Crack the Code to Better Connection In Your Marriage with Dr. Glenn & Phyllis Hill | Ep. 580

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

Dr. Kim: Hey, welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. I am so thankful that you joined us today. Today, our special guests are Dr. Glenn and Phyllis Hill. They've been married over 40 years. Together they created the Connection Codes that emerged out of their own relationship struggles, and a desire to understand and heal the disconnection that they experienced. So let's go to the studio right now.

Dr. Kim: I'm so excited, Dr. Glenn and Phyllis, to have you join us for Awesome Marriage Podcast. I love Connection Codes. I love what I'm learning about it. I love that you took the time to spend with us today. So welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast.

Glenn: Yes, thank you.

Phyllis: Wow, thank you so much, Dr. Kim. We are just thrilled to connect with more people and to share the message of the Connection Codes.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, so let's get right into it. How did this whole thing of Connection Codes come together?

Phyllis: Well, sadly, it started out of the pain of our marriage and we've been married 41 years, and we went into marriage thinking we had the foundation to have a great marriage. And the checklist, at least, that we created, we were able to check off all the things. And we really had even on our honeymoon, just right away, a big disconnection, and pain, and hurt, and just from there didn't know who to talk to. Got home from our honeymoon and we're just left feeling confused and abandoned in our marriage. And it was many years of struggle before we began to learn. 

Thankfully, I was married to someone who loves research, loves reading books, and I would say right away his heart was to figure this stuff out. And I was like, "I'm not reading it. I don't want to go down that road." I was just hurt and really stuck in that mode for a long time. But Glenn continued to read and explore ideas of different ways to communicate, different ways to connect sexually. It was a long journey, but when we started getting traction, we wanted to help other people and we wanted to share what we were learning. 

It took many years, but, eventually, Glenn went back to school and got his master's in marriage and family therapy. And, then, went on and got his doctorate in sexology and opened a private practice. So the actual connection codes came about more in the past decade or decade and a half, than the early part of our marriage.

Glenn: Yes, and we were just so clueless because 24 hours before our wedding, we were excited about happily ever after. 48 hours after our wedding, we were shell-shocked, like, "What in the world just happened?" And we just signed a 70-year contract, we didn't even know how long 70 years was. We were just clueless, "How could this be?" We did this on purpose, this was not an arranged marriage. It wasn't a shotgun marriage. We did it on purpose, and we're already wrecked. And, so, I read everything I could get my hands on. 

The second ten years of our marriage we, basically, learned how not to talk to each other. Because all of the books, all of the seminars said, "Well, just avoid trigger topics." Well, everything was a trigger topic for us. And by then we had children, so we're just focusing on the kids and we're basically living parallel lives. We lived at the same address, but we weren't really married, married. It was a legal arrangement, we just had no clue. 

Again, from lack of good intention, we did not intend to disconnect. It wasn't due to lack of effort, we were exhausted trying, literally. We would have many hours of conversation. I tried to always start those at 11:30 p.m. I thought that's a perfect time because I didn't have anything else scheduled then, so 11:30 to 3 that works out perfectly. 

Whereas this poor woman is thinking, "The kids are going to be up here in about three hours." And, literally, we did that, probably, many hundreds, if not thousands or more times. And there was so much wounding from that, so much even trauma, and we were just clueless. We had no idea. 

So we were intent on there has to be an answer to this. We're faith-based, we believe God designed marriage, and we're like, "What kind of bad joke is this? I mean, is God really that cruel, that God would set this thing up to be so awful? This is the worst practical joke, the worst scam, I've ever been a part of." 

I just couldn't believe that, and, yet, I knew that's what we we're living. And, then, as time passed, we looked around us, and we're like, "Oh, that's what most everybody else is experiencing, too." So how can this be? That we're experiencing all this horrific stuff that, allegedly, was designed by a God of love.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, and I love what you said, Phyllis, about going into it, you thought you had the foundation. You thought you had all the boxes checked. And so many of us go in, I don't think we'd probably say I do if we didn't feel like we had a bunch of them checked. And, then, the reality of marriage comes in, and we realize this is a lot more complicated than we thought it was. 

That's really good, and your experience mirrors ours in many ways of just those rough years. That just we had no idea what we were doing, causing pain to each other, like you said, Dr. Glenn. It causes pain and those wounds don't just heal overnight. 

And, so, the fact that you guys, I think, so many people can relate to that. Most of the couples I work with, I mean, I think, they all would say there's a honeymoon period, some may not. I've had some that on the honeymoon things went bad.

Glenn: That was us, yes.

Dr. Kim: And, so, we can identify with that, and I love the fact that you guys persevered. There's got to be an answer here. I love what you said about this can't be a cruel joke that God's pulling on us. This God that loves us more than we can imagine, there's got to be something here, that's awesome.

Glenn: And through it all, I mean, we cared deeply about each other. I wanted to be with her and I couldn't stand being with her. I used to tell her, "I feel like I have a big metal box in my chest and you're a magnet. So I'm drawn to you, but the closer I got, it felt like my chest is going to explode and all my guts are going to splatter on the wall." Because I was overwhelmed, I adore her and I can't interact with her at all, and it was so brutal.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's such a good guy visual "My guts exploding." I know every guy can relate to that. It's so true, it's how you feel. And you feel that pull one way or the other, "I want to be with her. I want to be close with her but when I am, it's not what I want to do."

