5 Rhythms For a Healthy Marriage with Chris & Jenni Graebe | Ep. 545
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage podcast. I'm excited to have Chris and Jenni Graebe with us. They've been married for 17 years. They're co-hosts of the Rhythm of Us Podcast and the authors of Rhythm of Us: Create the Thriving Marriage You Long For. Guys, thank you so much for taking the time to spend some time with us today, and welcome.
Jenni: Oh, honored to be with you. Thanks for having us.
Chris: Yes, this is going to be great.
Dr. Kim: Yes, we talked ahead of time. Chris and I've known each other, I guess, off and on for quite a few years now, and it's so good to reconnect with you guys. So tell us a little bit how you met and give us the background. The people that may not know you, of how you started your life together, all that good stuff.
Chris: It all happened on the first dating app, 18 years ago.
Jenni: No, there were no dating apps back then.
Chris: There were no apps. There was no swiping. You had to actually do the real work, in person. You had to walk up to a stranger and talk to them.
Dr. Kim: And it was so scary.
Chris: Anyway, go ahead, babe.
Jenni: Well, we were actually at church, believe it or not. And he was sitting in front of me and the pastor said, "Turn around and greet your neighbor." And as he turned around and I was standing behind him.
Chris: And it was the lights, Kim, the lights were there. The smoke, the glitter was just floating down.
Jenni: The angels were singing.
Chris: I was like, "Well, I love Jesus, I don't want to get married or anything." I was like, "Easy." So easy, yes, that's how it works. The whole, "Turn around and greet your neighbor." So look for anybody listening out there, when your pastor says, "Turn around and greet your neighbor." You never know who might be sitting right next to you.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, whom you might meet.
Jenni: Be careful where you sit, yes.
Dr. Kim: So what did you think of this guy that turned around and met you?
Jenni: Well, he did make a first impression. He made a big first impression, for sure.
Chris: We can't confirm or deny if it was good or bad, it was an impression.
Jenni: Yes. No, but it was such a sweet season. We were young and just on fire for the Lord, and just trying to do relationships right. Both of us had had several relationships up to that point. We were 21 and we just really wanted to do it right, for the first time ever. And, so, we took it really slow and we tried to be really intentional about it. And we had a lot of wiser older people in our life that we tried to give the freedom to speak into our relationship, and call us out where we needed to be called out. And we just really wanted to do it well.
And, so, we took our time. We were friends for a while before we actually started dating. And then once we started dating, it went pretty quickly after that. We were engaged for five months, and then got married, and then we started having babies pretty quickly after that.
Dr. Kim: And you have five now.
Jenni: And now we have five, yes.
Chris: We do.
Dr. Kim: I want to go back to something that you said, Jenni, is that you had some people that really spoke into you during that time. Tell me a little bit more about that because that's so valuable for couples and I think so few couples either don't have the opportunity or don't take advantage of maybe an opportunity that's right there. How did that make a difference for you guys?
Jenni: Sure, yes, I agree completely, Kim, it's so important. And it's probably one of the greatest gifts that the Lord's given us in our marriage. Especially in those early years, just being able to have a handful of couples around us who'd been married 30, 40, 50 years. Who were still in love with each other after all that time, we were so in awe of that. And there was something about that that caught us, just stopped us in our tracks.
And we just made it a priority to spend time with them, and to ask them questions, and to make sure that we were learning all that we could from them. So that we could have a handful of things to start our marriage off with right. And that just really helped us to set a good foundation for starting off.
Dr. Kim: I love that. And that's why I wanted to go back to that because I just hope somebody who is listening today hears that, and if they're in that looking toward marriage stage. Find you a couple that's ahead of you, at least a stage ahead of you. But the longer they've been married and you look at them. They're just some people you look at that you see and you just know that they've got a good marriage, just the way they treat each other. The way they act around each other. So just grab one of those people and say, "I want to buy you coffee." And go do that.
Jenni: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: That's my soapbox for a minute. Okay, let's go back to the book. In the book you wrote, "Our rhythms determine our future." What do you mean by that?
Jenni: Yes, what we mean by that is just that the habits that we choose to fill our lives with, whether we like it or not, determine the couple we become in the future. The things that we choose to fill our homes with. The way that we speak to each other, and the decisions we make, those all carry us to a certain place.
And, so, the question we have to ask ourselves is, "Do we like the couple that these habits, these rhythms that we're filling our life with, is shaping us to become? Do we want to become that couple that we're headed towards? Do we like the place that we're headed?" And if not, how do we change it? And taking a good hard look at what are those habits? How can we name them, together, so that we can be more intentional with what we're choosing to fill our life with?
Chris: Yes, and I think one of the things people need to realize is like it or not, you have a rhythm. It may not be the rhythm that you want right now.
Jenni: But you have one.
Chris: But you actually do have a rhythm. And, so, what we're trying to do here is we looked at our life and the habits are the rhythms that we've learned and seen and helped us have as a marriage that we have today. And really helped us through some of those hard seasons, and really has been just the cornerstone for us.
