Life-Giving Rhythms: Husbands' Edition with Justin Whitmel Earley | Ep. 569
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to the Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few on the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationships.
Dr. Kim: Well, welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. As we approach a new school year, it's time to look at the rhythms that we have in our home. Today Justin Earley joins me on the podcast. He is a lawyer, a speaker, an author. He's married to his wife, Lauren, and they have four boys, and we're going to talk about his two books, two of his books, Habits of the Household and Made for People.
If you feel like you are struggling with friendships. If you feel like you're struggling with some ruts you've gotten in at home, with your family and things like that, you're going to love this podcast. Justin is a great guy, so let's go to the studio right now. Well, Justin, I'm so excited to welcome you to the Awesome Marriage Podcast. Thank you for saying yes. It's great to see you, and meet you, and get to spend time with you, today.
Justin: You are most welcome. I'm so happy to be here, Dr. Kim.
Dr. Kim: We'll just jump right into the book, Habits of the Household. This book gives so many really good habits that really help families. What was the catalyst? What spurred you to write this particular book?
Justin: Catalyst was crisis; which has been true for a lot of my writings, actually, so far. Some problem. And then I'm like, "Lord, how am I going to fix this?" But Habits of the Household, in particular, was a crisis in the hallway when I had three boys, I have four now. But I had three boys, I was putting them to bed one night, and the bedtime is just as chaotic as most people with three boys have. We have bathwater on the floor. Wrestling matches starting in the bedrooms. I was making bodily threats if people didn't get their teeth brushed and put their pajamas on.
It was just one of those ordinary nights. And I remember muscling my kids to bed, if you will, shutting the door and then standing in the hallway and realizing just that. That this was an ordinary night. Where I told them, briefly, God loves you and I do too.
But that was following a half an hour struggle of me yelling and them misbehaving. And it just made me reflect, in a way that was a little uncomfortable, that this is the ordinary my kids live with. The habits that they live with are these sort of habits of friction, and me raising my voice. And I really felt busted up about that, probably, because I was a guy who just wrote a book about technology and work habits, as spiritual disciplines.
So I was into the importance of habits and how they form us, spiritually. But I realized that night in the hallway I had not applied this to my family. And, so, I talked with my pastor about this, and he recommended trying a bedtime liturgy. Which sounded complicated even to me and, probably, sounds complicated to the listeners. But, basically, it was this idea of having some sort of back and forth prayer routine, with the boys, as I put them down. He said it had helped him.
So I tried it, and the first night it did not go well. But any habit is hard at first. I, basically, wrote this back and forth questions with my boys about whether God loves them no matter what bad things they do, and they say, "Yes". And whether God loves them no matter what good things they do, and they say, "Yes". Then I say, "Who else loves you like that?" It was a couple of questions like this, and at first it was just as hard as anything else. They didn't know the right answers. I forgot what I was going to ask.
But an incredible thing happened a couple of weeks in. They're lying in bed one night, and one of my sons says, "Can we have our bedtime blessing now?" And we share this little back and forth about God's love for them, no matter what good or bad things they do, and my love for them no matter what good or bad things they do. And I remember shutting the hallway door that night and thinking, "Wow, the circumstances were exactly the same."
There was still misbehavior, on my part, and there's still bathwater on the floor. But my reactions were entirely different because of this new routine of a bedtime liturgy. And that's when it clicked, for me, that the power of a good parenting habit is that it changes our ordinary knee-jerk reactions to regular circumstances. And thus opens up these moments where we can respond with grace and, actually, teach the love of God and really receive the unconditional love of God, in those moments.
And, so, once you realize that your household is going to be filled with habits. Everybody has habits, everybody has routines. The next step is thinking, "Well, why don't I pick them on purpose?" And that was the night where I realized I need to start picking them on purpose. And Habits of the Household, the book, was born in the wake of that evening.
Dr. Kim: That's so good because I think we get stuck in the rut you were in. It's so easy to do that night after night, and not take the time to do something different.
Justin: That's right, and it's easy to have hallway moments like I did. Where you realize, "Oh, my gosh, we're in a bad spot." That's easy, and it's important for anybody listening to know that is so common to all of us. We all realize we're in bad spots when it comes to our habits. And you might hear something like habits, and habits of the household or spiritual formation in the house, and think "This is about extra things you have to do."
