How to Handle Deployment & Milspouse Encouragement with Jen McDonald | Ep. 582

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationships.

Dr. Kim: Well, Jen, welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. Thank you so much for saying yes, and being here today. I'm excited about this. I know it's going to help so many people. So thanks for being here.

Jen: Well, thank you so much for having me. It is, absolutely, my privilege, my honor, I just think the work you're doing is so incredible. So I was very honored to even be asked to come on. So thank you for having me.

Dr. Kim: Well, thank you. Today is also a big day for you, the day we're recording, your newest book comes out and this is launch day. Tell us just a little bit about it.

Jen: Well, it is an exciting day, it is called Milspouse Matters: Sharing Strength Through Our Stories. And it's sharing stories of military spouses, across the generations. Widows from the Korean and Vietnam era that I was privileged to interview at the Air Force Enlisted Village, where they live, and then modern day spouses. So about 17 different stories. And, then, a whole lot of my own story. So kind of a behind-the-scenes peek into military life. And the goal is to strengthen, encourage, give hope to today's military spouse that they can do it too. They're not alone. 

And, so, many of the experiences we share are so similar, across the generations. Things that the widow said, from the Vietnam era, are the same things we're going through now. It's just different technology, different time.

Dr. Kim: Sure. But I'm excited for you on that. I know that's going to help a lot of people, too. We relate so well to other people's stories. It's encouraging and it helps us, and, certainly, it helps us know that people made it through some things that we're going through, at that time. And, so, I'm excited for you about that.

Jen: Oh, thank you. 

Dr. Kim: Let's just jump in, and you tell us a little about your background and your experience as a military spouse.

Jen: Well, I grew up in New Mexico, near an Air Force base, and I had friends whose parents were in the military, but I really didn't have any idea what that meant. It seemed like people that came to that base, kind of homesteaded, is what it was called, they'd be there for years. So I thought it was just another job. 

And, so, I met my husband at church, the summer after my senior year in high school. I was going to leave for college to this Christian college in Oklahoma. He was at his first assignment there and we met, and I just thought, "This is something different." I don't even know how we knew; we were so young. And, so, I changed my plans, went to school locally. We got married my second year of nursing school. We were little bitty babies, we were 19 and 22. 

Dr. Kim: Oh, my gosh. 

Jen: And, so, here we are 35 years later. We lived all over the world, we had 13 different assignments.

Dr. Kim: Wow.

Jen: We raised four kids, went overseas and back multiple times. Went through deployments, including Iraq and Afghanistan, kind of weathered all of that. He served in the Air Force for nearly 32 years. 

Dr. Kim: Wow. 

Jen: I was an RN, and with all the moves, I ended up becoming a stay-at-home mom because we had all these kids. And, then, a homeschooling mom, of all things, which I never thought I would do. And then really started writing and freelancing about 20 years ago, and just completely morphed, different career. I work in content editing, obviously, podcasting and writing. So who I was when I was 19 is very different than who I am now, as we all are, right?

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Yes, we got engaged when Nancy was 19.  So we look at 19 year olds now, and that's nothing negative, at all, against them, we're thinking, "What were we doing?"

Jen: Exactly. Or my own children, I'm going, "Ah, you're too young."

Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly, it's the same way. So you were young, as a new wife, then, did you feel prepared for the life you entered as a military spouse? I mean, was it just all new?

Jen: I was absolutely clueless. I thought my little airman husband was the best thing in the world. I thought he was incredible, but that was, like I said, a job. And, so, I mentioned that some of the families we knew stayed and stayed. So the first time he got orders, so I'd grown up in New Mexico, grandparents, extended family, it was to Ohio. Which he might as well have dropped me off the end of the earth because I didn't know anything about it. 

And, so, he came home and he said, "I have orders."

And I said, "Well, maybe next year. Why don't you ask them, maybe, next year?" I, literally, had no idea how the military worked. I talk about this in my book a lot because I just was so clueless. And he goes, "That's not how it works." And, so, I was, actually, pretty miserable that first move, and we can talk about that more, just what helped me transition. 

But I, literally, did not know what military life meant, what it would mean. And, also, with him being in the Air Force, at that point, it was the '90s, they weren't really deploying unless you were in certain career fields. He, certainly, was not. And, so, once 9/11 happened and all those things, it really did change. I think a lot of military families have the before 9/11, after 9/11, if they were in at that time. It completely changed everything and everything in our lives.

