Boundaries Within Your Marriage | Ep. 546
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most into in that relationship.
There are several types of boundaries that you need to have within your marriage. And chances are you already have a lot of them, even if you haven't had an official conversation with your spouse about them. But there may be some pain points in your marriage that can be helped by implementing healthy boundaries.
Today, we're getting into the dirty details of some boundaries that might be needed within your marriage. To help you, your spouse, and your marriage be your healthiest. We're so glad you're joining us today. So, Dr. Kim, what are some types of boundaries that are needed inside a marriage?
Dr. Kim: Well, the boundaries are needed inside of a marriage, and as you were saying, Lindsay, I think, a lot of couples don't really know that they've really already established some boundaries. I think we did that, in a lot of our marriage, before we ever understood what boundaries really were all about.
And, so, some boundaries that are needed, I think, physical and emotional space. We're different in that. Usually in couples, we need time alone. We need time to think and process. We need time to rest. And if you're at a different level there, you've got to figure that out. So that both of you can get those needs met the way they need to be met.
In a sexual relationship; boundaries, what's okay, what's not okay? Timing; when? Where? All those kinds of things. Just in the things we do daily around the home with parenting. And who does this, and who does that, and chores, and quality time, making sure that's set aside. And what are the boundaries we need to set to make sure we get quality time. In our relationships with each other and with others. Trust, fidelity, what do we need to make sure those things are going on consistently, in our relationship?
Lindsay: Yes, those are great. As you're saying them, it seems obvious that there's some really important stuff to tackle there. But I don't know how many times I've had an intentional conversation, in my marriage, about every single one of those. Sometimes it's just more trial and error, and it would have been helpful if we had defined those things earlier, instead.
Dr. Kim: I think a lot of us, we just didn't know going into marriage, and especially those of us who got married pretty young. We just, kind of, stumbled into things. And then we realized, "Okay, I need some alone time, and every time I look up they're there, or they're wanting to talk or this." And, so, you go hide in the closet or something so they can't find you.
Instead of sitting down and saying, "Hey, I really do need some space. I do need some quiet time, at least once a week, and let's work out a way to do that."
Lindsay: Yes, as an introvert, I feel personally attacked by that example, but I think it's valid.
Dr. Kim: Thank you.
Lindsay: You've done your job.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: So some of those that you listed are boundaries outside of the marriage, so with others. And some are boundaries inside a marriage, or they could fall into both categories. So there's going to be boundaries between the two spouses that are personal, and then between the two spouses and the outside world. And the ones we're focusing on today are within the marriage. So we'll get into those today and the others in the next episode.
So, first of all, I'm thinking if we're going to start to zone in on some of the ones you've listed. I think that will help start the process because we can't cover every single boundary, you might ever need to set, of course. But we can start with some of the ones you mentioned. And one place, I think, it's an easy place to start is conflict. Setting some rules of engagement and boundaries about how you will and won't fight. So in that, what are some rules that you recommend for engaging well, in conflict?
Dr. Kim: Say I have a couple come in, and that's something that they're dealing with. A lot of conflicts, not resolving things, fights, escalating. And, so, we start out, really, by writing down what are the things you fight about. And usually the typical things of money, or kids, or sex come up. I mean, those are the most typical things that I see, overall, in counseling. And then we talk about, "Okay, how do we work on this together?" And that's going to include setting some boundaries.
And, so, one of the things that I always tell them, "If you guys are..." What would happen, a lot of times, with a lot of couples, is that they get into something. They get frustrated, they get angry, all those kinds of things. And, so, you need to really put some boundaries around those conversations.
And, so, don't ever try to resolve anything when you're angry. It's never worked for Nancy and I. I just don't think it works. I become very self-centered when I'm angry. I want my way, I want to win, those kinds of things.
I think not yelling, you got to keep your voice at a normal level when you're talking to each other. You don't want to overpower someone with your voice or try to win with your voice. And you got to listen well. And I think that's the hardest thing for most of us. Is knowing that, "Okay, if we're going to talk about this. If we're going to talk about conflict. If we're going to resolve conflict, we got to listen to each other."
And then I think we use the time out. So we've talked about off and on in a lot of different situations. To agree that, "Okay, hey, if we're trying to talk about this, and we're not doing well in this conflict resolution. That we call a time out so we can part, and we can think things through, we can pray about it, and then come back and talk about it again"
And, so, I usually have couples go through this process. As we set the ground rules and the foundation to find what it is, is to really set the time and a place to do that. A lot of times we have something that we need to resolve, and we just do it at a time that's not really good for both of us or one of us.
If Nancy is cooking dinner, I come home and I unload some big problem about finances on her. Well, that's not a good time for her to talk to me. If I've had a busy day, and it's 10:30 at night, and I'm exhausted, and she brings up something that's not the best time for us to talk.
So you need to set a time and a place that works for both of you. You need to make sure there's no distractions. And, so, that means if you got kids, you wait till they're in bed or they're not there, and you turn off all the mobile devices. All that kind of stuff that can distract us so you can really focus on the problem.
And then I think it's really important for each one of you to say, "Okay, this is how I see the issue. How do you see the issue?" So you have to the same issue, but you may be coming in at different ways. So you want to make sure you're on the same page with what you're trying to resolve.
