Does Being a Christian Mean Staying Married, No Matter What? | Ep. 540
00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to the Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
We get a lot of questions about staying in a really tough marriage, and recently several people have asked, specifically, about their unbelieving spouse being unrepentant because they know that a Christian spouse will stay in the marriage no matter what.
So today we're talking about the question, "Does Being a Christian Mean Staying Married No Matter What?" One person, recently, asked us, "Do you believe that God wants me to stay in an unhappy, and sometimes abusive, relationship?" So, Dr. Kim, what would you say to this person?
Dr. Kim: I would say, I think, the key word for me in what that person ask is the word abusive. And I just feel from counseling couples and people, for all the years, no one should stay in an environment that is unsafe for them. Abuse is against the law, and there's nothing unbiblical that I see about separating from an abuser.
I was looking through the common law on it, and just to quote a little bit of it, it said, "When spouses use physical violence, threats, emotional abuse, harassment, or stalking to control the behavior of their partners, they are committing domestic violence." Because, honestly, no one has the right to hit or threaten you with violence. If they do, they're breaking the law.
And, so, I think, also, the deal about the laws are there in place for a reason. And I think that God is clear that He wants us to honor the laws of the land. And people get confused sometimes and think that they're just supposed to stay in no matter what. But I would encourage this person to separate and to, then, take whatever next steps need to be taken.
Lindsay: Yes, I mean, that just hurts my heart to read this question. Even just the implication that they believe that's what God wants for them is very sad. Because I agree, that's not the heart of marriage.
Dr. Kim: No, when you look at how God defines marriage, and the closeness, and the intimacy, and all the things. When you read through the Song of Solomon, where God gives us such a picture of not only the physical relationship, but the relationship they have, and how they care about each other, there's just no room for abuse.
I mean, there's just not, I don't see anywhere in there. Even though I don't think it specifically addresses a spouse being abusive to another spouse.
I think with everything else around that, it gives us the picture of, "That's not right. That's against what God wants in marriage. That is not God's definition of marriage." And if you're not safe, you have the right to separate and to get yourself safe, and your children safe.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, and beyond having any sort of defense for abuse. There are passages that spell out specifically the way that spouses are to love each other. And it's very sacrificial and kind, and servant-hearted. Rather than trying to control, or trying to take from the other person, or make them behave the way you want. So I'll make sure we put some of those Scriptures in the show notes. We have Ephesians 5, we've got First Peter, several references to, "Wives, be gentle with your wife, never treat her harshly."
"Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church."
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and the Scripture that's probably used more in the weddings than any others, 1 Corinthians 13, that is our definition of love. That is what we look at when we're loving another person and especially our spouse. There's no room for abuse in that, at all.
Lindsay: It's not consistent with God's character, with His definition of love, or with His heart for marriage, I agree. So what do you think it is that this person, this type of question, what do you think makes them feel like it's okay or why do you think that's in their mind?
Dr. Kim: I think part of it is maybe the culture of the church they're in or the environment they're in. Some churches are very literal and, honestly, I think the church, and some churches have messed up over the years. I haven't heard this in years, thank goodness. But in the early years of counseling people, that was pretty much what...
I remember one couple, in particular, and she'd gone to her pastor and he said, "Well, this is your lot in life, you just need to stay in there." And I didn't agree with that pastor, but for her to go against what she thought her pastor was saying, which in her was the church. And really it felt like he was speaking for God and she was going to stay in that situation.
And, so, we've gotten, hopefully, past some of that now. Where we've learned so much more about domestic violence. It's so in the news now. It's so looked down on worse than, I mean, it's something that's horrible and everybody acknowledges it, and we see it in all kinds of situations.
And, so, now that that awareness is there, that's probably changed, too. But I think sometimes people get in their mind, "Well, I made this commitment for life." Which you did, but I think when someone does not live up to their part of the marriage covenant, and you are in a dangerous situation, you have every right to protect yourself.
Lindsay: Yes, I mean, I've seen just in Christian news, recently, if you follow church news, within the past few years, there've been situations where a wife was being abused and she was the one who was asked to repent. She was told that it was her problem to deal with, and it wasn't his.
