Lies That Keep You With Your Abuser with Dr. David E Clarke | Ep. 541
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Well, David, thank you so much for joining us today on The Awesome Marriage Podcast. You've been on before, I consider you a great friend, and thank you for spending time with us today.
David: Well, the feeling is mutual, Kim, thanks for having me on.
Dr. Kim: You're very welcome. So this new book; 20 Lies That Keep You with Your Abuser. I love the book. I love the style of it. I think it's so user-friendly, I guess I can use that word with it. It's easy to see what lie you believe, and then what Scripture says, and then some great stories, and it's very helpful. So let's go back to just the whole idea of co-dependency and how do couples become co-dependent.
David: Well, co-dependents are trained. They're trained usually by their family of origin to become a co-dependent. If it's a woman, let's say, could be a man, but it's a woman, she sees her mom being a co-dependent to her abusive dad, her narcissistic father, boom, that's 18 years of training, if not a bit more. Okay, "I'm not living in somebody else's house if this is how it works."
And, so, she learns her role. Especially if the mom never leaves and just keeps doing it; "This is how life is going to work out. Here's how you fake it. Here's how you give your whole life up." Now, also in the Christian communities, as you know, Kim, many churches, not all, but many churches also train women to be codependents.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: It's from the pulpit, it's from Sunday school. It's the Word of God used in certain ways to indicate that you're to submit no matter what, you're to stay no matter what, and if you keep loving him, he'll change. The burden's put on the wife, not on the husband. That's not what the Bible teaches, but that's what they learn, so it's just reinforced.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: And then, finally, women are more sensitive, they're nurturers by nature. They don't want to get a divorce. And, so, they're just, naturally, bent just to be co-dependent and to give, I mean, every part of themselves to this guy. And they're pretty sure that's going to change him, it's not going to, not this type.
Dr. Kim: No, and it's so interesting, you talked about the family of origin, because really if you grew up with that, that's your normal. I mean, that's your textbook, of what it is to be a wife in a marriage. And, so, you can see how that just transfers from one generation to another, till somebody says, "Whoa, this isn't right."
And I think, too, you said that about some churches, and I had a lady that went to her pastor to talk for her. She had visible bruises and the pastor said, "You stay in there. You're supposed to serve him." All this kind of stuff and, honestly, I told her, I said, "Get out of that church." You need to be in a church where you're loved. Where God's word is given to you like it is supposed to be, like God meant it to be, and God didn't mean for you to be abused.
And, so, I don't know how those churches get there. I hope there are very few of them, if any, I hope they're not anymore. But when someone has grown up in a codependent home and then your pastor reinforces that, that's really hard, isn't it?
David: It is, it's like a done deal. "Where do I turn? My own people, I can't turn to. I can't turn to him or his people because they're on his side, and now my pastor..." and pastors' words carry a lot of weight.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: I'm with you. I've told many women, even this past week, "Yes, find a new pastor. On your way out of the relationship, you may not leave right now, but find a pastor that gets it. He doesn't care about you and he is never going to get it, a guy like that."
Dr. Kim: Yes, and there are pastors that get it. And there are pastors that'll, probably, put you with someone else to mentor you or someone that's been through those things. I mean, reach out, don't feel like you're stuck there. So how does co-dependency begin to play out? What's it look like in a marriage?
David: It looks like one person, let's say it's the wife, whoever the co-dependent is, giving up, literally, everything about her. In the hopes of changing her spouse, and it really becomes an addiction because it takes on a life of its own. "I'm going to give up who I am, my identity, what I think, what I feel, my hopes, my dreams."
Pretty much everything, compromising every time to love this man and hope they're going to change him into the person I want him to be. Even if you're married to a decent guy and, frankly, in this context you're not.
Even with a decent guy, God doesn't tell you to do that. One flesh is not one person. It is two distinct personalities changing and growing for the sake of the relationship, but we still have two individuals.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: The codependent gives everything up. And that's why you have no voice, you have nothing, and your own kids lose respect and love for you because you don't make a difference. It's all about the abuser, well, that's what it looks like and it's ugly. It's sad, it's what it is.