Obviously, Jesus is in the midst of all of it. These rhythms have been really vital for us. And all those thriving couples that you talked about. The one you go, "Man, what is going on in their life?" More than likely these five rhythms are at the core of what's happening in their life and in their marriage.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. So, with you guys, being married 18 years, when did you realize... was there a point that you said, "Our rhythms aren't going where we want them to go?" And you took the time out to look at it?
Chris: Yes, one of the things we were talking about before we jumped on here is that's always the biggest thing. Self-awareness and acknowledging, "Hey maybe there's outside stress or whatever, but we're coming at each other and, so, we seem a little out of rhythm." And the idea behind this is giving someone a framework to be able to have that safe conversation with their spouse. Not, "Hey, you're doing this, or you're doing that, or you need to fix that."
And it's like, "Hey, are we in rhythm or out of rhythm? How did we get here? What's going on? And what do we need to do?" And, so, as we looked across our marriage and life, there's been some seasons that are just stressful. And at the end of the day, it's like, "Okay, we've acknowledged this, I love you, and we're in this for the long haul. What's going on with you or with me? And how do we best work on that?"
And I think that's the piece, a lot of times, that people get in trouble with because they don't know how to communicate that. They get stuck, they don't know how to communicate it. And, so, for us, luckily, I want to talk everything out. I'm like, "Let's talk and talk."
And we found a balance where we both can now, after 18 years, identify like, "Hey, I'm in a funk or you're in a funk." And we can approach each other because we've got some trust built there to go, "Hey, I think, we're out of rhythm over here a little bit." And we can have a good, healthy, conversation around it.
Jenni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I love the word rhythm because it speaks a lot and, I think, we can all relate to being out of rhythm. When you were talking about that, I just flashback to some early years of our marriage. And some of our issues, we knew they were there and we were self-aware of them. We just didn't know what to do with it, and we'd talk about it. But what do we do to get help?
And then we'd be okay for a while and then we'd get back into it. And from counseling couples all these years, a lot of couples get into that. You just are aware of it, but then you don't take a next step to make things better.
Chris: Well, a lot of times we talk about being in rhythm and you can have some ruts in your life. And one of the ruts we talk about is your inherited ruts. Meaning what did you see growing up? What were some of the examples you saw? And a lot of times, maybe couples, I'm imagining a ton of the couples you talk to go, "I've never even seen how to get out of this cycle or to get out of this rut. How do I even do it?"
And that's where it's let's just give some easy handles. Where we can have a conversation and go like, "Hey, I think, we're out of rhythm over here. How do we get in rhythm? Here are some handles, let's do this. We may not have had it modeled for us. But that doesn't mean that we can't change that and really have some fun, and get some work done, and have a great marriage."
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so true, I think I see that more and more. The couples grew up in homes, so many people today that just didn't have that modeled for them. And, so, you go into marriage just like, "Wow, what do I do in those situations?" So what are some core rhythms that you guys see are crucial for a healthy couple?
Jenni: Well, there's five that we've outlined in the book; Speaking life, serving, slowing down, seeking adventure, and staying in awe. And, obviously, we write a lot about each one of these and expound a lot of them in the book. But we can go through each one if you want to.
Dr. Kim: Yes, let's go through them. I love them.
Jenni: So, speaking life –we talked about sitting down with a handful of incredible couples, when we were first married. And I mean, by and large, this was the number one rhythm that each one of those couples modeled for us. I mean, that was one that I noticed about them before they even spoke it out loud to us, that it was a value. We could tell that the way that they spoke to each other and about each other, there was just this foundational sense of respect that they had towards their spouse.
This deep gratitude and just respect for the other. In the way that they talked about them, both to them and around them, just the way that they held them in such high esteem, and that just stood out to me.
Even as a little kid, I remember seeing couples like that, that just really stirred something in me. And that's something we found to be true, of all of these couples, that the way that we speak towards each other matters. And we started with this one in the book because it's kind of the keystone habit that sets the tone for all the other ones. Because it doesn't matter how romantic my spouse is towards me, how many date nights they plan. If they're not speaking words of life towards me.
If all they're noticing is my fault, and pointing those out towards me. It doesn't matter how many flowers you bring me, that's not going to make any difference at all. The words that we speak, they just creates the culture between us. And, so, that's really the best place we found to start, is by looking at your words that you're speaking towards each other and about each other.
Dr. Kim: That's so good and our words are so important. The Scripture gives us some examples of how important our words are, and we can just speak life or we speak death. And, yes, sometimes, we just get in these ruts or habits of just not speaking very kindly to our spouses and it does damage. Yes, you bring the flowers but if I've yelled at Nancy and said some unhealthy things, she's probably not going to put them in water. She's probably going to-
Jenni: That's going into the trash.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and if I'm nice to her, and I'm kind, and I'm loving her the way God wants me to love her. She's going to leave those flowers in water till they can't even stand up anymore. It's just a big difference there, I love that. So what's number two?
Chris: I want to say one thing. We recently just did a retreat, where we went and shared the five rhythms and we were walking through it. And we looked out across the room and we had hit this rhythm, the rhythm of speaking life. And something very interesting came out of that. And there was this table time discussion, couples were talking to each other. And then when we got back together, we did a quick survey of the room. Because one of the things I had heard was...
