How to Set Marriage Boundaries | Ep. 548
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Today on The Awesome Marriage Podcast, we are continuing our series on healthy boundaries. By talking about the logistics of how to set and carry out the boundaries our marriages need, for ourselves and our marriages to be their healthiest. So in the past couple of episodes, we've given a lot of places where a boundary might need to be set. And today we're going to go deeper on how to make that happen. So Dr. Kim, to start off, how do we know if we need a boundary in a certain area?
Dr. Kim: Well, there are certain things that I see from counseling couples that just arise consistently. Certainly, conflict, if you're not handling conflict well we've talked about that. Trust, definitely, is one, if there's a trust issue. Maybe someone had an emotional affair, physical affair, pornography, whatever. Boundaries rebuild that trust. Security, "I don't feel safe in the relationship. I don't feel safe financially. What do we need to do to put some boundaries to do that?"
So things like that are some of the things that are red flags that pop up. A lot of times we don't know what to do with it. And, yet, by sitting down and having a good conversation. Both get on the same page on something and say, "Okay, well, yes, let's do this. Let's set a boundary here with our conflict. We're not going to yell; we're not going to fight when we're angry. We're going to build trust. You've access to all my passwords." Things like that. So you begin to see how boundaries can be beneficial in those areas.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's really good. That's a great way to start looking at it. So once we start realizing that, in a topic, we need a boundary. How can we narrow down what that boundary needs to be?
Dr. Kim: Well, let me go back, maybe like on conflict, as I was saying. Are we going to use timeouts? So you agree, that's a boundary. We're going to say, "Either one of us can call the timeout and we're going to split. We're going to go pray. We're going to talk and come back." In conflict, listen, the boundary is you got to listen to each other. If you're trying to talk over me or I say something and it's very obvious you weren't listening to me, the boundary is we got to listen to each other. No raised voices, you got to mention that. I mean, things like that.
Things that will make a difference in the conflict. Because if you use timeout, and you don't yell at each other, and you listen well to each other, you can resolve conflict. So those boundaries will make a difference. And the whole thing of trust, which I think, unfortunately, a lot of people have to deal with. It's not always infidelity, it can be some other areas.
But boundaries, we're going to be totally honest with each other, completely. We're going to have accountability. Not only with each other, but if we need to have someone else that we're accountable to, to rebuild trust, we're going to do that.
Trust, you can look at anything I've got. You've got my email. You've got access to all my social media. You've got access to texts. Everything I have, you either got a password or you've got an easy access to that. And, so, then, that begins to take the issue like conflict or trust, what are the things, the boundaries, that are going to help us in that area?
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, that's good. So this is a process, it's going to be a process. And I heard you mention a lot of different options for conflict. I think we can get more into this later. But do you recommend that if you see, for example, four different boundaries you want to draw around your conflict. Do you just go ahead and do all of those at once or would you do one at a time? How would you do that?
Dr. Kim: It depends on how bad the situation is. If it's really just escalating fast, maybe, you'd really just start with "Hey, we're just going to do a timeout and we're going to agree to the timeout. Because that gives us a chance to deal with that, to handle that, and to calm down, and come back." And, maybe, that takes care of some of the other things, when we take the time to do that.
I think you can try to do too many things at one time. And, so, if you can step into it, then that's good. And trust, if it's just maybe, "Hey, I was talking to my friend today, and so-and-so's husband has been texting somebody and stuff like that. I trust you, but I don't have access to your passwords and all that stuff. And not that I've ever looked, but it'd just make me feel good if I had access to all your passwords. If I had access to everything that you have online." And, so, your boundary is, yes, we both have access to everything.
Now, say someone's had an affair, well, then, you're probably going to put a bunch of things in place, in that situation. If you have a hope of building something back to rebuild trust. You got to count down like we talked. You've got to have access to everything. There is other things that go into that. So a lot of it can depend on what the situation is and how severe it is. But if you can start out with just one thing and build on it, that really helps.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's good. So it could be, definitely, a varying scale depending on where you are.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: Okay, that's helpful. So let's talk about the logistics of a boundaries conversation. So one of the things you said, in a recent episode, was not trying to resolve conflict when you're angry. But if you've got some built-up conflict, or some resentment, or something's been going on for a long time, that's going to be hard. So how do you do this?
Dr. Kim: Well, you've got to talk about it outside of when you're upset. And, so, okay, "Hey, we've been fighting about this or we've been fighting, consistently, all this time. We're not getting anywhere. We're getting mad at each other; things are not good. Can we sit down and talk about it?"