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm, wow, that's amazing. So let's talk about that. How did you navigate that initial transition? You moved away from family for the first time, ever?

Jen: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So your first was going to be to college, and you didn't do that, and now it's Ohio. So how did you get through that?

Jen: Well, we rolled into Ohio in January, it was freezing cold. I had never been so cold; I'd grown up in the desert Southwest. And, honestly, I will be honest that I completely leaned into the misery. I was so homesick. I thought, "If I keep looking back, if I hang on to this, maybe, we can go back." 

I think there was some part of my mind, "Maybe I could go back." And it's not realistic, of course, and a big reality check came. My husband realized how homesick I was and, probably, a couple of months into our move. He just asked me, very bluntly, "Do you just want a one-way ticket home?" And that was a big reality check. It was not said with any malice; he didn't know what to do.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Jen: And, so, being so young, by this point, I was about 21. Because he had stayed in New Mexico for a couple of years, and then we had moved. I just knew that I had to make a change or I was going to lose my marriage, and that was a big wake-up call, for me. And I look back and I'm still astounded that we knew if we didn't cling to the Lord, and really cling to each other, we were not going to make it. 

And, honestly, probably, moving was the best thing that could have happened. Because I don't know that we would have made it through if we had had all of this family, and friends, and support, to fall back on. Which sounds a little backwards, but, for my personality, us leaving was, probably, for the best.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's amazing. Where was your husband from?

Jen: He was from Georgia.

Dr. Kim: Was he in a military family, at all?

Jen: His dad was in the army, so he was retired army. So he had a better feel for what it entailed.

Dr. Kim: Yes, than you did, but you just walked in and had no idea what was getting ready to happen.

Jen: No. And I would love to say-

Dr. Kim: But I think that... no, go ahead.

Jen: I would love to say I just bloomed where I planted right away, and I just did not. It was a process. So if anybody's listening and they are going through that, that's very normal.

Dr. Kim: Especially, when you grew up, like you did, in the same place, all the time, and people that you loved, and loved you, and trusted. But that decision you made is something I see other people have to make, for different reasons. But, at some point, you got to make that decision, "Are we going to make this work? And if we are, we got to put God in the middle of it because we don't really know what we're doing. We're just saying, 'We're going to make it work.' And I'm not going to take that one-way ticket back."

Jen: Right, it was tempting, for a moment, then I just looked at him, and he was so hurt. And, so, we were just, both, kind of, lost in realizing, and it didn't happen overnight, it was a process, for sure. Growing together and realizing the marriage needed to be a priority. We needed to plug into community. I needed to find some friends, he could not be everything and everyone to me, and that was part of the problem. That is a lot of pressure, and nobody can be that for their spouse. 

And, so, I had to come out of my shell, and realized I had to figure out how to meet people. We needed to find a community for me. In fact, the first women's thing I ever went to, he drove me and he sat in the foyer waiting for me. I walked, and I just wasn't used to having to make friends or put myself out there. 

And, so, I was at this big church, at this women's event. So he's sitting in the dark foyer just waiting for me, and people kept saying, "Who's that guy sitting out there?" And I, finally, was like, "It's my husband." Because I had told him I wasn't going to go unless he came with me. And it seems so crazy now because that is so not who I am at all, but little 20-year-old me just...

Dr. Kim: Well, and I just think of it from a husband standpoint. For him not knowing, like you said, what to do, and seeing his wife suffering, and being empathetic, yes, that had to be hard on him. And just to even give you that option because you could have taken it, and he didn't know that when he offered it. So that was a big step for him to even do that. 

But that had to say a lot to you, too, that he was willing to let you go if that was what's going to be best for you, and that says a lot for him. But it also says a lot for what God can do, when we put Him in the middle of a situation like that.

Jen: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So let's talk a little bit about times of deployment or extended travel. How do you guard your marriage and keep it a priority, during deployment? When I work with couples where there is deployment, that is such a big issue. So give us some ideas and some thoughts.

Jen: Well, communication is key, and then, a lot of times, you don't have those normal channels of communication that you would think you have. Because people say, "Well, you have video chat now, you have FaceTime, you can Skype, you can do whatever." Well, not always, because it just depends on where they're deployed. 

I know spouses whose husbands go on submarines and they don't hear from them for weeks or months. Then when they surface, they'll get a flurry of emails, or some of the places my husband was assigned. I might get a call once a week and then it would get cut off, where screens would freeze. And, so, you just have to figure out different ways to communicate. 