Phyllis: I would say the early years of our marriage, we thought it was all logistical. It's like if we would just, logistically, sync up and move in the right direction, we would be happy and we wouldn't have conflict. So the way that looked in our marriage was if I would just fold the towels right, then, Glenn would be happy, and we wouldn't have a conflict. If I put the dishes away and lined everything up perfectly, then he would be happy and we wouldn't have a conflict, and I tried.

I mean, I was like, "Okay, if that's what it's going to take, then, I will try to do all the things that are important to you, and make sense to you, but don't make sense to me, but okay." And I really did, but we learned later on, with Glenn, that patterns are a big thing for him. And, so, everything had a pattern. I don't see the patterns; I don't function that way. And, so, it didn't resolve, it didn't keep the conflict out. So we were always focused on the logistics. Always trying to prove who's right, who's wrong. 

Even if we sat down with a therapist or some good friends, it was always talking through the fight, logistically. Like, "Well, who said what first?" And I remember thinking, back then that, "Oh, if we just had cameras all over the house that were, constantly, filming. Then, I could push replay and I could show you and prove that you said that first." Or "I didn't say it five times, I only said it twice." And we were constantly fighting about that.

And we thought that was the only answer was to prove who's right and wrong and, then, for the person who's wrong to apologize to the person who's right, and that makes you a happy couple. And we, I would say, danced that way for a long time, and we really thought that that was what it was all about. 

And, for us, we call it the dishwasher story. So if you read our book or you do any of our master classes, you will also hear this story because it was a huge turning point in our marriage. Where it was one of those days, that the things that happened had happened many times before. 

So I come into the kitchen, I'm going to fix dinner. I thought the dishwasher was full of dishes. So I wanted to unload them first, I open it and it was empty. Glenn walks through the room on the way to somewhere else, and I turn to him and I say, "Thanks, babe, for unloading the dishwasher." 

He turns and he gives me a snarky response, which was typical. He said something like, "Well, that's not the only thing I've done today." And usually I would just roll my eyes, and I would turn away, and keep doing what I was doing. But that particular day I, actually, turned around and I faced him, and out of curiosity, I said, "Babe, what happens for you when I say 'Thanks for unloading the dishwasher.' What do you hear me say?"

Glenn: Let me just say, Phyllis was not wrong in saying, "Thanks for unloading the dishwasher." There's no way we could say, "Well, it’s Phyllis’s fault that she said that to you, that's so offensive.”  So what we were missing, is that I live with one of the most productive people on the planet. She's perpetual motion. She gets more done in an hour than I do in a week. She lives with one of the lesser productive people on the planet. I'm fun to have around, but I struggle getting stuff done. So, for me, getting the dishwasher done was a big chore, a big task. 

When she would say that, it felt like she was making fun of me. Like, "Oh, wow, it's a miracle you did something useful for a change. Whoa, call the Internet, put it on the news. Let's have a celebration that Glenn did something worthwhile." Which none of that was happening for her. That's just what was happening inside of me. 

So we couldn't possibly blame Phyllis for that offensive thing, she said, "Thanks for loading the dishwasher." But Glenn also was not trying to experience what he was experiencing. I did feel wounded. I did feel hurt. I did feel pain. I did feel shame when she would say that. 

I always say, "I'm the educated one, Phyllis is the smart one." I do all the research and the hard work and then she, actually, figures out the things that matter. And all of the benchmarks in our relationship, over time, have been from things that she has figured out, and that was a big one. Where she slowed down, and she wanted to find out what happened with her partner. 

And, to this day, the phrase - what happens - is a really big thing, for us, and for connection coders, all over the world. For her to find out what happened for me. And for years, literally, years, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of times in those interactions, she would ask things like, "Why do you respond that way?"

"Why do you act like that?" And that would never connect us. 

And, many years later, we did actual research where we learned that, oh, of course that's not going to connect people, but we didn't know that at that time.

Phyllis: In that moment, what happened, for me, is that I realized this isn't logistical, this is deep inside of him. And what I learned, what he shared with me, was paragraphs of things that included his childhood and messaging he got in his childhood. That, "You're not good enough."

"You don't do enough."

"You screw everything up."

So the simple words of thank you for doing something had a completely different message for him. But I never knew that, and we were 20-something years into our marriage before we had that dishwasher encounter. 

And when I understood that there was a whole 'nother conversation going on, that I knew nothing about. For me, it melted my heart. It brought a ton of compassion to me that I'm like, "Whoa, no wonder when I say 'Thank you for unloading the dishwasher.' You don't just say, 'You're welcome.' Because that's not what you're hearing. You're hearing messaging that is so condescending."

That was such a huge turning point for us, that it led me down just a ton of curiosity. So when we would have an interaction after that, I would use that same language. If something didn't feel right, to me, or if he was responding in a way that didn't make sense to me. 

I would just get curious and I would go, "Okay, babe, hold on, what's happening for you? What are you hearing me say?" And it changed our interaction, and he began feeling safer with me, as far as sharing what was really happening inside of him. Which, of course, I couldn't see or hear because it was his experience.

Dr. Kim: Sure, I hear that so much in counseling where one spouse feels like the other doesn't hear them or, what you're saying, Phyllis, "If I had cameras and everything all around, you could see that I really did say or do what I said I did because you didn't see me, or hear me, or things like that." And it's just, over time, doesn't it just chip away at the marriage, at the relationship?

Phyllis: Oh, yes, so much wounding.

Glenn: Yes.

Dr. Kim: And it just continues to pile up that way. Kind of give us a nutshell explanation of what it means that our core need is identity. That's so important.

Glenn: Yes, well, again, I have to back up just a little because when we started doing this research, I'd opened my private practice. I'd gotten really discouraged and disillusioned. I sat with so many therapists who are like, "Yes, we don't really know what to do and how to do it. We just sit with people and meander through the forest and hope we can help them a little bit." 

