How To Love Your Adult Child Who Breaks Your Heart with Dr. David E Clarke
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations, and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I'm your Podcast Producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show, we'll be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Well, welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. I'm so excited to welcome back Dr. David Clarke. He is a good friend. He is, I think, the third or fourth time on the podcast. He's a regular and I couldn't have anybody I'd regularly have. We're going to talk about his new book, which is amazing. It's called Adult Children Who Break Your Heart. Welcome, David.
Dr. Clarke: Thanks, Kim, Great, it's my pleasure to be here.
Dr. Kim: All right, so good to see you again, and to see the work you're doing and your materials are helping so many people. I use them, all the time, with people now. Because you're honest, you're open, you're to the point, and you don't dance around about things. And when we're talking about narcissism and some of the things that happen in marriage, you can't. You just can't.
Dr. Clarke: No, there's no dancing around, no frills. I'm a no-frills guy.
Dr. Kim: The no-frills guy. Well, we're going to talk about prodigals today. So let's start out with what are some common types of prodigal situations that you see?
Dr. Clarke: Here's the list, I cover 10 in the book. But the first one is – my child has rejected me, cut me off. And, very often, I don't even know why. That's part of the power of the prodigal. "I'm not even going to tell you why I will have nothing to do with you." Well, man alive.
Then there's the – my child won't launch. Living at home, part-time job, can't hold a job, not going anywhere. Living off the fat of the land. Just not launching, big problem. I know somebody, it's a friend of mine, his daughter is in her 40s, still at home.
Dr. Kim: Wow.
Dr. Clarke: I mean, really? The plan is to outlive her parents and just stay in the home, I mean, come on. And this is a bright girl, not married, of course.
Dr. Kim: It's not good for the kids, either, I mean, you got to launch some time.
Dr. Clarke: Yes, that's the whole idea of. Parenting, we're kicking you out. You're moving out into the world.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: Then there's – my child is an addict; I see a lot of that. Alcohol, drugs, could be sex, there's gambling, and they're really addicted to something, and, boy, it's just destroying them. And what do you do about that? That's tough.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: And then, of course, this is a big one for those of us that love Jesus. My child has no interest in God. Raised him in a Christian home, and there's one child that simply has no use for God. Calls himself an atheist, or an agnostic, or doesn't go to church, and doesn't believe there's a God. Maybe they went to a liberal university, these universities are killing us. I want my money back. I hear from so many parents, yes, there is a God.
Dr. Kim: And that's a heartbreaker when the parent does all. We, kind of, sometimes, I think, train up the child in the way he will go and when he's older, he'll not depart from it. I paraphrased that a little bit. We sometimes do that as a promise when it's really a principle.
Dr. Clarke: It is, with the prodigal it's a promise.
Dr. Kim: And we all want to hold on to it as a promise.
Dr. Clarke: We've all seen these, I mean, truly, Godly parents, solid people, they've raised a family. A number of the kids are fine and there's one. Same principles, same approach, and they're off the deep end and they have no use for God. But that's the worst possible thing for a parent, maybe, on the whole list.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: Whoa, without God, you are lost and you can't fix anything. It's just awful. So I got a whole plan for that, too. There's a plan for each of these scenarios, as you know. Then, of course, and this is exploding with culture, homosexual. My child is homosexual, bisexual, or transgender. They're actually none of those things, but they think they are and they're moving in. Oh, my goodness, again, heartbreaking, this is not what you want for your child.
Dr. Kim: No.
Dr. Clarke: But the entire world now, and society, and the media is applauding and going, "Yes, that's who you are." Oh, my God, God is saying, "I didn't make you that way, and let's see if we can find a way out." So all this is going-
Dr. Kim: It's a hard thing for parents.
Dr. Clarke: And then, of course, there's – living with or married to a dirt ball. There's a lot of that going on. "My daughter chose a dirt ball and I have to put up with him." Well, no you don't. And the daughter is affected by him, and the kids, and those dirt balls love to play games. That's a category that we have to deal with because you can't choose who your kids marry.
