How To Disagree Without Demonizing Each Other With Mike Donehey | Ep. 549
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. Today on the podcast, I'm excited to welcome singer, songwriter, and bestselling author Mike Donehey. Mike was the former lead singer of Tenth Avenue North. He is the host of the podcast Chasing the Beauty. A husband and dad to four girls, and his new book is Grace and the Gray: A Better Way to Disagree. Let's go to the studio now.
Mike, thank you so much for joining us today. It's good to have you on The Awesome Marriage Podcast.
Mike: Glad to be here.
Dr. Kim: It's so cool. Well, the new book is Grace in the Gray: A Better Way to Disagree. So have you always been able to disagree well?
Mike: Well, no. The first sentence of my book is, “my wife is really good at disagreeing with me. I had to learn how to be cool with it.”
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, isn't it funny the things that we learn from our wives. When we think we've got everything and then we realize that God put them in our lives for a lot of reasons. But one of them is to help us realize that there's some things we need to grow in.
Mike: There's a whole host, I'm keeping a list of things that I didn't realize my wife was going to teach me when I married her.
Dr. Kim: I love it, that may be a book later on. Maybe we can collaborate on that. So you talk about the pandemic showing you that we often view each other not only as selfish, but as outright threats to our own well-being. What do you mean by that?
Mike: Man, I mean, when we get disagreed with. It feels like such an attack, doesn't it? And a lot of times when someone is disagreeing with us, it's not an attack it's actually a gift. If you look at the book of Proverbs, it's filled with this one statement, "A wise man loves being disagreed with. He loves critique, he loves rebuke, he loves being corrected. A foolish man hates it." And the easiest way to resist being disagreed with, is just paint the person that's disagreeing with you as an idiot, as a villain, as the enemy, and oftentimes they're God's grace to you if you would accept it.
Dr. Kim: It is hard for us to embrace that, isn't it? Do you feel like it's easier with some people than others? Or in general, do you think we just all have an aversion to it?
Mike: I definitely think there are people whose propensity and their wiring get along a little easier. The Enneagram or something like that, there are personality types that are - go with the flow. And then there are personality types that are going, "This is the correct way." I put out that I've written a book called Grace in the Gray. And I had several people write back, "There is no gray, everything is black and white."
And I go, "Okay, we're not the same person here."
Dr. Kim: Yes, Nancy would say that I live in a sea of gray, which I probably do. But, yes, I agree, I think it is. I was just thinking, I guess if when he was alive, if Billy Graham had corrected me with something. I'd probably have said, "Yes, that's great, I'm with you 100%, just because of the way you look at some people." But it seems like the closer we are to someone, maybe the harder it is to receive that.
Mike: Yes, it's funny, some critique we can only hear from people we look up to. And then some people are too close where we've already written them off, we've already decided. And probably a big problem we encounter, Tim Keller just wrote this in his book called Forgive, but that we paint people that we're in an argument with or who have hurt us, we paint them in this one-dimensional light, in our mind. Like, "That, guy, oh, he's such a blah, blah, blah."
Or "That guy." Or even people we look up to like you said, Billy Graham, or people we look down on, theologically, that we don't agree with. We paint them in this, "Well, he doesn't have anything to offer. That guy, he believes this and this." And I think true wisdom and humility is seeing people in three dimensional light, that sometimes they're going to get it wrong and sometimes they're going to get it right, and so am I. So do I.
Dr. Kim: Yes, in being open, I guess, for me, it's letting God do work on me, really, where I can't. Criticism was always hard, it still is hard at times, for me. And you have some people that maybe you don't have to see them very often or ever, maybe once or twice and, so, I can blow them off. It's the people that I'm close to and that really care about me, that I can't escape, that sometimes it's hard to do that and to hear it from them.
Mike: Wounds from a friend can be trusted.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: Oscar Wilde said, "A true friend stabs you in the front."
Dr. Kim: I love that, that is so good.
Mike: And I talk a lot in the book about how we oscillate between being defensive or defeated. That's been my experience. When my wife started disagreeing with me, and like you said, she was the closest person to me. And I'm going, "Just agree with me, woman." And she insisted on telling me when I got it wrong, and I would get so defensive or I would get so defeated. And the gospel really is the solution for both of those. Is it not?
