Mind Your Marriage: "Reframing" Explained, Plus How to Know If You Need It | Ep. 581
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few, on the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Does your mindset help or hurt your marriage? Do you need help to break out of negative thought patterns? Our minds are so powerful and God created them that way, on purpose. So today we're talking about practical ways you can shift your mindset from harmful to helpful. I love talking about how our mindset impacts our marriage because it's something we can all do. It's free, it doesn't cost a penny, it doesn't require anyone else's help, and it's in line with Scripture.
So the trick is just to figure out where we need to make changes and then make them. And before we dive into this topic of reframing, I want to make sure you know about our podcast email. Every week we send one email, with the new podcast episode of the week.
In addition, we have all the resources we mention, the scripture, we have application questions to help you unpack the content. We've got the transcript; we've got a ton of good stuff on there. So if you are not subscribed, head over to today's show notes and sign up for the podcast weekly email. So, Dr. Kim, for those who have not heard the term, what is reframing?
Dr. Kim: Yes, it's such a great concept. So it's really the process of changing how you really look at your spouse or how you interpret their behaviors, their intentions, we make assumptions, things like that so often.
So it's about shifting your perspective so you see things in a different light, from a negative to a positive thing. Or like Paul would say, "Renewing your mind toward your spouse." I would say, also, taking the time to see your spouse through God's eyes. And when we do that, we can take those negative perspectives and reframe them into something positive, and look at our spouse, the value they bring to us, and the value they bring to our marriage.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's so good. Well, and I love that you've already brought Paul's words into it. So what else does the Bible say about our mindset and our mental framing?
Dr. Kim: Well, on renewing the mind, Paul talks about, "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you'll be able to test and approve what God's will is-His good, pleasing, and perfect will." From Romans 12:2. I love that because it goes along with so much stuff that we see in not only the secular world but in Christian literature, too, of people saying, "Yes, we can change our brain, we can change our minds."
It's so interesting, something that, all of a sudden, we discover, today, that we think, "Oh, that's brand new." And, then, here Paul was writing about it, and it just shows the beauty of how God created us, that we can change. We don't have to feel like we're stuck in behaviors, or patterns, or thoughts, things like that.
I like when we talk about guarding your thoughts in Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it." And I think what he's talking about, there, is just really be careful what you do with your heart. If I get upset with Nancy and I just hang on to that, it's going to fester, and that anger can turn into bitterness, and all kinds of really negative things.
And, so, I want to guard my heart. I want to continue to see her through God's eyes. And, then, as my heart is right towards her, then, my actions are going to be right toward her. And I love the mind of Christ, 1 Corinthians 2:16, "For who has understood the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him" But we have the mind of Christ."
And just realizing, as believers, the power in that. That we do have the mind of Christ, we've got the Holy Spirit to equip us. And, so, we should never feel stuck because there's always a way out of our thoughts, all those kinds of things, God always has an answer for us.
Lindsay: Oh, that's so good. I mean, we're going to church already, on this one, because I love all those Scriptures. And it's so cool, what you're saying, science would tell us this is a new discovery, but the Bible said it thousands of years ago.
Dr. Kim: For so long, yes, and there are just so many different Scriptures. When we stop and look at it or search the Scriptures of just how God does tells us, to help us keep our mindset on the things that are of value, and that He would have us focus on. Plus, you're going to be happier, and you'll have more joy in your heart.
We all know people who dwell on the negative about their spouse, or other people, all the time, and, over time, it just changes your whole countenance. I think you start to look more like not a very happy person. And, so, you're missing out on a lot of what God gives us in life when we get stuck there, and you don't have to be.
Lindsay: Yes, you don't have to be. I think you're right, I mean, Romans 8:6 says "The mindset on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace." And, so, that's reflecting that shift of, almost, even physically, like you were saying. If you're physically set on the flesh and things of the world not above, it's going to just drag you down. And then Colossians 3:2 says, "Set your mind on things that are above, not on things that are on earth."