Dr. Kim: No.
Dr. Clarke: Very often, I talk to these parents who they know there's a dirt ball and the daughter is dating him, and they can't stop it's like a freight train, they can't stop it. Whoa!
Dr. Kim: Yes, and the more you do, it seems, the more it draws them to them.
Dr. Clarke: Exactly.
Dr. Kim: It's a tough situation. I see a lot of parents that see that happen to their daughter.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, it's awful. You can see it coming and you can't convince them. Then, of course, there's, and this is an issue, too, – living with a decent member of the opposite sex. Good person, but it's still sin, it's still destroying them, and their relationship. And you won't hear a word about this in 95% of the churches, now. Can't do it, because there are so many of them we can't offend them from the pulpit. Yes, you can. It has to be addressed because it's harming them. If there's an offense, there's an offense.
I know churches, the pastors have gone so far as to not never mention it. And "We're going to take the long-term approach, and let them serve, and let them lead." Well, you can't do that. You shouldn't do that. I am a voice crying in the wilderness. And you'll love on them, and they can come to church, and you want them there, eventually, let's help them here." I've seen these couples, well, I see them, you love each other. You have a child or two, get married, but they don't want to do it.
Dr. Kim: Well, and they see it so much in culture with movie stars, athlete, people that just don't. And, so, the models of get married, then have your kids, and then build a strong family, they don't see that that much, especially, in people their age.
And I think it was Barna, somebody came up last year, with an independent, non-Christian, study showing the effects of living together over a period of time, and that the divorce rate is higher when they get. The depression is higher, just all these things. So it's not just us, as Christians, saying, "Hey, this isn't good for you." It's really not good for you.
Dr. Clarke: No, but nobody cares about that because the thinking is, and satan's done a wonderful job. "Well, you have to test-drive the car before." It makes logical sense, but it's not God's plan. There is no commitment, zero. No trust. Well, so that's something else that you have to deal with and with many of them, I consider that a prodigal situation. Even though they have jobs, and they love each other, and all this. You know what, no, you're living in sin. You never hear that phrase anymore.
Dr. Kim: No.
Dr. Clarke: It's offensive. Well, too bad, it's not, right.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it's not God's plan.
Dr. Clarke: God doesn't give us that option.
Dr. Kim: No, and, of course, it's better, it's not like He's mean.
Dr. Clarke: No, He wants the best for us.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: Well, back in our day, we wouldn't have considered not getting married in a church or not getting married. Sandy would have slapped my face and gone, "Are you kidding? Get out of here, bozo, you either marry me or we're done." Of course, I wanted to marry her.
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, if Nancy and I tried to live together, well, I don't know who'd have shot me first, her dad or my dad. And then my mom would have dragged me out by my whatever.
Dr. Clarke: And you would have deserved it, of course. But now we just have to understand that this is the way it is. Well, you know what, no.
Dr. Kim: It doesn't have to be that way.
Dr. Clarke: Yes, and as the Barna Study showed, it's actually harming them. And when they do get married, if they live together, their rates of divorce are higher than if they hadn't. Well, just don't do that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, you're just playing house.
Dr. Clarke: Man, I've got a few more here. Kids poisoned by your ex. This, of course, is classic with the narcissist. They've done it your whole life, now, when you divorce them, they're still doing it. How do you handle that situation?
Or, "I've been divorced, I'm dating, and I've married some new person, in the Lord, and they're a wonderful person. And my kids hate my new spouse." I see a lot of that. You know what, you're going to have to deal with that in a very loving but firm way. And then this follows, of course, being cut off from the grandkids, oh, that's brutal.
I think that moves into the area of evil. We have five grandkids and they're just precious to us. Oh, my goodness, seeing them just lights our whole life up. To to be told we can't see them, can't talk to them. Oh, that's severe punishment and that's sinful. You better have a good reason for that, and they don't.
Dr. Kim: No, I know and I've seen, and it is heartbreaking when you work with someone, especially, someone that had been close to them, then they marry. Maybe there's divorce, they marry someone, and this guy won't let them see them.