I asked the question, "How many of you saw speaking life modeled for you as a child in your home?" Meaning you saw dad showering mom with praise in front of you. Or you saw mom celebrating dad and how hard he's working.
Jenni: Any kind of affirmation.
Chris: Any kind of affirmation between mom and dad. Not necessarily to the kids, like, "Hey, kids, you're great. You did a great job at soccer today." But I'm talking between mom and dad, about mom and dad, when they were together. And also speaking life about them when they weren't around. And you'd be shocked, the general consensus was about 99% of people did not see that modeled for them, as they grew up.
And, so, that was a defining moment in that room. Where the 40 or 50 couples that are in that room, who probably had a hundred children, representative between all of them, decided that this is something we're going to do for our household and our families. And I believe it's going to impact generations to come because of just that one decision, of embracing this idea that God speaks life through words and His Word, and that they're going to speak life to each other. That will reverberate through the years to their grandkids and great grandkids.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. In counseling couples, and I tell them when you do make that change, your kids are going to embrace it. And that is what they're going to remember. So no matter what you've done or where you were before, if you make that change now, it's going to impact those kids. My parents did this well. And I think growing up, Chris and Jenni, I didn't realize how blessed I was to have that mode.
Because I began, probably as a teenager to see, go to other friend's homes and see they treat each other differently than my parents do. And that awareness came and I began to realize that what a blessing it was that my parents did that for us. And it made such a difference for Nancy and I in our marriage, for sure.
Jenni: Hmm, that's so good.
Dr. Kim: Let's go to number two.
Jenni: Okay so the second rhythm is the rhythm of serving. And we always talk about this one as not being like the sexiest rhythm. This is not the one that everyone just jumps to right away. Like, "I really want to jump into serving." And it is, honestly, one that has been the hardest for us. We talk a lot in the book about how independent we are and that's something that drew us to each other, when we first met. That was one of the things that attracted us to each other. That we are both strong and independent.
But what can happen in our marriage, if we're not careful, is that we can just start running side by side, very independently and strong. Without really needing the other or allowing the other to serve us.
But what we've found is that we do need each other. And there's a lot of fruit that comes in our marriage when we enter into each other's worlds, and then choose to serve each other in those places. And, so, that's something we really have to work on. But it's something we've seen a lot of fruit from in our marriage. And this was another thing that, across the board, we heard from those older, wiser mentor couples. They said, "Go out of your way to serve each other."
There was one, the example we use in the book, some good friends of ours when we first got married. That said he filled up her gas tank every single week. And he said, "Look at her, she's so beautiful she should never have to touch a gas tank." And she hadn't, she had not touched one in decades because he just chose like, "No, this is something I can do that communicates, 'I love you, I'm taking care of you, and I've got it taken care of.'"
And, so, this is where it gets really unique for every couple. Because there are, certainly, things that matter to you, Kim, that I'm sure would not matter to me. But we all have things that speak more to us as individuals. So one of them for me is every morning Chris makes the coffee because I am not a morning person. And when I come down those stairs, and I turn the corner and I see that little blue light on the coffee pot, I just know it's going to be a great day. I mean, it speaks so much life to me.
Chris: I might get lucky, if that light's on-
Jenni: That's really a motivating factor for serving.
Chris: I mean, look, I know what's up, here to serve. I'm here to serve. Here to serve you, babe.
Dr. Kim: But that blue light will be on every day, right?
Chris: It's on every day, brother.
Dr. Kim: Of course, the problem is you'll probably be making coffee in the afternoon and at night.
Jenni: He will not stop making coffee.
Chris: Like, "More coffee, the blue light is on. Do you want more coffee?"
Jenni: Did you notice?
Chris: One of the things I will say about the serving piece. We got a lot of rhythms to get through, is I think we can find ourselves because our kids just need us. They need survival-
Jenni: Their needs are urgent.
Chris: ... and, so, it's like, "Oh, you need food and clothes, again, here you are." So we just go into serving them and we go, "They're going to be fine. Your spouse is going to be fine." But if, again, another opportunity to model in front of your kids to set the example for them is like, "Hey, it's important for me to think through; what does mom need? She's stressed right now. She's got this big project in front of her. I want to help take that off her. We're going to go do this." Or like, "Hey, you know what? I know you don't like doing the dishes, so I'm just going to do them. It's fine, I'll put my hand in that gross, I don't care."
But it's just understanding and it speaks more than words could ever do. I mean, at some certain points it's just going like, "I see you, I see what you need, and I'm just going to jump to action and get it done." And serving is so powerful.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. I mean, I think, I had to learn to serve without expecting anything in return. But then Nancy did return and she would serve me and I would return it. It's can get to, kind of, sometimes, almost a game. How do you out-serve each other? Which is a lot better than when we used to fight about things. It was much better, but that's such an important part.
And I agree because what you said is, it's true they probably will be fine, but fine is just not enough in a marriage. You can't just put your spouse over there, while you raise the kids, thinking they'll be fine and expect something to be there when the kids leave at all.
Jenni: Right, for sure.
Dr. Kim: Number three.