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: We should be the least defensive people in the world, if we believe Christ is our defender. We should be the least defeated people in the world, if Christ really is our victory. And we go, "I got it wrong? Of course, I did, I'm a sinner who needs a savior."
Dr. Kim: Yes, and we forget that sometimes.
Mike: Oh, all the time.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and it is hardest. I think, probably, for us, I thought Nancy was always, if I have a great idea, she'd ask all these questions. And I thought "She's trying to throw cold water on all my ideas." And I finally realized that she was just trying to understand me and understand where I was going, since she had come alongside me. And that was a huge turning point in our marriage. That happened probably 15, 20 years ago, and it was like, "Oh, she wants to be on my team." And here I thought she was just asking all these questions just to put me down or whatever.
Mike: I went running with a buddy of mine, and he always texts me when he wants advice. So I get this text, like, "Go for a run?"
I go, "Oh, boy, I wonder what he wants to talk about now." And we're running this yesterday and he's talking about him and his wife, and they're in therapy and counseling, and they've had this one argument for two years. And he, finally, we're on this run, and he goes, "We had this huge breakthrough."
And I said, "Well, what was it?"
And he goes, "I think, I realized my wife didn't need me to agree with her. She just needed to feel seen, and heard, and understood."
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's good, that's a breakthrough.
Mike: And when we start an argument with someone, the best thing we can do is repeat their argument back to them. In such a perfect way that they would say, "Yes, that's exactly my position." And until you get there, just push pause, because what we do is we go, "So you're saying that blah, blah, blah." We cartoon them, characterize them, but if you go "So let me see if I'm hearing you right. You're saying that..."
And you really try to hear their argument and repeat it back to them. That gives them a chance to say, "No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is da, da, da." And you go, "Oh, okay." So - "What you're saying is" - that's just such a healthier jump off point.
Dr. Kim: Well, it connects you and the other pushes you apart from each other.
Mike: That's right.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's really good. So let's apply that to family, marriage relationships. At Awesome Marriage, we say that "Marriage is not my way versus your way, but how do we do this together?" So the process of disagreeing, how has that affected your marriage in a positive way?
Mike: Every single way there is. I mean, I am a better human to all humans because of the disagreement that I've had in my marriage. Because what I've learned is disagreement is not the sign of unhealth. Disagreement is the sign that I'm actually, in a relationship to begin with.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: So if everyone agrees with you, all the time, you're actually not in a relationship with anyone.
Dr. Kim: Well, that's good.
Mike: It's like if the God you pray to always agrees with you. You're not praying to God, you're praying to yourself. So disagreement is actually the sign that you are in a synergistic relationship.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I've told couples in counseling, before, when someone will say something like, "I thought we were so much alike and we're so different."
And I thought, "Is that bad? What if you were just exactly alike, don't you think you'd be bored?"
Mike: So I've got a thing in my book I talk about falling in love versus staying in love. And how we fall in love with a picture of ourselves. It's all those shared preferences, and movies you like, and things that are interesting to you. "You like that too? Oh, me, too."
"You like that? Oh."
And then you get married, and then you start to see all the ways you're different. And actually learning to appreciate those differences, is the way you stay in love. It's the way you cultivate a deep, I'm sure you know this, who am I talking to? I'm talking to the man.
Dr. Kim: No, I love the way you said it and it's so true. You either embrace those differences and see that God put that person in your life for a reason, and value them, and grow through them, or you push away from them and then you just fight all the time.
Mike: Yes, falling in love is easy. It's all colors and sparks.
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, you bet.
Mike: I wrote a song, one time, and it says, "To fall in love is easy, it's all color and sparks. But to stay in love is a work of art."
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's cool. I just think that God has so much to teach us through marriage and through that relationship.
Mike: Of course.
Dr. Kim: And we either embrace it or we push it away. And if we push it away, we just miss out on so much, don't you think?
Mike: That's it, yes. The first chapter in my book is called Leaning In. And you can't cultivate any relationship if you don't start with a posture of leaning in, even when they're presenting an idea that you think is stupid.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. So let's talk about the church, for a minute, because it seems like there's a lot of disunity. We see some denominations that are just splitting apart. A lot of disagreement among believers. What do we learn from Matthew; Simon The Zealot, from the time they spent with Jesus together?
Mike: Yes, isn't that just the most radical thing? And I'm really grateful for the Chosen Series that's out. If you haven't seen it, it really gives people a visual picture of just exactly what was going on. And I don't think people really appreciate that Jesus had Matthew the tax collector and Simon the Zealot in His posse.