And then you'd come up, "Okay, what do we do? What do we do different? What have we been doing hasn't worked. Now we need to do something different." And you come up with something that you both can agree on. And then you begin to evaluate it and to see if it works. And, then, if it works, great. If not, you reevaluate and you try to come up with something else.
And, so, those are the kind of things that I think you do to resolve an issue. And those issues are usually things that are going to bring the conflict up in the marriage. And, so, when the conflict comes up, you haven't resolved the issue. That's when you don't try to resolve things when you're angry, not yelling, listen well, those kinds of things. And then when you finally sit down and try to resolve the conflict. Then you can use those steps of setting the time in place. No distractions, stating how you feel, brainstorm ideas, pick one, and then evaluate what you've done.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, those are so good. I mean, that's such a helpful set of rules of engagement and boundaries, around that conflict. And I did want to mention that we do have a Conflict Cheat Sheet. If you heard that list and you thought, that's really good, I need that written down. You can stop and rewind and take notes or you can look at the link in our show notes.
We've got the Conflict Cheat Sheet, which is really a lot of Dr. Kim's processes for dealing with conflict. But, Dr. Kim, the first one you mentioned is not trying to resolve an issue when you're angry. So practically speaking, if you're going to decide to set that as a boundary.
But that's going to be hard to do. Because anger is really hard to figure out what to do with that emotion when you're in the heat of it. How are some ways that a couple could decide to make that happen?
Dr. Kim: I think you have to agree ahead of time that, "If we start getting angry, we're going to call a time out. If you don't acknowledge that, I'm going to leave." Not permanently, but you're going to leave the situation. You've got to break the cycle and I think that's so hard for couples. And, honestly, I think some couples you kind of get, sometimes, where you like to fight because you kind of get back in the old, especially, if you're competitive, you get back, "I'm going to win this one. She's not going to win again."
And "He's not going to win again." Those kinds of things. And, so, all those things are so destructive for your marriage relationship. And, so, I would say that you've got to get the anger out of it. The anger does nothing. To me, anger should be a sign that there's something wrong. And what do I do with that? God says "In your anger do not sin."
And, so, I can be angry and I can say, "I'm getting angry, we need a time out, I need to go cool off." Or I can be angry and I can say something I regret, I can raise my voice. I can do something stupid. All those kinds of things that we can do when we're angry. And, so, the only way God gave us anger just like He did every of the emotion. It's not a bad emotion, but it should be a red flag for us.
And, so, the key is then how do you handle that red flag when it comes up? Do you continue to go down a road or a path that's going to be destructive for your marriage? Or do you take a time out and say, "Oh, I don't want to go there. I need to recreate. I need to pray. We need to come back and talk about this later."
Lindsay: Yes, that's a great point, I love that you said those-
Dr. Kim: And that takes a lot of work.
Lindsay: Yes, and you said just breaking the cycle, and that's huge because I think that's really helpful. If a couple thinks, "Okay, I don't even know how to not just say the thing when I'm angry." That's a great place to start, it's just breaking that cycle.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and some couples, they get in the habit. You just get in this habit, and you just assume what the other person is going or where they're going with something. And they can say something pretty innocent, but it triggers something in you. And then, all of a sudden, you get mad because you have all this unresolved stuff that you've got in your life, with your spouse. And, all of a sudden it, all comes to service at one time and then, bam, there you go again.
And, so, you've got to learn to resolve things. You got to learn to break those cycles and do something different, and it makes such a difference in your life. I had one couple that I tried this with, and they're the only couple that I think was really successful with it because it's hard.
But I asked them, "Okay, when you guys get angry like that, stop, look at each other, say, 'We're going to pray.'" And they would stop and hold hands and pray.
He said it was the hardest thing he's ever done, "Because I was just so mad at her."
And she would say, "I didn't want him to pray for me in that time." But God showed up in those situations. And over time that became their go-to for times when they get angry, "We're going to pray." And they'd come to God. And that became their habit instead of escalating. Saying bad things, doing all those kind of things that we hate, after we've done them in a marriage.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, oh, that's really good. Yes, that's so good. So that was a lot of great places to go with conflict boundaries. That kind of takes us into boundaries with our words. And, so, I think, these are going to be challenging because for a lot of us, like you said, it is a habit. They're just like our go-to, it's what we're used to.
And, so, I think with the conflict in the words, it's going to be some breaking habits, which will be difficult at first. But, like you said, if you just can start to break that pattern, it's really worth it. So what are some boundaries with words that you would suggest or share?
Dr. Kim: No, you're right and a lot of us have used words in, probably, a bad way from way back our family of origin maybe. Or in our years before we got married, things like that. Because to protect ourselves, or getting power, or whatever.
But the Bible is so clear that there's so much power in words. When we're upset, we can say things that are really hurtful. That can just damage our spouse. Things that we don't really mean, I think most of the time, in our heart, but we say them when we're fighting back. We're trying to gain the upper hand or we're trying to hurt them like they hurt us.
So those are things that you don't want to do. And I think you've got to do some things like taking divorce off the table. I think when Nancy and I did that it made all the difference in the world. Because then instead of just saying, "Okay, we'll just get divorced and go our separate ways, and never resolve anything. Miss each other, come back, and then just repeat that cycle again."