But I just want to be really clear to everybody. I think this should be seen as a grace opportunity. I mean, this is the idea that you're not stuck with the rhythms that you have, and that Jesus, actually, wants to change your ordinary day-to-day and that you can work with Him to do that. That's a real gracious call forward, not a burden.
So I just want to encourage anybody. The burden is sticking with what you have. The burden is doing nothing. But walking forward into some new household habits, that's actually a wonderful opportunity of newness.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. I'm glad you shared that it wasn't magic. It didn't happen great the first night because it's, probably, not going to. Plus, you've got young boys there that still, probably, want to wrestle, and have water fights, and all that stuff. So it takes some time and intentionality. But I love it that your son said that to you, a few weeks into it, and just that meant something to him. That had to be encouraging.
Justin: It was a neat moment, and it's one of those moments that reminds me that kids are very attuned to habits. I mean, nothing is normal in a family until it is. But family is the place where the strangest things can become normal. I mean, everybody ends up with family [Inaudible 00:07:00] how did we get here?
But really, again, that can be a gracious and beautiful thing. I mean, you can make what, at first, seemed like an awkward, intentional prayer with your kids, become a normal nighttime routine and, then, they're looking for that. And that's just one way that you help them learn to look for God, in moments with their parents and in moments with each other.
Dr. Kim: So, couples that are listening, just give it a try. Maybe sitting down together and talking about it. Because, I think, bedtime, dinner time, bedtime can be a struggle for all families, sometimes.
It seems like by the end of the day, everybody's tired and you want to get the kids to bed, and they don't want to go to bed, and you've got all this stuff. And then just, "Okay, how do we change that?" I love that idea. And, obviously, it gave you a chance to not only change a habit, but to teach them and help them see God's love, and to pour into them, at that time. And you're not adding anything to it, you're just replacing something healthy for your kids, from something that wasn't as healthy for any of you.
Justin: Well, and that's a really important point right there, Dr. Kim. The whole book, Habits of the Household, it's not built around concept, chapters, of things you need to introduce, and do, and add. It's built around the normal daytime schedule that everyone already has. So if you look at the chapters, it's waking and meal times. It's conversations, bedtimes, playtime, work time, screen time.
So all the things where you already have a routine. The question that Habits of the Household is asking is, "What could you do in those moments to tilt those moments towards the great commandment; to love God and love others?" And the household is the place you're learning that or not.
The household is the place where we learn all the important, intangible, things about how to love each other. And, so, this is entirely about the realm of formation. The people we become in the household, and it's not really looking, I mean, everybody feels busy. Everybody feels like we already got enough to do.
This is looking at the things that you're already doing and saying, "How could you ask Jesus, 'Help me do this a little differently.'" So that we can form our spiritual life in the home, together, to look a little bit more like the love of God and neighbor, and just looking at ordinary moments. And that's what I love about this stuff.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I do, too. You mentioned the busyness, which I think if you ask 100 people, a day, how they're doing. You'll, probably, get 90 busies, as your answer. I mean, it's just kind of our go-to word now. And, so, to think that they don't have to be stuck with that. But I think, too, for some people that are listening and watching that think, "Ah, I don't know if I could that." It just overwhelms them thinking about doing something different and you're not adding something in. But they've got to be intentional about doing something different, right?
Justin: That's absolutely right. So if somebody comes and says, "How can I realistically do this? I'm already so busy." I would say remember what I just said a second ago. The hard thing is to do nothing. The hard thing is to keep on with the rhythms you have. Because those are the busy, crushing, exhausting rhythms, and that's why you feel like you do. That's why I feel like I did.
What is different, and if you read Habits of the Household, in chapter one on waking, you're going to read about two habits Scripture before Phone, and morning prayer with the kids. And both of these are, actually, designed to interrupt the churn of busyness, slow you down just a second and say, "How can I lift my head up and then look out?"
So, Scripture before phone, for example, it's one of the most powerful short, but important morning routines that I ever had. And I tell a lot of people about this, and lots of people do it. And it's just this idea that before you turn to your phone, look at the Scripture first. And I do this actually just by keeping my phone out of my morning routine, until after I drop the kids off at school. And, then, I do a little Scripture before I get to the office.
Some people do it first thing in the morning, when they wake up before their kids. But whatever it is, it's saying, "All right, if I go to my inbox, if I go to social media, if I go to the to-do list. I'm going to start thinking about, 'What do I need to do today? Who do I to meet to make happy today? Who do I need to be like today?'" And all of those are fine, if you realize that you're loved by God and you're going out to serve the world in love.