Who, Simon the Zealot? His dudes would have been assassinating people like Matthew. Because their whole thing was Israel needs to be run by Israel. Any occupation by any other country is an abomination to the Lord, and they need to fight and win Israel back. Which makes sense when you read the Old Testament.
Matthew the tax collector is the penultimate trader. You're not only working for the Romans, you are extorting your people and taking money from them. You are the worst human there is. And if Jesus is going to bring those two political polar opposites into his posse He's really showing us, "Hey, unity is not only my dream for you but it's actually possible, even when you don't think it is."
Dr. Kim: Now, that's so good. I just love when you think through, I wish we knew more about every disciple. Because I'm sure we would see something in each one of them. We know a little bit about Thomas because he doubted. Well, that helps all of us who have doubts to know that it was okay and that Jesus is there with the answer, and just to see those differences. So how does that apply to the Church?
Mike: Yes, that's a great question. Having a unique perspective on this, I think, more than most. In that, I have played in and participated in services in, probably, 1000 different churches, over the years. That's a unique position being in a CCM band, is we were playing for the Catholic Diocese, and then we were playing for the Episcopal Youth of Texas. And then we were playing for a Church of God Convention in Indiana.
And it always struck me, when we would do these denominational events. I would go, "Man, we all seem to be agreeing on way more than I thought we were. Why are there all these denominations?" There are hundreds, thousands of denominations, and I've heard some people joke that that's God's gift to keep us from killing each other.
Dr. Kim: Maybe, yes.
Mike: But it is shocking, to me, how many times Jesus talks about unity, how many times Paul talks about being unified, and we find every reason in the book to separate. And, on top of that, the most dire, stark thing that Jesus ever said was, "If you don't forgive others, I won't forgive you." And when I listen to that, I go, "Any bitterness, any schism, ought to be the mission of the Church to resolve those things, as quickly and efficiently as possible." Because our unity really will be the thing that testifies, "Hey, Matthew and Simon, they're both invited, that means you're invited too."
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think, with the church, we have such a tendency to focus on our differences. Instead of, like you said, where you saw we're able to see in those different settings, the similarities, and I think that's what God wants us to focus on. I mean, I don't think we're going to go to heaven and have to decide which church we go to.
Mike: We might even go even deeper on that. I write this hypothesis in the book, it's extra-biblical, so give me a little grace here. But I said, "Imagine you get to the pearly gates. Peter is standing there with The Book of Life and he reads your name. 'Yes.' And the gates start opening and the light from Jesus' face is blinding you, and you're going, 'Aah!' But then a silhouette starts walking towards you. And you're like, 'Wait, what? I can see Jesus back there. Who is in the way?'
And then they come into focus, and it's that person that you just couldn't stand. It's that person who you had that grievance with. It was that person who just you never could get along with. And you go, 'Oh, what are they doing here?' And then you rush past them, you brush by them, and you try to get in, but the gates close in front of you. And you go, 'What's going on?' And Peter goes, 'Ah, I forgot to tell you, you can only enter in pairs.' And they're standing and they're apologizing. They're telling you everything you ever wanted, is that enough?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: And that's where it concerns me, that we find these reasons to separate. I go, "This is someone who you're going to spend eternity with. So why not start that now?"
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. Because you don't want them to go to the other place, really? So if you're going to be in eternity with them, well, I know.
Mike: Some people you go, "I hope they're not up there."
Dr. Kim: Yes, there is no way they're going to be there, anyway-
Mike: I've read from some literature that if you don't, at least, deep down, somewhere, hope that even the people you hate make it in, then you may not understand the gospel at all.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and that's hard.
Mike: Well, that's surrendering you being right for the sake of the relationship.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I had a family and their daughter had been molested, young, by a guy, and the guy ended up doing some other things in prison. And the family, they all got together and one of the persons said, "We got to forgive this guy."
And, so, together, they wrote a letter of forgiveness to this guy. And I can't remember exactly what, but the guy's reaction, they heard back how it touched the man. I don't know if they were able to ever see him together.
But hearing them talk about sitting together, as a family, with the daughter who had been molested, and making that decision that God led them to forgive this guy. And then to let that guy know that. I think what the guy, as he told me the story, and he said "There was a freedom I hadn't felt since I found out my sister was raped by this guy." And, so, like you said, there's so much power in that, and forgiveness frees us.