It's like, "Okay, if we're going to be in this together, we got to figure out how to solve these problems. We've got to resolve conflict together in a healthy way." That was a huge step for us. Our marriage is designed to be the closest relationship next to our relationship with Christ, that we have in this life. You know things about your spouse, most of us do, that nobody else knows. The longer you live with each other, I mean, I feel I know almost everything that could be to know about Nancy. I'm sure there's things I don't, but a lot.
And, so, I also know her insecurities, I know her vulnerabilities. And, so, God, put me in a position, in a relationship with her, to know those and to come alongside of her. And to help her with those things, not to use those against her.
And I think a lot of times we get close to somebody, we're vulnerable with them, we share things, and then they use it in a fight against us. And that does so much damage in a relationship. Because, all of a sudden, not only am I mad at you, but I don't trust you. Because you've shared something and used that and turned it around against me, that I was asking you to help me with. And, so, all of those things go into the power of words and the things that we don't want to do, in those relationships.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's good. Another one that made me think of it's like not saying, "Oh, you're just like your mom. You're just like your dad." Those kind of things. Just saying really triggering topics or words that are, I guess, that's not name calling. It's just, what would you call that, negative, just bringing up negative stuff.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it is. It's negative, and it's blaming in a way, and it's a dig. I mean, it's a jab. Especially if in the past that you guys have talked about your mom. You've talked about how she bugged you and how she bugs other people, and this kind of stuff. And, all of a sudden, your spouse goes, "Yes, you're acting just like your mom." Well, it just doesn't go well at all.
Lindsay: Yes, I think, those are some really fair word boundaries to have. Because none of those things are helpful at all. They're just hurtful.
Dr. Kim: Exactly. Sometimes, we just use things, say things, that are so damaging and we continue to do that. And, sometimes, we don't really know how damaging they are because maybe they do in the argument. Maybe you say something that is so hurtful. Maybe you're just like, "You're just like your mom." And that hurt deep because your wife or your husband has worked hard not to repeat those same things. That their mom or dad said, or did, or actions, or behaviors like that.
And, so, it can really shut things down a lot. And, realistically, all of us are going to have some attributes of our parents. And my goal is always to take the really good things from my parents, and there were a ton of good things. And very few things that I really didn't want to bring forward into my marriage from that.
But say you've had a really bad family of origin. Well, you want to take the good things out of that and you want to leave all that bad stuff behind. But sometimes those things continue to creep in as we're refining, and growing, and trying, to become more of who God created us to be.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, and that's an instance where it doesn't matter how true it is, that you saw that similarity in your spouse between their family. It doesn't matter if that's true, at the moment, that's not kind and it's not helpful, so you don't need to say that.
Dr. Kim: No, it's not Nancy's mother standing there. It is Nancy standing there. And, so, when I'm just putting something on her, that doesn't need to go there at all. I need to deal with what we're dealing with, not bringing in something else. And I think a lot of times we do that just to build our case, or to stop the argument, or something like that.
And all those things are just... sometimes, I think, we feel like they work for the short term because the argument stops. But in the big picture, it does so much damage.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, I think so. I think a couple of more of the boundaries with words, that I think of, is just bringing up past things that aren't relevant. And that's what you were just saying I need to deal with the situation that's happening right now and not everything that ever happened, or not anything that's not relevant. I think that's an important thing to keep in mind as well.
Dr. Kim: I do, too, you've got to stay on topic. I remember one family that I was working with and this was a son, daughter-in-law, mom and dad of the son. And they were having all these conflicts. And, so, I had them all in there together and I said, "Okay, then, what are we talking about?" And I started talking about an issue that one of them brought up. In five minutes we probably had ten other issues that-
Lindsay: Oh, my gosh.
Dr. Kim: Well, no wonder they couldn't resolve anything because they kept adding things on. And, so, all of a sudden, they're just overwhelmed. They don't even realize what they're talking about, now they're just arguing. And, so, sometimes, we do those kind of things. If I'm upset about something or Nancy is upset about something, we've got to resolve that issue. Not that plus A, B, C, or D or something that happened a week ago, or a year ago, or we think it'll happen in a week or something like that.
Lindsay: That's huge. And I think that really, if we go back to the very first thing you shared, which was do not try to resolve issues when you're angry. I think that alone is going to help all the other things. Because then you're not saying things just because you're heated, and you're popping off, and you're not saying these hurtful things. So, I think, man, these all work together in a really good way.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: That's so good. So let's move on to time boundaries. Because this is where maybe it's easier to be a little more less emotional, perhaps, maybe not. I mean, I know these topics can get pretty heated, too. But time boundaries, what would you share about boundaries of time that spouses need to have?
Dr. Kim: I think they are important. I'm going to go back to one of the things that we talk about a lot, and that goes back to setting aside time for God and your spouse every day, and being consistent with that. And, so, my calendar has time for God blocked off. I mean, if you looked at my Google Calendar it's got – Time with God.
It's got – Time with Nancy on it, and I hold those times sacred. And when I do that consistently, it takes care of a lot of the other time issues in my life.