Dr. Kim: I'm glad you brought up the kids. I've heard that from a couple of people. It may be more than that, even in the last year of, "My kids don't respect me anymore." And, I think, sometimes, we forget what we are then modeling. What, in this instance, a woman is modeling for her kids. And, again, how does that affect the kids? Does it affect a boy and a girl differently, when they see their mom in that situation?
David: I think it does. Of course, they both lose respect, but the girl is more likely to model after the mom and become like her. And, so, date and marry abusers and narcissists. The boy loses all respect for the mom, he's identifying with Dad. Because Dad is everything when you are a boy and growing up.
And, so, he'll treat the mom badly and he will then become an abuser. He'll start abusing his mother. And this isn't the usual teenager with a bad attitude and a mouth. Oh, no, this is far beyond that, "I'm downgrading you." And, of course, the dad will not defend the mom.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
David: If I tried that with my mother, oh, my dad would've taken my head off.
Dr. Kim: Me too.
David: That was never allowed. Oh, this is different. And, so, he's going to become an abuser. He's going to marry a woman and abuse her, that's exactly what happens. And these ladies that stay too long, it's the saddest thing in the world, Kim, you've seen it, you just mentioned it.
I hear it almost every day. "Of course, I'm still married." Or maybe, "I finally left." Or, "My kids have no respect for me, they've sided with the abuser. They can't believe it's happened; can't they see?" No, he has, in addition, to the modeling and the lack of respect we've talked about. The guy has spent decades in very subtle ways turning them against you.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and it's just brainwashing them day after day, till they see it that way. And, so, one thing I thought of when you were saying that about when a woman continues to stay in. It seems like when that codependency is there, I don't see the resentment towards this husband that I see in a woman who is not co-dependent and her husband is just trying to maybe control her a little bit. And she digs her feet in and says, 'No, I can't do this." Do you see that? That the resentment is not there because they are trying to do what they think they're supposed to do.
David: Yes, it's true, it's not there. You would think it would be. So my job is to develop some resentment, some healthy, I've had enough resentment and it's not easy to do. They've created their own reality and they're in such denial that they don't get it.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: They don't think they're being mistreated. Or if they do, it's like, "Well, this is just the way it is." It's like hope springs eternal, "The sun will come up tomorrow." Yes, it will, but it's going to be the same dumb day. But they keep living, hoping, dreaming, no, leave him. I got to get them ready to leave. He's still not going to change, he might if you leave. But it's not about him anymore, I say it's about you and your kids.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: And, boy, it's a tough sell. It's a tough sell, but I'm selling it.
Dr. Kim: Well, and I agree, I think, women, they do so much. They want it to work. And, of course, the classic abuser gives them a little hope, just dangles it out there.
David: He does.
Dr. Kim: And then he pulls it away. But for a woman who, like you said, wants her marriage to work it's hard for her to make that break, right?
David: Oh, it is. These ladies and I hear this from almost every lady I talk to, "Dr. Clarke, I don't want..." And they mean, "I don't want a divorce."
I say, "I know you don't, I don't want that either. But the reality is that's probably what's going to happen." They know that that's where we're headed. Because these ladies aren't dumb, in fact, they're bright. They know he's not going to change
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: To face that reality or very likely, then, "I have to act this way and then I'm going to have to leave." And they don't want to do that. So staying becomes the better option, even though they're being destroyed.
Dr. Kim: Yes, just day by day, over and over.
David: And then they're told by the pastor, who's got it wrong, or it is family members, "Well, God's going to honor you. He's going to bless you. You're glorifying Him by staying, and you did your best, for 40 years."
I say, "No, you didn't." God is not glorified by that. He still loves you, you're going to heaven. But He doesn't want you to suffer like that, He does not, it's not His plan.
Dr. Kim: No, and that's not a marriage. If we even look at God's definition of marriage, that template doesn't fit over what we're talking about.
David: No, it's not even close. Not even close.
Dr. Kim: Yes. So the codependency, what happens if it's unchecked? Where's it going to go?