But most times we look at those things and we just start thinking, "How can I justify my existence?"
"How can I get love today?"
"Who do I need to make happy today?" And I'm just trying to offer a simple flip of saying, "Go look first and see that God loves you no matter what." Just like you tell your kids, at bedtime. And, then, go to your phone and look to all the things that you need to do, and that simple flip is huge. And that slows down some of the busyness that you're experiencing.
Likewise, a short morning prayer with your kids. We do it at the door, before we all walk out to drop off for school. It's just this very short, Dr. Kim, I'm talking like 15 to 30 second moments. We did it this morning, where we just held hands in the foyer, said a little prayer together about let us serve you and love you today, and then we hurry on to school. And those are just two little rhythms that are not going to add a lot of time to your morning routine, but they're going to completely reshape the feel of it.
And we are not some super spiritual, full-time ministry family that does everything ideally. No, if you come to our house right now, it's messy, messes on the floors. There's dirty dishes in the sink. And if you would look at our morning prayer, you'd see kids squirming and pulling on each other's hands. But, nonetheless, it's in that mess that Jesus works in the family. So it doesn't have to be pretty. Doing something is better than nothing, and these little habits, actually, really do change the feel of the household.
Dr. Kim: I love all of that, and I've talked to people about that because so many people grab their phone first thing. And most of them, my experience has been it's something negative. They see something or they start, it may not be negative, it's like, "Oh, my gosh, I've got to do this." And that kind of thing.
And, so, you just start. And to take the time just to be in God's Word to have something positive in your life, is so good. Just to start on that and then what you're doing, I love what you said with the prayer for the kids. And husbands, I think, we struggle with that, as guys, sometimes. "Well, I'm not a preacher, I don't know how can I pray with my kids?"
But you made it so simple, and you're also focusing them on what does God have for you today? How do we serve Him today? And, so, repeating that, just pours that into them and helps them look at, probably, the challenges and things they have during the day, to begin to reframe those differently. Does that make sense?
Justin: Absolutely. And I just think there's low-hanging fruit for you to become a person who does something rather than nothing, in your household. And I think about this for, you mentioned dads, I'm a dad, so dads specifically. We want to be people who spiritually lead in the home. But that can be an overwhelming thought, like, "Where do I start? I'm not a Bible teacher. I'm not this or that."
But this goes for moms and dads, but since I'm a dad, I'll just speak directly to the dads. The gift it is for your children, for them to have heard the Bible read in your voice is priceless. I mean, the gift it is to your children for them to hear you pray with them is invaluable. And these are not things you have to be expert at.
These are just things that you have to do something rather than nothing. And whether it's starting a little bedtime prayer or doing a weekly family devotion, and we could talk about how simple that, actually, is if you try it. Those are things that create memories in your family and really spiritual legacies, and you don't have to be good at them.
In fact, that's precisely the point that Jesus loves messy sinners like us. And that He takes our efforts that are broken, and halting, and embarrassing, and He says, "I'm going to use that. I'm going to do something with that." You're setting an example of the gospel when you do things like that. Because you show your kids you don't have to be expert Christians to do something. You just have to be hungry sinners who want Jesus.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and you want them to do that when they have kids. And, so, you're putting something in their minds, a model, that will be so healthy for them when they're in the position that you're in today. I love that.
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Dr. Kim: Okay, but you did say we get a little squirming sometimes. So people that say, "Okay, we're going to try this." But then say they get a little pushback from the kids. Maybe one of those kids is a teenager, or a couple of them are teenagers, and they may not be as open because we didn't start up when they were five. And, so, now we're trying to bring something in. What would you say to them?
Justin: Oh, yes, we could go a lot of ways with this. But I'll say think about how Jesus was full of grace and truth, and you'll be onto something. So on the truth side of it, you are the parent. So you are in charge of stewarding your household rhythms. And I'm saying in charge because you are the authority, so you get to choose. But stewarding, think of it as that, it's not your regime to be an authoritarian leader over. But you are the one who gets to steward this family. So you get to pick the habits, and I think that's really important.
If it's with little kids, think about the bedtime liturgy moment. Yes, it's awkward, it's halting, you got to figure it out. But kids get used to it really quick. If it's more of an adolescent teenager. It's just remembering you are still the one who's responsible for setting boundaries, even when they're not liked, appreciated, or even openly mocked. That is your role, to do good things for your children, even when you're not appreciated.