He wasn't church disciplined, but she was. And that, to me, is so jarring, and the fact that the culture of the church would allow that to be. The response that was given to a woman who was being abused is really, pretty gross, it's just not biblical.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and one of the things when people ask me about church, and I want people to be in a church that they're comfortable with and feel like they can grow. But I also say, "Check and see how biblical they're. What do they stand for?" To me, that church made up its own rules or they took one thing in Scripture and either twisted it or expanded on it. Which God tells us not to do; to not change His word, to not add anything to it, things like that.
And, so, when that happens with someone, depending on their personality type plays a part in it. Their life experiences play a part of it, and that can be extremely damaging, and they put them on guilt trips and things like that. And I don't know how far we get into that, but I mean, the church has been male-dominated for a long time.
I think we're seeing so many more women in ministry now, and what a blessing that is what because of all the things women have to give. But if you're in a male-dominated church, things like that happened. Just because no one was going to tell somebody that what they were doing was not right.
And, so, they just let it perpetuate itself, and that's really sad. And I would say, if anyone's listening today and you're in that kind of a church, I would advise you get out. I would get out. I would find a church that would support you, that would encourage you, that would protect you, that would confront your abuser, and make sure you're safe. Because I think that's what Jesus would do.
Lindsay: Absolutely, yes, I agree. And I think that's probably hard to figure out if it is a biblical concept or not, if the church leadership is supporting those ideas. That's probably a confusing process. But I think it's important that, that we would say that, that's not consistent at all with the character of Jesus or God's character. And that if you are in a church, you should not be shamed, looked down upon, or made to feel guilty for being abused, or any of those things. And that's not normal, that's not a normal thing, and you should not be okay with that.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and sometimes women feel trapped, especially, if they've been a stay-at-home mom and maybe they gave up a job to stay home with the kids, or whatever. So they feel this financial, "What would I do?"
My experience has been, and I know where I live and I'm probably pretty sure where Lindsay lives, and a lot of places. Have organizations and people that will help you get safe, and will help you get on your feet, and will help you with whatever you need to walk you through to have a good life and a safe life.
Lindsay: Yes, and we will definitely link the national abuse hotline, as well, which you can reach out to any time. So, Dr. Kim, are there certain situations in which it is biblical to not stay in marriage?
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think we ought to talk about the difference between separation and divorce.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Because there is a big difference there. The people we're talking about, okay, separation, you're getting safe. You're taking care of yourself, you're giving your spouse a chance to get help, those kinds of things, and you're waiting to see what happens, and that's very biblical.
If the spouse does not respond, if that behavior continues, then I think you look at the next step, which is divorce. But I always counsel people if the other person, the abuser, is willing to get help to stay safe, getting counseling.
Let him or her get counseling, then come together and see if you can reconcile the marriage, and at that point, if nothing has changed, I've never told someone to get divorced. I just ask them to pray about it, and I've heard a number of people over time say, "I finally have peace about it." And I'm not going to question that. I don't know if there are probably people that disagree with me on that. But at that point they felt very much like it was okay because of their situation, because of what they'd been through, to get the divorce.
Lindsay: Hmm, yes, so you're saying you think that separation can be a tool to get back to a healthier marriage?
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. And if both people are willing that you want to, I would encourage them to try, very much so. And try to give them hope of what might happen.
Lindsay: Yes, so what situations have you counseled for separation?
Dr. Kim: Well, any kind of abuse where it's gone on, it's not stopping. The harder thing is physical abuse is pretty easy, emotional abuse is sometimes harder. And even in counseling is sometimes it takes a while for that to even come to light.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And I think because a lot of times people are in situations, maybe that if you are married to someone that's more narcissistic or are gaslighting you. You begin to think, "Well, this is my fault, he doesn't abuse anybody else." So you believe some of the lies that you're being told.
And, so, but any kind of abuse, it'd be something like that. I have had couples that there was not abuse, but they were just fighting all the time and the things we were trying they couldn't do. And, so, they separated and committed to counseling. And that short term, it was like a month, really helped redefine some things.
So each situation is different, each couple is different. There are many couples, I would say, "No, that's not the answer for you."
