Life-Giving Rhythms in Parenting: Wives' Edition with Nellie Harden | Ep. 570

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

Dr. Kim: Hey, welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. Thank you for joining us. You are going to love this podcast. My special guest is Nellie Harden. She's an author, a speaker, a family life and leadership coach, and founder of The 6570 Family Project. She's been married for over 20 years.

Nellie is mom to four teenage daughters. She believes in a life of intention, and making dreams and goals realities. The topic is Life-Giving Rhythms in Parenting. She has some of the absolute best parenting ideas I've ever heard. You're going to love this. Let's go to the studio right now.

Nellie, welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. Thank you for saying yes. I was so excited when you did, and I'm excited for today, when we get to talk. Thanks again for saying yes.

Nellie: Oh, thank you for having me on.

Dr. Kim: You're welcome. So for people who may not know you a lot. Let's get into this deal that you've got this career in biology and psychology. You've got a behavior background from humpback whales, to human kids, to families. So how did you get from biology to family life coaching?

Nellie: Well, I think, it goes underneath the surface to say why I was so interested in that. I grew up in the Midwest. I was surrounded by the Great Lakes but, certainly, not oceans. Yet, I had just this calling, this urge in me, since I would say early elementary, to study whales. And the fact that I went through school, I even went to college in the middle of the country, at Indiana University. And I was able to still do that, and I accomplished that. 

But I really love the combination and the interweaving of biology and psychology because I love to know the nuts and bolts. How things are actually looking, and working, and firing, and things. But then how does that come across? How is that expressed? How is that explored in experiential and in behavior? And, so, it's such a unique combination of places that you can study. 

And, so, I went in that for a long time, and I was able to study animals in the wild and also in captivity. And it's really interesting to me, how much that comes into play in parenting and in the work that I do now. To have been able to study and witness what, for lack of a better word, what really raw parenting. Black and white survival parenting looks like and the purpose of what this child-rearing time is. We are raising adults, we're not raising kids, in order to get them ready for the world. 

And, so, I'm really grateful for that time in my life, and then I retired from all of that. And within a year of retiring from that, my husband went into ICU with cardiac failure, in his early 30s. And it's a really long story, years-long story.

But the long and short of it is I was able to, then, take everything that I had been taught and put it into practice within my own family. Because we had to make behavioral changes. We had to have communication different than we'd ever had it before. We had four kids that were four and under, and we didn't know if my husband was going to make it or not.

Dr. Kim: Wow.

Nellie: And we were going through all of that and my husband is still here, by the way, and we've been married for 22 years now. But we went through all of that. And about two years after that, I was sitting in church, and we were new to church, at the time. And that's an entirely other podcast that I could fill up, as far as how we came to the church. But we had only been really active in the church for about two years, at that time.

It was 2012, all of this stuff was behind us. Some lingering things but, mostly, behind us, and I was just called. I was called to get up and it was okay, "You have helped your family get through this. You have the tools. You have developed the resources, now go share it with other people." And I came out of that service and I looked at my husband, I was like, "I think I need to go and help families with building family discipline and leadership."

And he's like, "What?"

Nellie: And I was like, "I know, right?" And I feel like that's when you know it's from the Lord. When you're like, "I don't know, it's just-"

Dr. Kim: Exactly.

Nellie: "This is what I'm supposed to do." And I started off small and I started talking here and here, just small things. And then that was eleven years ago and it's grown into what it is today. So that's the long and short of it.

Dr. Kim: That's awesome. I've got to ask a little bit about what you learned from the humpback whales, though. Because whales fascinate me, too.

Nellie: Oh, yes, well, they're just so majestic, and I've had some of my, even though I didn't even know the beauty and the majesty of Christ back then. I had some of my closest encounters with God when I was working with whales, and just one of these encounters, let me describe to you.

I was in Australia, Northern Australia, on the Great Barrier Reef. We were doing some research up there, and we were doing observation work. And we would record their songs because their song is pretty much the same every year, but there are some changes, and every male sings the same song. But it can be ten minutes long, it could be 15 minutes long, but it's the same song. Everyone sings it. 

So it's not just a, "Hey, Bob, what are you doing today, for lunch?" One whale talking to another. When, especially, these mating calls, it's the same song over and over. So we dropped a hydrophone overboard. Because in the boat I was in, it was small enough that we could feel it through the bottom, through the hull of the boat that we were in.

Dr. Kim: Wow.

Nellie: So we dropped it overboard, and just we're in wide open ocean here. Let me give you an idea of how small this boat was. It was small enough that I could hold on to the side and drop my head under, with a snorkel on, and look underneath. That's how small the thing was. And, so, that's what I did, though, and there were two others on my team. Thankfully, we went to different sides of the boat to do this. 

So we dropped over and we looked, and under our boat, with the sun just pouring in like a spotlight on this adolescent male humpback. And he was vertical in the water, pure wetting, just slowly, with those huge humpback pectoral fins, just dancing in latency behind him. As he would drag through the water, and he was just singing this song, and we could, literally, feel it.