And, then, I was experiencing the same thing because I'm like "Dang, I went through a whole lot of schooling, a lot of theories, but there's really not a whole lot of power in this."

So we just started doing research to say what happens for people, where they lose each other. And, so, the whole idea of when I don't feel seen, when I don't feel heard, when I don't feel valued. When I don't feel that I'm good enough, that I matter to Phyllis, I lose identity. I feel less valued. I lose my sense of self, such as with the dishwasher story, I lost identity. 

Because I thought she was making fun of me, which, again, she wasn't at all. This is not a criticism for Phyllis at all. I thought that she was saying, "Oh, well, you're less than, you are inferior. You are not good enough. You are not capable. You're not as good as me." So I would lose identity. I would lose the sense of self that I was valuable to her, or to the universe, or to God, and so I became desperate. 

One of the things we present in our master class is the still face experiment, that Dr. Ed Tronic did back in the '70s. Which has been replicated many hundreds of times. And when the baby loses the adult, the adult is still right there in front of them. So it's not a geographical absence, but it's a relational absence. And the baby loses the sense of self, loses the sense that, "I matter to this person." It's still the mom right there in front of the baby. Well, what's the baby so upset about? Well, the baby just loses identity and gets overwhelmed very quickly. 

So as we start observing interactions, relationships, and seeing that, and we say it's the number one fundamental foundational, most pressing human need. Because if I lose identity with someone, I'm about 10 seconds in and it gets pretty overwhelming.

Phyllis: With identity, I know with a faith-based community, often, the only way we've ever heard that word used is our identity is in Christ, and that is steadfast. But we also are affected by each other. And, so, that identity piece in relationships, all around us, is what it gets down to. 

I need to know, yes, that I exist. I need to know that you will be there for me and that I am good enough for you, and it's like almost put in a question form. If I get yes to those two answers, then, I know that I am in a relationship with someone who is safe, for me, and where I am not constantly losing a sense of myself. 

I think it's too easily misunderstood that we think that we can be, and, I mean, there's even statements where, "I'm a rock, I don't need anybody." Well, we were not designed for that. We were not created for that. We were created to be in community, to be in relationship with people. And, so, we have to figure this piece out. And when you simplify it and you go, "Oh, yes, wow, I lose identity every time I'm with my brother because he criticizes me. So, no, I want to be in relationship because he is my brother, and, yet, I always lose identity." 

And, so, it's an understanding of what happens in a relationship. And if we're just talking in marriage, there may be times when Glenn loses identity with me, and I don't even know it. I'm not aware that that is his experience, and it's that foundational piece. If we understand that, then, we can go, "Oh, wow, so whenever I criticize you and how you drive. 

Then you're losing identity about yourself, which affects the relationship." And I think that, especially, with working with couples, there are times where it's like, "Oh, yes, she criticizes my driving."

And then the partner responds, "Well, then become a better driver."

So there's this justification of your criticism. It's like, "Well, I'm just pointing out the obvious." Well, yes, but that person is losing identity. And, of course, it happens with our children, too. I mean, this is a big thing to realize that if we are constantly criticizing our children, they are losing identity. They don't feel that they exist in this family. They don't feel like they have value in this family. 

And as they grow older, they will go where they do feel that they have value, and they will go somewhere else for that. And, then, we wonder what happened to our kids, and we blame it on society, and we blame it on YouTube, or whatever. Instead, of realizing, "Well, actually, they've just lost a ton of identity in their home, their family of origin.

Glenn: Yes, and it's as simple as if I walk in a crowded room, and somebody sees me, and recognizes me, and says, "Hey, Glenn, come over here, sit with us." Well, I receive identity, I'm like, "Oh, okay, I matter here, I'm of value to these people." And, I receive identity, I feel that I'm important to them, and that's true for every human on the planet. 

We don't achieve identity, and you're not weak or bad, because that happens for you, that's true for everybody. If you walk in a room and somebody calls your name, you're like, "Oh, cool, I've been recognized. I have value to this person."

Dr. Kim: Yes, Glenn, you got so much in that last question. A couple of things I wanted to ask you a little bit more about. So I think the whole deal of the dishwasher example is a great thing, where you say one thing, Glenn hears another. And that whole idea of how we interpret what our spouse says is a big deal. What would you say to couples; how do you get past the negative interpretation? What can you do to begin to hear what your spouse is saying?

Phyllis: Yes, that's a great question, and it really played out in our story. When I got curious and said, "What happens for you?" It changed everything. So it's really a simple question, "What happens for you?" Or "What's happening? What am I missing?" It's like such an invitation for the other person and it happens with your spouse. 

But it's incredible, you see it with your children. You see it with your neighbor. You see it with co-workers. When you simply ask that question, so "What's happening with you? What am I missing?" They feel an invitation to share, and then you get behind the scenes. You get to, actually, find out what...

I mean, you think about all the encounters we have all day long. You may think that you're using a language that means the same for the other person, as it means for you. Just like, "Thank you for unloading the Dishwasher."

Well, you may go out throughout your whole day using that same language, and all these other people are interpreting it totally differently. And, so, when you get a pushback, it's so great to go, "Hey, what's happening with you?" And even in parenting, we tend to want to just correct the action and not find out what's happening behind the scenes. And you got to find out what's behind the scenes. That's how you deeply connect with humans, all around you.