Dr. Clarke: And your kid can't see they married someone. What kind of a person would turn you against your parents, and not allow them to see your kids?
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: A nasty person. So there's ways to handle this, and I think my plan has a chance to work. It's biblical, it's tough, but it's important for parents to know, "Look, I've done all I can do, biblically here." And then see what God does and it's important to know you've done your best.
Dr. Kim: A lot of prayer.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, yes, you never stop.
Dr. Kim: Awesome. Obviously, I think, probably 90% of people that are listening and watching us on this, may have identified with one of those. So what do you see parents do, that they tend to get wrong when they're dealing with this prodigal. Say we touched a nerve here. What do you see people do that doesn't work?
Dr. Clarke: Well, here are some of the main mistakes, Kim. You've seen this, of course, many times. It's not confronting the sinning child, but enabling the child. Hoping that "If I just love and unconditional, and accept whatever they're doing, that somehow they're going to change that." No, that's called enabling, and you're actually encouraging the sinful behavior.
Now, it's tough because I warn them in the book. When you confront, even if it's loving and not nasty, they're going to, probably, cut you off. You have to be ready for that. But the analogy is if they're driving in their car, over a cliff, and are you going to wave as they go over? That's enabling.
"Hey, keep going, everything is fine. There is a cliff there, but, hey, gosh, maybe they'll see it." They don't see it. Or do you get into the road and say, "There's a cliff there, I'm just telling you." So that's one of the main things I see, just enabling. One parent, usually, is the enabler.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think, we would all think we could love somebody enough that that would change things. But, unfortunately, it doesn't work.
Dr. Clarke: Uh-huh, there's love, but this is a tough love, I'm talking about.
Dr. Kim: This is tough love, yes.
Dr. Clarke: So that's one. Another one is just endless arguing, and reasoning, and trying to talk them out of their sin. This literally never works, and the prodigals I know actually enjoy that back and forth. They know they've got you right where they want you, and they're into making you pay, and making you feel guilty. This is perfect for their purposes.
I cannot convince you that there was a God. I raised you to believe in God, through Jesus. I can't talk you out of what now... I'm not even going to attempt to do that. Because they'll just thwart every single argument you have for whatever these scenarios are. They'll just shove it right back in your face, and they'll do that for years.
Done, don't do that. You'll state the truth and then you'll rest on the truth, and then you'll back off. Don't have those discussions.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: The prodigal will try to drag you in. "I'm not having that discussion again, talk to the hand." That's the only way to do it.
Dr. Kim: That's good. One of the things I love about your books, and we're going to talk about the Bible in a minute, is you use Scripture so much, all the way through it. That helps people to see, "Oh, yes, there's biblical foundation to this. There's God's plan to all this stuff that we're talking about."
Dr. Clarke: And we would agree on this, Kim, obviously, among many things, the Bible, this is our standard. I wouldn't have recommend anything I didn't think was solidly biblical. And therefore [Inaudible 00:12:44] was God covers this in the Bible. How to handle the sinner? There's actually stories of prodigals and what happened. God's laying it out and if we will listen to His principles, they're the best ones.
Dr. Kim: Anything else that you see that I didn't give you a chance to do about, that parents tend to do wrong.
Dr. Clarke: The finances, and this goes with enabling, Kim. The giving of money, and the financial support for someone who's living a lifestyle of sin. I will never forget my dad, Bill Clarke, who's in heaven now with my mom.
He said, right before college, "Dave, if you decide to live for the Lord and walk with Him, we'll be very generous. Pay for your college, probably, get you a car, and throughout your life we will do what we can for you, but you'll have to get a job. When he said that he was deadly serious. If, however, mom and I have decided, if in fact, you are not going to live for the Lord and you're going to live your own way. We will not pay for college, you'll be yanked out, and you won't get a dime from us for anything. And it was like, "Whoa."