And, so, for me, what we did was I would send him a running email. I would email him, at the end of most days, just to fill him in on what had happened, so I wouldn't forget what the kids did, and he loved it. Because when he had time, he could sit, and he didn't always answer every single one, but I knew it meant a lot to him. Sending regular mail, care packages, that sort of thing. Sending notes, I would put notes in his luggage when he would leave. 

There was a time period, the last decade he served, he was really gone more than he was home. And it wasn't just deployments, it was TDYs, and, so, he would leave me notes. I would put notes in his bag or whatever for him to find. Which sounds a little silly and simple, but it really does mean a lot because it shows that you're thinking of each other, for sure.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Jen: Another thing I would say is talking about your spouse to others, and talking about what you like about them, keeping them at the forefront. Because I believe, for me, the temptation was, which sounds crazy after my story that I couldn't even go to a women's meeting by myself. You get into this cycle of being so independent, making decisions, forgetting to check in because you have to. You don't have a choice if you're going to make it in this military spouse life. So just keeping them at the forefront, remembering that you're still in a partnership. 

I had friends who had never met him. It was like this mythical figure because he was never there to come to kids' stuff at certain locations. He was missing all the soccer games, recitals, and it's like, "Yes, sure, you have a husband." And people that need to know, especially, other military families, totally get it. But it's just, "Yes, I still have this spouse and they're still important in my life." And keeping them at the forefront. So I found that talking about him to others was a big thing that helped. 

And, also, I would say, as far as guarding your marriage, keeping it a priority, is walking a mile in each other's shoes. It can be so easy to start to compare misery and to feel like you've got it harder. And I would think "He hasn't been able to hug his kids for a month." I don't have to do that. I don't know if I could do that. And, so, just that walking a mile in each other's shoes and extending a lot of grace really is significant. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Other wives that you talk to that are in the similar situations. Do you see any things that are really common issues that everyone faces, every wife faces?

Jen: As far as deployment goes? 

Dr. Kim: Yes, during deployment.

Jen: I think something that surprises people, I was thinking about this this morning, is this pre-deployment argument. Because you get to this point and you feel so guilty for arguing. They're about to be gone for months, or even a year, or whatever, and possibly in danger. And you hit this point where you're like, "Let's get going already, so we can start the countdown. Let's just get this over with." 

This leading up to leaving, that is part of the toughest part to me. And you'll end up pulling aside, maybe, isolating, not intentionally, but just emotionally starting to pull back because you know it's coming.

One thing I've heard from so many people and once you voice it, you start to realize other people, they're going through it, too, you'll have conflict come up. Because I think it's part of putting up this wall of leave because you love them so much, and you want to avoid some of that hurt. 

So I feel like a lot of spouses go through that, maybe, some conflict while they're gone. It's unexpected because you feel guilty, like you don't want to have an argument with your spouse when they're in the Middle East, or someplace, and things come up. 

And, so, I would just say don't use phone calls to handle conflicts, maybe, work those out over text or email. You may have just these really brief calls, and just use that to just say you love each other and let the kids talk, if you have kids. 

Dr. Kim: Sure, just connect, use that time to connect and not solve the problems.

Jen: Exactly, because you're not going to in that little space of time.

Dr. Kim: Because you're not going to, anyway. So when he would be deployed and you'd be there with the kids. Were there things that you didn't share with him because he was deployed?

Jen: I think one of the things that is important is while they're deployed, putting extra stress on them pulls them from the mission. So you have to be really selective. So if it was something significant, I would, probably, email it to him and just be like, "Give me some input on this when you have time." And maybe he wouldn't have time, I typically tried to handle most things. 

There was one scenario, he was in Afghanistan and we had been stationed in Germany. We stayed in Germany because he was going for a year, and we knew he'd have a new assignment after this Afghanistan tour. 

And, so, there was just no point in moving and then moving again, and leaving the military family support because we lived on base, and our kids were all plugged in. And I got pneumonia, this winter. Both of our cars broke down, and I'm just trying to handle it by myself because we had teenage drivers and I didn't tell him. And he called, one day, and my son's like, "Well, Mom's in bed sick."

And he goes, "What?"