And, so, that's an important thing is just setting aside the time and holding that time sacred. And getting rid of distractions, so you can really talk about it. And you've got to both be willing to do that. And if you can do it, the two of you, that's great. If you need to put in a counselor or something like, whatever it takes to begin to resolve things.
And, yes, I thought of an example, sometimes, it always helps. We always like to have something, I think, I call it the sandwich method. Where you say a couple of something good, then something, and then something good at the end. Like, say you say, "I think we're really doing good at spending more quality time together. But I'm missing some of my alone time, which I really need. Can we talk about how I can have some alone time?"
And, so, you're complimenting something that you're doing good. But you're also saying, "But this is what I really need, too." And, so, sometimes, that really helps soften it. It's like you're saying, "Hey, we're doing good, I love it. I love the time we spend together.
But just the way I'm wired, I need some alone time and I realize I'm not getting that, and I'm really feeling the effects of that. And I think I'm going to be better for me, and better for you, and better for a family if I can work out how to have that alone time, too. Can we work on that?" So, I think that's a really good thing.
Then explaining the boundary. So if you take that situation a little bit further; "I'd like to have 30 minutes in the morning, where I know I can be alone. I need time to think. I need time to pray. I need to set my time for the day. And when I get interrupted, I have trouble getting focused again."
And, so, then, your spouse can say, "Yes, I walk in on you all the time, don't I? You'll be in there, having that 30 minutes, and I'll come in while I'm shaving and tell you about a basketball score or something. So I'm interrupting you." So that gives that why you need the boundary and it gives that information. Because the other spouse may not have a clue what they're doing.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Consequences are hard, and we'll talk some more about that. But a consequence to something like that is maybe, "Okay, you need to go get ready in a different part of the house."
Or, "Maybe I need to go have my quiet time in a different part of the house." Those kinds of things. And, so, that's the way the conversation would go. I think another boundary, if you're having trouble with escalation or maybe raise voices at each other. That a boundary can be, "I think when you raise your voice at me, it scares me. I shut down. I don't feel like I can communicate with you.
And it seems like I either withdraw, or I fight back and say something I shouldn't. So in the future, if you raise your voice at me, I'm going to remind you. And then if you do it again, I'm going to leave the situation."
And, so, you've set a boundary there with a consequence. Because you're trying to set something that will protect you, your spouse, and your marriage, and make things better. Staying in there and yelling at each other is not going to do that. A boundary is, "Okay, if we're going to get in that situation, I'm going to leave. I'm just not going to do that."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, those are good. Those are great examples, too. I mean really good, tangible, real-life, practical examples, and that's really good. Even before the conversation, I think, it's good that you set up, it has to be a time where both are able to be mentally present, no distractions. And agreeing on a time that works for both. I don't think it can be like, "Hey, I've got boundaries, I'm going to sit with you. I need you to sit down and listen." It has to be that both people agree on this.
And I love the sandwich method. I think that's helpful because then it's not just like this, "Hey, everything's awful." And I've been guilty of proposing things in that way, by accident, just because it's what's on my mind. It's top of mind, so I'm thinking, "Oh, I've got to get this resolved." But that's not really doing the best job of communicating what I want to communicate.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and, to me, it always helps when I stop and think of something positive to put in there. Because then it resets my mindset, too. It puts a little positive spin on whatever I'm trying to deal with or whatever I might think is negative, and that's helpful for me in communicating. I communicate better when I take time to do that. And the whole world is not caving in, it's this one thing here that I want to talk about. We've got a great world over here, but this thing is something that we need to talk about.
Lindsay: Yes, well, and I guess, then, to follow up to that is what if the world is not great? What if it's a really tough season in the marriage? It's going to be a little different then, but can we still start to get some forward progress through this?
Dr. Kim: We have to. I don't think we say it a lot, I say it a lot, that marriage doesn't stand still, it either goes forward or backward. And, so, in tough seasons the tendency is to go backward. But I have so many couples, I've seen and worked with, that have grown their marriage through difficult times.
And, so, it may be that you do need a third party, either a mentor couple or a Christian counselor to sit down with you. And, so, don't put that off. I've had people tell me, "We should've come five years ago." Well, I know you should've. We'd be so much better off, if you'd started this, five years ago instead of now.