Jenni: Okay, so number three is the rhythm of slowing down, and this one is so huge. They're all huge. And I keep saying that I'm like, "This one is my favorite." But in different seasons, like you said, how do you make sure you stay in rhythm? I think there are different seasons where a different rhythm might be more crucial than others. And this one was one that for us, learning this and naming it, brought a lot of fruit to our marriage. And we just needed it.
We needed that reminder that life is going by so fast, and if we're not careful we can just skim across our life and not actually live it, and not treasure it. And that would be the greatest tragedy of all. To look up after being married for years or after the kids leave, and look back and go, "Where was I? I wasn't present to the best parts of my life, which is right now. Which is right in front of me. These kids, this spouse that I'm given, it's an incredible gift. And it requires me slowing down to be present to it, to actually treasure it and enjoy it.
There's a mentor, couple of ours, the Foremans, they call this rhythm step into the painting. And what they mean by that is when you're driving by a glowing sunset, instead of just driving on by, pull over, take it in, get out of your car. Really cherish that moment, step into that moment.
And that's become such a mantra of ours and a great reminder of this rhythm, to slow down in those moments where you catch an opportunity to slow down.
Instead of just running on with whatever to-do list you have for the day. Make the choice to go, "No, I'm going to take this moment. I'm going to pause, I'm going to step into the painting, I'm going to step into my life." Because the reality is the best moments of our days are not the drawer that we got organized or the laundry that we got put away. It's the moment I said yes to my spouse. It's the moment I said, "Okay, yes, let's go on the back patio and enjoy that glass of wine."
Or with my kids, "Yes, I will make that batch of pretend cookies with you." Those are the moments that matter. That's what makes up the life we're longing for. That joy, that's where the joy comes from. And a lot of times the joy that we're lacking is really found in those moments., where we slow down and cherish the moment that we have together.
Chris: Amen.
Dr. Kim: So cool. And it probably means you have to say no to some things, right?
Jenni: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: And learning to do, and that that's okay to do that.
Jenni: Yes, that's a big part of being able to say yes to the right things, you're right, is being able to acknowledge the nos that you need to say, as well, to the things that are less important.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
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[00:24:17] < Music >
Dr. Kim: Number four, I love this.
Jenni: Okay, rhythm number four, I'm going to let you tackle this, this is your favorite.
Chris: It's the rhythm of seeking adventure. Adventure has been, I didn't even know how to put into words, as a younger lad. But as I've gotten older in life, I've realized that adventure is just a core component of who I am and what I want to do. And then I look at our marriage and go, "Man, we are called to adventure." Not just me and like, "Oh, I'm going to go try this cool thing or that."
It's like, "No, let's go into this thing together." And, so, our marriage has been a pretty fun ride. It's been filled with a lot of adventure. And I think one of the things we realized when we talked to couples about this, it can be a wide range of reactions to this rhythm adventure. And those who are risk averse are like, "I'll skip your rhythm number four, rhythm of adventure, and let's move on to the next one because I have a safe X, Y, and Z, and I don't need your little adventure. Thank you very much."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Chris: And, so, one of the things we asked someone who was wired that way one time. We're like, "Well, what seems like an adventure to you?" And they said, "Anything that is new." Anything that they've never done before seems like an adventure. So this can be very wildly different for every single person of what an adventure means.
And, so, we're not telling people and says, "Hey, let's go have an adventure that you have to quit your job, and move across the country, and do all that." What may seem like an adventure for one is not really for another. So it really comes down to your personality type. But the idea here is let's stay awake, let's stay alive, and know that we serve a God who is full of adventure, and has called us to this wild one life and adventure.
And if we are blessed enough to have a beautiful spouse or a loving spouse with us, that this thing is not called to be boring. You don't get married and go to die and forget that oh like, "I had all this fun in my youth." No, now, we get to have an adventure together. We'll have this adventure with these kids and then they'll move on and we will continue to have adventures. So the rhythm of adventure is just one of my faves.
Jenni: Yes, and the truth is, we're all wired for adventure. I am technically the safer of the two of, of this pair, but I still need it. I know that I need it. And there have been seasons, where if you say no too long to the adventures that the Lord is inviting you into, you will start to rust out. You'll start to feel that apathy creeping in, and nobody wants that. Nobody wants to get to the end of their life or to the end of their marriage together, and look back at all the things they wish they had done. Nobody wants that.
We all want to look back and revel at all the adventures we got to have together. That's the kind of life and marriage that we want. And when we looked at the marriages that we admired most, that was something true as well of these couples. That no matter how old they were, they still kept this sense of adventure in their life. They still kept the courage to say yes to some new things that God was inviting them into.
They did not become risk averse or completely safe, to the point where they shut that down. They kept growing as a couple. And, so, that was something that we found to be true of them. And that's something that we've had to really work on as well. Chris is very good at this; he's good at saying yes to everything.
Chris: Well, yes, it comes down to saying yes to the right adventures and realizing-
Jenni: And, so, we have to help each other in that way.
Chris: Yes, every day, there's opportunities for new adventures. Especially in my brain and in my life, I'm like, "Let's try this." But hopefully as you grow, I understand what makes her really nervous. And I'm responsible to really do some lifting on my side, get through some filters to go, "Bah" and let that adventure go to the wayside. But when it's really time and it's something God's put in my heart, then I can bring it to her. And it's a place where she goes, "Okay, if he's bringing this to me, I know that there's something there and we need to talk it out, and figure it out.