And, so, I mean, we've just got clear biblical directives to take charge of what's on our mind. One thing I love about all the Scriptures, that we've just quoted, they show us that you do have agency over your mind. They show us that we do have a choice, like you said, Dr. Kim. It's not just like, "Oh, it's in my mind, I can't help it." I think it feels like we can't, necessarily, help our thoughts, but the Scripture clearly shows us we can, we have a choice.
Dr. Kim: I think one of the best tools that I've seen that's come out, is Caroline Leaf's work on changing your mind. I can't remember what her degree is in, but she's a psychologist, something along that line. She's also a strong Christian.
So her work is full of Scripture, and it just continues to do what we're talking about. It shows that God does have answers. And she has a “Switch on Your Brain” plan, that I've had a number of people do because it is biblical and it works. And, so, if you feel stuck or "How do I do that?" Look into some of what Dr. Leaf has written because it's some really good stuff.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. And, then, you have written a YouVersion plan as well called Mind Craft, which is about the same way of renewing your mind.
Dr. Kim: Yes, same topic.
Lindsay: So good. I think that one is more like five or six days. So if you want to start with those smaller commitments-
Dr. Kim: Yes, start with our YouVersion plan and go from there.
Lindsay: Exactly, yes, that's really good stuff. So how has reframing helped you, personally, in your life?
Dr. Kim: It's been essential for me. Just like everybody else, I can fall in this trap of judging other people or putting labels on someone. Somebody cuts me off in traffic, I don't, usually, think really happy thoughts about them, or the clerk at the store is rude. I was reading some stuff by John Maxwell, who I really like, and he talks about how every person has value.
We need to look at that and look past the other things to see the value, and I love that. Because when somebody does cut me off or somebody is rude to me, I don't know why they're acting like that. So if I personalize it, then, I'm going to respond in a negative way. But I don't want to treat them the way they treated me. It's letting God help me treat them the way Jesus would treat them.
And, so, it's beginning to look at people like that. Take it into marriage, there were so many years that both of us tried to change the other person. And, so, learning to see that, "No, that's God's job to change my spouse." And to embrace who they are and to reframe that from negative, "I want to change that. If she'd only change this, our life would be so good." To look at the value that brings, and, then, if there's a problem we can talk about that, together.
But both of us did some unhealthy things, early on, to try to get the other person to do what we wanted them to do, instead of just embracing them. And when you start, one of the things that I have done in reframing, that has really been helpful with a couple of people I really had trouble with, over the years, was begin to pray for them. Which was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done, is to pray for them. Because I wanted to pray "God, do you want to take them home?" Or something like that.
But asking God to help me see them through His eyes, and it is amazing how that helps. I don't know if the relationship changed that much, but my perspective on it changed a lot. I had empathy and compassion for this person in a way that didn't before, and seeing their value and that you can care for them.
And, so, it's something that we all have opportunities to do, probably, almost, daily in our lives. And, so, we need to be able to start doing that, and just start with that simple prayer of "God, help me to see this person through your eyes." And be open to that, and it's exciting to see what He does.
Lindsay: Absolutely, yes, and it brings so much more joy in your life. Because you're presenting a person who is uplifted, and has eyes to see the good things, as opposed to that thing you described earlier. Where you're just walking around gloom and doom, and nothing's good, maybe, carrying bitterness or a victim mindset, and none of that is going to get the responses you want, from the people around you.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely not. I love talking to people like the clerk at the grocery store, and stuff like that. And it is amazing how often when I say, "Yes, how are you doing today?" And really look them in the eye, how they go, "Well, I'm not really doing pretty good, I had to put my dog down yesterday" or something like that. And people, sometimes, if I hadn't said something and that clerk was still grieving over that pet. That clerk could have been short, or whatever, or they don't care, or they're preoccupied, or something like that.
So just giving people an opportunity, it doesn't mean they're always going to share something. But I've learned that if you give people an opportunity and really listen to how they're doing, a lot of times they'll tell you. You don't always get the fine. And, I think, it's a lot of ways how you say it, and your body language, and all this stuff when you say it. If I'm just walking around the store and some clerk is stalking a shelf and I go, "How are you doing?" And keep walking. Well, sure, he's going to say fine or throw a can at me, one or the other.