And there are others that it seems like in that situation and if they're both willing to do the things and be accountable, then it can make a difference for that. And it gives them a chance to work on themselves. When you're fighting all the time, every day in your marriage. You don't have time really to work on yourself or to think about anything else, and you just keep in that same cycle. Well, part of that separation that I would encourage, in those situations, would be to break that cycle.
Lindsay: Okay, yes, that makes sense. Just lower the temperature a little bit, get things cooled off.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And, so, what kinds of accountability would you be looking for people to have?
Dr. Kim: One, counseling, obviously. Counseling, in a situation like that for both people to have a man and a woman in their lives, that is going to ask them the questions every week. "Okay, you're separated did you do anything you shouldn't do? Did you do the things that you committed to do during this week?"
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, there's an extra accountability with someone besides counseling. I mean, we talk about counseling if somebody hadn't done their homework, it's usually pretty obvious. But by the time we get into the session because we reference back to things, and look for God to work and growth.
And when you just haven't done anything or sometimes people will just use that as an excuse to the next step for divorce. And, so, but if both people are working at it, and they're both really committed to that, I think, they can make it. I think they can have something better than they ever had
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, and you've seen it happen?
Dr. Kim: I've seen it happen, absolutely, which is always so much fun. When a couple comes in and says, "We hated each other a year ago. We had our marriage a year ago, and now our marriage is better than it's ever been." It's like, "Wow, God does work miracles if we're willing to just let Him move."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's awesome to hear. So we've talked about accountability within separation. We've talked about going to counseling within separation. So if you are on the fence, you're not sure if this fits your situation or not. What are some steps that you would say to take, Dr. Kim?
Dr. Kim: I think, sometimes in situations, depending on the kind of person that you're married to, they're going to try to make it be all your fault.
And, so, you're going to think that, you're going to question yourself a lot.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: If you feel like you're in that situation and the things, they just don't mesh. I mean, you know that you're being abused. You feel that way. You've got a spouse that's telling you, "It's your fault, you wouldn't be abused if you weren't this way or that way." Those are huge red flags because that's just not true.
And, so, one, I would suggest if you're in that situation, I would go talk to a Christian counselor. I would do a session and say, "This is what's going on in my life. Can you give me an objective look at this, of what's going on?"
Now, as a counselor, I only get one side of it, I get that. But I can usually tell, if a woman comes to me in that situation, it's going to be pretty obvious whether she's sincere or not, in that situation. And then helping them see the steps would be, "Okay, are you in danger? Well, then get safe."
And it's okay to separate because of verbal abuse, I mean, that can be so damaging. And I have a lady that I've been working with for a couple of years, and she was in a very abusive situation verbally. And they did end up in divorce, he would not change, he continued to be abusive. But she's had a year of healing now and beginning to see herself, who God says she is.
And I told her last week, I said, "You don't even look like the same person you did a year ago, two years ago. You were beat down." There was no life in her and today she's full of life. She's seeking to see what God wants her to do, all these kinds of things like that.
And, so, sometimes I think we get in that, and I think women are usually the ones in that situation. And we just begin to believe the lies that are being told to us. And, so, if it's verbal, it's just as damaging, in fact, and sometimes it's more damaging.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I mean, obviously getting physically hurt is really bad, but when you're hurt by someone that's supposed to love you, deep down inside emotionally, that's really tough. So, I would say any of those situations, you get safe. If you have children, you make sure that they're safe too.
I mean, if this guy's abusive, you don't leave your kids with him. Because, one, he may or may not abuse them. But he certainly is going to let them know what a bad person your mother is, and try to turn them against you. So you want to take the kids, get safe. If you feel like you need to file a VPR it's okay to do that. It's okay to do whatever it takes to get you safe.
If you're in the same church, you talk to your pastor, you involve him, and whatever is available there in the church. Whether it's a board of elders or whatever it is, or how they handle things, church discipline like that, I think, that needs to be a part of it. And you got to quit enabling him because there is a responsibility that comes. Every time you buy into his lies you're enabling him to continue to do that, to continue to control you. And I know that's hard, but you're the only one that can stop enabling it, nobody can do that for you.