And when you're lying on the boat, then, we could feel it in our hearts. We could feel it in every bone of our own bodies, and I just sat there and watched this. And it was such a magnificent moment. And it was so powerful, yet so gentle. And you're like, "Okay, that's beautiful, but how does that pertain to what you're doing?" 

And, I think, with parenting, too, we have the position where we can be so powerful. We can, for lack of a better word, lord over them, "You do this." We can be on that big chair and them down there. But if we're doing that, then we're missing the beauty and the peace that could be coming through that, and the growth of that child. 

And, so, having that power that we have, but being peaceful within that power was something I took away from that moment that pertains to parenting, and what I get to do now. I remember witnessing, and I was doing observations on gorillas, actually, another time.

And just seeing these moms that were so patient with these babies, that were not doing what Mama wanted them to do, at all. And mom was trying to teach them how to do something, and she just kept grabbing them, "Nope, that's not how you do it. Nope." And she was so patient and really seeing she is trying to get them ready for the wild.

And in our human messiness that we have, we are raising children to get them ready for the world. The messy world that's out there. And, so, we have, especially, I feel like in Western culture, have this idea that we are raising kids, and once they're 18, they age out of childhood. But then you're just releasing them to, I'll just keep with the metaphor and say, the wild. You're releasing them into the wild, instead of launching them into it. Equipped with the knowledge, the faith, their gifts, their talents.

The knowledge of how to use them out in the world; their worth, their self-esteem, their confidence. So there's a really big difference between releasing and launching your kids. And what happens out in the animal world, if these children are abandoned and do not learn how to use what they need to use out in the world, it doesn't go well.

Dr. Kim: Yes, they won't survive.

Nellie: Exactly, and we see that today, and maybe it's not, unfortunately, sometimes, it is, but many times it's not a physical survival that they're going through. But definitely emotional, and mental, and spiritual. So equip them so they can go out into the world ready for the world.

Dr. Kim: So as the mom side of you just are launching your oldest daughter this fall. It's all coming, all this stuff you've been talking about, now you're in the middle of it.

Nellie: Yes.

Dr. Kim: Is that interesting? I mean, is that just thinking, "Oh, my gosh, this is me. I'm not talking to someone else about this, this is our life right now."

Nellie: I know. It's funny because as a family, we're going through and doing my program right now.

Dr. Kim: That's so good.

Nellie: It's just so funny. It's videos, and so it's still my voice, it's still my work. But at least it's third party because it's not me standing in front of them doing it. They can see it as separated a little bit, but we're going through that. And just today I was at orientation for her college, and we were asked, we had these little clickers, actually. Instead of clapping, they give us clickers.

And they said, "Do you feel like your child is ready to come into this world and be safe and thrive?" And I was able to click that, I really was. I really feel like she's ready now. Will she go there? Yes, she'll go there. But will she make mistakes? Probably. Will she go there and be overwhelmed, especially, at the beginning? Absolutely. But we have done everything that we could do here, at home, and now she needs to go and apply that in the world that she is creating there. So, yes, it's a big day for this conversation right here.

Dr. Kim: Yes, well, I just love the analogy between that and as you talked about the whales, and the gorillas, and the principles are there, and we have so much to learn from them. I love what you said about the patience of the mom gorilla. I think every mother, at some point, would like to have more patience.

Nellie: Oh, yes.

Dr. Kim: And just to see that, that's awesome.

[00:12:45] < Music >

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Dr. Kim: So let's move on to The 6570 Family Project. Let's talk about that, the idea behind it, and what it is.

Nellie: Yes, so going along with this same idea. It's funny, our family has run a few different businesses here and there. And this one is mine that I have, it is my love, it is my passion, and it is everything. But all of our stuff is born from our own lives.

And, so, we experience something, we learn something, and then we go and teach something. And the entire idea behind The 6570, which, by the way, is how many days are in 18 years. There are 6,570. So it's a big reminder to show up intentionally every day. And it does not mean that you will be perfect every day.

In fact, I do not believe in perfectionism. And, honestly, as a parent, I really urge people to stay away from trying to be perfect because we are raising other adults here. We're raising other humans. And if we're trying to be perfect, then, that is a pressure that we are putting on them in order to do the same, and no one is perfect. And in order for them to learn, "How do I get up when I fall down?"

"How do I apologize when I fail?"

"How do I face someone when I've embarrassed myself?"

They learn that from watching what's happening at home, in their natural environment right there. So, as a parent, we're going to mess up and then we show up to their room and say, "You know what? I really shouldn't have said that. I'm really sorry. Let's try that again, can you explain to me a little bit more what you wanted to tell me? And I'm going to be calm now and, again, I apologize."

So they know when they overreact, at some point, which absolutely will happen. They can approach that person with kindness, and compassion, and sincerity and say, "You know what? I overreacted, I'm really sorry. Can we try that again?"