Mike: I've heard it said that "Being bitter is like drinking poison and wanting the other person to die." Or I've heard it said, "Being bitter is like trying to stab someone with a sword that has to go through your own soul first." And I don't want to minimize how difficult that's going to be, but I do believe that that process is possible and available to anyone who understands the grace of Jesus.
Dr. Kim: I think so, too. And I think the first step is just saying, "Okay, God, if this is what you want me to do, then I need your help in getting there." And He will.
Mike: Yes, and it could take 10 years, it could take 20 years, 30 years.
Dr. Kim: Yes, you have to be very patient.
Mike: My dad, I share a story in the book about forgiveness because you're not going to be able to disagree with people if you're not able to forgive them, and he was abused by his father. My grandfather was an alcoholic. And he wrestled with that for years and then took this admonition seriously, that he has to forgive his father. And I said, "How'd you do it?"
And he said, "Well, I wrote him a letter."
I go, "Ah, you wrote him a letter saying, 'I forgive you for all the stuff you did to me?'"
And he looked at me like this and he goes, "No, I wrote him a letter asking him to forgive me for all the bitterness I had in my heart."
Dr. Kim: Oh, wow.
Mike: And I went, "So what did he say?"
And he goes, "I don't know, I put it in the mail. But the second I put that letter in the mail, I was free."
Dr. Kim: Wow, that's powerful. You're right, that's the gospel. That's what God wants us to experience.
Mike: Yes, and it's important to add it is supernatural.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Mike: And I really believe that true forgiveness is really only possible through the Holy Spirit supernatural empowering.
Dr. Kim: Oh, I agree. I don't think there's any way we could do it on our own. We're too human. We're just too human to do that.
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Dr. Kim: Okay, let's get out of the church, and let's talk about girls since you've got four of them. So how are you raising them? Five to 13 years of age, four girls. How are you helping them learn to disagree well?
Mike: Dr. Kim, there's so much crying in my house. So much crying, so many tears. And we're trying to develop a healthy allowance for feelings. So they'll be losing their minds and we'd go, "Okay, we need you to calm down."
And they go, "You said we're allowed to cry."
I go, "Okay, you're allowed to be disappointed, but you're not allowed to flip your lid" So we're always trying to teach them the difference of what is a right, natural, God-given emotion to feel and understand. And what is allowing those emotions to overwhelm and dictate what's going to happen?
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: So it is a daily, hourly, minute-by-minute process to help them learn how to disagree with each other, for sure.
Dr. Kim: Yes, well, and you've got five women in your home.
Mike: And my dog is a girl, so it's six.
Dr. Kim: Of course, it's good. So what about if they disagree with you? How do you handle that?
Mike: You mean every day? You mean, every time they talk to me?
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: That is a great question and, honestly, it's one that we're still wrestling with. I do have this whole bit in the book about our mantras, with our kids, and some rules that we have. That we never send our kids away, which is really difficult, especially, when they're raging. We will say, "Hey, if you continue to scream, you're going to have to go into the other room." But we never go, "Go to your room." Because, through what we've read, it seems like treating them that their behavior isolates them is not a healthy road to go down.
But what do you do when they're raging at you, and screaming, and hollering? And we've committed to never send them away, and we've committed to never raise our voice, which I'm still guilty of. I get the dad voice, I don't scream, I go, "Ladies!"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: And they're like "He is serious now." But we do invite them to have questions, to try to understand what we're saying. There is a point where, sometimes, we have to go, "Hey, so I'm the parent, off you go. We're done now, that's it. We're good."
So the way we're teaching them how to disagree is just the way they communicate, and the type of words they use. So we're really on top of, "Hey, that kind of speech to your sister is not appropriate. So I understand you're upset and you're allowed to be upset." And we do a lot of, like, "What are you feeling?" And having them name the different emotions they're feeling.
I'll give you a good example. Last night, my one daughter got a little drum set for Christmas. And we had to switch the beds because her bed has this little railing. And she had this little railing, and I said, "Hey, I'm going to keep your same mattresses, but I need to switch the..." They're almost identical, but there's this little railing and the drum set is now in the room. And I want this railing, on this bed, protecting the drum set, and she was totally cool with it.
But then last night, losing her mind when she was going to bed because she was scared because the railing wasn't there.