And I get on the phone and he said, "Would you please ask the neighbor for help?" Because fixing a car, overseas, is not straightforward. He said, "He can help you. He can go get the part, he can deal with the off-base mechanics." And I was so stubborn, and I finally just hit the end of myself where I had to.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

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Dr. Kim: What about, I don't know what you call it re-entry, when he came back-

Jen: Reintegration?

Dr. Kim: Yes, reintegration. What is that like? Because I know you and the kids, probably, you've gotten your routines, you've gotten your deals, and, all of a sudden, husband/dad is back in the house. How does that go?

Jen: Mh-hmm, well, there is always this honeymoon period because you're so happy to be back together. And then you hit this point where they're questioning, "Why did you do it this way?" And, then, you're getting annoyed because their socks are on the ground and not in the hamper. And it's like those little things creep up and it can be surprising. 

I would say it's not like the movies, it's not like TV, you have that happiness of being back together. And, in fact, there are a lot of ways it's depicted, that military spouses call reunion porn. 

Because it just plays on people's emotions and it doesn't show the reality of what the family really goes through after that big, surprise, homecoming. Which can be great, but real life has to happen now. 

And, so, people are like, "Oh, they're home okay, everything's good." 

And it's like, "Well, maybe, not so much, we're adjusting." Especially, after a year apart that's a huge adjustment.

Dr. Kim: That's a long time.

Jen: It is a long time. After his last deployment, I remember being on the phone with him, he had flown out. He was, I don't even remember, in Qatar, or someplace, about to head home. And he'd been over 20 years, by that point, and we were a little smug. 

We were like, "We've got this, we know what to look for. We've got this down." And, to my surprise, we had some issues, and it just proved to me every deployment is different. You've changed, they've changed, you've both been through things that you may not ever know about. There are still things now that he'll mention about a deployment, and I'll go, "You've never told me about that." 

And so, again, just that grace of extending grace and expect it to be a little rocky, because then you won't be surprised if it is, and if it's not, great. But most families have that adjustment, that reintegration period.

Dr. Kim: I think so, I agree. What about the kids? Did you see anything in them during times of deployment, and dad coming back and leaving, how it affected them? Any wisdom you could give, as a mom, how to handle that with your kids? And you had four, which probably were all different, maybe, in the way they handled it.

Jen: Absolutely, and they're all grown now, they're in their late 20s and early 30s. Things have come up now that I didn't even realize was an issue. So, again, it just depends on the child, just like it depends on the marriage. I felt like each deployment, one of them would really have a hard time. 

And, so, maybe, the other ones felt like, "Well, maybe, I can't because this one's falling apart." Or they were very protective of me, especially, my older two sons. I see that now, that they were trying to be protective of me and, maybe, I shouldn't have let them do that. They were teenagers, on the last one, they were like senior and junior in high school, but you just do the best you can.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Jen: I think with the kids, there are so many really good resources, I can recommend a couple. There's a organization called Comfort Crew for Military Kids, which I highly recommend. They send little care packages to the kids. Trevor Romain, is this amazing speaker that connects with kids, and he travels all around and does these big, not conference,

 but gatherings at school, like assemblies or whatever, at military bases. And if you have that come to your base, send your kid or connect with them. 

There are just so many supportive agencies for kids now. And then there's free counseling through a Military OneSource. If you see that your child is struggling, they may not want to tell you what it is because they don't want to add more stress. 

So you can get Military and Family Life counselors at every base, it's free, it's confidential. You have a certain number of sessions you can do. So I highly recommend seeking outside help and not trying to do it all on your own because it's a lot, it's a lot to try to. And I would tell my kids, "I don't know what this is like to have your parent deployed, especially, if they're in danger." He was in Iraq and Afghanistan, they were terrified. 

Dr. Kim: He was in danger. 

Jen: I had to turn off the news. I had to remind even some extended family, "Please don't bring up what you just saw. I will tell you this, when we were in Germany, there was one time I was talking to him, we could hear a rocket attack in the background, and the line cut off. And, so, I'm sitting up all night waiting to hear, "Was he okay?"

There was another time, we were driving home from the commissary. I had two of my children in the car. And, so, Armed Forces Radio, Armed Forces Network, was the only radio for English-speaking military families, and they cut in with this live thing that Kandahar, which is where he was, was under attack, and I nearly drove off the road. 

He was not a combat position, was he was command chief, he was helping troops. He was traveling a lot, but he was not a combat troop. But we knew they're out and about, they're outside the wire, there's always danger. 