Think about the life of Christ. He's doing something extraordinary for us, but He is being crucified while doing it. So that is a self-sacrificial role. Your kids need healthy rhythms, guides, and boundaries, and those are going to loosen over time, as they get older.
But when they're in your house, you are the one in charge of this. So that's the truth. And then the grace side of it is my kids don't get an option, whether to come to the door and do morning prayer with us. But if they're pulling on each other's hands or giggling to their brother, in the middle of the prayer. There's a big fuzzy line of what I don't want them to remember is that I was the authoritarian, mad, spiritual father who commanded silence during family devotions.
No, I mean, I just think about this, Dr. Kim, Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me." So I wish I knew more about this story. I wish I had it on video. I wish I had the whole transcript. What were they doing? But apparently the kids wanted to come to Him.
So there must have been something about Jesus that was inviting or funny. I got to imagine He was making the kids laugh, as much as he was blessing them.
So thinking about being a person who even in the family devotion moments, or in the conversations, or morning prayers, are being gentle and patient with your kids. You have to have hard conversations with your teenagers. But you can still do it with jokes, smiles, laughs, and connections.
So I think in between those two is where you get to the good, humble role of a parent. Where you say, "I'm picking the habits here while we're under my roof. But I'm going to smile while I do it and, hopefully, you feel invited into it." I think set your compass there at grace and truth, and you'll figure out the rest.
Dr. Kim: I think it's so good. Yes, because you don't want your kids to think, "Oh, my gosh, I'm not doing that." I hated it when dad made us do that, I think, that happens sometimes.
Justin: Yes, our kids are going to grow up and be exactly like us. We're going to have some commentary on how our parents did things. But if you do something rather than nothing and aim with some graciousness to it, then you can be forgiven for your faults. You're a sinner, too.
Dr. Kim: Well, and one thing I've seen in my kids is as they got older and begin to have their own families. That they have both, at times, said to me, "I didn't really appreciate that when you did it, but thank you." And, so, those can come later on, they really can, and you're right. One thing that we did as our kids got older that helped, because we always had a prayer time at bedtime, and we just kind of all the way through.
But we let them begin to lead. And all the way through, we would let them, "Is there something you want us to pray for or we should be praying about as a family?" So we prayed for dogs that were sick of their friends. We prayed for turtles that were sick. We prayed for grandparents, all that kind of stuff.
But I think it helped them see to be involved, too, in that and to set that example for them, too. I love all the things that you're saying because you want that culture of this is normal. It's normal for us to pray. It's normal for us to talk about how much God loves us.
Justin: I think that's one wonderful way to summarize the whole power here. Is just to make it normal, to look for spiritual moments in the ordinary. If you're doing that, you're on the path to something wonderful.
Dr. Kim: Nancy and I just got caught up, this last few months, on The Chosen. We had not watched it before, the video about Jesus' life and the disciples. But when you're saying that, the scene that's in there, it's in season one, when the children do come to Him, are around Him. And it was exactly how you were saying, He was laughing, He was talking with them. They were excited to be around Him, and I love that picture.
Because, sometimes, we just put Him in a box that He doesn't belong in, that He laughs. And all those things were important to Him, and He gave such a model for that and how kids loved Him so much, it's so cool. Very good. So I think spiritual leadership for men is tough, and a lot of men are scared about it.
So what would you say to a husband or a dad, that feels defeated in this? Maybe he's tried a few times, or maybe he wants to try it. He just hadn't been able to get over that hump. What would you say to him?
Justin: I'd say two things. Habits are the place to start, and your habits are the first place to start.
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's good,
Justin: And I say that because there can be a big canyon-sized barrier, that you might feel between where you are and becoming a spiritual leader. And you might think, "How do I ever cross this? I'm just not that kind of person." Well, first, think small. You don't have to be the theologian who's parsing complicated passages of Scripture at dinner time, for your children. That's not, necessarily, what this means at all. Nor is that, necessarily, what they need.
Dr. Kim: Right.
Justin: They need you to be the person who can pray with your children or can talk about Scripture with your children, is really just a matter of you setting aside one bedtime or one dinner time a week and doing it. It is not rocket science.