David: It is damage, Kim, as you know across the board. Every lady I talk to has physical problems, autoimmune problems, heart issues, kidney issues. "My back's killing me." Ruptured discs. Had a lady just today, gastrointestinal problems. She's a workout person. She is a fitness instructor, it's killing her.
So physical damage, emotional damage, self-esteem gone, self-respect gone, confidence shattered, identity forget it. We have spiritual issues. There's almost always a tension with God. "Why God, are you allowing this?"
To which I say, "God's telling you to get out."
But there is an issue with God and then, of course, we always mention that the problem with kids, they'll be turned against you. They'll identify with the abuser. He usually has more money, and he's prepared them that way, and they're identifying with him. It's just one bad thing after the other. So there's nothing good about staying with an abuser, nothing.
Dr. Kim: When you start mentioning some of the physical things that go on, that kind of stress just wears and tears at you. And I think sometimes we don't, your opinion on this, that women don't realize that's where it's coming from. It's like, "Yes, my stomach is killing me every day." But they don't think it's because you're an abusive relationship.
David: They don't. They don't make that connection, that's our job, and they're always shocked.
"Really?"
"Yes." Again, that's denial.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: "Where else is it coming from? You like your job, your kids and all, no, it's him." But see, again, if they make that connection, that's the first step towards "Oh-oh, I'm living with an abuser. I'm going to have to do something about this."
And, of course, women, this is a joke in our family, when I get a cold, it's a federal case. Call the Coast Guard, call the hospital, I mean, I'm just pathetic. And Sandy, she could have a leg torn off and she wouldn't complain, and she'd just keep going, so women are just used to it.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: Of course, I saw childbirth four times. Oh, my goodness, I can't even. If you can take that, you can take a lot, but this is like childbirth every minute of the day. That's why PTSD, they all have PTSD because it's like a combat zone, every darn day.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it really is, isn't it? I mean the uncertainty that comes along with that, feeling like you got to walk on eggshells. And I've had more than one woman tell me that they are doing fine until they hear that garage door go up, in the evening, and they know he is home. And then the stomach knots or something, they begin to get that physical symptom because they don't know what's coming in the door.
David: Right, he could be nice if he's having a nice day or he could not be, or he could start off nice, but it turns on a dime.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and no matter what you do, you can't stop it. I mean, you can have the house look immaculate. The kids can all be sitting there perfect, his favorite dinner, and, at times, it doesn't make a difference.
David: It doesn't. You know what? Life isn't perfect, but it's nothing about you and the kids anyway, it's all about him. The kind of day he had and it's like kicking the dog. He's going to take it out on you and it's going to be your fault, which is ridiculous, it's his dumb fault.
Dr. Kim: Right, and you'll never be good enough, in his eyes.
David: No.
Dr. Kim: He's not going to let you-
David: Women have a way of thinking, they'll embrace it, "If it's my fault, then, I can change. And if I make these changes, then, it'll be okay, then he'll change." And it's got nothing to do with that. You can spend 40 years trying, beating yourself to death against a wall, don't do that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
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[00:14:56] < Music >
Dr. Kim: So we get a lot of questions from spouses who've been taught, it's biblical to stay in their marriage, no matter what. Let's talk a biblical framework for getting safe from an abusive situation and marriage. How do we help them get past that?
David: And, of course, great point, Kim, the Bible is critically important. And I wouldn't recommend anything, neither would you that wasn't solidly Biblical.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: This isn't taught in churches, but we see the verses Matthew 18, Romans 16, 1 Corinthians 5, that indicate, "You get away from, you leave an unrepentant sinner. After giving the opportunity to confront and to change." Which in our cases has been years, in some cases decades of opportunities, he's never going to change and he could care less. "You leave that person." That's what those verses teach.
It happens to be your... make an exception, "Well, that doesn't mean the spouse." No, there are no caveats in those verses. Okay, it's your spouse's even more reason to get away because he does more damage than the guy down the street, or your crazy mother, or somebody else, one of your kids. So we have those verses.
Then we have verses, the three exceptions for divorce, in the Bible. Which the church doesn't like to talk about for fear that, "If I mention those, well, that's going to encourage people to get divorced." That's baloney, none of us want people to get divorced. Really?