But see that, and it was said in a very loving way. And this is God, it's like God talking, "Here are your choices; Blessing or consequences, cursing." And I wanted to live for the Lord, anyway, but you know what, that was pretty sobering, and that's the way you have to handle a prodigal. "I'm not going to pay one dime to support your sin. I'm not doing that."
Dr. Kim: And that's really love, it's really love. It is saying, "I can't love you and let you do these things. And, so, I'm going to love you, but I can't do that. I can't condone that." And I think it's so easy, some of the things you said, well, we don't want to lose a relationship, or we don't want to not see our grandkids. And, so, sometimes, we go along with things, when we need to take a stand.
Dr. Clarke: I agree. Now, no matter what you say or do, if the money is flowing, that's a pretty clear message, you're okay with it.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, even though you don't say it.
Dr. Clarke: No, that's where, I think, you cut off the gravy train, absolutely. My kids, they all got through college, which we paid for. William, finally, did us a favor and didn't go to a private Christian school, that'd have killed us, but anyway we'd have no problem with that.But if they wanted to make one of these choices, Sandy and I would have said, "It's off, the faucet is off. You can pay for your own college." We didn't have to do it but we would have done it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I agree. Like you said, you're just continuing to let them go down this road that you know is going to end in destruction, and you don't want to condone it.
Dr. Clarke: You know this Kim, we'd be wealthy people, I don't think of the numbers because it's depressing. But if I hadn't had to pay for college, for four kids, I'd be sitting in a mansion on the ocean. Nonetheless, they're worth it and they're great kids.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, it is. It's a sacrifice. It is a sacrifice for parents and more and more, especially, if they go to private colleges.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, man, the cost, and that's one thing we need to address, that's another topic. But talk about a money-making operation, it's ridiculous, come on!
Dr. Kim: I know. So let's go back to the Bible. What does the Bible say about how to deal with these kids? My kid, I identify, I got a kid in that situation. I want to do what God wants me to do. What's the Bible tell them to do?
Dr. Clarke: Boy, there's all kinds of specific Scriptures that teach how to deal with someone who's in serious sin. And all these scenarios are serious sin that are destroying the sinner, and affecting, of course, the whole family. So that's where the loving, firm, confrontation comes in, the consequences.
The prodigal is given an opportunity to change, clear choices. And if you choose, free country, hey, you know what, free will. "You want to do this? We'll still love you, but, again, there won't be money, there won't be support, there'll be limitations on this operation. And that's from God, so we have clear teaching of Scripture. And, then, we also have examples, in the Bible. Adam and Eve were the first prodigals, God's kids.
I mean, they messed up big, they had everything. Here's a parent that had given them everything, life was perfect, and they still chose to sin. Of course, we all would have and, of course, there were consequences.
But Adam and Eve because there was repentance, they were out of the garden, that was the consequence that never stopped. But they were able to get back into a relationship with God, because they confessed and repented.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I never thought of them as prodigals before. That's very interesting because they really were.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, yes, and you're thinking, "Of course, we're all that way." God is so gracious to us all, and we end up doing, "I'm going to do this anyway."
God says, "Really?" Okay, there's going to be a consequence." Then, of course, we have the story of the prodigal son. Again, of course, that's a metaphor for God, and the son was going to do his thing, clearly, going to live a sinful lifestyle. Now, in this case, my dad wouldn't have done this, but he gave him the inheritance and he went off. But he didn't chase him, he didn't pursue him, he didn't beg him, he didn't try to reason with him. "Relationship over, go and do your thing. Clearly done.
Now, when the prodigal came back and was clearly repentance. Boom, just like that, relationship restored and we're back on track. But it has to be true repentance, not just, "Well, I think, I'm repentant now." It was clear that guy got it. That boy got it, he was broken. So that's a great example of how you handle a prodigal.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: "Do your thing; I'm not going to try to stop you." Because that's what the prodigal wants. He wants the back and forth, the conflict, because he's trying to pay you back for something. "No, do whatever you want." That's what God says, "However, there will be consequences.”