And, so, I hear his base is being attacked, and one of my girls just burst into tears. I just pulled over on the side of the road, and had to get myself together, and we all prayed, and went home. I think, it took over a day for me to hear from him, that he was okay, and that was not a good day. Let's just be honest

Dr. Kim: Oh, man, I bet.

Jen: Yes, so they've been through a lot. And, I think, now, I wish that I would have, maybe, connected them with more outside people because I felt like they were doing okay for the most part. We had really great pastors, and they had really great youth leaders that stepped in to fill those gaps, and I was so grateful for that. In hindsight, it's 2020, with your kids, you always think you can do something better.

Dr. Kim: Exactly. I think I love that you said that there are resources there, and to take advantage of those. Don't try to put all of that on yourself. And with kids, I think, some kids you know something's going on, and other kids you just don't because they don't talk about it. 

They just don't show it, so to have those resources and to use them is really good. Those two instances, you said, had to be pretty scary and difficult to go through, for sure.

Jen: Right, and we knew there's no guaranteed outcome because we had known people that had been killed, or an active-duty that had died, so you don't know. You can't even tell your kids, "Oh, it's going to be okay." You just don't know. That's a whole level of trusting God of, "Whatever happens, you're going to be there with us."

Dr. Kim: True, and the kids, they don't know either. You can't tell them something just to make them feel better. You got to help them deal with the reality, depending on their age and what's age-appropriate, I'm sure, like that. Anything else that, you can think of, that you feel really helped your marriage those times when you were separated. When there was limited communication or no communication, you mentioned times that that could be there. What helped you during those times?

Jen: I think having a really strong faith community. People in my life that checked on me that could sense when I was not doing well, and I had friends that would compel me to come over, and I didn't want to. I would have rather stayed home. And, so, that was huge for me, and the military community is so supportive, especially, if you're living on base, people just get it. 

I think for Steve and I, a lot of times, we'll pick a book, or a book of the Bible, or a Scripture to memorize together. You're not going to do it together, but you're separate, and then you can come back together and talk about it, even if it's not until after the deployment. But you know that they're also reading or dwelling on the same thing as you are, that's really helpful. Knowing that you're praying for each other every day, and that's huge. 

I mean, if you're not getting up and getting in the Word and praying every day, as best you can. That is huge just for mindset and giving those fears to the Lord because it's not easy. It's not an easy time, even if they're on, quote, "Just a deployment" where maybe it's not a war situation, it's still a separation, it still something, it matters.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and just acknowledging that, "This is something that is affecting us; and what's the best way to handle it?" I love that you said that about reading the Bible, or maybe Bible plans together, or something. Where you're reading the same thing and you know that Steve's reading the same thing you are, and that you, maybe, can communicate through email or when you talk about things like that. 

I think God just uses that connection and praying for each other, that you feel something there, and you feel God's presence. And, no, God's not telling you that everything's going to be perfect. But you do know that He's there and how important that has to be.

Jen: Yes, prayer is so powerful. 

Dr. Kim: It is.

Jen: I mean, it really is. It just makes things happen that are unexplainable and it does connect you.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.

Jen: How can you be mad at somebody you're praying for? 

Dr. Kim: Well, I think that's exactly right. I even do that, at times, if I'm having trouble with someone that just, maybe, they irritate me or whatever. And it's amazing what happens when you start praying for that person, that God gives you a different perspective. And, so, how much more does he do that with our spouse or our kids in those situations? For sure. So a couple of questions, did it ever feel like the military was his first priority?

Jen: Oh, for sure. It's just the nature of it.

Dr. Kim: It is the nature-

Jen: It just has to be at times, and you have to accept, as a spouse, that it is going to be mission first, at times. I think the military has gotten a lot better, over the years, of getting past that, "If the military wanted you to have a spouse, they would have issued you one" that mindset from decades ago. There is a lot more military family support, but at the end of the day, it is mission first. 

Like I mentioned, I don't think it's helpful for the active-duty person to feel as pressure from their spouse or family over things they can't control, over deployments, or an assignment. Because what good does that do? They're not doing it to you, the military is not doing it to you, it can feel like it. But it is just a distraction from the job they need to do, and it's not just any job, it's really a way of life. It really is. It's like first responders, it's once they're in, they're all in. They have to be immersed in that, to do their job well.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I would think so. When Steve would come home, could he make the transition to putting you a priority, then, since he wasn't deployed and wasn't in the middle of a mission. Could you make that transition or is that hard?