Jenni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. And you kind of hit on it, but adventure is different things for different people.
Jenni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I mean, adventure for some people may be finding a book they want to read together. And that it's going to help them grow or maybe they're taking... right now, Nancy wants us to do an online Spanish class together. So we are going to be doing that.
Jenni: That's adventure.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and, so, I'm a little more like Chris. I would like to do a little more of – I've got to jump out of something, but she won't and she doesn't like heights. So we've eliminated a few things which you have to do because of who your spouse is.
But, yes, I think there's just so many ways that can play out for every couple and that's part of the fun of marriage. It's just exploring and doing new things together. And I tell couples, all the time, "If you get bored in marriage you're not doing it right." You can't learn everything there is about that other person in a lifetime and just explore life together. So I love that one, that's so cool. Are we already down to number five?
Jenni: We are down to number five.
Chris: We did it, here we are-
Jenni: Yes, and you really set up the last one well by saying that last statement. The last rhythm is the rhythm of staying in awe. And what that really means is we talked about these couples, who we studied and found these core rhythms. And that was one that we found as well. There was just this sense of, "I get to be married to this person." That never left them no matter how many decades they were married. And that's something that we can actually practice in our life.
Viewing our life together as an incredible gift that we get to have instead of a burden to bear. And we always have the choice, right? Every day that we wake up, we have that choice. We can view our life as another day to just survive. Or we can look for every gift that God has planted along the way. We can look at our life together with gratitude or we can find everything that's wrong with it to complain about, the choice is ours.
But what we found to be true about these couples, who've made it together across the long haul and really stayed in love with each other, was that they have this sense of awe towards the great gift of marriage that they've been given and towards the gift of their spouse that never leaves them. So it's really about cultivating that mindset of viewing our marriage as a great gift rather than a burden to bear.
Chris: Yes, and one of the things I hope everyone listening will hear is that each one of these rhythms starts with the relationship that you have with Jesus Christ. Speaking life to the Lord through prayer and your time, serving him, understanding what He's called you to. The idea of slowing down with Him and going on an adventure.
But when it comes to awe, the same thing applies. That if we look at God and His grace and His goodness, and He looks at us and He loves us. Even in all of our brokenness and all of our stuff He goes, "Hey, you're amazing and I want you to be mine."
There's a level of awe that if we can harness that and capture that with God, and then we turn and look and go, "Hey, this beautiful woman, next to me, is created in the image of God."
And sometimes people go like, "How do I even harness that? What does it even look like?" And the thing I always like to say is I want you to think back to your wedding day. If you want to capture awe, that was a day. When you looked at your spouse and she walked down the aisle, as you stood there staring at each other's eyes, there was awe all over that. I think awe by God in a moment of joy, and excitement, and blessing.
But also that's where people can go "I'm trying to harness that feeling." Well, that was that day. And the beauty of it is the deeper you go into this life and this marriage, when she sees all of my stuff, all of my junk. My good and my bad and she continues to show up for me, there's even more awe than the day that she stood there and said, "Yes" to some skinny dude whose hair wasn't gray at that point. That kid had no clue.
But now we've walked together and when she walks down those stairs every morning to go find that blue dot. I am in awe when I see her going, "Whoa, that is my girl, that is my wife. That's the gift that God has given me and I don't ever want to lose it." Just as when we drive past the sunset or see a horse running in a field, we know awe. And man, when you have it for your spouse, when you're in that rhythm, it is the sweetest thing ever.
Dr. Kim: That is so good. And when you do these rhythms, we're talking about. If somebody says, "We've lost that, that can come back."
Jenni: Yes, for sure.
Dr. Kim: I still marvel that I get to live with this woman every day. That I look at her and I see who she is and how other people look at her. And I think, "I get to go to bed with this lady every night. I get to wake up with her." And I still am awed at that every day, that that is the person God gave me to live my life with. And there're probably days in our marriage, times in our marriage that the awe wasn't there. But because we've worked through things and done things, that awe can be there and it's pretty special. I love the way you described it, Chris.
Chris: Thanks.
Dr. Kim: So we've talked a lot about the rhythms. What happens when a couple gets out of rhythm?
Jenni: Yes, I think the best place to start is by having this conversation. And what we've loved hearing from couples, who've read the book and gone through it, is they've really loved having this phrase to come back to and say, "Hey, I think we're out of rhythm over here." Instead of, "Hey, I need to talk to you about all the things you're doing wrong."
It's just a little bit easier to hear, "Hey, we're out of rhythm over here."
Than, "You're really not doing this well over here." So, I think, the best place to start is having an honest conversation. All change begins with honesty; we have to start there. We have to have that conversation and be honest about what's bothering us in a loving, respectful way. But pointing to the problem from the same side of the table, as opposed to making each other the problem, I think is always a good place to start.
Chris: Yes, and I think if you are the person that goes, "Man, I really feel like we're..." Because here's the deal, I mean, if you ask the question, "Hey, are we in a rhythm or out of rhythm?"