Lindsay: Yes, that's true. So with the changes that you see, have you seen people with a very negative thought pattern or negative disposition change, and how?
Dr. Kim: Yes, I have. One, it's just like with anything we want to change, we've got to acknowledge we have a problem. That's the first step. We've got to think, "Okay, all these people are telling me this, so, maybe, they're right. And, so, what do I do?"
And, then, I would go to prayer and ask God to help me understand this. And I would, probably, do some journaling, trying to find out what's there, maybe even some counseling. To find a Christian counselor to help you walk through that, "Why are you so negative?"
"When did that start? Did it start in your childhood, family of origin? Did something happen to you in a relationship before?" And for whatever that mindset is, begin to heal from that. Then there's an opportunity, then, for us to change and our behaviors to change. The way we look at people to change, to reframe people in a positive way, instead of the negative way.
So a lot of it is checking your own mindset, "Why am I that way?" And deciding "I don't want to be that way." And then taking the steps to do that, and God's going to meet you there. I think a Christian counselor would meet you there. I think asking other people in your life to help you with that, to pray for you in that, all those things, and I've seen some people change.
I mean, I've seen people in counseling, literally, Lindsay, that I've seen come in and wish I'd taken a picture of them on day one. And, then, six months or a year later take a picture of them. They don't even look like the same person. There is joy in their countenance, in the way they look at life, the way they look at people, and it's a God deal. It's not me, God just uses me to sit there with people, but it's amazing. So, yes, it can happen.
And so, if you're in that situation and you feel stuck, I'd take that first step. And if you're married to someone that's like that, maybe, share this podcast with them and say, "Hey, if you want to do something, I'm with you. I'll walk with you through this, and pray for you all the way through it." Because people can change.
Lindsay: Yes, totally.
Dr. Kim: I mean; you look like what God did with Saul to Paul. From a person that persecuted the people, to being one that took the message to the Gentiles. I mean, God showed us that can happen. I mean, somebody that was evil, in a lot of people's eyes, all of a sudden, became the most notable character in the New Testament other than Jesus.
Lindsay: Yes, and that really gives some weight to his words that we read, at the top of the episode. Doesn't it?
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Lindsay: Yes, so if Saul can be Paul, then we have hope, too. I mean, I know you mentioned if people are saying to you that you're negative. But, on the scale, I don't know how you rate this, but I know my thought patterns used to be a lot different than they are now. Because I could tell I was more annoyed than I should be. I was more irritable. I had less patience, maybe, more social anxiety.
And, so, a lot of people would get on my nerves. I always felt like they were too complicated, too needy, it was irritating. And, so, I, finally, realized, like, "Oh, if every person around me is bothering me, it's, probably, not every person's fault. I'm the common denominator, so I might need to look at this." And I just started to ask God to help me see people through His eyes, and really what you just told us to do.
But, man, that just started to change things for me. Because I realized, "If I say that I follow Jesus, He loved and valued people. And, so, I can't say I'm following Him and hate them all." You just can't, you just can't do it.
And, so, the Lord really convicted me on that because He's like, "You're not loving people, you're just annoyed with them." And I had to really respond to that conviction, and allow Him to go to work on me in that.
But I'll tell you what, it really has changed things. I just started to say when I go to a social situation, and it's just irritating because I don't know what group to talk to. I don't know where to go, or who to stand with, or how to make conversations, all this small talk going around. And, so, instead, I would just say, "Okay, how could I make someone else feel a part of things here?
How could I ask somebody else about their life? Take an interest in them, stop thinking so much about myself." And that really changed things for me.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. It's so good. I think when we learn to connect with someone and a lot of times you just ask someone a question about, maybe, their kids, or family, or something, and they'll open up. And, then, you've got a conversation going with someone, which is really cool. And, too, something I thought of when you were talking about that, too, I mean, sometimes we have to look at and, certainly, people get in negative, thought patterns.