Glenn: Yes, all of us have five neural regions that house emotions, that's true for every human on the planet. Every human on the planet breathes oxygen, nobody's breathing ice cream, or sawdust, that's just what humans do. We're all the same way. Every human is unique. We're incredibly complex, but we're also pretty darn simple. 

So there are five neural regions; in those five neural regions which are anger, fear, disgust, pleasure, and pain, are eight core emotions. We divide the pain region up and the disgust region up just because they present so differently. So every human speaks a language of eight words, as far as the core emotions. Every human on the planet knows what fear is. Every human on the planet knows what hurt is, knows what pain is, so this is a common language. 

Again, the point is not really what Phyllis said. The point is what happened for me in the process of that. And I can fuss at her all day long and say, "Well, you said, thanks for unloading the dishwasher, and that's not appropriate. You shouldn't say it like that." Well, that doesn't make any sense. Whereas if I just say to her, "You know, I get hit with shame when you say that because I feel less than. I feel incompetent."

Again, that's not her fault. We're not blaming Phyllis, "You said this horrific, evil thing." Not at all. We're just processing through what happens for the other, which happens to be Glenn, in that situation. This is what we did at birth, when we were six months old, 12 months old, 18 months old, every one of us is authentic all the time. We can say, authentically, at the core, pre-language, we do this. 

So we're coded that way, that's the reason we do this because we're coded, it's hardwired. We don't breathe oxygen by choice, we're just coded that way. That's what you breathe. So we're just trying to help people reactivate their coding, get back to their original, authentic self. And that's how people connect deeply, is when they were able to present the authentic self, and be present, and safe, for each other. 

And just, for the record, it blows our minds that this is even possible because we went through, literally, decades of disconnect, of pain, of even trauma with each other. And, well, first of all, we rarely ever disconnect, it's usually about three or four times a year. 

We used to have three or four disconnects for breakfast, and that blows our mind that that's even a thing. And our tense moments rarely ever last more than 30 seconds. And if you had said that to me 25 years ago, I would have thought you were making fun of me. Like, "You know, dude, you could process this through in 30 seconds."

I would have been like, "Shut up! This isn't 30 seconds’ worth, this is three-days' worth." That was our pattern.

Dr. Kim: Well, I think, too, Phyllis, the things that you said, it kept things from escalating. Because when you said that to Glenn, he says something back. I mean, you could have said something snarky, too.

Glenn: Which she did a few times.

Dr. Kim: I can't believe that-

Glenn: Like, "How is this possible that he doesn't just say, 'You're welcome?'" I mean, that's what you're supposed to do, and I didn't.

Dr. Kim: Yes, because I think we have trouble stepping out of that cycle of, "He says something, I say something." And just to have the language to say something different, and give the other person, the other spouse, a chance to be transparent, to open up, and, then, all of a sudden, you're getting somewhere.

Phyllis: Right.

Glenn: Yes.

[00:25:54] < Music >

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[00:27:28] < Music >

Dr. Kim: Let's take it farther into marriage. How it really impacts a marriage, the whole need for identity. Because you start out in marriage, I mean, I think, we both were fighting for our own identity, and trying to have that affirmed by the other person, and we had no idea how to do that. And most of the things we were doing, did just the opposite of what we were trying to do because we were so different like every other couple.

Phyllis: So true. And I also think there are outside things that affect us so much. If you're in a job situation, where you are losing identity all day long. Meaning, you don't feel like you even exist in this company or that no one is really there for you. You come home with that. You come home with a deficit, an identity deficit and you don't even understand what that is about. 

And, so, then, you are able to, if you have the language where you can just communicate to your spouse, "Wow, I felt such a loss of identity today." And your spouse can tune in and go, "Oh, wow, babe, what happened with that?" And then you can explain yourself, and you get on the same page pretty quick. And if you don't even understand that you're losing identity, you may just walk in the door and go, "Oh, I just hate my job."

Glenn: Which is logistical.

Phyllis: That's logistical. And your spouse is, probably, at that moment hit with fear, but she doesn't express that. She just says, "Oh, just choose joy."

Or "Be grateful you have a job."

Glenn: "You're going to be fine."

Phyllis: You're going to be fine."

Or "It'll get better." Well, then, you're actually what we call resisting the energy of your spouse. So then they feel hurt, they immediately respond out of hurt. Then, for them, it's also a lack of identity with you because you almost agreed with what everyone's doing at work. And, so, then, there's a disconnect that happens right then. That's the first few minutes of getting home from work. 

If I simply say, "What's happening with you?" We are going to have a good night. And it's like, "Well, yes, try it." And we simplify it by saying why versus what happens. So that's another thing that, through tons of research, we discovered that when you ask people, "Why did you say that? Why did you do that? Why didn't you do that?"

Glenn: "Why do you feel that way? Why do you act that way?"

Phyllis: "Why do you act that way?" Well, it does not connect. It may be neutral to some people, but most of the time we don't know the why. We'll instantly go on defense like, "Oh, I got to answer this correctly." And, so, it almost like you see people just pull away from each other, when the why question is thrown out in relationship. It works great with science and math, like, "Why are the stars so bright?"

"Oh, I can answer that."

But when it's relational, it feels like an attack. And, so, just take that out of your vocabulary, for 30 days, take that out, and put in "What happens?". So just like the dishwasher story, if I had said to Glenn, "Why do you not just say you're welcome?" Well, he doesn't know why. So that would not have gone well. Or if I said, "Why do you do this, every time?" Well, that wouldn't have gone well because he doesn't know why. But when I got curious and I turned towards him and I said, "Babe, what happens for you, when I say thank you? What do you hear me say?"