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Dr. Clarke: And the moment you repent, when you get that call. Because you've held the line, or they come to your house, and they're broken truly, and you make sure they're broken. Boom, we're right back together, and let's get you fixed and let's get you into recovery and we'll do anything for that child.
Dr. Kim: But you don't have to give them the inheritance, right?
Dr. Clarke: No, I'm changing that point, exactly. Of course, I told our kids, "Our inheritance was spent on your college, sorry, it's gone."
Dr. Kim: I know, now you've got a chance to make your own inheritance, right?
Dr. Clarke: That's right. "Hey, we wish you well." There'll be nothing left. My dear mother used to always say, "David, I'm spending all of it, every last penny." And, boy, she just about did.
Dr. Kim: I love that. I have a good friend and he did pass away, but he said, "I want to spend my last dollar the day I die. I want to time it just perfectly like that."
Dr. Clarke: That's good.
Dr. Kim: I agree. So what's your advice for a parent who thinks the situation might be their fault and feel guilty? Because I see that a lot. They blame themselves, "Oh, my gosh, what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong when they were growing up?" All this stuff and, so, you blame yourself for it instead of confronting the child.
Dr. Clarke: I think it's a universal parental thing. One of our precious daughters had a very hard time in middle school. Now, she got through, but it was a difficult time. And the first thing we did was, "What did we do? What happened?" Well, it wasn't our fault, it was just things happening.
So you have to deal with that guilt because the prodigal, your basic prodigal, will smell that guilt, and they'll feed on that guilt, and they'll shove it right down your throat, and it becomes part of the dynamic. You have to take that off the table. Now, God has forgiven you for any mistakes you made, as a parent, and in the book there's a few steps to take, just to clear that off the table, because now you're an adult.
18 and up, "Whatever I messed up on, and of course I did, no parent is perfect, I'm asking for your forgiveness. I'm mentioning things that I did, and once we go through those few steps, I'm done. You're an adult now, every choice you make you cannot, now, tie back to what I did wrong. Now, if you want to work on your issues with me in counseling, I'm not going to do it with you, probably. But I might even help pay for the counseling if it's, genuinely, to work through issues and move forward, but that's on you now."
So that's a powerful tool to take away from the prodigal, blaming mom and dad for whatever they're struggling with. You are an adult, grow up. "I'm going to admit it and I'm going to ask for forgiveness, and then I'm done. We're not having those discussions anymore."
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, and not get hooked in again. I'm sure just because of that discussion, that child is not going to go, "Okay". A lot of them are going to come back, and they're going to try to push the buttons again.
Dr. Clarke: They're going to try, and you're going to say the same thing.
Dr. Kim: And that's the hard part, you got to stay strong.
Dr. Clarke: You do, and then when they know you're not going to play that game anymore, that's a new dynamic and a healthy one. And, literally, you'll say, "Let me interrupt you, I'm not having that discussion. As we discussed, that's over with. You can talk to the wall and you can talk to your dirtball partner. You can talk to the guy on the street about that. I'm not doing that anymore because I'm done with it."
They'll try to rope you back in not playing their game. So we handle that with the steps. And, so, that goal, they'll still fight it, but you're not going there because it doesn't do them any good, and you want to say "When will this stop; When you're 35? When you're 40? When you're 60? Hey, really? This is your life, do your work and fix it."
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, it's so good. I hope that encourages parents that are on the edge there to take that step, to move toward just a little bit. So what about a parent that's concerned for the safety of their adult child? Do they intervene? What do they do in that situation?
Dr. Clarke: Yes, this is a tough one. I would not, necessarily, rescue the child every single time. You're prudent, you do what's reasonable. But there are children who, ultimately, and we know this as parents, you cannot save a child, tragically, from killing himself. Either immediately with some lethal form, or through drugs, or through alcohol, or any one of these things. They're destroying themselves, you can't ultimately stop that. And, so, there's a release involved here.
Now, your child calls you at midnight and, "I've ingested 4 pills." And they're not kidding.
And "I think I'm going to die."
You won't say, "No, you had your chance." And hang up, of course, not.