If, maybe, there's trouble at home, maybe, there's an illness, things like that, so just being conscious of that. Because if you don't and you don't deal with whatever that is, if you continue to let your marriage go, and it gets worse. You're, probably, going to continue with that negative mindset. Instead of "Okay, I need to address this, and we need to work on this." And begin to move forward and get out of that negative mindset.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's true.
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Lindsay: So let's take it into marriage, specifically. So I don't know how often we're really aware of how we frame our spouse, we might not be aware. But do you think that people are, typically, aware of how they're framing their spouse or how can we become more aware?
Dr. Kim: I think it starts with some of the basics. Listening to our spouse, really asking them about themselves, how are they doing? how are we treating them, "How am I making you feel?" I mean, really just kind of a deep dive into that, to see what's going on with them. And, so, something like a regular check-in with each other, is really important. We have our Weekly Couple Checkup, which gives you some basic things. But also a chance to talk about just, maybe, where you are and what's going on in your life together.
I think journaling your thoughts and your feelings about your spouse are really good. Sometimes just getting those out and on paper, you can think, "Oh, yes, that's not really good that I think that." Or "Why am I feeling that about my spouse? Because there are so many other good things, and I'm letting this one thing take precedent over all of them, and it's a negative thing." If you get stuck and want some help, go to counseling. Go to a Christian counselor and tell them what you're dealing with.
I think empathy is a big thing, and for some, it's easier to be empathetic than others. But I would pray for God to help me, "God help me have more empathy with my spouse. Help me see things through their eyes, help me see things through their perspective.
What does it look like to be in their shoes right now? "Maybe, "Is that why they're acting that way or something." It's why we're framing them in a negative way. And, then, just being aware of what your triggers are that make you think negatively. Because some of those things may have nothing to do with your spouse. But that's the one that we're in the relationship with, the more it comes out, sometimes.
So just being aware of that, but just that connection, looking inside, praying, empathy, counseling if you need it, and if you feel like you're stuck. All those things can help us start to be more aware of what's going on with how we're framing our spouse.
Lindsay: Yes, and I do think that's tough, when you talk about becoming aware, it's going to be a little uncomfortable because it's not a good thing to see the negative framing. So, I think, there's, almost, a self-protective impulse to be like, "I'm not going to write that in my journal, I'm not going to pray about that because it's like yuck."
Dr. Kim: Yes, it is, and we just have to come to a point, I think, to be honest with ourselves. And you're not hiding it, God knows it anyway so why not get it out there? Why not talk to Him about it? Why not write it down and decide, then, "How am I going to deal with this?" And know that it's something, and you're not unique, that all of us go through things like this with people.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. It's funny, I was just talking to somebody yesterday, about the fact He hears these prayers over and over. We're surprised but He is not, He knows already.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: But He, also, won't force change on us. I mean, we have to bring it to Him because God allows us that choice. We can always choose to stay in our way or walk in His. And, so, if we're not bringing it to Him fully, with honesty, He's not usually going to bust in there and make it happen.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, it's for the free will that we love. Sometimes we ask, if we're in a relationship with someone that's difficult, we wish God had just take them over and fix them. But if it was that way, then He'd fix me too.
And, so, the beauty in free will is that we make a choice, and we know that God's with us in making that choice and in walking through whatever we have to walk through, and that's pretty good. To me, that grows the relationship much more, our relationship with God than it would be if we were just puppets down here. It wouldn't be a relationship really.
Lindsay: Right, it wouldn't be love, it would just be control which is, He is love.
Dr. Kim: He is.
Lindsay: That's good, so how does mental framing, we've talked about some of this, but I want to make sure you get a chance to say how mental framing also impacts our other aspects of life.
Dr. Kim: Yes, just how we look and interpret the world around us, based on our personal experiences, our beliefs, our values, our background. We talk about family of origin, even personal biases that we have, and those influence how we look not only at our environment or the world that we're living in, but also the people that are in our lives, including our spouse. And, so, we're in this huge information age and some of it is great and some of it's just not.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, what do we take in and how do we look at things just, in general? And, then, how does that affect the way we're framing the people in our lives? I think we've seen that so big with some of the political divide, for one thing. I had a great friend that had posted something, I read it, it's pretty tame, on Facebook, and he got a letter from a guy he'd been friends with for 50 years saying, "We can't be friends anymore." Not a phone call to say, "Hey, help me understand where you're coming from." Not this or that.