Dr. Kim: No.
David: We have adultery; Matthew 19, we have 1 Corinthians 7:15. Abandonment by a non-Christian. We have chronic, never-going-to-stop abuse also taught in 1 Corinthians 7:15, other places in the Bible.
So if those verses are for divorce, and they are, those are exceptions, extraordinary exceptions. Well, they're also then for separation, which is as far as I go. Yes, these are, obviously, a reason to separate.
Then we have, God puts in the Bible, which He didn't have to do, the story of Abigail and Nabal, I mean, right there. And in that context, Abigail had zero rights. A woman in that era totally depended on the husband, absolutely.
He could have taken a sword and cut her head off, and nobody would've done a thing to him. In the household or in the community. There were no laws against that, "I'm the man." And, yet, God got her out of that situation. That is a powerful statement that you don't have to take this.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and sometimes if you're working with someone and they're coming from, "It's biblical to stay in no matter what." How do you help them make that transition to see what you just talked about? Because they probably never, even if they've read those verses in the past, they probably haven't sunk in. Because of what they've been taught and what they've been doing.
David: Yes, the first step is really to read those verses and meditate on them. Because, yes, they've never seen it and they've never been taught that way to them. They've been told just the opposite; "It doesn't matter what he does, number one, it's your fault. Number two, you have to submit. Number three, you have to stay and then that's the right thing to do."
No, it's not, there are exceptions in the Scripture you're living one. This isn't a decent guy who's got a few quirks, we're not talking about that, forget it. This is a pattern. He's destroying you and your kids. So I there's an adjustment, there's a whole mind shift, that they have to go through. And I'm convinced, I say, "You'll make this a matter of prayer and meditation, God will speak to you."
He always speaks through His word, anyway. He'll find ways, maybe He's using me, maybe a close friend, He will get their attention. But it takes several months, usually, for them to really go, "Okay, I'm realizing this." And then they'll say, "But I'm not strong enough to leave." And all the other lies I cover in the 20 Lies — book. "Yes, but this. Yes, but that. Yes, but the other."
My job is to shoot every one of those down, biblically, as well as my personal professional experience. And, then, they start a process of getting strong enough to leave, and that takes months. Okay, well, let's start.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, take that first step.
David: Yes.
Dr. Kim: When you were saying, I was just thinking of the Scripture that says, "The truth will set you free." If the Scriptures that people have been using to keep you in bondage, you don't feel free. But these Scriptures that you're talking about, well, said it's free.
David: Absolutely, and that's what God wants. When I tell them, "Look, whether they know it or not, anyone that tells an abused person to stay and uses Scripture, inappropriately, is also emotionally abusing you." They're shocked.
I say, "Yes, they are." You're in a burning car. You're with your husband and your kids, you're all burning to death. And these people that are outside the car telling you to stay in the dumb car. Somehow it's your fault, it's on fire and you have to stay. No, God says, "Get your kids and get out." If the idiot behind the wheel, your abuser, wants to stay, God love him he can stay. That seems to get their attention, this is a very serious situation.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
David: "I'm not just unhappy in my marriage." Lots of folks are unhappy in their marriage. Okay, get marriage counseling, two reasonable people, not that hard. This is a situation where, "No, you pretty much have to leave it."
Dr. Kim: We've talked about it on other times that you and I've been together. But for somebody that didn't listen to those, let's define what abuse is in a marriage. What are we looking at? Because like you said everybody has problems. Everybody's got to have some conflict, go to counseling, you work things out. So what's different? How does someone know if they are in an abusive situation?
David: It is a pattern. It's not just here and there, had a bad day once a month. It is a never-ending pattern of narcissistic, disrespectful, harmful, destructive behavior exhibited by one person in an intimate relationship. Bottom line, the simplest definition is; "It is one person slowly destroying another person." It is hardcore, it is as serious as it gets. So far beyond your basic marital problems, you can't even believe it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. And what I see, I told a lady this a couple of weeks ago, I'd been working with her and her husband. And he's one of those guys that when it came to the bottom line, he really did do some work and he is doing better. But I told her, "You look different than you did."