You'd call the police. You would do what you can to save them, but it's not an enabling thing. And you call the police, have their stomach pump, whatever, if it's that serious.
But there's an emotional detachment that you've got to bring to the table. Easy to say hard to do. Where you're trying to pull away, and not be involved in their drama and saving them every single time. For example, if you've got a kid that's married to a dirt ball. You're not going to have these conversations, where they call and whine about marrying a dirtball or living with a dirtball.
"Hey, that was your choice." You're nice about it but you're firm. "That's your choice, I'm not going to listen to you whine and complain [Inaudible 00:23:31] because that's your choice. You've made your bed. The answer, as we've discussed." You'll say this briefly, "Is leaving him or leaving her, end of story. When you're ready to do that, we'll have a conversation." Otherwise, it's just continuing to help them feel better about being in their sin.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Dr. Clarke: "Sweetheart, you married a dirt ball, you know that now and you got to get the heck away from him. When you're ready, look, I'm not going to force you, but when you're ready."
Because, sometimes, they're not. It takes time for them to realize "This person's really not going to change." And they give and give and, then, they, finally, get there, hopefully, they get there.
Dr. Clarke: You can see in the book there's little nuggets, I call them "Your one way true statements". You pick your spots, God will give you opportunities, but they're very brief and they're one-way, just drop it in. Well, you married this person and that's what's going to happen. And, then, you don't have the dialogue about it. You're not going to try to talk them out of it. It's just simply, "Okay, that was a choice. You can make another choice and then you move on."
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So if a couple is hearing this and say some parents can struggle on how to deal with this child. How do you counsel them to be a united front, to show unification? Because you don't want to give a different message. You don't want one enabling and the other saying, "No, we've got to stop here." To the child.
Dr. Clarke: It's critical and I stress, if you're not a team here, you're going to lose. It's going to make it so much more difficult. Kids, as young as two years old, know when mom and dad are doing different things and they know how to play you. It's human nature, it's ugly, but that's what it is.
A 20-year-old certainly knows, or a 30-year-old, so you want to be a team. And the key is your marriage is more important than that child. The Bible teaches one flesh more important than anything else humanly speaking. Kids are important, but they're beneath you on the stratosphere, so you're on the pole.
So your marriage is more important; you focus on that, you build your marriage. And then part of that I'll mention don't obsess over the child, have two prodigal-free days a week. You're not going to talk about the kid.
You're not going to communicate with the kid, borrowing emergency, all right. And you're building and, then, of course, part of that is working as a team to have a united front. If you're not agreeing, through your own discussion, that's why God made Christian counselors. See a Christian counselor, see if you can work it out. Read David Clarke's book.
Sometimes they'll listen to someone else and if it makes sense, they can compromise, if that doesn't work, okay. I had these two areas where if it's a man and a woman, husband and wife. If the husband wants to do things a certain way, you've gone through the steps and you think he's wrong. But it's not a sinful choice it's just his approach, then, biblically, you would support the husband, the man is the leader. But if his approach is sinful and harming the child, okay, different story. Now, we're going to have to do some tough love.
Dr. Kim: Good point. Very good point, yes, you've got to be united because I've seen it happen the other way, where they're not. Like you said, it just made me think of one of my grandsons when he was three years old. That he went to his dad and asked him something, and the dad said, "Usually he'd ask the mom." He was thinking. He goes, "Why'd you ask me?"
And he goes, "Because mom said no." And, so, they learn it really early.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, they do and they're diabolical.
Dr. Kim: Now, it's cute when they do it at three. It's not as cute when they're doing it at 30 or 40.
Dr. Clarke: Boy, that is for sure, and they do the same thing. And this, of course, you've seen it, Kim, it destroys a marriage, it destroys it.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: Because the kid is so important, we can't be united, it just tears at the fabric. So you need to work it out.
Dr. Kim: Well, and that's a good point, the marriage has got to come first. And you and I believe that, and God designed it that way. And I think sometimes what happens, in these situations, one of them is, at least, putting the child above the marriage. And that's never going to work, is it?