Lindsay: Yes, that's a great point. I'm glad you brought up the kids because sometimes there's the idea of like, "Well, keep trying because the kids." And even adult children will be harmed by this dynamic within their parents, even if they're already out of the house. It's damaging, it is not a healthy environment, it's toxic for all parties. It's not healthy for the abuser, it's not healthy for the abuse.
Dr. Kim: No, absolutely not, and you're modeling for your kids. I mean, if you're the mom, do you want your daughters to be treated this way? Do you want them to find a man that's like their dad, that's going to abuse them? Are your sons going to abuse the women that they're in relationships with? Are they going to respect women? All those kinds of things that sometimes we forget.
I think when people say, "We'll stay together for the kids." Well, you may be doing more damage to the kids, by far, by staying in a situation like that, and making them think that what's going on in the home is okay, when it's not."
Lindsay: Yes. So we've talked a little bit about the process of your next steps. Are there any other steps to take? If you're on the fence, you might want to talk to a counselor. You might consider if it's time to separate.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I think, too, if it is an issue that you feel like, as a Christian, that this is something you're struggling with. If you're in a good church, a Bible church, I would go talk to your pastor or someone in the church like that. If you're in one of those churches, that we talked about, that would look at it differently. That you should stay in and it's okay to be abused. Well, you don't go talk to them, that's not who you want to go talk to.
And, for women, sometimes having a good female mentor that you can just pour your heart out to, that will help you. I think what happens, we get so caught up in what we are living, and we believe the lies, and we don't look outside of that.
And, so, anytime you can talk to someone that is going to give you good counsel, outside of that, it can help open your eyes. It can help you see the bigger picture; help you see things maybe different than you're seeing or that your spouse wants you to see.
Lindsay: Yes, that's a great point. That's a really good point. And, too, when you were talking about just thinking about things in a biblical context. If you're not really sure if your marriage is in a place that reflects God's vision.
I would say go read the gospels and read how Jesus treats people because that makes it really clear. His demeanor towards people is very gentle unless they're churchy people who are not being very honest.
Dr. Kim: Well, you look at how He treated the woman at the well. People that had been in many relationships. People that may have been in prostitution, He loved them and cared for them. Then He might, at that point, confront, help them find a better life. But He was very compassionate, like you said, to everybody except the Pharisees.
Lindsay: Yes, He was tough on them, real tough.
Dr. Kim: He was tough on them.
Lindsay: Yes, so and when I'm thinking about the things we've talked about. I think I can see a lot, well, of course, too, we've talked with our friend Dr. David Clarke, he's talked a lot about in his book Enough is Enough, about how a lot of times the abusive spouse is saying, "Well, if you would just be better, if you would just do it right, then I would not." And just continuing to minimize that behavior it's so one-sided, and that's not a healthy dynamic. It's not going to get better because you're never going to do it perfectly, from their standard.
Dr. Kim: No, not at all. And I'm glad you brought up Dr. Clarke, he's become a good friend, he is right on in what he does. For some people he is tough and he has got to that position because he realizes what a difficult situation this is. And he makes sure everything is out there, to try to make sure he gets your attention, and knows it's okay to take care of yourself. But I would recommend anything that he's written, go to his website. You can even do a consultation with him. I mean, if you want to go that direction, he's the best in that area.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, he definitely specializes in that area. And he actually has a new book coming out and will be on the podcast next week.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: I think, too, it's one thing for people who are trying to maintain their lifestyle, not ruffle the feathers. But things can really escalate and you don't really know how that's going to go. I think he's seen some things; he's shared some stories in his book. And when you've seen some things, you realize, "This isn't something to maintain, this is something to go ahead and disrupt for the sake of getting healthy."
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: Yes, well, so I'd love to wrap up this episode with just talking about what God's vision is for a marriage. We've talked a lot about what it is not. So let's paint a picture of the healthy marriage we want to aim for. What does that look like?
Dr. Kim: We kind of hit on a few of the things when we talked about Jesus, obviously. Servant leadership is such a big thing and serving each other, and when you're both doing that. We don't do that perfect all the time, but sometimes we get into it. And it's like, "Okay, I'm going to out-serve her and she's going to out-serve me."