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Nellie: So what we're learning there. So, anyway, The 6570 is all about showing up with intention during that time, and building this one foundation. So I use an analogy of a lava field a lot of times, because the world can feel like a lava field sometimes.

And if you are in a lava field and you have one little platform here, and you have another little platform way over there, and another one over there. You are, first of all, never feel safe because the lava is always right there. You never feel safe. You have to figure out how to get to the next platform, if you need it. Maybe you learned a lot about Scholastics here, "So, on this one, I'm good."

"Oh, wait, now I need to figure out, someone needs me to do something but I'm overbooked because I'm in hustle culture. So I need to figure out my time management. But that's way over there, how am I going to get there?" There's all this anxiety all the time. Versus building one very strong, firm, foundation at an address, right at the cross section of understanding their biology, their psychology, their faith, and understanding how to be in and relate to culture, but not be of culture.

And, so, right in the middle of that cross section, you build your foundation. It's a three-tier, just think of a three-tier cake, but much stronger. It's a three-tier cake. And it is made out of worthiness; so that bottom foundation is worth. They have to know that they are worthy to be here. And then the next layer to that is going to be self-esteem. Their value and appreciation of self and others. And then that top tier is their confidence, their true belief in themselves. And if we can build that foundation at that address, and build it along the way, then they will be ready to launch. 

Now, yours, mine, my child, anyone that's listening to this, it's going to look a little bit different. But it's how someone feels worthy, for example, there are five elements to that. They need to be seen, they need to be heard, they need to know they're loved, they need to know they belong, and that they have a purpose. 

But the way my daughter feels seen and heard, might be different than how your daughter or someone else's child feels seen and heard. So it's uniquely made for that individual, but the structure is the same. And then when they're at the top of that, they're far away from the lava.

They don't feel like they have to be anxious all the time. They're like, "I got this." They can have their own little oasis up there, chilling on a little hammock up there. And they can really build on, and they can launch from, and they can grow on that one single foundation. And that's really what The 6570 Family Project is all about. It is building that foundation at that address, within that time frame.

Dr. Kim: That is so good. You said something that I really liked when you said it. It's not a one-size-fits-all. So you've got four daughters; can you give an example just from them of what you did different from one to the other?

Nellie: Absolutely. I call my daughters four corners of a square because they are all very different. Including my middle two are twins, very different. And, so, let's just take discipline, which is part of that structure that you're building right there.

You need tools to build that structure, and that's what we really talk about in The 6570 Family Project. What are those tools and how do I use them? But one of those tools is discipline; and how I discipline one twin, I'll just take them since they're a good comparative analysis there. How I talk to one is very different than how I have to talk to another. One requires me just to look at her a certain way, and she's like, "Oh, yes, I know exactly what you need me to do, I'm sorry."

The other one, typically, needs a lot more coaching and a lot more talks. We have a camera in our kitchen, for example, and I've had to bust that out, sometimes, because she didn't believe me on how she was behaving. And, so, I had to bring that out, and then she was like, "Oh, yes, okay, I get it."

And, so, just how they're disciplined, and keep in mind, for all the listeners, discipline means teaching. Discipline is not consequences; those are two separate things. Sometimes discipline involves consequence, but every time discipline is teaching. And, so, depending on what the circumstance is there. 

So how I discipline each one of my kids is so different. Knee-to-knee conversations, like sitting down, and we sit crisscross applesauce, knee to knee, just looking into each other's eyes. So the distractions of the world aren't around. She knows that I am serious and 100% invested in her right now, and vice versa.

And, so, when some things are happening, we sit down and we have those. Some of my kids, I've had to have more of those with than others. And, so, it just really depends. And it takes getting to know your child for who they are and who they're becoming. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Nellie: Just having come from a lot of talks, over the last two days, having to do with kids. And there's this misnomer out there today that you go and find yourself. You go and basically pick your identity out of a field of flowers, is what it makes it sound like. And, "Oh, they haven't discovered themselves, yet." Yourself isn't being discovered, yourself is being built.

So deciding where am I going, and is my behavior right now aligned with who I am trying to become? So helping them along that journey, too, is very different with each child. And you have to know them, in order to do that with them.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. Because I think all of us, at some point, wish we had a formula and it worked with every kid, and it just doesn't. And what you're saying, maybe, the people who are listening, say, "Well, that takes a lot of work." And it does, doesn't it? But don't you think, you do it on the front end, you're going to have less problems as you go through it. Because you've done what you needed to do as far as knowing that child, and now how to teach, to correct, all those things.

Nellie: Absolutely. So here's the thing and the cautionary tales that have led me here, as well, in doing this work are just as profound, if not more. Than the tales of my own kids and those that I've helped get to a point of what I call self-discipline leadership.

Which is where you want them to be before they leave home. They came into the world as parent led, you did everything for them. And throughout this 6,570, you are gradually moving them down a spectrum to self-discipline leadership. Because in order to do anything in this world, you have to be able to lead yourself first and foremost.