Dr. Kim: Ah, yes.
Mike: And it's one of those moments where you start to reason with your child and you're reasoning like, "Nothing, no one is going to come in. What are you thinking?" And then you realize they don't have a frontal lobe that's fully developed. You're not going to reason your way through this. And, so, you want them to feel seen and understood, right?
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: So I go, "That's got to be really tough, that railing is gone. Is that hard?"
"Yes, I'm so scared."
"Yes, I know how that feels, that's such a bummer. What do you think we can do to solve this?"
"Well, I want my bed back."
"We're not going to move your bed back because it's protecting the drums, remember? You wanted it to protect the drums because they're your drums."
"Yes."
"Mh-hmm, there are these chairs here. We could just move these chairs up next to your bed."
"Yes, let's do that."
And you find a solution, and everything in me, as a dad, is just to go up there, "Do what I'm telling you to do." And if you just leaned in a little, you'd find a solution maybe a little faster.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and taken five minutes instead of 30 seconds of yelling.
Mike: I know.
Dr. Kim: Just what you taught her, and what you were able to see in her, and what it did for you. And you're like, "I don't have to yell." The benefit that gives a child, as they get older, as they get in relationships, all that kind of thing, I mean, those are such incredible life lessons.
Mike: Yes, and there's a guy named Chip Dodd and he has a book called Voice of the Heart. And a lot of psychologists and therapists will use this language, but they'll call it emotional intelligence. The importance to actually know what feelings you're feeling.
And, so, we actually do this with our girls. He has eight core emotions, and different therapists have different number of emotions, and they use different words.
But it's really helpful with our girls to sit down and, honestly, in a marriage. So my wife and I did therapy and she said every time I came home, she would feel pressure.
So I'd be on the road right, with the band, and then I'd come home, and my wife would say, "I just feel this pressure." And she was saying that for months and I'm like, " I don't understand." So finally I go see a guy who did our pre-marriage counseling, and he counsels a bunch of artists on the road, so he knows. And he said to her, "You feel pressure?"
"Yes."
And he said, "What is that on this list?" And he had these eight core emotions, and she goes, "Oh, I feel sad and afraid." Well, hearing pressure just made me want to fight. Like, "Pressure? I'm not doing anything to make you feel pressured."
But when she said, "I feel sad and afraid." It was like, "Oh, I can feel that."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: And, so, teaching our girls to name not these secondary emotions that are more in our head, like, "I feel embarrassed."
Or "I feel anxious."
But naming them, "I feel sad."
"I feel lonely."
"I feel hurt."
It just really helps them. And when they hear each other say that, it just takes the angst out of a fight when you really start to see the other person.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and to empathize with them there, then you can connect with them.
Mike: Yes, that's right.
Dr. Kim: Because we usually don't do that when we fight.
Mike: No.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. When you say that it's about curiosity, and kindness, and asking better questions. What are some bad questions that you've asked or heard, and what are the alternatives to those?
Mike: So look at God when He talks to Adam and Eve, that's probably my best advice.
Dr. Kim: Okay.
Mike: When Adam and Eve sin, God doesn't come into the garden and say, "What on earth were you thinking? What made you think to do that? Why on earth would you...?"
He says, "Where are you? Who told you that?"
So even God, when He approaches the first humans who have ruined everything, He approaches them with curiosity and kindness, even clothing them, alluding to Christ. And I always try to say to people, "What does the voice in your head sound like?" Does it sound accusatory or does it sound curious? Because Satan is the accuser and the Holy Spirit is the comforter. Is the voice in your head condemning, or is it convicting?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Mike: Is it accusatory or is it kind? Is it true or is it curious? And I think God's voice is kind and curious. And we would make much more headway with our own habits, our own addictions, and with others' shortcomings and their arguments if we approach them in that manner.
Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm, absolutely, yes, and don't you think it's just taking that time to do that? We get so rushed, and we just don't take the time to really look at things in the way that brings healing or connection.
Mike: When we're wrestling with our own accusatory voices, it's really hard to actually hear the other person's heart. And, so, if you don't have that solved, it carries over. So if you're already starting, "I'm accused, I'm wrong, I'm defeated, I'm defensive." Then when someone brings anything else, you go fighting back.
Dr. Kim: You start a fight.
Mike: But when you are hearing God's curiosity and His kindness. His kindness is what leads us to repentance, it shifts the way that you engage with others.