For example, saying, "On Wednesday nights, after dinner, we're going to hang around the table for an extra ten minutes." Maybe put out dessert to keep everybody there and say, "Let's talk about this prayer together. Let's talk about this passage of Scripture together." Ten minutes. Ask your kids what they want to pray for, share prayer requests yourself. That is really low-hanging fruit, and that is the difference between you doing something and you doing nothing, as I mentioned earlier.
So thinking in habits is, actually, relieving. Because you're no longer thinking, "How do I become that kind of person?" Well, you become that kind of person by doing something every week or every day, and it can be something small, and habits aggregate. You exercise like that once a week, your body's going to start changing shape. You do a family devotion like that, once a week, your family is going to start changing shape.
The second part of that, though, is think about your habits, too. Because I think what really lies in between a lot of men and spiritual leadership is not the habits of their household, but the habits of their own heart. I mean, you're never going to disciple your children well, unless you're actually a disciple of Jesus. And, so, I really want to encourage any parent listening to think about this. You cannot be a parent to your children until you are a child of God.
First, you have to understand that you are a child of God being parented by Him. And then that is when you start to turn to your children and parent well. If it was only that linear, it'd be simple. But the point is, think about your own Scripture before phone. Think about your own, when are you praying? Do you have a routine of prayer? And if you're like, "I have none of that." Well, start with Scripture before phone and a kneeling prayer by your bed at night.
Two simple habits that will bookend your day with something and watch, the Lord is faithful to work. When you knock, coming to find Him and saying, "Hey, I'm going to read the Bible, He'll find you." And whether you kneel or not, or do whatever or not, when you open your mouth to pray, He's interested.
So thinking about your habits and family habits. I'd say those are the low-hanging fruits that help you move from a dad who does nothing, in your family. To a dad who's beginning to work towards spiritual leadership, and that is an incredible gift to your wife and your kids.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and it's not rocket science. It's just being willing to take that step, isn't it? Just take that step. And I agree with you, I tell people all the time, "If you just ask God in, He is going to show up." He's not going to go, "I'm busy somewhere else." He will be there and show up, and just have that confidence. And you may fumble around, or stutter, or whatever, but it's step one.
Justin: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Just think if you do it every day, where you could be in a month or a year later, and where your family will be. It's just putting that habit in and being consistent with it.
Justin: Yes, and remember that the stumbling is just an opportunity for you to practice grace, on display, with your family. To give grace to yourself and give grace to your family. That's a lot of it here. It's just remembering that being a Christian is not about performing. It's about receiving grace and stumbling in front of your family, that's okay for a spiritual leader. In fact, it's exactly what a good spiritual leader looks like.
Dr. Kim: I think so, too. And it gives them permission to stumble, at some point. They just see you trying, and I think they appreciate that. So let's go to the other side, let's talk about the wife or a mom. And I've talked to so many women, they want their husband to lead spiritually, but he just hasn't yet. What should she do in those situations?
Justin: I honestly think that's a harder question. Not just because I relate, I've heard so many people come up and say, "Hey, I read your book. I want to do all these things, but my husband's just not interested." Sometimes their husband's standing right there, and I want to be like "Tell him to come talk to me." But, one, I just want to honor that mom or that wife's faithfulness.
It is not uncommon for us to feel like our spouse could do a little more or change a little more. In fact, that's the universal feeling of most all spouses. We wish something was a little different. So knowing you're not way out in left field. But also just honoring what that urge means. That you want to see him and your children grow closer to the Lord.
So I just want to say keep on yearning and keep on praying. That will, probably, be the most important thing that you do. Setting an example of a yearning to see spiritual growth for your family, and continue praying for that.
Practically speaking, I would say trying to read a book like Habits of the Household, or even read a chapter with a couple friend or something, and just start these conversations, that's often an amazing opportunity. And we're actually releasing a video series for Habits of the Household, to help people enter it through a different means.
If they feel like they don't have time to read or they don't have the book or something. If you can figure out a way, I'm talking to that mom or that wife, to say, "Hey, let's think about this together. Let's have a conversation on this together." And it makes it more like something you want to think through with them, and less another task on the HoneyDew list that you're not satisfied with.
I think just practically speaking, that's a great way to get the conversation started, and invite some other people into it. Which is why I say if you can do that with a friend, that's really helpful. Because I'll just tell you, in my own personal experience, we've had friends with whom there are feelings like this. Where I'm like, "I wish so and so would do more."