Because what I would do is that I would, "Yes, those are important to me, but if I had to bump something on my schedule, it would be, I'll squeeze God out today. I'll squeeze Nancy, I'll make up tomorrow. I'll read two chapters in the Bible or four chapters in the Bible tomorrow, or I'll spend extra time with her tomorrow that I didn't spend today." And I didn't do that. It just wouldn't, it was just an excuse to get me off, to make me feel okay about what I didn't do today.
And, so, I think, that part of it comes out is getting your priorities in order. And when you do that and God's first, and your spouse's second, you're spending time with them. I think a lot of the other things fall into place. And a lot of things that maybe you're trying to squeeze in, don't become as important as they were to you before.
And, so, I think, it's really good for a couple to sit down and set your weekly schedule together. You want to make sure you've got your time together with God, for the two of you together. And, then, you can do other things; what are we doing with the family this week? What are we doing with friends? What about your hobbies? What about, yes, you need some alone time. How are we going to put those kinds of things in?
And, so, making sure that we've got time to do the important things, it's sometimes... What's the book that was years ago, the Tyranny of the Urgent. How we would let... something comes up and we know other things are more important, but this one is just hitting at us. And, so, we stop something else to address that. And we really, usually, end up stopping something or don't do something that was going to really be beneficial or helpful for us, or someone else.
And, so, I think, I love those conversations on Sunday afternoon, "Hey, what's your week look like?"
"When are we going to have a date night?
"Hey, I found a new Bible reading plan, let's start that in our time together, before we go to bed at night." There are some of those things that you put some things in the time and block out the world. If something is on my calendar and it's Nancy, or God, or things like that. And somebody says, "Hey, I want to see you, can you stay in an extra hour late, in the evening, at the counseling center and see me."
I go, "No, I've got an appointment at that time." Well, the appointment is with Nancy and am I going to move that for anybody. And, so, I think, it's looking like that. Setting the boundaries within your marriage. How you use time and also outside, so that the outside doesn't infringe on that. What do you think?
Lindsay: I think those are so good and I love the team approach and the goodwill you assumed there, in that conversation. When you gave the example of like a Sunday afternoon. How can we make time for you, the thing you need? And it's looking out for each other and helping each other with that.
I've seen a lot of times this time conversation, the assumption is that, and I don't think it's correct. But the assumption is that if my spouse is spending time on their hobby, that means they're neglecting time they could be spending with me. And I don't think it's a good idea to put those things in opposition against each other. Because we want our spouse to have time to do something they love. We want time to do something we love, and they don't always have to be together. And, so, I think that's a really important area to talk about and clarify.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I've one thing Nancy and I have done, I mean, during COVID is when I started learning how to play guitar. And I'm still terrible, but I'm working on it. And, so, the times I practice guitar, I try to do those at times, maybe, where she's doing her Bible study, for the Bible study she's in. Or that we try to do the things that we do separate.
So one of us isn't just sitting there waiting another to get through with the guitar lesson of the day, or practicing guitar for that day, or waiting for her to get finished with their Bible study. We try to really balance that and use our time wisely.
So that if I'm doing something that's a hobby, or something I enjoy, or I feel I want to do, or just take a nap, or whatever. That she's also doing something that she wants to do at that time. And I think what that does it keeps us from resenting that time we spend apart. And because we're just healthier when we're doing some of those things and then our time together is better.
Lindsay: Yes, I agree completely. I think that this is something that you talked about in an episode about growing attraction in marriage. Where you guys talked about, it was an interview with Kimberly Beam Holmes. And she talked about when your person is growing personally, and they're energized, and excited about things, they're actually more attractive to their spouse.
Because they're growing into a healthier version of themselves. And I've seen that a lot in marriages, and my own marriage, when you've got interests, and excitement, and you're learning, and growing, it is more enjoyable.
Dr. Kim: It is. And then you have things to share with each other. Unfortunately, with guitar, Nancy can hear me practicing. So she knows how good or bad I am. Or when I'm trying to learn something new that I haven't tried before. But it does give you some things to talk about. Nancy has some interesting things that I like, but I'm not the one who's going to spend the time reading about it or learning about it.
And I love that she does, and I love that she shares that with me, then because it's something I wouldn't take the time to do. But I feel better informed or more knowledgeable because she does, and then she's willing to share those things with me.
Lindsay: I think that's really cool. I think there are some things, though, like, I'm thinking about I don't want to throw any hobby under the bus, per se. But things like maybe it's golf, or maybe, the example I live with is surfing.
Where it's really Brian can come home and tell me about some great waves he caught and I'm happy for him, but I'm not really sharing that. It's not like, "Oh, I'm now enlightened. "It's cool for him, but it's not something we share. So in a hobby that's not really benefiting both in any way, I'm still happy that he's out there and he's able to enjoy that, because I don't care to go to that. But he also doesn't care to do my hobbies.
And, so, I think it's fine if we have things we share, but we also have things that we release each other to go and enjoy freely with no guilt. But also with some clear parameters around, "Hey, let me know when you'll be home. I would like to know, ballpark, how long you'll be gone." Those kind of things I feel like are common courtesy and I really do appreciate that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, that's a really good example. And, I think you're right, he doesn't talk about surfing and you go grab a board and say, "See you later, I'm jumping on the waves." But I think to know that we support each other in them or that we encourage them, and we're so glad that they enjoy that. And I think that's where you come alongside your spouse in that.