And, so, we can get caught up in things like that, and I don't think that's the way Jesus would want us to handle things, for sure. I think some things I've seen in marriage, like, say, if someone's been in a relationship before, where they were cheated on. Then how do you not frame this new person with, how do you keep that asterisk out of that relationship of "Oh, he might or she might cheat on me, again." And don't see them for who they are, that's really important.
Our family dynamics, from our family of origin, all of those things can play. If you grew up in a household where shouting was the norm, during disagreements, they may see their spouse's raised voice as regular communication other than aggression.
I've had some people, some cultures, that just are pretty loud, I mean, they're just loud. And, so, they're not screaming, that's the way they talk. But marrying someone that didn't come from that culture and, maybe, it was a very quiet home. They'd think, "Well, you yell at me all the time."
And, so, learning how to mentally frame this person, "No, this person isn't yelling at me. That's their culture, and let's talk about it. When we're talking about something important, can you take it down a notch? So I can really hear what you're saying because I'm not." So all those kind of things.
Our expectations play a big part in how we frame our spouse and other people, marriage, all those things. And, then, just how do we look at the world we live in and all the things that can influence from our friends, media, books, movies, of how relationships should be, and, then, we begin to put that on to someone else. Instead of really saying, "Okay, what is in our marriage? What are the realistic expectations? How do we frame each other in a way that we make the most of this marriage that God's given us?"
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: There are so many things that can complicate it, I think, in our world today.
Lindsay: Yes, I would say so. And you really hit on something important about the information age, and just how overwhelming it can be. Because it's hard to sort out how things that we take in do impact us because they do.
But I've known of several couples who divorced, over the past few years. And a major factor was one spouse getting so inundated with, or so deeply into taking in information in an unhelpful way that it took them out of their reality. And they stopped being able to function in the relationship because they were consumed by media sources.
And you get into political stuff or conspiracy theories, and people can just dig in so deep, that they're not even present in their relationship anymore, and that is really tough. I mean, that's not something I was aware of before the past couple of years, and that's a real danger.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and we've seen a lot of it coming out of COVID, and the way things are done. I mean, there was a lot of politicizing during that time and just all that stuff. Then we had so many things that have divided people in so many different ways.
And, for me, I've got to always go back to the Bible and see what God says about something. I've got to get grounded there. I can't get grounded in some news media source, whatever it is. Whether I totally agree with it or not, that's not my source of how I want to look at life. I want to look at life through God's eyes, and I have to re-center myself with that.
Lindsay: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: Often, a lot more often than I used to. I think it's because I just see it all the time, in people I counsel and people I know. And, so, I've just got to continue to let God be the anchor in the midst of all this. And if we don't, we get caught up in those waves that can take us to all kinds of places.
Lindsay: Yes, that's so true, and it's a great point to look back at Scripture. I think that's, absolutely, the best tool for reframing or reshaping our minds. But, also, if you look at Jesus, Himself, and the way He lived, there was political division and tension in His time and He did not entertain that.
He was present with the people, and the Scripture tells us when He looked at crowds, He had compassion on them. He didn't look at them and tell them, "No, you're wrong, and we need to debate this." He had compassion, and that's a huge check for how closely we're walking with Him is, "Are we in that compassion or are we just in outrage?" Because he didn't live in outrage.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I think the actor that plays Jesus in The Chosen, does such a good job of helping us see that in Jesus. I think he's very anointed in that role because he does such a good job with it. Man, I don't know what I'd say if someone said, "Do you want to play Jesus or something."
Lindsay: I can't do it.
Dr. Kim: I'd be, "No, not me." So I do think he's there because he... My grandson that's in the movie industry got to meet him at a deal in Dallas, a few months ago, and he said he was just the same there as he was on screen. And that says a lot about how he's able to do that role in such a way because he's let God mold him into who he is. No, he's not Jesus, but he's able to portray that in a really good way.