She looked different when she made the decision that, "I'm going to separate and he's got to get some help." But over time, the strength she's gained, her self-esteem coming back, her seeing herself through God's eyes instead of an abuser's eyes.
And, so, now that he has worked on things, and I really feel like God sent her. And it really was God, that he just humbled himself before God and God has changed him. I think she's in a position to walk with him and to build a healthy marriage now. Where a year ago she wasn't. She just need to be separated and to have that time to heal, and it takes time, doesn't it?
David: Boy, it does. It's a great point, Kim, the co-dependent needs time to heal. Now, the guy's got a lot of work to do too, obviously, but the co-dependent has her own work to do. Heal from the wounds. Figure out your co-dependency. Where does it come from? Get strong, get yourself back, oh, yes.
So ideally it's two separate parallel tracks. Now, if the co-dependent does her work and the abuser doesn't, so be it, game over, end of story. "God will direct you." I'll say, and it could be divorce.
But, until that point, yes, you've got to get healthy. And the 20 Lies — book is really before leaving and applying the Enough is Enough book, let's get you strong step-by-step, let's get you strong.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and it just changes someone's whole countenance, as they come out of that. I don't think women realize. I've always told women sometime, at 35, if you ran into somebody that was a college friend, or roommate, or something, they wouldn't recognize you now. Because your whole countenance has changed, with the abuse that you've been under.
David: Yes, we should actually take photos, when they first, it would be kind of weird, but when they first come into the office and then when they... Because it's like night and day, happy, wow.
Dr. Kim: They wouldn't understand why we were taking that photo day one. But they're going to understand that maybe a year down the road, when you show them that photo and a picture of them now. And they see the changes that God has made because they were willing, with God's help, to make that first step.
David: Right, and, of course, it's thrilling for us as therapists to see that. And God is even more thrilled because he loves them more than we could ever love them. And He wants them to be happy, to be joyful, to be at peace.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So let's get inside the mind of a spouse, who is believing the lives that keep them with the abuser, you've mentioned denial. What else goes into that?
David: Well, what the co-dependent has to do, of course, she doesn't want a divorce. And, so, if she's made that decision and it's supported by her church, and what she thinks and what she thinks the Bible teaches. She's made the decision, "I have to stay."
All right, so everything then flows from that. And, so, now she creates her own reality in order to cope and to manage this situation. And that's where denial comes in so heavy. "This isn't abuse, he's not a bad man."
"He had a bad childhood."
"Hey, today he was better. He took me to the park. He talked to me, he wanted sex after, but he was nice to me."
And, so, she'll look at the smallest things or this is kind of sad, you've heard this, Kim, a million times. "Well, today, he wasn't abusive to me. He didn't tear me down."
So even neutral becomes, "Hey, I think we're going to make it."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: Well, you know what? That's just not accurate thinking. So I have them, I know you do too, "Tell me the story. Tell me the last week. Tell me the last two weeks." And we start highlighting the events, "Wow, that's abusive."
"Really?"
Another time, "That's abusive, here's why it's abusive. What was your reaction?"
"Well, neutral or I blamed myself."
And, so, it's all about them and what they have to do different. Well, that's just not accurate. I have a wife who's very tough and strong and we have a relationship like this, much like my mother. Sandy calls me on everything. If I say something that I shouldn't have said, or she's upset about something, or she has a need. Yes, she just tells me and I go, "Okay, yes, I'll change."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: These guys don't do that.
Dr. Kim: No.
David: So they can't talk to the guy about anything of importance. If it's going to be a disagreement or a conflict, he'll bite her head off or ignore her for two weeks. And, so, that's out, so I have to do it all myself.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: And then she'll think, "Well, because I was nice to him these last couple of days or I'm doing my best, that's why he had a nice day." That's got nothing to do with it, there's no connection. He's a dirtball and dirtballs act like dirtballs.
Dr. Kim: Yes, so when someone's been abused and then the guy is being, in her words, "Nicer". But you still see abuse there. The worst thing that the guy does to her. Does that become her standard for abuse and then she minimizes the other things that you and I would both see as abuse?