That doesn't mean you're going to do the same thing they do, probably not. I don't think Nancy will ever want to play guitar. You'll probably never want to surf in the same way that Brian does, but you encourage that with each other. Because when Brian does that and enjoys that, and is out there, and how he enjoys that communing with God, or just being in nature, or just the challenge of it. It's just something in him, I'm sure, that he's just a better husband and father because of that.
Lindsay: Yes, I think so. I also do think that, probably, I mean, if he were not married with four kids, he would probably surf a lot more. I think he has limited that. So there's a place in the conversation for talking about a season of if you have small kids in the house. If you have sort of a rigorous season. Where maybe we have a lot of kid activities in the evenings, and so he just misses that.
So can we talk a little bit about that? Because your example, of you and Nancy doing your hobbies is awesome, in your season. But it's not going to play out the same for somebody with the young kids around.
Dr. Kim: Right, and you've got to realize what season you're in. When you've got little kids, and little babies, and things like that, I mean, all hands have got to be on deck most of the time. And, so, the time that you have to do your hobby may be less than that. I've had guys that said, "I'm not going to play golf for four years or whatever it is, that period of time or until they get out of diapers. Until this certain season is over." Things like that.
And, so, you want to work on that together. So that the main, and most important, thing is the relationship between you and your spouse. And it's every day, "How can I help you?" And in those days when you've got little kids, there's going to be, probably, a lot of ways that you can help each other.
Lindsay: Oh, yes.
Dr. Kim: If one of you is going through something, you help each other out. And, so, you've got to be aware of those things and don't resent that. Just realize, "Okay, man, this is the season we're in and it doesn't last forever. And then we'll have another season where we are with kids not at home. We have a lot of free time to do those things when we want to do them."
And, so, that's a season that wasn't always the case. Because when the kids were home it was taking care of them, it was practices, it was homework. It was making sure whatever else that they needed and things like that. And, so, realizing that, putting the things that you want to do in there. But also realizing that that's not the most important thing in your life, at this time and never should be, but you have more time for it later on.
Lindsay: Yes, I think that's really good. The season you're in will really impact some of these boundaries. Some of them, they're only for a season, some boundaries would be.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And this hobby thing was a pain point, when my kids were all really little because it did mean I was working from home. I was at home with the kids. And, so, if Brian was going, I was the one who was feeling that added burden of him not being there.
But now if he's going, he's often taking a couple of our kids with him. And the loudest, most energetic ones, who were bouncing off the walls, back in their young days. Are now out there together with him, having a great old time. And it's really cool to see that come full circle because now it's enjoyable for all of us, in a way
Dr. Kim: That's awesome, I mean, that's really good. And you mentioned golf earlier and I probably should say, because the thing with golf, and what I hear complaints with women, about golf a lot is it just does take a lot of time.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I mean, and unless you're playing on a course that nobody else is on, it's probably going to take you four hours. And then depending on how long it takes you to get there and get back and, so, that is a real commitment. And if you're doing that, now, if it's part of your job, entertaining clients, and you're doing that on a Wednesday afternoon. That's probably not going to get in the way of your marriage.
If you're doing that on Sunday afternoon, or Sunday morning, or Saturday afternoon, then that may interfere with some things. And, so, you and your spouse have got to figure that out. "How do we handle that, that trade off there?"
And sometimes I've had people say, "I'm not going to play golf for a season right now because of the time commitment that is there. I'm going to go to the driving range.
I'm going to stay in shape with my golf, but I'm not going to spend six hours away. I'm going to spend an hour away going to the driver's range instead of spending six hours away playing golf."
So, again, it's being willing to compromise. I think we get so selfish and we think we deserve it. "Well, you're staying home with the kids and I'm working every day, and there's a paycheck because I work." Well, your wife is working too. A lot of times she's working harder than we are. And, so, you've got to respect that. And, so, you need that time, you need to be able to be there to help her, to come alongside her in those times.
Lindsay: Yes, I think that's really good. And also this makes me think of why this conversation can be difficult, is because maybe any of the things we've mentioned, so far, could be a pain point that you felt but haven't thought to communicate outside of anger. And, so, if any of these things ring a bell, I think, that's a sign that you need a us-conversation. It's not the place to throw down an ultimatum or to say, "This is it, buddy, either you quit golf or you quit me." You don't do anything like that.
It's a time to say, "Hey, I may not have vocalized this, let's have a conversation. There's some things that are important to me, that I don't know if I've told you, that I need a little time away." Or it could be any number of things but this is the precursor, identifying where that pain point is, is the precursor of the conversation. And it needs to be a us-conversation about how can we approach this differently.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And just like you said, just talking about it. I mean, you may be able to say, "Hey, uh, my parents said that they'll keep the kids one Saturday a month and that way I can go play golf and why don't you ride around with me?" Or, "You want to do this, you want to go to this festival or something, why don't you do that while I'm playing golf?"
I mean, just start the conversation, so it's a win for your marriage. Because so many times we make it, it's a win-lose. And if you're the one who feels like you're consistently losing, not getting that time. You're going to resent that and that resentment will build, and you going to get a whole another problem because of that.