And, so, going on and doing that, and how do I get to that point? Is essential parenting, but I've seen what happens when you don't. We work with people, as a family, we work with people who are in their early 20s, who are in their 30s, who are even beyond that. Who didn't have this foundation built when they were kids, and those consequences are big. And they not only hurt themselves, but they hurt so many people around them as well. And it's heavy and it's hard, and that's a lesson that we've been able to show our kids and see, "You know what, they just never learned this that we're teaching you right now, and this is what happens.

But we're going to love them, and we're going to pray over them, and we're going to help them anyway. But this is where we don't want you to be, and this is why we're teaching you this now."

Dr. Kim: That's so good. And it, probably, makes a lot more sense to your kids then, when they can see the other side of it. When someone has it.

Nellie: Oh, yes, someone absolutely.

Dr. Kim: So you talk about the shifts that might come, as a child moves in the second half of growing up years. What is the change that would happen from that stage to the second stage?

Nellie: Yes, so the first half of childhood, like I alluded to a little bit, is you're really building life for them. Their friends are who you say they are. They're eating what you say they are. They're doing and going to what you say they are. And then the second half of childhood, instead of doing life for them, you're really moving and transitioning to doing life with them. So that at the end of The 6570 they are doing their life, in a self-disciplined leadership manner. 

And, so, this shift happens, I call it the great transition, and there's no certain date that it happens. I'm so glad that we have 6,570 days to really do this area of parenting. You're always going to be their parent, but this 6,570 is your highest impact zone, for the rest of their life.

And, so, I'm just very grateful we have all this time, and some kid, I'm seeing this starting around age six, age seven. Some of them I'm seeing 11, 12. So on average, it's around eight or nine. And I hear from parents, "I don't know what happened. This just started coming up, and she started acting like this and doing this and making these choices."

And I'm like, "It's all normal, it's 100% okay." And this is why it's so important to understand biology. The brain functionality of what's happening in her body and, especially, in young women, the endocrine system, too. To understand what's happening with the hormone levels.

And as a parent of four young women, myself, if I didn't understand this, I would probably have the vocabulary, like I hear a lot of other parents of young women having. Going, " I don't know, they're just being a teenager. They're driving me nuts, they're being rude, and that's just their job." I've heard that before. I'm like, "That's not really their job. Gaining independence is their job, being rude is not their job."

"And they're driving me crazy, so I'm just going to let them do whatever." And then that sets them up for so many scenarios where they can be unsafe.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Nellie: And, so, if you understand their brain chemistry. The fact that their brain between, especially, 10 to 15 is developing like it did when they were toddlers. And then you see some light bulbs go off like, "Oh, yes, they are acting like they did when they were a toddler."

I'm like, "Yes, it's okay." But this time they have a lot more independence. They have a lot more words to use back at you than they did when they were two, and a lot more freedom. And, so, it's much more challenging during the adolescent years than it was when they were, mentally and emotionally, anyway. Physically, maybe, a little bit less, but mentally and emotionally, much bigger than when they were toddlers. 

And, so, if we can understand that, and come alongside and support that brain transition. If we can support, "Okay, they are making connections right now that will last them the rest of their lives." You can think about it like a train track being laid. And anyone that's ever seen a track being laid, let's just say East Coast to West Coast, it doesn't just happen overnight. 

Those pieces are laid one by one by one by one, over time. With intentionality of direction, angle where they're going to go. And as a parent of an adolescent, we are helping them lay those tracks right now. And it takes some of that intention, even if they are not seeing it. Their brain is full of a lot of hot wires that are going all over the place right now, especially, in a young woman. Memories run through the emotional centers.

And, so, they come home and they seem fine, and then they tell you about something that happened in first hour and, all of a sudden, they're a puddle on the floor. And you're like, '"They're just insane." No, they're having a memory they're, literally, reliving it.

So understanding the biology is a really big coping mechanism and understanding mechanism of parenting young people today. And then how that perceives in psychology and where they're at in their faith. Getting them to own their own faith before they leave home, not just borrowing the faith of their parents. And then what do I do with this whole culture thing? Because culture is constantly changing. But you don't have to be constantly changing. You can stand firm within culture, without being of culture.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. So for parents, because I don't know how many kids, I've had tell me, that I've talked to, that are maybe 13 or 14, "My parents still treat me like I'm ten or something like that." So how do parents know when they're there? How do they know when to make that shift? Because I don't think it's automatic that we know, "Okay, now it's time to do that."

Nellie: Yes. Just observe, be in observance. So if you get that question or they say, "I'm not a little kid anymore." And, then, a typical parent response is, "Well, you're acting like one, so I'm going to do this..." type of thing. But instead of going there, which is our reactionary response, we need to be calm. We need to say, "Okay, they're really not seeing themselves as that anymore." So ask them, "What do you mean by that?" And it won't be in the moment because they're going to go off, and they're upset or what have you.