Glenn: Yes, and we said that - Why - is an accusation - what happens - is an invitation. Why indicts, what happens invites. So we're just inviting people into themselves, into their own experience. What we call the Ooh. We're going to ooh them; we're going to be present with them. There's a lot of research on that, too. And, again, all of these tools came through a massive amount of research. 

And, so, for example, we would encourage people, as she's sharing, just be silent, don't make a sound at all. And what the research showed, with brain scanning, was that, if he's silent and he could be totally tuned into her, but it tickles the pain center of her brain, it's a lonely experience. 

If he's audible, and the ooh is simply a label, so it's just something audible where he's going, "Oh, mh, okay, yes." It tickles the pleasure center of her brain. So simply being able to ooh changes the whole dynamic. I don't have to give her advice; I don't have to fix anything. I'm, literally, just making safe space for her, again, what Phyllis mentioned, following the energy. 

And, then, what we call the three phrases, the ooh is the first phrase. And, then, Phyllis says, "So, babe, what happens for you there? What am I missing?" The third phrase is - I missed it. So I'm just conveying to her that, "Could you help me get it?" 

Now I may not understand it, yet, because she hasn't explained it. But I can't sell that to her, I can't say, "Babe, you haven't made a bit of sense, yet, you need to explain that better." I can't sell that to anybody. Whereas if I say, "Could you help me get that? I think I'm missing something there." Now, I'm in a position of vulnerability, I need assistance. And we are coded, as humans, to help people who are in need, and so now she will do that. She will help me get what's happening for her, and now I'm caught up and we bond through that experiencing.

Dr. Kim: Yes, well, you're doing what God, I think, designed a husband and wife to do, is to be together, the two become one. I don't think God meant us to get married and fight for 50 years. And the example you gave of the guy coming home that hated his job. I mean, the different responses were so telling because the response of where the wife was fearful and how he expressed it, well, that's not going to help either one of them. Then he's feeling worse, she's feeling scared. 

But if he comes home and he says it in a different way, she hears it in a different way. All of a sudden he gets rejuvenated and if that job doesn't change, he knows "I can come home, that's my safe place, she gets me, and I'm going to walk out that door energized. They may beat me down again, but I know where my place is, and I can come home the next day, and say the same thing, and she's going to be there for me. I mean, our home should be that place for our safest place, next to God.

Phyllis: Well, and it helps so much when you understand the identity piece, you're able to go into situations. The way it plays out for me is, my family of origin I'm the baby of the family, and even though I'm 60 years old, I am still the baby of the family. And, often, when I am with my siblings, I lose identity because they don't really tune into what I'm doing in life. I'm kind of put right back in that place, so I lose identity. 

But when I figured that out, with my family of origin, I am able to go be with them, knowing I'm going to lose identity. And, then, I'm able to be in that situation and still have fun, and still experience joy in the moments of being with them. 

But for so long when I didn't understand that it was like I was fighting to be known. I was actually trying to be louder so that I would get some recognition. And, so, now, I go into those situations just really peaceful. 

Now, there are times, in my life, when my siblings get together, we all live very far from each other. And I choose not to go because I'm at a place where I'm like, "I already know how this is going to play out, and I'm actually a little bit too vulnerable, right now, and drained, from other things in life. And, so, I'm not going to go put myself in that."

So going back to the situation with a job, when you understand, "Yes, my boss still doesn't know my name. I've been here two years, and he still doesn't know my name. And I lose identity every time he walks by because, number one, most of the time he doesn't even speak to me, he doesn't acknowledge me." Then you, actually, know yourself better and then you're able to go, "But you know what, I love my job and I'm making great money, and so I'm going to stay here."

And, then, you can also go home and communicate it in a really healthy way. You're not taking it out on your spouse or your kids. You're actually going, "Yes, I lose a lot of identity with my boss because he doesn't know I exist. But, hey, I'm good because I love my job and it's great money." And, then, you're able to function in life. But if we miss that identity piece, it can really get us off track.

Glenn: Yes, and then when we get people down to the eight core emotions, that's a common language. And, so, for him to be able to say to his partner that, "I lose identity. I feel a lot of pain, a lot of shame at work. I never feel seen, I never feel good enough, I never feel valued there." 

And she's able to use the three phrases, and she goes, "Oh, so, babe, what else happening with that? What am I missing?" And he's able to process through that emotion. It's incredibly healthy for him, but, also, what the research showed, whenever I say to Phyllis, "I felt hurt with that." It tickles the pain region of her brain, and it becomes a shared human experience and we bond through that experience.

If I say to her, "Oh, that's so ridiculous." Well, she doesn't have a ridiculous region of her brain, so it doesn't do anything for her. Because that's [Inaudible 00:37:26] I'm describing this situation. And what the research showed is when we get down to core emotions, that's where people connect deeply. Because it's the common language, it's cross cultural, it's cross language, it's true for every human on the planet.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. So, Phyllis, I want to go back, for a minute, to the family of origin, and you figured out, "I'm going to be in the baby sister box the rest of my life, no matter what." But I love what you said is when, sometimes, you're invited and you say, "I'm not going to go." There are a lot of people that can't do that. How did you get to the point where you could say, "I'm not going to go?" Because I think that's so important.

Phyllis: Yes, thank you. For me, it was understanding all the research that we've done. But it helped me to understand, really, the identity piece. And it's like, "Oh, when I'm with them, I lose identity." Which has been true, really, my whole life. It used to cause huge conflict between Glenn and I. I, was always defending my family. He saw what was happening, as an outsider, but I was always defending them. "Oh, they didn't mean it."