Jen: I think it' like the rest of it, it can be a little rocky. And he would even tell me, one time, he said, "For me to survive twelve months away from you all, I almost have to turn off a part of myself." And, so, when they come home, they have to consciously turn that back on, but it's not automatic. It's not that they don't care, but, like I said, I put myself in his shoes, "What would I feel like, if I had to go do that and know that it doesn't matter what I do, I'm not seeing my family for this many months." You do have to kind of get numb to that to be able to function. 

And, so, there is that readjusting, getting used to each other. One thing I did, and this sounds crazy, but we are big reality TV junkies. So I would record all of it while he was gone, and not watch any of it. So just having those moments of normalcy, no pressure. We're not trying to go on this big vacation. It's just we're at home watching the season of Survivor or whatever, and just reconnecting over little ways, or taking a walk, or things that we really missed. 

One thing I always reminded myself was this is not always going to be our lives. We're in the thick of this craziness of every year there was some big change, a move, or a deployment, 

or both, sometimes. And, so, what do you want your marriage to be in 20 years? And I would tell myself that, "What do I want it to look like?" At some point, we're just going to be me and him. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.

Jen: And, so, what are we building towards? And when we were first married, I had a pastor say to me and it stuck with me, it still does. It was this young married class we were in, and he said, "Lower the expectations, raise the appreciation." And I'd go "That's not fair, I should have expectations." But, over time, I've just seen the truth of that.

Dr. Kim: There's a lot of wisdom there. 

Jen: If you just don't have an agenda, and appreciate them, and give them grace, it will come back to you most of the time. And I'm not talking about abusive marriages or toxic, of course, but just the normal run-of-the-mill marriage, where you're just readjusting. Give yourself a lot of grace, give them a lot of grace, and I think that that will be a good, strategy for that.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I love your idea of when you would record the reality shows. I think, one, it gave you something to do for him when he wasn't there. Then something that you knew you both enjoyed, and you could share that afterward, I think things like that are great ideas.

Jen: And so simple.

Dr. Kim: And it's so simple, yes, just record, hit Record and save them. And then you watch them when he comes back. But it gave you a way to connect with him on something you both enjoyed. And I would think that really had to help during the reintegration period, to have things like that.

Jen: Yes, I would also say, really, protect your time on that reintegration period. In laws can wait, they just can unless the active duty person, really, wants them there. But we just knew, especially, family of six, we needed those days and weeks to get readjusted to each other. We didn't plan big vacations because that's just a lot of pressure. It was just more being at home, having some quiet moments, getting used to each other. 

One of the worst reintegration, honestly, was that last deployment in Afghanistan. Because he came out, we were moving, three weeks later, from Germany to Hawaii, dropping our oldest son off at college in Texas. 

I landed in Hawaii, and I was just shell-shocked. I was like, "This is just too many transitions." And, again, he'd been in over 25 years, and I thought, "I really should have this." And I'm sitting in a hotel in Waikiki Beach, absolutely miserable. Thinking we're so distant and forgetting that we're still in the midst of this reintegration period, even though the military had thrown this other stuff on top of it.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Jen: We had to figure out a new way after that deployment, it's different every time.

Dr. Kim: I think that's really good, to know that you don't get it down. It's not like, "One, two, three, we do this, every deployment, and everything's great, everything's different." Well, your kids are different ages, your marriage is in a different stage, each time, and you have to realize that. 

What you're saying about being realistic for the integration has got to be good because I would think there could be some unrealistic expectations that people might have, and all those kind of things that can make it more complicated. Instead of, what you're saying, just go with it and do the things that get you back where you want to be, but it's not going to happen day one.

Jen: Yes, and I hope that doesn't sound depressing. I just think facing reality that they are coming out of something that's significant, and so are you. And you love each other, you're so happy to be together, but you just have to give it time.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think, it's like anything else that we do that's really valuable. It just takes time. A relationship with God grows over time, and I think, a marriage does that over time. And the same thing would apply to reintegration, that yes, maybe, like you were saying about, "We're not going to be in this forever, and we're going to just be the two of us at one point." To know that, yes, we're going to do reintegration right. And it may be hard, but it's going to pay off in the long run for us, and being willing to do that because we get impatient.

Jen: Oh, yes, definitely.

Dr. Kim: Yes, come home and love me like-

Jen: Come on, let's go.

Dr. Kim: Yes, let me give you my list and just do that, and everything will be great.

