign, innocuous ways.
Ana: And believe it or not, the statistics on depression are that there are more men who are depressed than women. Nobody believes that when I say it, but it is actually true, there's a lot of depression among men.
Dr. Kim: I think we have learned how to cover it up or just stuff it down.
John: Yes.
Dr. Kim: But it is my experience in prior years, too, Ana, is eventually you can't keep doing that, eventually it's going to explode. But I think you're exactly right. I think it's harder for it, and I think because we won't deal with things or won't be intimate and share things, sure, you're going to be depressed.
Ana: Yep.
Dr. Kim: It's good, such good stuff. Well, one last question for both of you, what are you loving the most about your marriage today?
John: Oh.
Ana: Oh.
John: Who is first?
Ana: I adore my husband.
Dr. Kim: I can tell. I think he likes you too, Ana.
Ana: Yes, he does. And I tell you, John is very attentive and it doesn't matter what's going on, he is always doing something to make my life easier. And a good example is first thing in the morning, I like to wake up slowly. So he gets up at 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning and prays, and reads, and then gets right on his work.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Ana: And I tend to get up around 6:30 or 7:00, and I'm a later bloomer. But he will arrive at seven o'clock in the morning with a cup of tea on the bedside table every morning. And he'll bring my laptop to me so that I can actually just browse through email and drink that cup of tea, and just chill for the first 30 minutes of my day, and I love that so much. I feel so attended to and so taken care of.
Dr. Kim: What a perfect example of being a student of your spouse. Way to go, John, you get five stars for tea and the laptop - that's great. Guys that are listening, it's not that hard, probably, it didn't take John that much time. You make some tea and you grab a laptop, and you take it in, and smile, and kiss her, and she lit up the whole time she was telling that story.
Ana: Oh, it's like that first sip of that tea in the morning is like, "Oh." Because I didn't even have to get up to get it, so sweet.
Dr. Kim: I know. Okay, John, it's your turn.
John: What I want to mention is what I'm loving right now about Ana, is it watching her. This is secret number five, watching her grow, watching her express herself, watching her flourish, flower. This book has been, aside from the fact that we love giving it to the world, it's a gift to each other too.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
John: Because, as she said, I've written 30 books, and over the next year more than 30 now, and it's what I do. But I've never written a book with her before. We've never written a book together before. She's been part of every book I've done in a supportive way.
But now she's an author and this book is more hers than mine. And watching her talk with people, watching her help people. Watching her share what she has, share the gifts that she has with the world, through the vehicle of this book that we put together, it's just so fantastic. I mean, I have friends who, when their wife starts to flourish in their profession, they start to feel threatened.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
John: And I say, "Are you crazy, man? You should be shouting from the rooftops, this is a gift to your life." Because what could be better than your wife shining in all her glory?
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
John: Developing her full gifts. Being a gift to the world, that makes the house just a glow with warmth and excitement. So right now I'm just basking in the glow of of Ana in the career that surrounds this little book of ours.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. You guys are a great couple. I love what you're doing. The book is the Go-Giver Marriage, they can find it everywhere, and pick it up, read it and then spend some time with it. Spend some time living out the things that you've learned from it. I'd love to see people do that. John and Ana, it has been a joy to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much. Best of luck you guys in the future.
Ana: Thank you. And to your guests, please write to us because we love hearing from people and we're out there teaching all the time. We're happy to come and do workshops for you, in any location or any time zone.
Dr. Kim: So where's the best place for them to connect with you?
Ana: gogivermarriage.com.
Dr. Kim: It’s pretty simple, people.
Ana: The contact on our website goes only to us.
John: You can say anything, yes it does.
Ana: Yep.
Dr. Kim: Okay, thank you guys, again, appreciate it very much.
John: Thank you so much.
Ana: Take care and thank you.
Dr. Kim: Uh-huh.
[00:51:24] < Music >
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few with music by Noah Copeland.
If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.
[00:51:57] < Outro >