"I think we're in rhythm."
And like, "I really don't think we're in rhythm." So I think the thing that I would encourage everyone, before you even have that statement. One, I would go to the Lord, I'd spend some time in prayer, I'd get in the Word, and I would also do some self-reflecting.
Okay, if I feel like we're out of rhythm in this area before I go and hopefully they come to the table, to this aha light-bulb moment, that they've been doing whatever. What have I been doing to contribute to this? Because I'm the other side of this team. I'm on the 50% of this team here. What have I been doing or what could I do to maybe help us get in rhythm? And then with a moment of humility, come and ask that question. As we sit next to each other, on the same side of the table, looking at the center going, "Are we in rhythm or out of rhythm?"
And then trusting the Holy Spirit to do the work that you've already done in prayer, in your time and self-reflection. That hopefully God will move in your spouse as well, to have a good conversation to ultimately get back in rhythm.
Dr. Kim: I love that. Because I think anytime we start pointing our finger at our spouse. We've got to turn that and point at us first, and let God work on us first. Then I think it's so much easier to talk to our spouse about where they are and those kind of things, and what do we need to change. That's so good. So we talked a little bit about your kids before we went live. You have five; you have a boy and four girls. What are their ages?
Jenni: So our oldest is 17, just turned 17, he's a junior, our only boy. And then four girls 14, 11, seven, and five.
Dr. Kim: Good job.
Jenni: So, yes, it's a busy season in the Graebe household, for sure.
Dr. Kim: So how do you make these marriage rhythms happen, when you got five kids around?
Jenni: Yes, that's a good question.
Chris: Yes, I think, every season looks differently. But, I think, one of the things is that we know that they are here in our house for a season, and that God has blessed us to love them, steward them, challenge them, encourage them, lead them, shape them, form them, point them to Jesus, but they will go. And, so, we know that the best thing for them, and for the Lord, is to make sure that He's number one and that our marriage is number two. And that they get the opportunity to see that.
And, so, there's some seasons where it's hard to steal away a date night. But then there's some seasons where we say, "Hey look, we're getting away, just us." A lot of times I'll see families and it's just like they always take the family vacation, but they never take a them vacation. Where it's like you got to get away just the two of you. And sometimes people are doing that because they don't want to be alone. They haven't figured, they're like, "No, it's, the kids." You know what I'm saying?
Jenni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I agree. I've had couples say to me, "You want me to take a trip just the two of us, what will we do?" Well, I can get you a list.
Chris: Yes. So that's the part for us is we really try to take a pulse on it and go, "Okay, we've been pretty busy with, with Team Graebe, as a whole, the whole family. But what do we need to do?" And I'm probably more of the spontaneous one, shocker, it's close. But there'll be a night where I'll go, "Hey, we need to go out."
I mean, newsflash, we have a 17-year-old and he's a pretty decent babysitter. So you know what, everyone is alive when we come home that works, and pizza, and everybody is good. So it's like, "Let's go." And sometimes it just feels like, "Arh, but right tonight? It's a Tuesday." But it's like, "Yes, tonight." And then we sit there and we sit across from each other and it's like, "Hey, how are you?"
Jenni: Yes, well, I love that you said that because I think there are certain things we can plan. Like we've talked about making these things that we value most into rhythms. That means they've become regular habits. So there are things we do, on a weekly basis, to make sure that we're staying connected.
Every morning, before the kids wake up, you're going to find us in these gray chairs right over here with our coffee. He's going to make it, but I'm going to stumble down the stairs and grab a cup and join him. So that we can just have a moment to connect before our day starts. Most days, that is where you'll find us. When the kids go to bed at night, that's our time.
Sometimes it miraculously happens, and we get to get out of the house and have a date night. But, more often than not, it's here, we get to have that time in together, but regardless, we're going to take advantage of that time. That's our time to connect with each other.
But then we also have to steal those moments when they come. Like Chris said, we have to make it important to us so that our eyes are looking for it. So when those opportunities come up to spend time together or to step into the painting together, to slow down, to step in and serve each other, we're looking for ways that we can do that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, and our kids need to see that, too. We talk about modeling, I mean, when your kids come down and they've seen that you guys are having that time and that you're spending that time, that's such a great thing to model for them, that's important. And that you get up, and get caffeinated, and sit there by Chris in the morning. I mean, that's maybe a sacrifice.
Chris: Yes.
Jenni: And it's important.
Chris: Well, I think sometimes, too, to help parents understand that if we're having that time, and they're going to stand on the other side of the glass door like, "Are you ready? Are you ready for me?"
And it's like, "No, we're not ready yet. This is mom and dad's time." It's okay to say that.
Jenni: It's okay to say that. And it's probably good for them to know that you're a priority to each other.
Dr. Kim: Because you want them to do that when they're married.
Chris: For Sure.
Jenni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And I think our kids seemed to understand it more as they got older. When they were really little, it's like if mom and dad go somewhere to talk, they are crawling under the door, those kind of things. But at some point notes-
Chris: Notes.