Jen: I don't think deployments get easier. And people will ask you, "Doesn't it get easier because you've been through this so many times?" and you go, "In some ways, yes, because I have more tools that I know about, more resources." I know I've done it before; I can do it again. But, also, no, because I know what's coming. And, so, there's that feeling of dread.

So it's just this mixed bag, like anything in life. But I think younger spouses may be surprised how hard that reintegration period is. I think seasoned spouses know what's coming and just hope for the best. But just know that it's very normal, I think, if military spouses are out there listening.

Dr. Kim: Well, and, maybe, to find a mentor, a lady that's been through it, to walk with you, if this is your first deployment, something like that.

Jen: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: What about someone's listening today and they're struggling. Maybe he's deployed, maybe he's just got back or getting ready to, what would you say to them?

Jen: Well, my heart goes out to you because I know how hard that can be, and it can feel like you're failing. I had a friend say, "Being in the military, it's almost like they get out-of-jail-free card because anything they're doing is so much more important than anything you're doing. You're talking about national security. 

And, so, you can almost feel guilty for having some thoughts about this, or some anger, or needing something from them because it just doesn't feel like it's, as important. But I would say, go back and remember why you fell in love, in the first place, that's important. That's still that same person. 

Another thing I would say is the devil is real, he does not want Christian marriages to work out. And, so, don't believe his lies, just don't. Your marriage is sacred, God wants it to succeed, and it's rare that your spouse is always wrong. Take a look at yourself, it can be easy to think, "God, would you change this person because they are so wrong." I'm not always a walk in the park, I know this. So it's hard to admit, sometimes.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Jen: And talk with your partner and ask them what they really need, and listen because maybe it's something completely different than what you were thinking. You may be going off on a whole different route, and what they're needing is just something so simple. So it's just back to that communication. But pray a lot, pray together, pray for each other. 

Steve and I, we went through a really hard struggle about seven years in. To the point where military life had just become such a burden. We had a bunch of little kids. He was working on his degree at night. I was home alone all day and we just were not connecting, and I packed some bags and was ready to leave. And he just stood in the doorway and he said, "You're not taking my babies." 

So I stood there and I was exhausted, I was like, "I'm just going to go to bed." And it didn't get fixed overnight, I was still mad over whatever the argument was about, whatever that was. We always say we're not, necessarily, the greatest but we have stuck in there. And I really think God has honored us just sticking in there, even when we didn't feel like it. 

Even when I really didn't like him very much, and I know, sometimes, he didn't like me. Like, "What have I done? This would be so much easier on my own or with someone else." But just hanging in there, remembering that God is faithful, and I truly believe He will bless you for just that stick-to-it-iveness. And it doesn't sound very romantic, but I do believe that God honors that commitment.

Dr. Kim: I do, too, absolutely. I see that so much, not just any couple, young couples, they get in those situations and they give up. And it's persevering through those things, like you're saying you and Steve did, especially, through that hard time, that God does honor that and you grow through. And, finally, you realize, "Okay, God is with us in this, and He does have answers that we don't have." And sticking through it, now it's worth it, right?

Jen: Yes, now we're grandparents, it's so fun.

Dr. Kim: Yes, a good point. One thing you said that was really important because you guys are talking about communication, and I think just, maybe, taking time for each of them to sit down and talk about their expectations of each other. So they can see are those realistic or not? So we can talk through those things. 

Because, I think, so many times we have expectations, that are unrealistic to the other person or we don't communicate them to the other person, like you were kind of saying. You just guess what they like or what they don't like. Well, why not ask them and just hit the nail on the head with them in that situation.

Jen: And agree to not get defensive or be personal about it, just try to communicate in a loving way. And I think that goes back to, if you just stop and look at your spouse, I don't know if you do this with yours, I'll just remember this guy that I met at church. I thought he was the best thing in the world, he's still that person. He really is, and I love him more than I did then, and I loved him a lot then. But just reminding yourself God brought you together. Why did He bring you together and who they really are, still?

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and it wasn't just to get divorced, it wasn't just to give up on it.

Jen: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. With all we've talked about, you and I were talking before we went live, of some resources I thought were really good to pass on to people. Just some things that are available for them, for their kids. Do you want to talk about a couple of those things? And then we'll put all this in the show notes. We talked about the Comfort Crew and some things like that.