But when it is calm; sit down, eye to eye, you don't need to be above them. But sit down eye to eye and say, "I know you said earlier that I treat you like a little kid, and I understand you're not a little kid anymore, but can you tell me what that means to you?" You're partnering with them during this time.

And, so, have them guide the sails a little bit. So that they can tell you what they're feeling, what they're seeing, what they're thinking. And then you can come together and say, "Okay, I'm going to lift you up in that. But this area, do you see how you might need a little bit more support? So let's work on here, but I understand what you're saying here, and I want to support you in that."

So really have those discussions, and see them as a partner more than a little kid that you are raising. And I know those little kid snuggles are so cute and they're wonderful, and there was a time for those. And they will still hug you, and appreciate you, and respect you.

But we need to, as parents, respect and appreciate them for who they are growing into and becoming as well, and really asking them their opinions. Like I alluded to earlier, one of those pieces of worth is that they are seen and heard. And, so, that is one of the things that gets them so frustrated, is "I don't feel like my parents are seeing me, and I don't feel like my parents are actually hearing me." So do your part, as a parent, and listen and really see them and then have those conversations.

Dr. Kim: That is so good. Yes, we have a tendency, and I've got a 14-year-old granddaughter, that it's so easy. I've heard people say, "Well, she's just 14." And, so, you're putting all these 14-year-olds in a box. And taking time to, because she and I have a great relationship, and we talk, and ask questions, and she loves that I listen to her. And her parents do a good job, too, they're great parents. But I think that kids want to be listened to and they want you to value what they say. And then it can change that whole dynamic you have between them, don't you think?

Nellie: Oh, absolutely, and another piece to that is ask them their opinions about your own life. This is so valuable to be able to say, "How are you doing, mom?"

"Actually, I'm really stressed out right now. This thing is happening with work or this volunteer position, or your uncle, or something. What do you think about this? How do you think I should approach this?"

And, all of a sudden, they're like, "Wow, my opinion on this adult thing actually matters, and she might take that." Some of the advice you won't take, of course, but when you do really give them props for that and say, "Gosh, thank you so much for letting me know that and giving me that perspective. Because I didn't see that from my perspective right then, and that was really helpful. Thank you." And, wow, does that give them like an injection of worthiness right there?

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, that is so good. Nancy and I, our goal always, we wanted to be adult friends with our kids, after they left. And I think that begins to set that, to build that, foundation for that to happen.

Nellie: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: We value them and we listen to them. That's so good.

[00:34:24] < Music >

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[00:35:28] < Music >

Dr. Kim: So let's talk about just the things. What can couples, or people, do each day, each week, each month, each year? Some rhythms, routines, to be intentional, to build that culture that we're talking about.

Nellie: Yes, well, daily, I would say to have what I call a convergence event. Some people, you've heard many times, like have dinner around the table every night. Well, it's not dinner that's important as much as it is, that you are coming together in the middle of the day. Especially when you have adolescents, things are going all over the place. You think about a stack of wheat that was just harvested, it's just laying all over the place. It looks like chaos. 

But then you have that cinching event, that convergence event, where everything comes together. And that's where ideas are shared, that is where opinions are given. That is just where the day is shared, "This is what happened with me today." So everyone gets on the same page.

For us, many times, that's a dog walk. We go on a two-mile dog walk in the afternoons, and we still do eat together a lot of times, too. But more often, it is that dog walk that can really get us all together. And we're just walking, it's a beautiful day, we're walking the dogs. "Hey, what did you do today?"

"Oh, yes, oh, tell me about more about that." And we all get to just share. And, so, having a daily convergence event, whatever that is for you. It might be breakfast, it might be bedtime, or it might be something in between, is really important to maintain that family structure. We're in this together, we're a team, and that's what we do. So that's what I would definitely recommend daily.

Weekly, one of the best things that we have done, and I teach and teach, and recommend and recommend, is one-on-one time with each of your kids. We have four kids, our kids are split between the second and the third floors, so we have two on each. And, so, on Tuesday nights, we go to the second floor. I go to one room; my husband goes to the other. And then on Thursday nights, we go to the third floor. I go to one, my husband goes to the other, and then the next week we switch to whatever child we didn't get the week before.

So my kids know, "Every week, I am going to have one-on-one time with either mom or dad." And that time, if you only have 15 minutes, just do 15 minutes, whatever that is. 

We do a half hour; a lot of times it leaks into a little bit longer. And during those times, it can be just, "Hey, show me what you've been working on in school."

Or, "Let's talk about your interests."

Or, "Let's talk about your friends."

Or, "Let's talk about this really hard thing that we need to talk about right now." And it's run the gamut of everything in between. But our kids really look forward to that time and so do we. And it really helps get to know them, so that you know how they can be seen, heard, loved, belong, and have a purpose. Those pieces of worthiness we were talking about that are individual to them.

And you will find out things in that one-on-one time that you just won't on a convergence event, like sitting around the kitchen or the dining room table. Maybe it's a hard subject and they don't want to say it in front of everybody, or they're a little embarrassed, or whatever that is. You will learn things in there that you won't learn any other time. So really important to have that time.