Lindsay: Yes, we don't want that and it's avoidable. It's entirely avoidable.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Lindsay: But I also think, like we said, at the top of the episode, most people are not nailing this on the first try. It's taking some trial and error. So don't feel badly if that's your case. If you're struggling through this and you see some problems, that's okay. We're all working through these things. It's just you can learn a little bit more and address it differently the next time, and you can grow through that.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: When we were talking about the time boundaries, a few more that I thought of was just respecting each other's time obligations. Not taking advantage of your spouse's flexibility and taking advantage of their forgiveness.
Also not making them feel guilty for their free time, the way they use it. And then deciding how much time to each make for your extracurriculars. So if you say, "Okay, so I want to go play golf." Well, let's agree on how many hours a week is a reasonable amount and let's agree on that together. Instead of it just being a one-person, one-sided conversation.
Dr. Kim: Exactly, it's got to be a win for both and that's kind of what you're saying there. And just getting the conversation on the table instead of just getting mad at each other, and storming off, and going and playing golf for 5 hours. And you're upset because you fought about it and she didn't want you to go. And she's upset that you really left and she had asked you not to leave.
And, so, you don't want to get into those. Then you come home from playing golf and what do you come home to? Not much good.
Lindsay: Yes, exactly.
[00:33:08] < Music >
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[00:34:37] < Music >
Lindsay: So let's move on towards boundaries; respecting each other's body. So this could be a lot of things. What are some that you think of in this category?
Dr. Kim: Well, we think about body we think about the sexual relationship, the physical relationship. And I see couples doing a better job of having some of those conversations, about the physical sexual relationship than maybe they did in past years. Maybe that's just because sex is so freely talked about. And a lot of times it's not the best thing that we see in the media, or hear in the media, or see in the movies and TV, and those kind of things.
But I think for each one of you, when you're talking about respecting the body and where some boundaries are. What's that conversation look like about sex? For me to say to Nancy, "What do you want our sex life to look like? Our physical relationship to be, at this point, in our marriage?"
And for me just to say, "What I want from her." And then that's the same thing I could say, "I would love this from you in this season." And she would love this from me in this season. Maybe she wants more tenderness. Maybe she wants, whatever, and you get those things on the table. And then you come to an agreement, "Okay, where we are in this season, this is what we want our sex life to look like." And it's going to be some compromise.
But if you're both in agreement, my feeling is, in working with couples and in our own marriage, that it's going to be really good. Because you're not feeling left out, you're not feeling hurt. You're not feeling they are doing this and "I don't want them to." Or "They're not doing this and I want them to." And those kind of things.
And, so, you've got to communicate about it. And when you do then you're able to come to some resolutions. And then you get in a different season, all of a sudden, the kids are sleeping all night. Are you kidding me?
And, so, now we can talk a little bit different about our physical relationship and how we're going to handle that. Because we're going to have a little more freedom. We got a little more time. I don't have to keep my ears on alert, all the time, because we've got three babies in the house, those kind of things.
And, so, realizing that, that helps a lot. I think for guys, especially, they think, "Oh, my gosh, I've got to do this. It's going to be the rest of my life." No, this is for a season.
And if you're working together, even though you may be having less frequency, the quality is going to improve if you're both on the same page with it.
And then as you get in the new season, maybe frequency increases or whatever. But just continue to work on it that way and communicate about it.
And then for them being able to tell each other, as you've made those conversations, what you like and what you don't like. Just say, "I'm not comfortable with this. This is something I'm not comfortable with right now, but I really am willing to work on it because I don't think it's something I'm totally against. I'm just not comfortable with it right now. So can we work on it slowly or can we wait for a while, and let us develop some other things and then come to that?" It's all in the conversations.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, absolutely. And it's like the theme we're having, that I'm really seeing come up is it's all about having agreement together, a conversation together. Getting stuff on the table and making it a team effort.
A couple of more things that we have listed. That some of the rest of us on the team thought of for boundaries were what makes the spouse feel uncomfortable and what is your role in that, in helping them feel comfortable. How can you help them to feel safe in the bedroom and to build that trust, essentially?
And then what are some no go zones? What are some things you're just really not okay with having, in the sexual relationship or in any type of the physical relationship, for example?
Dr. Kim: And I think you've got to really listen to that. Most of the times, the couples I work with, it's usually the husband wanting something that the wife is uncomfortable with. And just because it's just the way guys are wired and we're more visual. And when things come to our mind, and we think about sex more, and all that kind of stuff.
What I figured out, earlier in marriage, is that I don't want to do anything that makes Nancy uncomfortable, or she doesn't feel safe with me, or she feels, "I just don't want to do that. Or "I don't want that to be a part of her sex life." I need to respect that and not to push my agenda because I want to, I don't know, check a box. That "Okay, check, we did this, we did that, we did that. Now I'm a really cool guy or something."
No, it's developing that closeness and intimacy in marriage, that draws you closer together. And, so, I think that definitely has to be a part of it. And making sure that your wife feels safe and comfortable. Because if she doesn't, she is not going to freely give herself to you. She is the most vulnerable one in the sexual relationship, if you think about it. And, so, you've got to make her feel safe so that she can really give herself. And if she doesn't, it's not going to be as good as it would be otherwise, for either one of you.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes. And I would say as a woman, for guys, whatever she says makes her feel safe or not safe.