Dr. Clarke: Ah-hah, it doesn't help the kid, obviously, the prodigal, it's enabling, and it just destroys respect and trust in the relationship. So those things have to be worked out. I go so far in the book, if it's a sinful approach by one of the spouses, then you're going to Matthew 18:15 through 17, that person. You're going to go through the steps of confrontation trying to stop them. And if that doesn't work, we may even have to look at shunning in the home and separation, this is serious stuff. We're actually trying to protect the marriage as well as the child, it's worth a try.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, because the marriage you want to survive after those kids, the one who won't leave, but the rest of them have probably left, you want to survive that.
Dr. Clarke: Yes, you can't wait. What any child does or any other person does, dramatically, affects your marriage, but it does if you're not together.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So what about other family members, maybe siblings, grandparents, that impact that the prodigal can have on them? How do we handle that?
Dr. Clarke: Boy, this can be a powerful dynamic, Kim, you know this, and you model it for the rest of the family because they're all affected by it. This is a family and they're being chewed up, too. But you model the steps and you let them know the steps you're taking. "We're following this approach, we're a team, just FYI." But you don't ask them to do anything. If any one of them or more than one wants to confront the prodigal, on their own, great. But you're not even going to bring it up because the prodigal will say, "Oh, you had Johnny call me."
And you can say, honestly, "I did not. We've told them what's happening, that was his choice." There's a powerful dynamic when even if one other member of the family, could be a grandparent, follows up and would also confront and follow the steps, that could be really powerful.
Now, it's not just the parents who the kid might expect to do that. Now it's somebody else and maybe somebody else. The key, though, is you don't even ask them to do it. You model it, and some will and some won't, and that's their business.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Dr. Clarke: But if even one will break ranks it's okay, now, we have a little more firepower, my grandpa. And I mentioned this in the book, there's usually one grandparent or two, or maybe a sibling that prodigal is close to and respects, and there's a bond. If that person will say something, okay, that could have an impact.
Dr. Kim: That makes a big difference, doesn't it?
Dr. Clarke: Yes. A little boy that loves his grandpa and grew up with him fixing cars, or fishing, or playing golf, like I did with my son, and now he's an adult. That grandpa who's still around, who knows what's going on, could have a big impact.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, there's that bond there. I saw that in my kids, they would not do anything to disappoint my parents. They had that kind of relationship, and that was a great constraint to have as they grew up.
Dr. Clarke: It is. "What would grandpa and grandma think?" Exactly, and you want to use that for a healthy leverage. "Oh, yes, they'd be disappointed, they'd be hurt."
Dr. Kim: In a healthy way, there's a legacy they're trying to pass down and you're going to break that? I want to ask one thing, you use a word that a lot of people don't use, and that's word sin.
Dr. Clarke: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Talk about that.
Dr. Clarke: Yes, sin, what is sin, Kim? You don't hear it anymore. It's in the Bible, it's all the way through the Bible. "Don't do these thing they're sin because they destroy you." It's hard to find a church where it's even mentioned because we hate to offend people. So, yes, we talk about sin, and we confront sin, and we clearly label this as sin.
Now, we're all sinners and you can even share, a part of the sharing with the prodigal is, "I've been down this road, I sin. Hey, and I paid the price. I'm not throwing any stones here." But the fact is, and we're really pointing them to God in the Bible. "Bobby, Susie, this isn't me talking." Which is what the Bible says, this is God talking to you. And, so, I'm trying to follow His principles but we have to call sin.
See, now we have a whole redefinition of sin, in this crazy culture, there's no sin left, other than, maybe, murder. Pedophilia is barely hanging on as a sin. You got to be kidding me. So it's a voice in the wilderness to say, "You're sinning."
Dr. Kim: Well, and I think Jesus modeled it so well for us. He confronted people with their sin. He loved them and He gave them an opportunity to change, and that's really what we want, is for them to turn to God, to recognize we're on a path of sin. We're not doing what's best for us, what God wants us to do. But we have an answer, if we confess, and God's going to help us.