We always make a game of it. "What can we do to really lay it on thick?" I think having compassion for each other, another thing that Jesus showed is kindness. Seeing yourself as a team, consistent, we talk about God first, spouse second, all the time. But there is so much in those four words, of just if you really are putting God first, there's nobody that He's going to put in second place besides your spouse.
And when you're putting your spouse in above everything else, but God, I mean, you are so far ahead when you do that. Sure, you'll make some mistakes. Sure, you still have plenty to learn. But you've involved God in the middle of your life and your marriage, and it will make a difference, and you just continue to do that day after day.
To me, those are the things that are essence of a healthy marriage and once you really let God in. Maybe you're afraid of what He's going to tell you to do. He's not going to do anything that's not good for you and not good for your marriage. And when you begin to follow Him and do what He says to do in a marriage relationship, and you see how it works, it's really a lot of fun. It's really exciting. It's like, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't know marriage could be like this. Wow, God really did create something beautiful."
Lindsay: Yes, He really did. He didn't create this to be just a hard slog until we're done, it's meant to be a good time.
Dr. Kim: Your spouse should not be your thorn in the flesh, right?
Lindsay: No.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: No, oh, gosh. And when we look at the Scripture, and like I mentioned before, we'll make sure we have actual links in the show notes. But Scripture talks about mutual respect, mutual submission, "Submitting to one another and to God."
"Loving is Christ loved." Which is servant love, servant leadership.
"Being gentle." All the qualities of the Christian faith and the fruits of the Spirit all apply. And, like you said, the love chapter, all those distinctives are the heart of what God means when He talks about loving. And love is a part of marriage that encompasses all of those.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: Yes, so we did a series, last year, about one-sided marriage. And, so, we understand that marriage isn't always roses. It's not always going to go swimmingly, even for two Christians, even if you're both putting God first. But if you find that it's continually, repetitively, in this pattern where things are one-sided, things are off, things are hurtful and harmful, that is not the picture of marriage we're talking about.
Dr. Kim: No. And you will never have a healthy marriage with one or both of you being unhealthy. And if your spouse is unhealthy by the way he's treating you and you're unhealthy because you're allowing that to happen.
And you're thinking, "Well, this is what I need to do for my marriage." No, it will never give you a healthy marriage. You have got to get healthy, yourself, and be who God created you to be, as a spouse. And your spouse, your husband has to do the same thing.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Well, Dr. Kim, this has been a really helpful conversation today. It's been tough, but I hope encouraging. Do you have any final piece of advice for our listeners?
Dr. Kim: I think it is a tough situation, being around Dr. Clarke a lot the last year or so, hearing his stories, and then just the people God has brought me to counseling, this is a big problem. Maybe Covid had an effect on this, maybe because we were cooped up, we're starting to see some other fallouts with Covid. All that time of isolation that we had. But I hope if you are in that situation, this has encouraged you to take that step. To get yourself safe, to get yourself healthy. And then the prayer is that your spouse will want to come alongside you and will want to get healthy, too.
But if you keep enduring this, nothing is going to get better and most likely it gets worse. The whole pattern of abuse is that it continues a pattern of getting worse. So if you think that, "My husband has never hit me and he raised his fist one time." If it keeps going, he's probably going to. And, so, the sooner you decide to say, "This is enough, I can get some help, I got to talk to somebody." I don't think you'll ever look back and regret that.
Lindsay: Yes, I think so. I mean, we know that there's better available than hurtful situation.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: We are praying for you, the asker of this question and the others who've submitted very similar questions. Talking about staying with an abusive spouse or staying with a spouse who's not a believer, and who just refuses to change because they say, "I know you're going to stay." So in all those situations, we're praying for you. And I do hope and pray that this is helpful and that God brings change into your marriage.
Stay tuned next week because Dr. Clarke will join us, again, to talk about his newest book with Dr. Kim, and that will be helpful, I'm sure. We'll make sure to link all the resources we mentioned today in the show notes.
So if you haven't, make sure you subscribe to the podcast email. That's where you find the show notes really the most easily. You have them just delivered straight to you, if you're subscribed.
We hope and pray that God encourages you today. Thanks for sharing your time with us. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage, today.
[00:28:30] < Music >
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[00:29:35] < Outro >
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