Lindsay: Yes, that's cool. Yes, there's no better guide than the actual Jesus to look at.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: So if we're going to make this really practical and really sort of step-by-step. What would be the steps to reframe?
Dr. Kim: I think just the self-awareness of what you're doing. How are you framing this person? Or how are you framing your spouse? And, maybe, write those down. What are these? Are they assumptions? Are they true? What are these things, what are the adjectives I would put on Nancy? I see her and I say, "Well, she's selfish, she can be mean." All that kind of stuff, and how am I looking at that? Then after you put them down, go through and question that, is that valid? "My spouse yelled at me."
Okay, "How often does your spouse yell at you?"
"Well, that's, maybe, the first time in two to five years."
So question those assumptions. And then what we've talked about the empathy, trying to look at "What's going on with my spouse right now?"
"We've had a child that's been sick off and on the whole school year, and things have been tough, and I know she's worn out, and we've got answers, but we can't seem to get over that hump." And, so, just some empathy, "Where are you, right now, with all of this?" And focusing then on the positive. Then make your list of all the things that are positive about this person.
If you have to go back to when you were dating, or early marriage, or whatever, what were the things you love and have loved about this person? And then pray, asking God to help you see through His eyes, like we've talked about. And then I think beginning to, every day, thank God for your spouse.
I think just doing that every day, over time, God uses that to show you that this is a gift. Your spouse is a gift. "No, your spouse isn't perfect. Yes, they're going to tick you off sometimes, but, overall, this is the person I gave you to do life with, so do it well. Do it well."
Lindsay: Yes, that's so good. And, maybe, it's a good time to mention, too, that our minds do, naturally, look for confirmation of what we believe to be true. So if we believe the positive things or if we're looking for the positive things in our spouse, we're going to find them. But the flip side is true, too. If we're focused on the negative, we're going to find that. So we have to make that choice.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it is, it goes back to the choice we make of how we do it. I mean, your marriage is not going to be very good and very fulfilling if all you're doing is focusing on the negative, at all.
Lindsay: No.
Dr. Kim: And what I see is when I'm focusing on the positive about Nancy, and she sees that in the way I talk to her, and treat her, and love her, it changes her. And, so, she changes, too, and I see that in couples. And I tell couples that all the time. They say, "Well, I don't think my spouse will change."
"Okay, you change; you're going to be healthier, you're going to be happier, and you're going to be more of who God wants you to be." And if your spouse changes or not, you're going to still be better off. And most of the time that other spouse will, eventually, come along.
Lindsay: Yes, in your recent podcast interview with Jeff and Tami Allen, there was a moment where Jeff said, Tami, his wife, is a direct reflection of what he's pouring into her, that was something they learned from their pastor. And I was like, "Oh, that was a good one." Your spouse reflects what you've poured in, so good.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it is, I just I loved Jeff and his wife, and the wisdom that he has. The guy that's this comedian that makes us laugh at marriage and stuff, a lot of wisdom he has, too.
Lindsay: Yes, that was good. Okay, what about on the other side of this? What would you tell someone who feels that their spouse has framed them all wrong?
Dr. Kim: I think go back to prayer first, and ask God, "Okay, God, this is how I'm feeling about this, help me work through this." And, then, you just take some time, "Where is my spouse coming from?"
"What's going on in their lives?"
And, then, sit down and just have a conversation together "Can you help me understand why you see it that way?" Or something that's going to lead to more constructive conversation, or understanding, or something that you can work on, together. Sometimes going to counseling helps. If there are a lot of situations, it doesn't have to be infidelity to rebuild trust. We can break trust in our marriage in a lot of ways.
And, so, if there is a trust issue there, whatever it is, that needs to be dealt with. Because if you don't trust someone, it's going to affect the way your relationship is, and how you frame them and look at them, and you may hold them at a distance. You may want to stay angry at them so that they can't hurt you again. I mean, all kinds of things like that.