Dr. Kim: So good.

Nellie: Monthly, I would really recommend having a family check in. And this could be if you want to be super formal, it could be like a family meeting. Or it could just be going out to eat and having this family check in. I have something I'm developing right now for this. It's just 15 minutes to go through. 

I really recommend these three times a year. So beginning of the school year, beginning of the second semester, or at the start of the calendar year, and then beginning of summer. So definitely those three times you want to revisit. "What were your goals? Did you achieve them?"

"What are you trying to do now?"

"How are you helping yourself mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally?" All of those things and it goes through, and it's just really fun. And you get to learn something, and there's no interrupting during that time. Everyone has a platform that they can talk on, and you can even make it fun. You can call it monthly ice cream night, or you have ice cream for dinner one night, or something fun. But just bring that in there and have that monthly check in.

Yearly, I would say just get away, as parents, get away once a year. And I will be honest and say that we did not do a good job of this, as parents. We have always lived thousands of miles away from any family, and so it was very difficult for us. But as they've gotten older, in adolescence, we've been able to do it more. Even if it's just three, four days, get away as parents. So that you can reconstruct yourselves as the couple that you are, in your marriage, and you can come back and parent stronger. Because strong marriages are strong parents, too.

Not to say you can't be a strong parent without a strong marriage, as well. I completely understand that. I was raised by a single mom for my first eight years, too. But I do know that strong marriages definitely help in parenting as well. And you have that partner there, and you can feel more filled, yourself, coming back from that trip.

And, so, that's something I recommend. And then just routines, building a family culture around connection. Having things like tech agreements, chores, and responsibilities.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Nellie: Are they working? Are you serving in some capacity as a family? Setting expectations, being super clear with one another, just some things like that.

Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good. It's really just being intentional every day.

Nellie: Yes.

Dr. Kim: You've got the end goal of what you want, "Well, how do we do that?"

"Well, daily we do this, weekly we do this, monthly we do this. We do this every year." And if you do that consistently, not perfectly, like you said. When that time comes, and really 6,570 days seems like a lot. From raising two kids, and five grandkids, it goes quick, it goes pretty quick. And, so, if you're not intentional... The other thing I guess we ought to say, if someone's listening, today, and they think, "Oh, my gosh, I blew it. My kid's 13, or my kid's 15." Can you start there?

Nellie: Absolutely, you could start there. I mean, we've all seen and heard some of those stories, even of children out of The 6570. That, then, have some direction maybe in their 40s, 50s, 60s, from their parents before they pass or what have you. But when we're thinking about, "What can I do in order to set my child up for success in life?" And, again, that success is a private, unique, brand of whatever that success means for that child and that family. 

And, so, how can I set them up for success? I promise you it must include their worth, their self-esteem, and their confidence. I cannot think of anything, and I've been doing this for a long time, now, I cannot think of anything in life that you could label as success. Even the most unique forms of it that don't include those things. Because you have to be able to show up and be a leader of yourself. In order to go out into the world and do what you were uniquely created to do. And that's the foundation that's required for that.

Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good. So, well, let's talk about personal favorites that you guys do, that you think, just a couple of things there. I know if any kids are listening to this with their parents, and when you said ice cream dinner night. They probably went and put that on the refrigerator somewhere. But what are some of your favorites that you guys have done that really feel like you've helped accomplish what you want to accomplish with these kids?

Nellie: Well, one-on-one time is for sure one of the biggest things that we have done. And then, as far as siblings go, I think, it's really important that siblings form a bond, too, and really fill their role as a sibling. Understanding you are this person's brother or sister, and this is one of the roles of your life. So how can you show up for that?

A lot of times, it's just like, "Oh, my kids don't get along, they can't stand each other." Well, have they ever really dived into their role? And one of the ways that you could do that, and we've had to do this several times. If I'm talking with one of my kids, I'm like, "You know what, I really actually need some help with your sister right now.

She's experiencing some things that I know you've experienced too, and I know it was hard to walk through. Do you think that you could help me help her?"

Dr. Kim: I love that.

Nellie: And that can, really, quickly, drop walls of frustration or hierarchy and be like, "Yes, I can help her. I can help her; I can do that." Because then they're given responsibility, they are given something of worth in order to give to another sibling. So that's something that we have definitely done several times. And then sister nights or sibling nights, are just fun. Especially, when they get older and one or more of them can drive, they can go to the movies. They can go on little dates or whatever like that. 

But just really fostering and encouraging that time with siblings. Because, let's face it, at some point, if all goes as planned, they're going to be the ones left here after their parents are passed on. And, so, you want that to be a strong foundation of your family as well. And whatever is being built now, it goes back to that brain chemistry, again. Whatever's being built now is going to have lasting effects later on.

And, so, if you're really fostering a powerful relationship now between siblings, that will last longer than, "Oh, they'll get along when they're adults, even though they fight like cats and dogs now." That's probably not going to be the case. If they're fighting like cats and dogs now, it will keep echoing on into the future as well.