Jenni: Notes slipping under the door.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and then you have to become a little more creative. But as they get older they begin to value that and see it. And I can just remember there were some pictures that Nancy and I would be doing that. And one of the kids had walked by and I know they were going to come and ask us something, but they didn't. They'd walk on and then come back later. So I think it's a great model that you guys are doing for them. So let's talk, if somebody's listening today and they're thinking, "God, that sounds good. I love what Chris and Jenni are doing, but we're stuck." Where do they start? What's their first step?
Jenni: Yes, that's a great question. And, of course, it's different for everyone. And what's encouraging to me is that we've heard from couples, who have gone through these five rhythms and found a helpful handle to just grab onto one of these. So maybe it's speaking life and you can start there. I would encourage most couples to start there.
I mean, I can't think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from some words of life in their marriage. Speaking words of kindness towards your spouse is often the best place to start. I think a lot of times when we get stuck in these ruts, that's one of the first ones to go. It's just the way that we speak to each other without even realizing it. We can just be in this habit of cutting each other down with our words and not even know that we're doing it.
So when we acknowledge that and we can start to just change the way that we speak towards each other. Even if I still have all these frustrations about what's going on between us. If I just take that first step towards the words that come out of my mouth towards my spouse. It is incredible how that can soften the other person on the other side of those words.
I think serving is that way as well. If you can just take the time to think about your spouse's world. To just shift your eyes from yourself to theirs and just notice, "What's one thing that I could do this week?" Maybe they've already been asking you for a while now, and you just have to take the initiative to do that one little thing, and just watch them. It means so much to them, whatever it is.
So I think every couple is different, but if you can start with one of these rhythms. Just pick one and start there. And just do a few things this week to move towards your spouse in that positive way. And then watch and see what will happen on the other side of that.
Chris: Yes, that is so good, babe. I would also say the book is on Amazon, so you can just go get the book and I'm just kidding. Sorry, am I the sales guy? Anyway, I just think it's just understanding where you're at, being patient, trusting God, lean into the Lord. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. Come in with humility, and just know that you really can...
I just hope people understand that Jesus wants them to have a phenomenal marriage. He is desiring more than you even think you are for a blessed, fun, adventurous, passionate, awe-filled marriage, and it is possible no matter where you're at. But it's just going to take one step at a time. It's going to come with some humility. You talked about it earlier, Kim, sometimes you serve to not get. And, so, you may start speaking words of life going, "Hey, I'm saying some pretty great things over here. Did you want to say anything back to me?"
And they'll go like "Nothing, other than the four-letter words so keep on sucker." And, so, you just go, "Okay, got it. I'm going to keep serving, I'm going to do what I can. I'm going to sow the seeds and we're going to let God do the growing. I'm going to sow seeds, I'm going to water, I'm going to let God do the growing and He'll produce the fruit." But it just takes a willing heart and an open hand, and where the soil is good, then, God has the potential to do the miraculous on top of your everyday steps of faithfulness.
Dr. Kim: So are you saying, Chris, to just really not have any expectations other than what it's doing in you, and then trust any change in your spouse to the Holy Spirit?
Chris: That's exactly right.
Jenni: That was good.
Dr. Kim: Well, I've learned that counseling to help people see that because sometimes they think, "Oh, I did all these things and they didn't do anything." Well, and I think that's what you were saying about letting God and praying because then your obedience comes to God. And, "Okay, God, I'm doing this today because I know you want me to serve my spouse. You'd want me to speak kind words to them." And they may not respond day one, but I think eventually they will. And, I think, your life is better when you do that, even if the response is not immediate. Don't you?
Jenni: Yes, absolutely. That's a good point.
Dr. Kim: I do. So out of the five rhythms, for each one of you, Chris may have already said his. But which one has made the biggest impact on you individually?
Jenni: That's a good question. I think for me it depends on the season, honestly. We've been married 18 years. So early in our marriage, speaking life was really huge. I did not grow up seeing this rhythm as a part of my family life. So it was really hard for me to get in the habit of doing it. And it wasn't that I wasn't thinking nice things, I just wasn't in the habit of saying them out loud. But what I found was Chris even had to say to me, a couple of times, like, "Hey, I just need you to tell me I'm awesome, sometimes. I just need to hear it."
Chris: Who doesn't need that?
Jenni: I know. But he really did a good job modeling this for me when we were first married. Because he's just really good at doing this, this is a strength for him. I mean, he encourages people, strangers walking in a parking lot. I mean, it just comes out of him naturally. This is something he's really good at.
So I learned by example, by watching him do it. And, and you're right, if you keep affirming your spouse over and over. And you keep doing that over time, it is almost impossible to not reciprocate that. If somebody is going out of their way to speak life over you, to serve you. I mean, you have to be pretty stubborn to keep your feet in the ground and not give them anything in return. I mean, it's just our nature to want to reciprocate that.
So in our early years, speaking life was a big one for us there, and that really helped set the foundation. But I think over the last few years, probably, slowing down for me would be what I would say, I just needed that reminder. As a mom of five kids, I have a lot of to-dos. I'm sure everyone has a lot of to-dos, but it feels like a lot of urgent needs.