Jen: Mh-hmm, yes, and the PILLAR Deployment Retreat, if you're going through a deployment, there is an online deployment retreat. It's actually coming up, it's completely free, they do it every year, and it's all online, and it's different sessions. I'm actually speaking this year about in-laws, dealing with in laws because our son served as well. So I have the perspective of mother-in-law and the military spouse. 

And, so, just all sorts of really great topics. And if you can't attend live, you have the access to the library, all you have to do is register. There's no obligation, there's no fee, and then you get this great downloadable workbook, so that's incredible. It's sponsored by USAA, and these great spouses, Becky Hoy and Joanna Guldin-Noll, who have been in the military spouse community for a long time, have been running it for a few years. So I highly recommend that. 

There are so many books and podcasts now for military spouses, including mine, of course. But there are lots of great people out there doing incredible things. For children, Military Child Education Coalition is a big one I really recommend, for connecting with and they can help guide you to resources. Another one's Military Kids Connect. Military OneSource is the big, overarching, clearinghouse for a lot of those things. If you go to Military OneSource, you can find counseling.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and we will link to those, And, then, obviously, how do people find you? Yes, let's talk about that.

Jen: Okay, well, I have a website at jen-mcdonald.com, and I do have Christian Military Spouse Resources. I have just some general resources, PCS Move, Military Spouse, lots of blog posts. I have two podcasts. My husband retired a few years ago, and here I still am because I just love this community so much. And as long as there's a need, I will keep doing this. I get to have some great guests on my show, from all the different branches, and just sharing different resources or their stories. And, of course, my two books, my first book is a 30-day Devotional. 

I also have, on my website, a Deployment Devotional. It's a five-day deployment devotional that's very inexpensive, that you can just download immediately. So I think those are some things that I can offer. And if people are looking for something else and want something from me that, maybe, is not available, let me know because I'm always open to suggestions.

Dr. Kim: That's awesome. And you said that you want to do a giveaway?

Jen: Yes, absolutely, I will give away a copy of each of my books, You Are Not Alone: Encouragement for the Heart of a Military Spouse. And, then, my brand new book, Milspouse Matters: Sharing Strength Through Our Stories. So I can either do signed copies or if somebody would rather have it on Kindle, we can do that. So whatever the winner prefers.

Dr. Kim: Okay, that all will be in the show notes, and thank you for that. That's very generous, and I think that's always fun.

Jen: Yes, it is.

Dr. Kim: Last question.

Jen: Okay.

Dr. Kim: What are you loving about your marriage right now?

Jen: Well, we love being grandparents. We have two little grandbabies and our one daughter lives a block away, and we have a brand new six-week-old grandbaby. So it's really fun to see my husband as a grandfather. It's just so fun to see your partner, your spouse, through different phases and you're like, "Wow, you're really good at this." I really appreciate that. Who knew, and he was a great dad, so it shouldn't be a surprise, but he's a great grandfather. 

I really love how much time we have together. That was a pretty difficult adjustment at first. Not going to lie, that could be a whole 'nother topic because, like I mentioned, he traveled the last 10 of his 32-year career. He was gone all the time. 

So he retired from the military and he, suddenly, was just there. So that was a bit of an adjustment, and I'm realizing now what a treasure it is. I lost my younger brother just a few years ago, very young. And, so, I look at things like that and I go, "I'm just so thankful for this time with my husband because you just never know what's going to happen." And, so, I'm thankful for him being here and getting to do all these things with him, that I used to have to do by myself. 

The other thing I really love about our marriage, we have this history, I've known him since I was in high school. There are so many inside jokes, shared memories, that I just couldn't imagine not having him in my life. And I just am so grateful for him and how we've grown together from those two youngsters, it has really gone by in a flash. It really has, but we really grew up together. And, so, I stop, sometimes, and look at that and go, "Wow, here we are decades later."

Dr. Kim: Yes, it is, and I agree with you, grandparenting is one of the real joys in life, and that you guys are getting to enjoy that together. And he's going to get to be there day after day with those grandkids, so that's going to be a lot of fun for you guys together, too. 

This has been a great conversation. I love everything you're doing. The ministry you have to people that, really, everybody doesn't understand what military spouses go through and you do. And you're willing to spend the time with them, and create great resources for them, so thank you for that. Thanks for being with us today, I appreciate you a lot.

Jen: Thank you so much, it's been my absolute pleasure.

Dr. Kim: Thanks.

[00:45:35] < Outro >

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