Dr. Kim: Well, before we went live, you were talking about your three daughters that are going to be at home when the oldest leaves for college, this fall. And you just talked about how much they're going to miss her. And I think it's just a picture of the things that you guys have done well to have that. They're not going, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad she's gone. Could she go earlier?" It's like they're going to miss her and they value her in that relationship.

And I think that, as parents, we want all that. I wanted my kids to be friends when they got older. To have that connection at that young age that's just very special. Because they're brother and sister, or sisters, or brothers, those kinds of things. Yes, that's so good, I love that.

Nellie: Oh, yes.

Dr. Kim: So your kids are pretty close together in age. So let's talk a little bit about engaging kids say that, and you can use yours, where they're just a few years apart. To what about that family that has a child every five years. And, so, they're really spread out in that. Any ideas or any tips for them?

Nellie: Absolutely, and that was my family growing up. So I'm nine and eleven years younger than my brother and sister. And I left home, I went to college early, at 17, so they were really young when I left. And looking back, I wish we would have been able to see each other a lot more often during their childhood, and adolescence, and my young adulthood, and it didn't happen. But I have seen families where it did and that relationship is really fostered and nurtured during that time.

And, so, there's another family I work with and they have a 13-year-old and a two-year-old. And, so, aside from, "Oh, great, we have free childcare in the house now." Which often happens. But it's also, "Hey, can you help me with this?"

And doing things with them and still doing the one-on-one time with the older child. And really just loving, "Do you remember when you were this age, too?" And as they're going along, just helping nurture that relationship and coming back, and not being a second mother or a second father by any stretch of the imagination. But also just coming in and being a third set of hands, and really helping to raise that child.

One of the things that you run into with last children, like my youngest or what have you, is that the youngest ones are typically the most wild. Because they have the license to baby for longer. Because they weren't kicked out of the nest, so to speak, like others were. And, so, when you have that, though, I really recommend that you find someone even outside of the home. That they can play that big sister or big brother role with. So that they understand that they are growing up and this is what a child looks like.

And, so, we've done that with I can think of at least three or four kids. That have come into our lives, that we help take care of that are younger than my youngest for that reason. One of the reasons that we do that. So that she can see, "Oh, wait, I'm a nurturer and I can be a big grown-up here, too." So just something I recommend if you have a big distance between your kids there, too.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. And we talk a lot, at Awesome Marriage, about how we're modeling marriage for our kids. We're also modeling parenting for them, too, and the more things that we do that help them be healthy adults as they grow. That gives them a foundation to do the same thing and carry that on with their kids.

Nellie: Yes, 100%.

Dr. Kim: It's so good. Kids get older. I remember our kids; it was so easy to have family dinner every night for a long time. And then it was always like, "Oh, my gosh, we got to look at the first week of everybody's schedule. Can we get one night this week?" And you mentioned the dog walks, I mean, being creative with that.

How can they make the most of the time that they do have? Because it seems like the older they get, well, they're more involved, usually, with friends. Once they begin driving, their schedules, all the things that we want them, most of them, to do, and to enjoy that, and to grow in that. So how do you make the most of that time, when your kids are in those busier schedules?

Nellie: Yes, and that is very true. I have four kids that are all working right now, and so the calendar is insane. And who's home when? I don't know, it's all crazy. But when you do see them, and let me preface this by saying, too, that the average amount of quality time in an American family today is 15 minutes a day. 15 minutes a day of quality time.

So what I really encourage people to do is figure out their time. Whether that's a family schedule or whatever, and just have it so you understand we actually have more free time than we think that we do. And there's a great, I work with it with my clients, but it's a do a pie chart that has 24 sections on it, that's a day. And then you want to shade in eight hours for sleep. You want to shade in whatever hours you need for work and commuting.

If you have a morning routine, I know I do, shade that in and maybe a nighttime routine or whatever, shade that into.

Typically, you're going to be left with like three or four hours still. And you're like, "I don't have three to four hours of free time a day, you actually do. We just are so good at filling it in our hustle culture that we are in today.

And, so, once we understand that and work on that with our kids, too. You can, generally, find some time that's more than 15 minutes in there to just do something like have a meal, go on a walk. Where we live now, we have a golf cart, so go on a golf cart ride, enjoy, go on a walk. Just do something together and enjoy that. So number one is time management. 

Number two is when you do have conversations, ask questions that cannot be answered with one word. So say things like, "Oh, can you describe this or that or whatever?"

Or, "Can you tell me more about?"

Or, "What happened at such and such?"

And if none of those are working and you're still getting the fine, "I'm fine".

"I don't know" those type of things. Then really be specific and get down to it and say, "Can you tell me three things that made you laugh today?"

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm, I love that.

Nellie: And then just really get very specific, and then there's three things that they will tell you. And they might be snarky about it at first, but laugh with them, break the ice. And maybe a deeper or a better conversation can come from there. But, yes, ask them things, not just like, "How was your day?"