David: That's exactly right. "Okay, yes, two years ago, one year ago, he slapped me across the face or he embarrassed me at that Thanksgiving dinner." Some awful humiliating, yes, that's the standard. And, so, anything below that, and that's part of the denial, "Well, that wasn't as bad. That wasn't as bad. Oh, anybody could do this."
No, and, of course, she doesn't tell even her friends, typically, about what's really happening because they might tell her, "Are you kidding me? This guy, he's nasty." Because the wife wants to protect the husband, make him look good, doesn't want to be embarrassed. I say, tell your friends. Start telling the truth, people you can trust.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: And that's a way to break out of that denial. Somebody else is telling me, "This is a problem, something's wrong with that guy."
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: Because she thinks something's wrong with her. And, of course, her self-esteem is so destroyed. "It's got to be me." She thinks. "I'm just not a good enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not good with the housekeeping."
I've had these ladies tell me, it's just tragic, "I'm a dull sort of a person." That's what she's being told; "I'm uninteresting." To which I say, "Why did the moron marry you, if you're that dull? That's a lie. And you're not dull.
Well, I know you, I've I spent a few sessions with you." It's just awful. Come on, tearing someone down like that. I have a lot of quirks, and I talk a lot, and say things that shouldn't be said. Sandy could take me apart if she wanted to, but she loves me, so she doesn't do that.
Dr. Kim: Right.
David: I mean, come on, there's no point in that.
Dr. Kim: Well, yes, because the longer we live with someone, we know our vulnerabilities, we know our weaknesses. But being a good husband and good wife, you don't use that against your spouse.
David: No.
Dr. Kim: You use that as information to help them or come alongside them. And what the abuser does, he finds those weaknesses and he just camps on them, doesn't he?
David: Oh, yes, and they're sneaky smart. They'll use it, they don't make stuff up, they will do that. But they'll use weaknesses or some mistakes you've actually made, and then they'll just pounce. Sometimes mean sometimes subtle, but the message is, "Yes, it's really your fault, there's something wrong with you."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: And they know exactly what they're doing and it's entertaining, for the narcissist. He loves driving somebody crazy and having that kind of control, he's sick. Normal people would never want that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, there's a payoff for him in there. There's a payoff.
David: Oh, big time. And he loves winning the kids over because that's a win. And he can tell the people, "Hey, y'all, she says I'm abusive, but look at the kid or three or four kids, they're on my side. So that must mean she's abusive, not me." Oh, my goodness, awful, monstrous.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it does. It just, ah, it gets me upset.
David: Well, me too.
Dr. Kim: Precious women that you see that have just been taken advantage of, and it's mostly women. I mean, sometimes we'll see the man, but most of what you and I see is going to be the woman. And I think a lot of that is, don't you think, because God made our wives as nurturers and lovers. They care for us and they fight for their marriages.
Like you said, they don't want divorce, and I don't think as guys, we're not wired that way. That doesn't mean a guy can't be abused. You've mentioned a few of the excuses that you hear. Any others that are pretty common that people might be able to identify with?
David: Well, one of the big ones is, and we've kind of touched on this, "I'm convinced God wants me to stay."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: Women, more charismatic ladies will often say to me, "God told me to stay." To which I say, "No, He didn't." And they're shocked. I don't like, "God told me...." fill in the blank anyway, frankly, but if you can't show me in the Bible where He told you to stay with an abusive person, I'm not interested in that. So that's classic, I got to thump that one.
"It's better for the kids if I stay." Women, moms, seem to think that's true. Intact family, even if he's awful, that's better than leaving him and having two separate households.
No, it's not. You are far better off with half the time with your kids. Teaching them, loving them, showing them God's way, than when in one house where that guy is just having a reign of terror, and the things you're trying to teach them, biblically, are just washed out.
Of course, there's the submission thing. "I have to submit to him." No, you don't. You don't submit to sin. Or one of the classics is, "I can't..." And this can be true now, "I have no money, I have no job. I'm homeschooling, I'm not able to financially leave him."