"Oh, that's not who they are."

"Oh, you just don't understand."

And, one day, sadly, probably 20 years into our marriage, I feel like the lights were on, the curtain was drawn back, and I saw, for the first time, "You know what? You're right. In this family, I just don't have value. For whatever reason, I don't have value and I don't think they're going to be there for me." 

So that is the whole thing about identity. And once I figured it out, then, I was able to go, "Okay, wow, so because I know this now, I'm not going to keep trying to get that from them. They're not going to give it and I'm not going to try.

Dr. Kim: That is so good.

Phyllis: But they're my family of origin, so if I want to spend time with them, I'm going to know that I can choose that or I can choose not to. Because no matter what I do, it's not going to change that piece, that identity piece." Because I used to try to do everything to please them, to get that from them, and I wasn't, and it wasn't working. And, so, that's when I realized, "Oh, okay, I can choose to love them. I can choose to be in a relationship with them, but I know what I'm not going to get back, and that's okay for me."

Dr. Kim: Yes, and it also gives you the freedom to not have to please them by always saying yes and going.

Phyllis: Right.

Dr. Kim: It's okay, it's not going to make any difference. They're not going to change the box they've got you in because you say yes or no. Yes, I hope people can hear that because that's so important. Because family ties and families of origin can impact us in so many different ways, and that we don't have to stay stuck there. And, really, in a marriage, you got to have your identity individually and the two of you, separate from your family of origin.

Phyllis: Yes.

Dr. Kim: And, sometimes, it takes a lot of nos, maybe, to get there.

Phyllis: Yes, well, and even in speaking with marriage, if I am constantly losing identity with Glenn because I'm not good enough for him and he's not going to be there for me, no matter what. That is not the way we can survive life. That tears down at the core of who we are, and that is when we say, "You guys need to go get some help." 

Because he may be missing it not on purpose, not out of an evil intent. He just doesn't get it that you constantly lose identity around him, and you need good help to go, "Okay, let's talk about this" And being able to say that to each other, in a safe space. 

To be able to say, "I lose identity when you criticize everything about me, or you criticize my cooking. I just lose identity, and you don't seem to ever value my opinion. So I don't feel like I matter. I don't feel like I have any value in this family, in this marriage. Because you don't ever want to hear what I have to say." And those are some really basic things that happen in a lot of marriages.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I agree, one thing that I wanted to ask you, too. Do you have to agree with your spouse to really hear them? I mean, if your spouse says, "You hurt my feelings." But you don't think you did, do you have to agree?

Phyllis: So that goes back to, as Glenn was saying, so when we understand the core emotions and we understand that it's a language that we need to speak to each other. So if Glenn says to me, "I felt hurt by what you did." I can make space for that hurt, that doesn't mean I really did anything. So I'm not agreeing, I'm not accepting or taking on what he's blaming me for. I just want to hear his experience.

Glenn: Yes, and what the research showed us, the brain chemistry, if I say to Phyllis, "I felt hurt by what you said." I did feel hurt, emotions are not voluntary. We don't choose our emotions; emotions happen to us. We're responsible for the next action. We are not responsible for the emotion, it's just brain chemistry. 

So we don't even phrase things, I don't say to her, "You hurt me." I just say, "I felt hurt." did Phyllis contribute to my hurt? I don't know. Maybe 0%, maybe 18%, I have no idea. We call that the court case. We don't take it to court and get private attorneys and figure out, "Oh, well, Phyllis was 37% responsible." We don't know, how in the world do we prove that?

So, instead, I just say to her, "I felt hurt. I felt some pain whenever you said that." Well, we know that's true. So she can't disagree with me, "No, you didn't, you didn't feel pain."

"Well, I did."

"No, you didn't."

That doesn't even make any sense. I'm not blaming her; I'm not saying it's her fault that I felt pain. I just felt pain. Just like with the dishwasher story, when she said, "Thanks for unloading the dishwasher, I felt pain." 

Well, that's not Phyllis's fault, and because we're able to slow that down and recognize that, "Okay, well, that is what's happening with Glenn." It's not Phyllis's fault. Did she contribute to it? Well, she said the words, but it's not, in any way, to blame her that I felt hurt, but I did feel pain in it. And I'm just able to say that to her now, and we delete phrases like 'makes me', "You made me mad."

"You made me sad." 

No, I just felt mad, I just felt sad, I just felt pain. I did, I wasn't trying to I just did.

Dr. Kim: Yes, sometimes, we forget that God gave us all of our emotions. I think we think He only gave us happy, and joyful, things like that, but He gave us all of them. And, like you were saying, the red flags, for us, it's what we do next, is what makes the difference.

Glenn: Yes.

Phyllis: Yes, wow, that's so good.

Glenn: Well, Phyllis says, and I just love this, the last few months, she started saying that, "Emotions are text messages from God." So if I get fear, each core emotion has its own message, message of fear is danger, beware there's a risk of harm. 

That doesn't mean I don't jump out of the airplane. I just need to pay attention before I jump out of the airplane, that I have a parachute that works, that's strapped to my body, that I know how to operate. So, fear is helping me, fear is protecting me. Good, I'm glad that Glenn felt fear because, otherwise, I'd just jump out of the plane. I'm like, "Whoopee, this is so awesome." And pretty soon I'll be dead, and that's one of the Connection Codes' sayings is that, "A fear free person will soon be a dead person."

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, we need that. What if your spouse wants you to listen to their feelings? And I see so many couples with this and, usually, it's the guy, sometimes it's the woman, mostly the guy. But feelings are really hard for you. What would you advise someone like that?