Dr. Kim: Yes, the way that you just said that last part, I just wish we could take that template and lay it over our country right now. Because I hear the word kind used more now, but it's like nobody is kind anymore. What happened to kindness? And, I think, through the pandemic, through the other things we've gone through, the last two or three years, now.
We don't do that well as individuals and we, certainly, haven't done that real well as a nation and it would make such a difference.
Mike: Well, we had a Civil War so it's not like we've ever been super great at it.
Dr. Kim: No, you're right, exactly. So talk about the connection between honesty with God in peace and relationships. I love that.
Mike: Yes, it's a lot of what we're already talking about. I really had a huge shift, just out of college, I was working at a church and I realized how filtered my prayer life was. I would be, "Thouest God, thank you so much for your ever-present bounty, blah, blah,c blah." When really inside I had all this stuff going on, and all these questions.
And I was angry at God and I was thinking, "I don't understand this, but I worry about this." But I would never say that stuff to God because I'd go, "Oh, I can't say that to God. I have to just say, 'You're the best, I love you, I trust you.'"
And actually, the inverse is true. Psalm 62 says, "Pour out your heart to the Lord. The Lord is a refuge for us." And what I've noticed are the people who are the most aggressive, in their language to God, are usually the most peaceful to others. Because it really is, and you see it in the Psalms. You see this template over and over, David bemoaning, and freaking out, and screaming at God, and then it's Selah, and then a total shift in attitude in what he's saying, and you go, "What just happened there?"
And I think there really is this refuge that God says, "Give it to me. Give me all your questions, all your hurt, all your fury, all your angst, and I really will give you this peace in return." And it seems so strange, but I started walking this field. I worked at this church, and I started praying for real. Started being honest, "God, you know what I don't understand why this?"
And, "You know what, let me tell you something." And I did over and over, I felt like I got God in response going, "Oh, really? Mh-hmm, where were you when I laid the foundation of the world, Job? What were you doing?" And it isn't this, "You dumb human."
It's like, "Hey, I got this." But you get it off your chest, to God, so you don't get it off your chest at other people.
Dr. Kim: Which we can do very easily. You know what, I think it's so funny, when I finally realized that God already knew what I was thinking. And just because I was verbalizing something different didn't mean he didn't know. And it was like, "Oh, so it's..." And it hit me one time, years and years ago, Mike, in a Psalm, when I saw David just lashing out.
But then that transition, like you talked about, into peace. And just to realize, "What just happened here with this guy? He was so mad at God, He was so angry, and now look where He is." And there is a huge lesson there, as you said, of being honest with God and God can take it. He's not going to fall off His throne because we yell at Him.
Mike: Is that what you were thinking? I had no idea.
Dr. Kim: Exactly, my gosh, yes, there are no surprises.
Mike: The people I never want to get an argument with are the people who pray at the table, like, let us pray "Dearest Lord, thine unto thee, thus, therefore, henceforth, Amen." I go, "I don't want a conflict with that guy because he is..."
Dr. Kim: No, it's not going to go well.
Mike: A little too curated for my liking.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I think just the more we can be transparent and honest with God, it helps us in all our relationships.
Mike: A hundred percent-
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. So being honest with God, anything that really helped you get to that point? You said the deal, when you walked in, when you're in the church, and stuff like that. Other times that you felt like God taught you something by just being completely honest with Him?
Mike: Yes, that's a good question. I've been thinking about this. I think every time that I've really let loose on God, the thing He always comes back teaching me is "I know you don't know what I'm doing, but I'm hearing this, and I love you." And sometimes I feel like God didn't, at first, go, "Did you understand the question."
I guess, probably, the biggest one was when I was trying to figure out if I was supposed to marry my wife, actually. I actually wrote a song about it. And the verses are me talking to God asking all these questions, and then the choruses of the song are "Oh, oh, oh." Because I really was crying at the time. And then the bridge are all these promises that I heard God say back to me. And at first, it was super frustrating because I'm like, "God, am I supposed to marry this girl? Tell me 'Yes or no'."
And he said, "I'm with you always, even unto the end of the age."
"Am I supposed to marry this girl?"
And He's like, "I'll never leave you nor forsake you." And it's really frustrating when you're asking God a question and He gives you a promise and not an answer. But then as you soak and you marinate in it and you go, "Oh, a promise is so much better than an answer. Because if I had all the answers, what fun would living be?"