And, so, it's really just taking the time to get into it, to have a conversation. If you're stuck, go to counseling, work on, "How can I rebuild trust? Okay, you don't trust me, I heard that. And, so, that's why I'm looking at you, as someone that just doesn't care about me. What can I do to rebuild the trust with you? What's a step I can do, and let me know then, 'Am I doing that well or not?' Because I want to do that."
And, then, beginning to pray together. Asking God to heal the areas that need to be healed, to reveal things that need to be dealt with, and to be a team in this. The two of you, where the framing started, and if there's going to be reframing, it's going to be pretty good if you both are involved in that, in some way and work together on that.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's good. It always comes back to communication. Have you brought this to them and let them tell you if your assumption is right or wrong? You've got to just be willing to open the conversation with communication, instead of blame, or anger, or something like that. That can change a lot, too.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Now, we have a video that Nancy and I do, each month, for our Marriage Changers, and we'd love if you guys could join that. But we were getting ready to video yesterday, with the questions, Nancy said, "We always come back to communication, don't we? No matter what the topic?"
And I said, "Yes, we really do." Because the heart of making a marriage better, is learning how to communicate and listen to each other well, and it's true. I think just every problem that comes up, you've got to communicate or it's not going to go anywhere.
Lindsay: Yes, that's true.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and so much of that is listening.
Lindsay: Yes, and just being willing to bring it up without accusation.
Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly, when I said, with the last question, calm conversation, it really is. Don't try to solve this when you are throwing things at each other. No, just wait and say, "Hey, can we sit down and talk about this tonight, after dinner? The kids are going to be doing their homework, we probably got an hour, can we talk about it then?"
Lindsay: Yes, that's good, it's a good place to start. So in your marriage with Nancy, how has reframing impacted it?
Dr. Kim: I think we've learned about each other. We talked about this yesterday in this video, and how we began to see each other as who we are, and who Nancy really is. And that she wasn't like anybody else I dated, I wasn't like anybody else that she dated. That we were really trying to see each other as we really are, and then to accept each other as we are. To quit trying to change each other.
Then as we would talk about things, we realized we just really wanted the same things in this marriage, we were just trying to get there in different ways. And, so, once we begin to identify some of those things, then, we were able to say, "Well, yes, okay, I understand why you're doing that. You're not fighting me; you're just trying to understand me."
That was one thing I really learned. I'd come up with something I'd talk about and I'd be excited about, and I thought she was just throwing cold water on it. What she was doing was trying to understand, so she could come along beside me.
It took a long time before I figured that out, and it made all the difference in the world because, then, instead of being frustrated with the questions she asked, I would answer them. And when I would do that, I would see her coming, she's 100% behind me. And, then, just continuing to ask God to help me see her through His eyes, that's always been a big thing.
The same thing we've talked about in the sex deal, of praying that my sexual desire is only for her. Just bringing God in those things, so that I'm focused on her the way God wants me to. His plan for marriage; not my plan, the world's plans, or our next-door neighbor's plan.
Lindsay: Yes, that's so good.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: Well, we've covered a lot of ground in this conversation, but do you have any final piece of advice about reframing?
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love this topic because it's so timely, today, in our culture. I think it's something that can make a huge difference in every single marriage.
So I just encourage you, as you listen today, take some time and just sit down and jot down all the adjectives you would put on your spouse, right now. And if they're all positive, awesome.
If they're negative, are they realistic? Are they something to deal with your spouse? How can you turn that negative into a positive? And begin to work on reframing your spouse as the gift that God gave, and Nancy is here to make me better. God used her to make me better. I fought it a lot, but in the end, looking back, you can see now, "Oh, my gosh, I'm such a better person by being married to her than I would have been without her." And how God used her in my life, and once you start seeing your spouse like that; you quit fighting them, and you begin to embrace that and thank God for it.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's so good. Yes, get on His page.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: Well, this has been a great conversation, and we are excited that later this week, we've got a bonus episode in honor of Veterans Day. We are so excited; we have Jen McDonald of Milspouse Matters on the podcast. Thank you so much for spending your time with us, today, on The Awesome Marriage Podcast. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage, today.
[00:39:58] < Outro >
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