"I wish so and so would pick up." And those are tough things to hear from your spouse. But when you get in a conversation with couples and you all start talking about it, and you feel like this is something we're doing together. That's a different way to start the conversation, and often that's a really productive way. So keep praying, keep yearning, but also see if you can spark a conversation like that.
Dr. Kim: I love that, and I know some moms just give up. And, so, they start doing it themselves. And what you're suggesting is so much better because you're not giving up on him, or giving him a pass, or whatever that looks like in that situation.
Justin: Well, Dr. Kim, that's worth, just an Amen. I mean, never give up, and I will tell you, if you read my first book, The Common Rule, it starts with my own collapse. When I really collapsed early in my career as a lawyer, completely mentally, physically, spiritually. And I'll tell you, my wife, in that time, was not only the opposite of giving up, she didn't give up, but she also wouldn't let me give up on me.
I remember the most valuable thing she did for me, during that time, was continue to hold out a belief that I was going to get better. That I had a future, even, when I didn't believe I have one. And that's different than saying, "You got to do this."
That's just saying, "I'm not giving up on us. Jesus is not giving up on you, I'm not giving up on you. I'm going to believe that you have an alternate future than what you're experiencing right now." That's a powerful signal of faith in your spouse, and it's a way of calling them forward. Where it's really just saying, "Hey, I'm not calling you forward, but I believe that Jesus is, and I'm going to keep hoping for that." And my wife has done that for me, and that was an incredible gift in that time.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. Thanks for sharing that because I think that's so important. Okay, let's switch to the other book Made for People, the new book, Why We Drift into Loneliness and How to Fight for a Life of Friendship. Which is such an important topic coming out of COVID, for sure. Lots of us just have friendships that are pretty shallow, that don't fulfill our need for community. How do we deepen those existing friendships that we've got?
Justin: Yes, well, I said earlier the Habits of the Household came out of crisis. This book, actually, came out of blessing because I have found myself praise God, since I really started following Jesus in late high school, early college. Just surrounded by really good friends who have kept me in the faith.
This book came out of a realization, post-COVID, that we were dying, literally and metaphorically, from loneliness. But it, actually, didn't start during COVID It, actually, started earlier than COVID. So if you look at a lot of the stats on friendship and loneliness, you'll see that the American life expectancy, actually, around 2016, 2017 started going down.
So we're actually living shorter lives before COVID, and research has started to show that a lot of these are coming from what we call the epidemic of loneliness. The health consequences of living isolated lives. And, so, I'm keying off, what are some steps to deepen friendships? It's, actually, a spiritual and physical crisis that we need to pay attention to, but it is not usually just solitude.
Almost everybody has existing relationships in their life. But also everybody feels like nobody really knows them. So when we talk about loneliness, we're really talking about the feeling of having a lot of people around, but not being known by anybody.
So what I argue in this book is that to be known and loved by a couple of close people. That is not only the definition of friendship, but it is also the definition of the gospel in some ways. That Jesus knows us fully and loves us anyway, is the gift of His grace in our life. That is what He's done for us in His life, death, and resurrection.
And, so, what I want to push people towards is figuring out how to have a couple of relationships, where you really feel completely known and, yet, still loved. Well, how do we get there? How do we deepen those existing friendships?
I'm going to start every time with vulnerability. You need to figure out how to open yourself up to actually be known, by those couple of friends that you have. And, sometimes, that's crossing the barrier from saying, "Hey, I've never really told you about X in my life."
Or, "I often say I'm struggling in my marriage, but what I really mean is, blah, blah, blah." All good things come from beginning to tell the whole truth, the real truth, and that catalyzes friendship. So if you're out there thinking, "Yes, I've got a couple of people in my life but they don't really know me."
The place to start is by having good, honest, conversations with them. And it can start with small ones, but a couple of good, real conversations takes people from just people who know about each other to people who know each other, and then you are actually onto something.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that. I want to take that into marriage because almost every couple I see says they want their spouse to be their best friend. And, so, that step of vulnerability is so important in a marriage. I think in a marriage you need to know that he or she is there and they know everything, and they love me anyway. And once you establish that in marriage, it's a step to establishing it with one or two other people, and you're not going to have 40 people. I don't want 40 people that I'm that way with.
Justin: That's right.
Dr. Kim: No, I want a couple that I know will always be there for me and love me, and I can share things with them, and vulnerabilities. I think if we have one or two people like that and then our spouse, it makes such a difference.