Dr. Clarke: Oh, you're right.
Dr. Kim: There's a way out. There's always a way out.
Dr. Clarke: Jesus was so masterful, of course, if you think of the woman at the well. Awful life, living a terrible life, He loved her and He gave her a chance and, of course, she responded. The rich young ruler did not, he walked away, had his chance.
Jesus said, "Here's your opportunity." Jesus is right in front of him, he walked away, okay, and Jesus didn't say, "Hey." He didn't harangue him or chase after him, that's your choice.
Dr. Kim: No.
Dr. Clarke: Boy, well, that's what we're doing with the prodigal. "Here's God's way and here's your way, which is the world's way. I'm asking you to do it God's way, and that's up to you."
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. I love this. I love the book. Any final piece of advice or encouragement that you'd like to share?
Dr. Clarke: A couple of things, Kim, number one is I think it does help, that's why I wrote the book, to have a clear, practical, biblical plan, that you're following, not just winging it. Because no one's ever had a prodigal before. When you have one, it's like, "Whoa". And, so, what do I do?
So it's helpful to say "I've done my best with this biblical plan." And it'll help you sleep at night. And, also, we never need to forget that God is in charge. His will be done, He will not be thwarted. He is well aware of the prodigal situation, and that's where prayer is very powerful, part of this program, and we'll see what God can do. He can do anything.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Dr. Clarke: And, of course, you'll have people praying, you'll have your men's group praying, your pastor praying, of course the family is praying, the prodigal doesn't even know it. But those are powerful, asking God to intervene and do something to bring something into the prodigal's life that would actually lead to a crisis that would lead to them stop and listen.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, so, good. People, the book is Adult Children Who Break Your Heart. David on the website, it's davidclarkephd.com, correct?
Dr. Clarke: Yes, you don't forget the E, davideclarke.
Dr. Kim: Oh, davideclarke.
Dr. Kim: That E is critical to us, davideclarke.
Dr. Kim: It certainly is, maybe we send them somewhere else we don't want them to go.
Dr. Clarke: That's right.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and there's so much, you've written so many good things on narcissism and stuff, and it's so practical and so scriptural. And that, like I said earlier, it's a comfort to people to know that, "Okay, I'm listening to what Dr. Clarke's saying, but he's backing this up because this is what the Scripture says." And, so, you've got that confidence of not only a professional like you, but also that you sought God in this, and this is God's plan and this is what He wants for you.
Dr. Clarke: And that's, of course, my hope, and desire, and plan. You don't want David Clarke's wisdom, no, you want God's wisdom. I package it a certain way as you do, Kim, and I'm a big fan of yours, too. I think you're doing a wonderful job helping people, very practical principles.
Dr. Kim: Yes, so also you're on TikTok, now?
Dr. Clarke: I am into TikTok, these little videos, I talk fast and I talk quick, and I'm loving it. I don't have to explain anything; I just say stuff. People find me and then they go to the longer form podcast or a book. They can talk to me on the phone. So we get them in the boat that way, it's been great fun. We see God using it in amazing ways.
Dr. Kim: It is, it's amazing. So if they go to the website, that can lead them to just about everything you do, podcast, everything else?
Dr. Clarke: Yes, it's the whole thing; davideclarkephd.com. Of course, E in the middle and then Clarke has an E on the end. Boom, you're going to find out everything.
Dr. Kim: And we'll put all that in the show notes, so people can make sure they find it easily.
Dr. Clarke: Thanks.
Dr. Clarke: Thank you for spending time, today. Thanks for your friendship. Thanks for the work that you do and the people you help. And, I think, we're going to get a lot of feedback from this, it's going to touch a lot of hearts. It's going to help people, maybe, take that step that they just haven't been able to take, yet. And you make it so clear and so simple, and it makes so much sense, so thank you.
Dr. Clarke: Well, thanks, I love talking to you, Kim. Appreciate you having me on.
Dr. Kim: Thanks.
[00:36:05] < Outro >
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