You just have to trust that and listen because since a woman, we know that the mind is the biggest sex organ. So everything outside of the bedroom is all still in her mind, when you're in the bedroom. It does not shut off for her the way that sometimes it's a little different for guys. But, for her, even if it sounds like it's not related or if it sounds crazy, just trust her. She's trying to communicate to you what she wants and needs. And even if it sounds left field, trust what she's saying.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, just accept it and don't put her down for it. If your wife is saying don't say "That's stupid." Or "What are you thinking about that for? My neighbor, next door, told me his wife does this four times a week." Don't do that to her, just say, "Okay, thanks for letting me know."
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, it's hard to do that, but it's worth. And I think of this, I mean, it's a silly example. But in my marriage, I'm just falling apart, I guess, in my early 40s. But I have a neck issue that hurts. And, so, when Brian would hug me a certain way, it wasn't rough, it was very gentle and tender. But because of our height difference, it made my neck hurt. And, so, he would hug me and I would go, "Oh, it hurts." And he goes, "I didn't hurt you."
"Well, no, you didn't mean to. You were very gentle and kind, but it hurt." And, so, I need to be able to say, "That hurt."
And you say, "Oh, it did."
And, so, "Okay, well, let's try something different." Even if there was no intent or awareness that that would hurt.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, I think that's a really good example because sometimes we don't know. And I think in guys, sometimes, we think, "Well, of course, she's going to enjoy this." Well, she may not and if she says no, then, it's okay we'll back off.
Lindsay: Yes, and, so, to wrap up this conversation we've had, oh, gosh, so many good things to take hold of here. But let's wrap up with talking about finance boundaries; this is a big area. What do you have on this topic?
Dr. Kim: It is. Finances is always one of the top problems every time you read up something where they come up with the surveying problems, in marriages. It's been that way for all the years I've been counselling couples. That's always been at the top when other things might go up or down.
So with finances, the things that I think are really important for a couple is you both need to be involved in the finances. Because you need to, even though one person is the one who maybe pays the bills, or sets up things online, or those kind of things. But both of you need to know where you are on money.
I had a couple not too long ago and she just spent money. But he never let her know what the finances were. Now, sometimes, he would gripe when the credit card bills had come in.
But, overall, she didn't really know, and she needed to be a part of the budget. "Oh, okay, so I need to only spend this much money at the grocery store. I only need to spend this much money on kids clothes or things like that." And she was able to do that.
So you both got to be involved and your budget really becomes your boundary. And you work on that and set that together. Your budget is not a negative thing, it's a positive thing. It's a way so you both know where the money is going and how it's going. It becomes your plan for how we handle our finances.
And then once you've got your budget there as your boundary, then you stay within that. And then if, say, sometime in the month, something happens, maybe you have an unexpected medical bill. And, so, you sit down together and say, "Okay, what do we need to do to compensate for this?" And then on a regular basis you sit down and relook at your budget.
But, to me, I think having a budget is great, but you got to follow it. You've got to both be all in on it and also see that it's a work in progress. I think sometimes we do a budget. When I work with couples on that, and one or the other will think, "Oh, my gosh, this is for the rest of our life?" No, because you might make more, you might make less, whatever. This is for where you are right now.
You got three kids at home right now, so there's going to be things on your budget today that aren't going to be there in 15 years, things like that. And just beginning to have that as a guideline that can keep you accountable for each other. To honor God with your money, and then to keep you in a healthy place with your finances. So you don't go to debt. So you don't do some of the things that really get couples in trouble.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. That's really good. I think a couple of more that I thought of it's already covered. You already said it in the budget. But one of the ways that sometimes comes out is hiding purchases. Not being honest about spending. Trying to spend without your spouse knowing.
And, so, really, if you're adhering to the budget and setting that together, you're not doing that. But just to go and call that out, that's not a helpful thing to do. Also, I think, it's an important boundary to agree on what is the dollar amount you can spend without consulting each other, and set that limit.
Dr. Kim: Great. Now, those are both really good. And I think, too, if you're in a situation and if somebody goes outside the budget. I think go back and have some conversation; "Okay, let's look at this. If this is something that really needs to be an ongoing thing. Do we need to change the budget a little bit for that. Or is that just kind of a spurred that probably you shouldn't have done?"
But you don't want to get in where it's punished. You don't say, "Okay, I'm taking your credit cards." I mean, you just don't want getting a parent-child relationship with finances. And I see people do that sometimes, "Okay, you screwed up, we had the budget you didn't follow it.
You still had a high credit card bill, so I'm going to take everything back in." No, it's continuing to put the problem in front of you and the two of you solving it together. It's not you against your spouse. And just try everything you can to keep from getting into that kind of a situation.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, oh, that's such a good point. And I think one we'll probably touch on more in the how to set boundaries episode. Because those are some really important pieces to that conversation. So, Dr. Kim, would you add any other boundaries that we just have to get out on the table? We've said so many, but do you have anything else?
Dr. Kim: I think the buzzword, for me, so much since COVID started and up till today is kindness. I think a boundary of continuing to be kind to each other in the way you look at each other, respect each other, talk to each other, treat each other. Those are just some things that are so healthy for us to do with our spouse.