Justin: Yes, oh, my gosh, it changes everything. And it's interesting you say a lot of spouses want their spouse to be their best friend. I mean it's true. When you're the covenant partner of somebody like that, there should be physical and emotional intimacy, and vulnerability. And that creates an incredibly unique relationship and we call it marriage.
The thing that I would nuance, though, and say is that if your spouse is your only best friend, you, probably, have an issue. Because one of the things that I think is my greatest gift to Lauren is that I keep other male friendships close. And one of her greatest gifts to me, is that she keeps other female friendships close. And I would say that we can't really be the best spouses that we can be to each other, until we have strong friendships outside of our marriage that help keep our marriage.
I mean that has made a huge difference when we get to some fights, or some problems, or places where we don't feel known or just confused or conflicted. And, yet, other friendships can speak into that, it's an incredible gift. So I would honor that and say look for your spouse to be your best friend. Have some other best friends, too. It's not going to be 40 people but two to four would be just great.
Dr. Kim: I agree. I have two guys and one, probably, is closer than the other. But I know that I can tell him anything, and I know he loves me enough that if I'm way off track he's going to get in my face and say, "What are you doing? What are you thinking? Look at it this way." And he can say things to me that I, probably, wouldn't hear as well from Nancy, sometimes, honestly, because he's a guy and I think he relates to it.
Justin: Nail on the head. If you look at Made for People, the first two chapters, the reader is going to see are Vulnerability and Honesty. And the vulnerability is the idea of you actually being able to say what you need to and what you mean. And, then, honesty is the ability to hear it back, and have somebody say to you, "Wait, you need to..." That idea that we can talk to each other and tell the truth, I mean, it's almost just silly common sense of what makes deep relationships. And, yet, it is the opposite of common practice.
Most of us live lives that are mediated by technology. Where we don't really tell the truth about everything in our lives, and where we don't speak back honestly because of fear of being judged. And what I tell people is, obviously, I'm kind of a habit guy. I like thinking in habits. You can't reduce friendship to a habit. It's more of an art than it's a relationship.
But if there is a habit, just meeting with somebody once a week, for an hour, and trying to tell the truth about your lives. You might call it a small group accountability. You might call it just having a drink on the back porch with your friend, whatever it is. You need to sleep seven to nine hours a night. You have to work a bunch of hours a day. There's a lot of things you have to do a lot.
But one hour of friendship, a week, will change the entire rest of your life. Because you will find a place, a relationship where you are known and loved anyway. And you'll start to realize, oh my gosh, the gospel is being embodied in this relationship, and that changes your spiritual walk.
That's why I want to convince people that we should think of friendship with all the spirituality that we think of a quiet time, or prayer, or community. It is essential for our spiritual lives, and that's why, because it's an incarnation of the gospel.
Dr. Kim: So good. Well, and Jesus had; He had His three closest. He had His twelve, but then He had those three that He really shared everything with.
Justin: Absolutely, and when He describes, John 15, what He's done, and salvation for us, He actually uses friendship as the metaphor. So we have it from Jesus, himself, that there is a direct correlation between what He's doing for us and what a friend is. "I have called you friends." It's such a significant statement. Which means if we're going to become more like Jesus, we're necessarily going to look more like a friend. Those two have to go together.
Dr. Kim: So good, absolutely. And, sometimes, I think, guys, it's so easy to just talk about sports or things. And what I've found is when you are willing to and, actually, the guy who I would say is my best friend, he was vulnerable with me before I was vulnerable with him.
But I didn't go, "Well, you're a weirdo." Or something like that. It was, “I listened and how can I pray for you?" Nobody's perfect, and, sure, pick the right person. Pick someone that you know loves the Lord and is going to be able to meet you where you are. But being vulnerable, there's just nothing like it.
Justin: It catalyzes friendship, yes.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So if somebody wants to develop a lifestyle of friendship, what are some key habits that make that happen?
Justin: Well, I'll go back to two of the ones I just said. A key habit is learning to practice being vulnerable, we've kind of talked about that. A key habit is regularity, some semblance of a schedule. Where you say, "Let's meet weekly, let's meet monthly, let's even meet quarterly."
I have some great friends who I don't see except three, four times a year. But we have these rhythms of saying, "Hey, we're going to meet together for dinner, or for drinks, or for coffees, maybe every quarter." I'm a business lawyer, I think in financial quarters. But Meeting once a quarter, let's say, maybe, we meet every other month.