"Good."

"Did you want dinner at six?"

"Yes."

You want to avoid those types of, I wouldn't even call them conversations, those types of questions that are just one word answers. Really get into it and have them explore their vocabulary a little bit more. And if they are struggling, ask them specifically two things or three things.

Dr. Kim: I think that's so good, and when you said about teenagers. And, especially, the families that, maybe, decide, "Okay, we're going to start this real late, but we're going to start it." And you might get that push back, but as parents, we just got to persevere. We got to get past that. We can't let them, whatever it is, where they think they've won.

Nellie: Outweighed, outplayed, outlasted.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and then for them to, finally, see there's value in this and that's where you want to get. But sometimes it takes a while to get there, I think.

Nellie: Well, even it was funny speaking with all these parents, recently, over my last couple of days. And they said, "Family weekend is going to be coming up in September." And you can ask your child, "So do you want us to come?" And the speaker was like, "Some of you might get a no. Some of you might get a, 'No, it's okay, I just saw you in August, you don't need to come, or anything like that.'" Or just a no. 

And she said, "But every time then family weekend comes around, and that child is sitting there without their family. Seeing all these kids with their families and going, "Mh-hmm, maybe, I should have made a different choice." And then they call and they either say sorry or just even have a conversation, to hear the people that love and care about them and have been there to protect them this whole time.

And, so, they will have walls up, it's part of their independence. It's part of their brain chemistry that is being developed right now. They will have walls, but it doesn't mean that we can't help climb over the walls. We can't knock on the walls and say, "Hey, I'm right here. You don't need to have a wall between us. I'm a safe place. This relationship, you and me, this is safe." And, so, yes, just making them comfortable.

Dr. Kim: That's cool. And there was a time, I was trying to think how old my son was, when he came to me to thank me for the way he was raised. But he was, probably, I think, it was right before he got married. He was probably 23 or 24. And he said, "I just want you to know all those times when I tried to outweigh you, or tried to get my way over your guys' ways, thank you for hanging in there."

And, so, I think you may not get that from them right now, but I think one day you will. And, especially, those that are starting a little late in it. You'll, probably, get more resistance than if you start when they're young. And the couples that have young kids, just encouraging them to begin that right now.

Nellie: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: Well, you've said, a couple of times, a term that I haven't heard, that I've loved, and you said “hustle culture” and I love that. Did you come up with that? I just think it's such a vivid picture of where we are today.

Nellie: It is. I came up with that because I saw this coffee mug and it just said, "Hustle” on it in gold letters with confetti all over it. And I was like, "Hustling is not fun. Why are we celebrating this?" I hate hustling. I do it quite often because like this week my husband is out of town, we have orientation, the kids are working, there are sleepovers, all of this. I've been hustling for the last two days. And let me tell you, I am exhausted and all of the things. This is not something I want to stick on a mug and drink my tea out of. 

But that really is a hustle life, hustle culture, that I see really celebrated out there. But the more we're hustling, the less we're thinking. And in a world where critical thinking is, really, systematically, being taken away more and more, we have to be very intentional about giving ourselves time to think every day.

Because if we are stuck in this hustle culture, we're just on the conveyor belt that is going to wherever it's going to. We don't even know half the time.

Instead of saying, "Hold on, where am I going right now? Is this actually where I want to go?" And stepping off. And, so, yes, hustle culture can be really dangerous.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and to know that we have a choice, we really do have a choice. We don't have to buy into all that stuff, all the time.

Nellie: Yes.

Dr. Kim: Last question, about your marriage. What are you loving about your marriage right now, in this stage?

Nellie: Honestly, this is such a huge time of transition for us. And, so, I think the biggest thing that I'm just really embracing right now, is the fact that we're going through this transition together. Every day we get in, and there was this point, we're both youth leaders at our church. And we were walking into our church a couple of weeks ago, and we just looked at each other and I was like, "You ready to do the 95th hard thing this week together?"

And he was like, "Yes, let's go." What we're doing right now, it just is life right now in the transitions and the hard things that we're going through, but we're going through them together. That is, probably, my favorite thing right now.

Dr. Kim: I love that, and I think that was God's intent. That you don't have to share, if you're in a marriage, you don't have to share that alone. You can walk through things together.

Nellie: Yes.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. So where can our listeners find out more about you? Where's the best place to find you?

Nellie: I love to keep it simple. So everything that you would need can be found on my website nellieharden.com. My communities, my master classes, my resources, the program called Take the Lead, all of that can be found on my website.

Dr. Kim: I was on there, there's so much good stuff. And one of the things, our team read the article you did for Focus on the Family, on Family on the Rocks, and just loved it, just raved about it, all that kind of good stuff. So thanks for your time. I love what you do. I think there's so much good golden nuggets in what we talked about today that can help so many families, and I appreciate taking time to be with us.

Nellie: Oh, thank you so much. This was a great conversation.

Dr. Kim: Thanks.

[01:00:25] < Outro >

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