To which I say, "Yes, of course, not today, how about six months from now? How about a year from now? How about getting training, looking at jobs?" This is America. Why are millions of immigrants flooding in, illegally, to our country? Because this is the land of opportunity.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: If they can do it, well, you can certainly do it. Not easily, but they convince themselves, "I can." Of course, they're thinking, "I'm dumb, I have no skills, nobody would hire me." That's not true. I say, "You're bright, you're attractive, you love the Lord, you have abilities." See they've lost all that. Come on, you can so make it.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, I mean God gave you abilities. And I think it's them being able to see through that because, you're right, they don't see that they have any value at all. "Why would somebody hire me?"
David: "I'm so beaten down." He's convinced them of that. They need to get out of that. I'll say, "Look, don't even look at how I look at you and I'm telling you, truthfully, because I'm a straight shooter. Let's look how God sees you." And it's clear as a bell, in the womb, before you even major your appearance, He was creating you to be who you are, specifically, with the ultimate detail, they've forgotten that.
Dr. Kim: I know, and it's so sad. So let's go to the other side of that. One of your quotes I love, in the book, "I want the best for you and your children. The best is not continuing to live in Christian codependent prison. The best is learning how to reclaim your identity, your worth in Christ, and your freedom."
So have you seen these women reclaim their freedom, after they break out of this co-dependency and abuse? Just to give some hope there, with those women or people that are listening today and are going, "Oh, my gosh, I think they're talking about me. But all the things that Dr. Clarke is saying that are scary, I feel every one of them."
Dr. Kim: I've seen it, Kim, you have too, and it's the most wonderful thing in the world for a therapist to see. To see a woman flower, and get her freedom, and get her voice back, and her identity, and her health improve, and her kids improve. Oh, it's the most beautiful thing. So, yes, there is a hundred percent hope for the abused woman, absolutely.
Now, I can't say that for your husband, it doesn't look good. I'll be honest, I've had three narcissists, in 35 years, change. That's not good, it does happen, it'll only happen if you leave him. So I don't, he might be in that category. But I know for you, yes, your life is going to open up, absolutely. See what they try to tie it to the husband, "Yes, but I can't be happy without him."
I say, "You kidding me? You're miserable with him. Count off the happy days with him, there's not many." So that has to be severed, this is about you now. Now, he'll have his chance, fair, and that's biblical. But, yes, when I see a woman come out of it. Oh, you get the email, you get the phone call, and they're happy and they're thankful, and we both thank God and it's beautiful.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I think we've talked around a little bit, but we're not talking about divorcing. We're talking about separating. We're talking about making a statement to him that, "This has got to stop, if you're going to be a relationship with me."
It's about her getting healthy and then see what he does, and if he works on it.
So a woman makes that step, she's separated. Her husband says, "I do want this to work, I'm going to get help." How does she know if it's real?
David: Oh, yes, good point, and I had a case just recently, I call it, "Fake repentance" which I also cover in the book. You need to make sure because these guys, they've jerked the rug on you a million times.
He knows just what to say to you. "Well, I do love Jesus and I came to Jesus last week, and I'm going to church, and I'm talking to the pastor and here's what I'm going to do for you. I haven't been affectionate. I haven't..."
So he'll give you a list of the very things you want, your heart's desire. And women tend to jump to it and go, "Oh, he's got it." To which I respond, "Those are just words." God could care less. God says, "I don't care about your words, I care about your action."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
David: And, so, you make him, and it's going to be seven or eight months, minimum, of you backing off, healing yourself, and then watching him. Does he go to therapy once a week?
Does he admit his faults?
Does he tell you all the sins he hasn't told you he's done?
Does he correct the character assassination, with all those he's bad mouthed you to?
Does he truly walk with the Lord, a Celebrate Recovery Group?
I mean, on and on, figure out the money. There's a lot of things you'll see in the 20 Lies — book, he's got to do, and Enough is Enough, too. Before you could ever even think, "Well, maybe". But the ladies let him right back into the house, and they go right back with him if they're still living together, and then two weeks later he jerks the rug.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
David: And they're devastated all over again, don't play that game, make him earn it. Now, the right guy would spend eight, nine months. That's why I say the best way to do is to put him in a corner and say, "I'm done. I don't care what you do, whatever, I'm done with you. I want you to believe it, I don't care. Next Billy Graham, I don't care."