This is the person you are going to to walk with the rest of your life. You didn't get married so you could fight with somebody for 50 years. You got married for someone to do life with, and to grow with, and to love, and all those kind of things. And, so, I would say that. I think negative talk is huge and, especially, in our culture today, there's so much negativism out there. And I don't think that needs to come into your marriage relation, especially, when you're talking about each other or your relationship there.
Sure, if there's something to work on and work on it. But don't just sit there and put each other down. And a couple of other things is working on yourself. The boundary is "I got to work on myself first and not blame Nancy or take that to her. I've got to deal with it with God and myself first." And, then, the other is forgiveness. You got to forgive in a marriage.
And, so, the boundary being when one of us needs to say, "Please forgive me."
Or "Will you forgive me?"
Or "I forgive you." That those are things that need to be quick to be said, as you're working through things.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, gosh, those are really good. And a lot of those are boundaries that we have to make with ourselves. Just deciding, "I'm not going to hold on to unforgiveness and I'm going to go to God to have Him grow me, not to grow my spouse." Those are really good.
Dr. Kim: It's a boundary that you do within yourself that benefits your marriage big time. I mean, if I don't work on forgiveness and I don't forgive Nancy. I mean, you can't live with somebody you can't forgive who cannot forgive you. Because we're all going to mess up, I need her forgiveness. She'll need my forgiveness at some point, those kind of things. And, so, some of those boundaries, within your marriage, do come within you that benefit your marriage.
Lindsay: Gosh, that's so good. Well, so as we are starting to wrap up the conversation, we've put a lot out on the table. So for our listeners, what are the signs that they need a boundary in one of the given areas we've talked about?
Dr. Kim: Probably, if you're having a conflict over and over about something, I think that would definitely be an issue. "Okay, what's going on here? Do we need to have boundaries in the way we're fighting or we're talking about things, communicating? Why are we having this conflict?"
And we've talked about the physical and stuff, but not feeling safe. If you don't feel safe with each other or one of you doesn't feel safe with the other. Then I think it'd say, "Okay, we need to talk about that. So what do we need to do different so that you do feel safe?"
Say one feels taken advantage over by the other, consistently. Again, those are some things that go on day to day. And if you're feeling those things, then, you need the conversation. And you need to think, and the boundary becomes the way you're going to handle that so you don't cross that line. So you don't go there or continue to go there.
Lindsay: That's really good. You mentioned earlier, too, the idea of resentment. If resentment has built up around a topic, that's probably a place to address this-
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's great, absolutely, that's a good point, very good point. Yes, because when resentment build, it just doesn't go away by itself. You can't just keep stuffing one resentment down over the other. Because at some point you're going to have the volcano and you're going to explode everything and that person is going to go, "What happened? And just deal with it when it comes up and come to a resolution. "I resent that you're doing this."
"I resent that we've got two kids at home and every Saturday you're still playing golf. And the resentments are building every time I see you walk out the door and it makes me mad. How do we resolve that? How do we solve that during this season?"
Lindsay: Yes, that's good.
Dr. Kim: I tried to pick on the golfers, today.
Lindsay: No, it was just there and we couldn't help it.
Dr. Kim: It was just there, I know. I tried to think of another example, but nothing takes more time than golf.
Lindsay: Here is a challenge; if you're listening and your hobby or your spouse's hobby takes more time than golf, let us know, I'm so curious. There's probably something out there.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I know. We'd love to know. We'll use that next time.
Lindsay: Yes, exactly. So as we wrap up, do you have any final piece of advice on this, Dr. Kim?
Dr. Kim: I hope we've just cut open the door with some boundaries and realize, sometimes, we get scared of things we don't really understand. Boundaries are not to punish someone. Boundaries are there, in a marriage relationship, to make your marriage healthier and better. To understand each other better. To know lines that you don't want to cross because of how they affect your spouse or you don't want them to cross because that will affect you.
And, so, just maybe a conversation, just start with that. We've got a whole series on boundaries that we're going to work through. And, so, just how do we use boundaries in our marriage? Is there an area right now that it would really help, after listening to this, to help us with our marriage relationship? And to set some boundaries that are going to help us and take that step.
Lindsay: That's so good, and we'll continue to unpack this topic. Next week we're going to be back to talk about boundaries outside of our marriage, that will help our marriage. That means with family, friends, the opposite sex. So make sure you tune in and don't miss that conversation. And then we're going to be talking about exactly how to set boundaries. So we're getting all these things on the table and then we'll go, a little deeper, on exactly how to put them in place. Make sure you don't miss those conversations.
As always, you can see the links in our show notes for the things we mentioned today, and for the podcast email. Which is where you can sign up to get the podcast bonus content. Including application questions that we write for each episode. And those are going to help you dive in a little deeper and put this stuff into practice.
So see the link in the show notes for the podcast email subscription, other resources, and to find us on places like Facebook and Instagram to connect with us there. We love to hear from you. We answer every email we get at info@awesomemarriage.com.
So if you have any questions, or comments, or weird hobbies that take forever, be in touch with us there. We love to hear from you. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today.
[00:51:52] < Outro >
Announcer: Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.