Those schedules, I can't emphasize enough how much an anchor they serve as in a culture where everything else is flying, and free, and you don't want to commit to anything. The power of showing up to a weekly Bible study or a monthly coffee creates friendship, where there was only connection before, and we have plenty of connection. I mean, plenty of connection. We're surrounded by people. We're connected to so many people. We're liking, and commenting, and seeing so many people.
But the power of showing up in person to a semi regular gathering and saying, "I'm going to bring my whole self, I'm going to talk, honestly, at this coffee, or hangout, or dinner." That is actually a life-changing rhythm. So you really can look to the power of a schedule, just to approximate friendship.
Justin: Then the third habit I would just say, I talk a lot in the book about naming. And naming is the idea of, maybe, talking about friendship or calling the friendship something. So I've had friends with whom we've given our friend group a name. This was more like high school and college. And it really is silly, it doesn't make sense anymore, but it changed something.
It made us feel like, "Oh, something's happening here. We're a group, we're a thing."
I've had friends we just had an awkward moment of us saying, "Hey, we should do this more often. We should meet for coffee every week. We should X." That moment of naming, the Lord is doing something here. Or just kind of saying, "I like you." We think about this in romantic relationships. We say, "Hey, we should date. We should get married."
Friendship is different, obviously, but not entirely different. To name the gift of a relationship is actually something incredibly significant. And I like to say this, actually, I don't disagree with C. S. Lewis, hardly ever. But one of the funny things that I would actually pick a bone with C. S. Lewis on is he writes in his book, The Four Loves about friendships. He says, "Friends rarely talk about their friendships, whereas lovers are constantly talking about their love." And that's true, observedly.
But I actually want to push people to say talk about your friendships a little more, name them. Say, "I want to dig deeper into this relationship." You do a powerful thing, when you signal a desire. And one of the ways I tell people to do this is read this book with somebody or listen to this podcast with somebody and say, "I heard this guy talk about the spiritual significance of friendship. You should listen to this and, then, let's get coffee and talk about it."
Your life will change. Not because of what I said, but because you named the desire with a friend to go deeper, that changes things. Jesus uses moments like that, and He uses friendships like that to change you.
Dr. Kim: Yes, just take that step. Take the step. Okay, the last question. So we did talk some about COVID, and the loneliness, and all that. So if somebody is listening, today, who really does feel lonely. What would you say is their first step?
Justin: I would say look to this church community, spiritual community that you already have. I'm not talking about anything totally new. Look for somebody in there that you would say, "I think I could trust this person." And be brave and say something, it's just that simple. Some of you are hearing this and you're thinking, "I know I need to go talk to that person about that." That's your first step.
Some of you are thinking, "I'm not even sure." Well, your first step is to go look for that person you think is trustworthy. Along the lines of the Habits of the Household, this is the paradigm I'll just move towards, from nothing to something. Do something instead of nothing, that's your first step and the Lord will honor this. I mean, He made us to live in community. He's going to look to help you with that. This is the way He wants you to grow spiritually. So just talk to somebody.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I've had people that have asked their pastor. They just go to their pastor and say, "I want a guy to connect with me, do you know a body." And a lot of times the pastor does, because maybe a week before, somebody came to him and said, "I really want to connect with somebody." So people are there.
Justin: Yes, you'll find there's a whole world of people out there wishing somebody would say the same thing to them. If you have a few misses, don't worry about it. Don't get in this place where, "Well, nobody wants to hang out with me." No, there are always misses, keep looking for somebody. You're living in a world of loneliness. We're all looking for connection.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. And, so, if people want to find more about you. I know the books, The Common Rule, The Habits of the Household, and Made for People. Those three books are available everywhere, and I'd encourage people to read them, listen to them, whatever works best for them. And you did say that you have a video series coming out on the habits?
Justin: Yes, you can look for that on my website, justinwhitmelearley.com, which you google. Justin Earley, lawyer, author, you'll find me. And, yes, we got the video series for Habits of the Household coming out early 2024. All the books you just mentioned are out. People can find me anywhere, lots of free stuff online.
If you follow me on Instagram, or Twitter, or get on my mailing list, you'll see lots of these concepts and I put out stuff for people. So come say hi, come ask questions, join the email list. I love to walk these journeys of habits, friendships, and stuff with you.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. Thank you so much for spending time, today. It's been great and I can't wait to connect again.
Justin: Thanks, Dr. Kim, this has been awesome.
[00:48:28] < Outro >
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