And if I'm not intentional and careful, I can get lost in that list of to-dos every single day. And look up over weeks and go, "Wait, what is our life? What am I doing? Have I actually enjoyed any of these moments or am I just surviving them?"
And, so, this has been just an incredible rhythm, for me, to be reminded to slow down that the to-do list can wait. That pile of laundry will still be there later. And I can step into this moment with my spouse, this moment with my kids, and really cherish it while I have the opportunity to.
Dr. Kim: I love when you say step into because that's such a good visual. It's like I'm stepping away from all this hubbub, and busyness, and my to-do list, and I'm stepping toward what really is important. That's such a great visual.
Jenni: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So, Chris, what was yours or is yours?
Chris: Well, like she said, I love speaking life that's something. And I love adventure, and awe, and I'm going to go towards that. But I do think one of the most important ones for me. That I think really Jenni has been so good at being patient and helping me grow up, through the years, it's this rhythm of serving.
This idea of looking for ways to see what she needs in the day-to-day, in the bigger picture. Listening to what she's saying. Serving can go through all of them. "Hey, I need to help you slow down. What can I do to help you slow down?"
Serving could even be in a world of going like, "Hey, I hear you keep talking about taking that class." Like your wife said it was Spanish. Or "I hear you talking about maybe you want to write a book, or start a podcast, or put this mom's group together." Whatever it is, "How can I serve to make that a reality?" And that one's just been one that was always a shocker, newsflash, I was way into myself. And she helped me, she helped me grow in this idea of graciously and lovingly helping me understand the power of serving.
So God did it through her serving me, in my younger years of like, "Let's go and change the world."
"Let's move here and do that." And she's just like, "Okay, all right." And then it's just like, "Okay, wait, hold on, this isn't Chris's adventure. This is Chris and Jenni's adventure that God is directing and writing, not you, Chris. So why don't you step aside, serve, come with the servant's heart." And it's just been really impactful for me, for sure.
Dr. Kim: I love that. Wow, that's powerful. Very cool. Okay, last question, what are you loving about your marriage right now?
Jenni: Oh, that's a great question. Yes, for me, I enjoy this guy. I'm just so grateful that we enjoy each other. For me that's probably what I'm loving about our marriage. I'm very hopeful for the future when someday our kids grow up and leave. I'm not at all afraid about that season. I'm excited about it because I know we're going to have such a blast. And, so, I'm grateful that I enjoy being with him more than anybody in the world. And, so, I think, our future is going to be bright because we have a lot of fun together and I'm grateful for that.
Chris: Such a good answer, she is awesome.
Dr. Kim: That's so good.
Chris: Yes, for me, like I said earlier, every day, every month, every year that we're together, we really become one. It's like I get her, she gets me. When it's like, "Oh, she's having a bad day."
It's not like, "Well, what did I do?" And it's like, "Okay, well, what does she need?" And I think just being that close in lockstep it's just really neat. And the other part that's really fun is doing things like this. I mean, when I stepped out of my role as a local church pastor and said, "Hey, I'm going to go do this entrepreneur thing." And then I'd tie her to me and we'd jump off this cliff, and we ended up having a podcast, and now we have a book, and getting to see her do things that she's really great at.
I mean, it's this place of like, "I can't ever let her just sit on the sidelines again." Not that she's got some big ambition to be some influencer, fill in the blank. It's not, it's actually the opposite. But she's got a gift and a talent, that when I watch her step into it, and you heard it here today, she is called and God is using her in a big way. And, so, for me, it's just interesting to see what's going to happen. And I just want to be faithful with that and love her well, and get these kids out of the house when the time comes.
Jenni: No rush.
Dr. Kim: Those are great answers and so true. I think that learning to embrace each season and also looking forward to the next. I mean, as our kids got closer to graduation, we were beginning to just think about what's it going to be like to not have to come home and help with homework, or fix dinner, or all these kind of things. And, sure, when the last one leaves there's a little sadness because you have entered a season.
But then you're looking forward to something. And I think what you guys are talking about, with the rhythms, help build the things into your marriage that make whatever season you're in and the next season so much better. Because you're doing the things that neat you together in a really special way, man, I love it, it's awesome.
Chris: Oh, thank you.
Jenni: Thanks.
Dr. Kim: So Chris and Jenni, thank you for being here. The book is The Rhythm of Us: Create the Thriving Marriage You Long For. The podcast is The Rhythm of Us. Where else can people find you?
Chris: Yes, well, all the Insta webs, Instagram, and therhythmofus.com. And then a lot of people may be listening to this; we've put together a quiz to basically help you discover which rhythm is maybe missing in your marriage. And, so, if you go to marriagequiz.com, super simple, 60-second quiz to help you discover like, "Hey, this is where it's missing." And there's a little video from Jenni and I explaining what happens if you don't get this rhythm there. So we're having fun. Just go to marriagequiz.com and we'd love to see you guys there.
Dr. Kim: Perfect. And we'll put all that stuff and all the links in the show notes and so people can find you guys. Thank you so much for spending time today. Thank you for what you're doing and it's great to see you guys.
Chris: Awesome, thank you.
Jenni: Such an honor, thank you so much. This was such a joy.
Dr. Kim: Thanks.
[00:55:29] < Outro >
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