I say the right guy will never accept that, and he'll work like a dog, with the Lord's help to win you back. The wrong guy won't. He'll say, "Okay, your fault I tried this stuff, you're not reasonable." See because he doesn't get it, he has no idea the pain he's caused.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Yes, and I think we can all say the words, but it's got to be backed up with our actions. And was it Virginia Satir that says, "7% of communication is in our actual words, it's the body language, it's the tone of voice." And somebody can fake that for a while.
I've asked women to pray and see if he's changed, that you can see Jesus in him. I mean, you got to see a heart change. You don't see somebody that says all these words that you've wanted to hear for how many years, I get that. But you've got to see him live it, you've got to stay apart until you know that something has changed.
David: Oh, I agree. Let's make sure, I like that, you need to see, you need to see Jesus and just stay the course. Oh, yes, and let's see, so there are cases where it does happen. It's just, in my experience, not very often.
Dr. Kim: No. With this couple I was talking about. Oh, my gosh, what a celebration that has been to get to that point, and I love it.
David: That's terrific stuff, it does happen. But only when the woman holds the line, and then you just observe him because repentance is always consistent, it never varies. And the repentant person will not bring up anything about you. It wouldn't be one of your faults. It'll be, "It's all my fault, here's what I did wrong." And he'll stick to that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. And then you've got a chance to come together and build something.
David: Yes, when he really gets it.
Dr. Kim: Oh, this is so good. Last question, for you, since we've talked about your bride some. What is it you're loving about your marriage today?
David: Man, we are in a very good spot. We've raised the kids, three are married, one is still single. They all got solid jobs, we have one grandchild coming. So we're empty nesters, Kim, and it's wonderful. We work together, we have time in the evenings. Watch our special show, Sandy makes food. If I treat her like a queen, she cooks for me, it works out great and then I clean up.
Dr. Kim: That's a great-
David: It's funny, one day she just stopped, she always cleaned up, too. Because I'm like my dad, my dad never cleaned up a day in his life and my mom seemed happy. Sandy, well, she never said anything, just one day she stopped cleaning up. I realized, "Oh, that's my job and that's fair." If she's going to make the food.
So we can go out to eat, which I love to do. And we, we sneak off to St. Augustine, which is our little place to go. I can chase her around the house. I mean it's just good, I couldn't do that with all those crazy kids around here.
Dr. Kim: No.
David: So life is good, God is good to us.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, well, it sounds like Sandy is a great lady. And it's just interesting as you've talked about her a lot, during this podcast, of how our spouses compliment us, how God put somebody in our lives that we learn from and grow from.
I've got a wife very much like Sandy. She's not going to let me get by with much, and I'm so thankful for that. I mean, it bugged the heck out of me early in marriage. But now I see the value of it and that I'm better because of that. And that's what I tell couples, "You've got to figure out how to work through things."
We're talking about abuse, that's a different situation, but the normal things of life and marriage, you work through that so you can get to that empty nest stage. That you and I are both in right now, and that we love it.
David: Oh, it's a thing of beauty.
Dr. Kim: Really?
David: Except for abused wives. Nothing is worse for the abused wife than the empty nest. There's no buffer, "I can't focus on the kids at all, it's just me and him." Oh, terrible, whoa.
Dr. Kim: And like you said, don't think you're doing your kids a favor by staying in until they get out of high school, you're not.
David: No, not a good idea.
Dr. Kim: This has been great. The book is 20 Lies That Keep You with Your Abuser. What if people want to find you, David, where is the best place for them to find you?
David: The best place is the website and you can only get that book from me because it's self-published. So davideclarke, Clarke with an E, davideclarkephd.com. Just that easy, everything's there.
Dr. Kim: Everything is there, and other things that David has done. A lot of great books, a lot of great resources. Thank you for spending time. Thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks for your friendship, I appreciate it a lot.
David: Well, thanks Kim, I'm a big fan of yours. And not just because you have me on, that's part of it, but I like you.
Dr. Kim: Well, I like you too, thank you.
[00:40:44] < Outro >
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