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, and just to know that whatever we go through, He's going to be there with us. And I tell people, too, Mike, that sometimes they think, "Well, I just married the wrong person."
And I say, "Maybe you did, but you married him and God's going to make this work." He values marriage, and He loves you, and He loves her, and let Him work. Let Him just work, and He'll make something beautiful out of it if you just let Him.
Mike: Yes, it's like Bob Ross.
Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.
Mike: Do you ever watch Bob Ross?
Dr. Kim: Yes, oh, yes.
Mike: “Happy little trees.” Every once in a while you'd see him make a little mistake, and go, “Oops."
And then he goes, "But I remember in painting there are no mistakes, just happy little accidents." So the part that if it were you or I, we'd go, "I need to throw the canvas out." He just keeps painting. And eventually, that stroke, that mishap, becomes the best part of the painting.
Dr. Kim: That's so cool.
Mike: And I say even about our marriages, our relationships, the people you've hurt the worst. The moments of the greatest dissidents. That stroke across the canvas that just looks hideous, if you'd let God keep painting, it might become your favorite part.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome. Nancy and I celebrated our 53rd anniversary yesterday. And we sat and talked at dinner a lot about the things that we'd seen God do. And things that just were hard that we went through, and how God turned those and grew us through them.
And there are so many times we could have given up but God kept us together, and now we're so grateful and we just rejoice. And then Nancy said, I was sitting there, and she said, "You know, I love you more today than I ever have." And I go, "Well, that's really cool."
Mike: That's cool.
Dr. Kim: And I felt the same way. But I think life is letting God teach us and grow us, and marriage is such an incredible gift that He gave us to let those things happen in for sure.
Mike: That's awesome.
Dr. Kim: I got a couple of questions before we wrap up. What are you doing now? Tenth Avenue North and the music have touched so many of us, in so many different ways. And I told you, before we went on, How Healing Begins hit me at a time, you probably hear that, all the time, from people, that song you wrote that for me.
Mike: I love it.
Dr. Kim: What are you doing now?
Mike: Yes, great question. Well, I'm still making music just under my name, Mike Donehey. A lot of people actually said, "Why don't you just keep calling it Tenth Avenue North?"
And all my bandmates were ready to retire and they even said, "Well, you can keep using the name, I guess." But I knew they didn't want me to and I said, "All right, well, that was beautiful." And I'll keep making music and keep releasing it, but trust that if God wants to bless this music, He'll bless it the way He does.
So, still making music under Mike Donehey and just putting out my second book here called Grace in the Gray. And I have a podcast, too, called Chasing the Beauty but other than that, I'm trying to love on my wife and raise my daughters.
Dr. Kim: You said something before we went on there, and we talked about the band deciding not to stay together anymore. And you hear so many stories of bands and the fights, and they get mad, and this kind of stuff. But you said you guys decided "We need to end this band because of our marriages." And I thought that was so powerful.
Mike: Yes, it started with our drummer. He left the band a couple of years before the band ended, and he said, "My oldest daughter is starting middle school." And we had started the band together 18 years before. But we had always said we'll never let the band take priority over our families. And he got a job with Compassion and got off the road. And then a couple of years later, the rest of the band, and my wife was saying, "Hey, I need you off the road. I don't know for how long, but I need you home."
And I told the other guys and they went, "Actually, that's great news."
I go, "What? What do you mean, actually?"
And they go, "Well, we all have been starting these other careers, and we actually are ready to just lay this down. This has been amazing, but we don't see ourselves doing this for the rest of our lives anymore." And we're like, "Okay, cool." And it was beautiful.
Dr. Kim: It will be cool to see what God continues to do with that. So you guys have been married, how long now?
Mike: How long? 14 years. We'll be 15 in May, yes.
Dr. Kim: So what are you loving about your marriage today?
Mike: I am loving not having to pretend, and it's the best part.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome, just being real together. Yes, that's really good. Well, the book is Grace in the Gray: A Better Way to Disagree. I'm excited to see, I guess you're going to keep writing, and keep singing, and keep writing music and so, we can continue to follow that. And I'm excited about that for you.
Mike: Thank you, Dr. Kim.
Dr. Kim: Thanks for your time today.
Mike: Thank you.
Dr. Kim: It was great.
Mike: I loved it.
[00:47:19] < Music >
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