Phyllis: Well, I was the person, in our relationship, I, for decades, said, "Oh, Glenn has enough emotion for both of us, I don't do emotion." Which I learned, I think, in my childhood, to be quiet and be productive. That's what was acceptable in my family, and it was praised. And, so, I did not even understand that my brain houses emotion. I was 50 years old before I learned the science. And, of course, it's like, "You mean God created me this way and all of us have emotion?" I could not believe it. 

So, often, if a spouse says, "Well, I don't do emotion."

Or "I don't do well with feelings." Okay, you did when you were 12 months old, you did when you were a baby. So something got you knocked off course. Something changed this for you. And, so, it's time to learn it again. You need to learn what is happening for you. You need to tune in to what your brain is trying to tell you. 

And, so, this core emotion wheel that we created and people can get by downloading it, actually, we have that, especially, for your listeners. But it's a fun, simple, way to get all eight core emotions, and then to be able to express them to each other. It starts with yourself, you've got to be able to tune in and go, "Well, what is happening for me?" Because I want to know me to be able to communicate to him what's happening. 

We're familiar with terms like, "Well, I just feel so overwhelmed."

Or "I'm just so stressed out." Well, that's not a core emotion. And, so, it's not getting it out of our bodies. We just keep storing the emotions in our bodies, and it doesn't help your spouse to understand you. He may assume he knows when you say, "I'm so stressed out." He may assume he knows, but he doesn't know, she doesn't know, and you might not know yourself. 

Where it's like, "Okay, well, what's happening with the stress? Let's talk about the core emotion." And for all of us we're different in what, maybe, what we would define as stress. So it's such a powerful tool and a simple tool. It only takes two minutes for yourself, four minutes, together, to go around and express what's happening with you.

Glenn: Yes, what we're doing is people are exercising their emotional muscle. For many of us, our emotional muscle has atrophied so much. If you asked me, 25 years ago, "Glenn, how often do you feel shame?"

I would have said never because I didn't even recognize it, I had no idea. So in reality, I was drowning in shame, but I didn't even know that because I didn't recognize it. Now, I recognize it in the moment, process it in 10 seconds. Which, again, blows my mind, I can't believe this is even possible. 

Because 20 years ago, I would not process shame in a day and a half. I didn't recognize it, number one. Number two, I didn't know what to do with it. So we're just getting people to exercise their emotional muscles, so that this afternoon, Glenn is able to say to Phyllis, and for himself, he goes, "Oh, what just happened to me? What did miss?"

"Oh, I felt hurt, babe, I just felt some hurt."

She does the exact same three phrases. She goes, "Oh, wait, what happened with hurt? What did I miss?"

"Well, I felt hurt a minute ago, when you said that thing." And I process through the pain, and, then, she gets to the fourth phrase, she goes, "So what do you need?" And I'm like, "Nothing, really, I just need to convey it to you. I need to process it through with you." And we're 20 seconds into this interaction. It's been processed, we're actually more bonded now than we were 25 seconds ago. Which I think reflects the genius of God, that that's even possible.

And, so, now we're kind of glad that Phyllis hurt Glenn. Because now we're actually more connected because she was safe for me and I was able to sit through with her, and it's very connecting.

Dr. Kim: So much better than fighting over it, or stuffing it, or any of those other things. Yes, I love it, 20 seconds and you move on, but you've dealt with it. Which is so important.

Phyllis: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So I don't know that I've ever had a couple where they both were verbal processors. It seems like one is, one isn't. I may not be thinking of it, but that seems to be the deal. So I can see, sometimes, the one who's the verbal processor is talking. And I can look at the other one and I can see eyes glazed over, mind going somewhere else, trying to look at their phone without being caught. 

So what do you do, if you're married to someone who's a verbal processor? But how can you listen without getting overwhelmed by all of this, or just being what you need to be for your spouse, in that moment?

Glenn: For Phyllis and me, she was not a verbal processor, but she was when she was a baby. And, so, something funky happened along the way that she got knocked off course. Now, she's incredible at doing that because she got reactivated, her coding got reactivated.

Dr. Kim: I think we complicate the way God made us a lot. And I think God made us with things, that I don't think He was trying to trick us or to make us whatever. He just wants us to trust Him and trust the way He made us. And this is such a great way of expressing things that are so important to us, and that's our emotions. 

I think in our culture; we just don't take time a lot. We may be scared of them, "Well, I don't have time for that. I got to pick up the kids. I got five kids I got to pick up. I got to practice this and that. I got to fix dinner, we got to do homework, and all that. When in the world I have time to think about my feelings." But it's worth it, and it's even going to make your whole life better.

Glenn: Yes, in reality we don't have time not to because if I don't know what's happening with Phyllis, I'm going to fill in the blanks because I'm a smart guy. And, so, I'm going to fill in the blanks with eleven different things. Like "She probably regrets marrying me."

"She wishes she'd married that guy from high school."

And, so, now, I don't feel close to her. And, so, now we are a lesser version of this couple, and now my mind is going crazy, like, "Oh, my gosh, why is she so mean to me? I've been so loyal to her." And we're going to have a lot of burden from that, so we don't have time not to do this. And the research shows that we actually multiply the hours in the day, whenever we've processed through the emotion, we become smarter versions of ourselves.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, that's so good. So I was trying to think of some things, like if couples are listening and they get excited about this and they do it. I'm sure it's not going to go perfect, you're going to have some bumps, just like anything else you're trying to implement. So if couples are in this are working on it, but the emotions are high, they're not thinking straight, "We know what we'd need to do." How do we get out of those old habits and continue to pursue the new things? That even though we know it's going to be better; how do they get back on track?

Phyllis: Well, sometimes, it helps me to think about it in other parts of my life. Just like I know me getting outside and walking every day, is really important to my overall health. Getting in the sunshine, breathing fresh air, for me, that is a personal daily goal, and I get off track. And, so, then, I just remind myself, "No, this is really important." 

And I love my son is one of my big cheerleaders, and he'll go, "Mom, five minutes, just do it for five minutes." Because I think if I can't do it for 30 or an hour, it's not worth doing it at all. So five minutes, "Just get outside, Mom, for five minutes. Walk down to the mailbox and back, five minutes." 

And I think with this simple tool that we've created, it's a four-minute tool. Not even five minutes, it's a four-minute tool to go, "Oh, we're going to just start doing this one thing every day. We'll do it at breakfast, we'll do it at dinner. We'll do it right before bed with each other." Four minutes, you will start activating that emotional muscle, if you simply commit to something as simple as this. 

We have master classes, we have a book, we have a private practice, we have a podcast, you could dive in. Some people do this whole immersive, "Let me get it all." Other people are like, "Let me start with four minutes. I can handle one thing, one change, four minutes." 

Absolutely, start there, start with the four-minute tool and learn this about yourself, "What's happening with me?" And, then, being able to share it with your partner is so huge. And, then, you start to go, "Wow, this really works, and this is not complicated, and it's only four minutes." And, then, you start building traction. Like, "Wow, we're communicating better. You're listening to me better. I feel better."

And, so, then, you go, "Okay, let me learn a little bit more." And then you take the second step. And what I want to make sure we communicate is how your listeners can get this. So we want them to be able to download the wheel, which is very important and they can print it off, or they can just leave it on their device. And if they go to connectioncodes.co/awesomemarriage, they will get their own core emotion wheel. They'll get the directions, they'll get a video of us doing the core emotion wheel, so that they can just start implementing this one thing. 

Now, you may have listeners that are like, "Oh, no, I want to do the whole immersive thing." Well, then, we have 20% off for them, if they just put in AWESOME20, then, they will get that 20% discount. If they want to jump into one of our master classes and be a little bit more immersive, we just love this opportunity. We're so thankful to be able to talk through and answer these questions with you.

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, it's so good. I was just thinking when you say four minutes, that's a commercial in a football game. We've got four minutes to start. We don't have to totally binge-watch five episodes of something one night. We can find four minutes and it's a useful four minutes. I love what your son said about, "Get out there for five minutes, Mom, because that's going to do you good." Do this for four minutes because it's going to do you good.

Phyllis: Yes.

Dr. Kim: And I think it's just like anything, it makes so much sense, and it does, definitely, tie in with the way God made us and wired us. Why not give it a chance?

Phyllis: Yes, absolutely.

Glenn: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: So, last question, what are you loving about your marriage today? You've kind of hit on it with a few things. But what are you really loving about it, today?

Phyllis: I think, for me, because we had so much trauma in the early years, which your body remembers. For me, it is that I can, actually, convey what's happening, for me, and it doesn't cause conflict. And he can convey to me, he has now the way to say, "I felt hurt by what you said." And I don't have to go into a deep despair over it, we don't have to argue over it. And, so, I love our connection now, and that even though we've had tons of trauma in our marriage, that we can now talk to each other in a way that is so connecting.

Glenn: Yes, I feel like we can't go through the whole podcast without, at least, mentioning sex.

Phyllis: Mhm, there you go.

Glenn: Now, we'll have to do a whole 'nother podcast about that, Dr. Kim. But it's just amazing, to me, I mean, I'm 62 years old, and we're starting to get good at this. We've just a dynamic sexual connection, and that's built on top of deep emotional connection. Well, we didn't have emotional connection, at all, for so many years, so sex was just kind of an activity. 

We were involved physically, we even made some babies, but there wasn't really sexual connection. And to now experience the level of dynamic sexual connection, it's beyond. I don't know, we've run out of words and superlatives because it's a level that I never thought, I never knew existed. And I, certainly, never thought that it was possible, for us, because we had so much wounding early on, now to get to experience what we experience.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I kind of think it's what Adam and Eve, probably, had before the fall. Because they were transparent, they didn't have any clothes on. they were just themselves, and I think they didn't have all that baggage that we carry around. 

And, so, eliminating that baggage, and connecting, and building that trust. Because the best sex is when we're vulnerable, when we're honest, when we're open with each other. When there's nothing, there are no walls, or hills, or anything between us. Just to be able enjoy the sex relation like God created it, which is so good. 

Phyllis: So good.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. So let us put it all together of where the listeners can find you. We've got the codes; those will be in the show notes. That's awesome, thank you guys, so much, for doing that for our listeners. I know they're going to love having that opportunity. Where else can they find you?

Phyllis: Well, we're all over social media, so, The Connection Codes is definitely out there. And, then, also, we have a podcast called The Connection Codes, and they can find us there. But we're on YouTube, we're on all the different podcast channels, so our stuff is out there. But if they just start with this one connecting point, connectioncodes.co/awesomemarriage they'll get into it and they'll start.

Dr. Kim: They'll see things.

Phyllis: Yes, they'll see things.

Dr. Kim: That's awesome. You guys, thank you so much for the time today, for the work that you've done on this. The research and how God has helped you guys bring it together, in a really simple way, to help people make their marriages better, to connect better. Thank you for the work you've done on that, and for your time, today. Thanks, guys.

Glenn: Thank you.

[00:59:10] < Outro >

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