So take that step, whatever it is, if you try it by yourself, try it by yourself first. And if it's not working, say, "Hey, we need some help in this, do you agree?" Then say, "Hey, you know that couple that the pastor told us about? They're about 20 years older than us and they've been through so much, and he thought they would really be good to come alongside us and help us. Let's call them and have dinner with them."
Or, "Our neighbors down the block, they were having problems that were kind of similar to what we're dealing with. And they found this great Christian counselor, let's make an appointment with that person." Just take that step, don't let it just continue to go and fester.
Because it's amazing how when you put things off how quickly a month, a year, five years, can happen. And you just have never dealt with it and it's not just staying there, your marriage is getting worse. Or maybe you have a bump forward, but you're then taking two bumps backward, and you want to continue to try to do things to move your marriage forward.
Lindsay: Oh, absolutely, and I really appreciate that you can share the experience. You've seen some really tough marriages turn around, and that's super helpful and encouraging for all of us, too.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it is. I mean, it's just funny when you realize, when you quit fighting each other and fight together, and seek God, good things can begin to happen. Sure, you still got things to work through. So it's not like, all of a sudden, you're going to get this magic potion from God that's going to make everything okay. Because, I think, for some reason, God usually wants us to work through things and deal with it.
And know that with His help we can come out on the other side, instead of Him just giving us a rescue rope all the time. Sometimes we need the rescue rope and sometimes He gives that. But a lot of times, He wants to teach us, and grow us, and walk through something with us. So if we do that, there's so much hope.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, and that's the purpose of getting so down in the details, today, about how to make this happen. Because, I think, wherever your marriage is, if it's just maybe one thing that you need to deal with or if it's really tough right now, there's a way to move forward in that. And what you're saying to start out with, Dr. Kim, is like, "Let's address this outside of anger. Let's address this as a WE thing, not a me versus you." And, so, that's a great place to start.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay: Yes, well, going forward, so say you've got one thing. Let's go back to the example of the interruption during 30 minutes because that was such a specific example. What if the other spouse doesn't want to agree to the boundary? They have some pushback or they're just not on board. What do you do?
Dr. Kim: Well, there's only one person you control and you know that, and it's you, and sometimes that's a really hard lesson for us to learn. I mean, I really thought, for a long time, I could control Nancy but that never worked out. So, then, the boundary really has got to come from you. And, sometimes, we set boundaries, and either we get the pushback and we give in.
And, so, what's a good example? Say, "I never mind when you ask me to drive my car. In fact, I love that you enjoy driving my car. But it seems like every time you drive it on the weekend and I get in to go to work on Monday, the gas gauge is on empty. So I need you to make sure there's enough gas in the car to get me started on the week. And if it happens again, I can't let you drive my car on the weekend anymore."
And, so, the pushback would be that they drive your car again, and they bring it home, and you get in on Monday morning and, "Oh, I'm out of gas, I've got to stop to gas on the way to the office. Monday morning is hectic, the traffic is horrible, and now I’ve got to stop and get gas again." And, so, the consequence is that you follow through in that consequence. So that will be one example.
I think when a spouse pushes back or says something like "Well, that's silly." Or "That's stupid." If we use the example of quiet time in that, you can't change your spouse. Maybe your spouse keeps coming into the bedroom while you're doing your quiet time. So then your role is, "Okay, I'm going to go outside on the patio."
Or "I'm going to go do something here."
Or "I'm going to wait till he goes to work or she goes to work to do that." So you can work around those, to get what you want. It's always going to have an asterisk by it, if your spouse hasn't been all in on it with you. When you can set a boundary and your spouse says, "I get it. I understand. Maybe, you don't even like it, but, yes, I know you need this and so I'm willing to do it." That's really healthy.
If you set a boundary and your spouse said, "Well, that's just stupid, I can walk in this bedroom anytime I want to walk in this bedroom." Well, so you move to the patio to do your quiet time, there is some resentments going to go there. And, so, you're getting what you wanted, but it's got this asterisk by it.
And, so, if a couple is listening to this, it's really learning to understand and respect each other's boundaries. And to validate those, and to follow through with those. Because when you give some pushback it's going to have a negative result, even if they still get what they wanted.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's a good point. And in that case, you're missing that teamwork aspect that we want to see. You can't change your spouse. You can never control your spouse, and you don't even want to, but you do want to be able to work together.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and that's, probably, where counseling is going to have to be a part of it, honestly, Lindsay. Because there's something deeper there than just someone saying "That's a silly boundary." Or something like that. "Okay, why are you not even respecting or listening to your spouse in this area? We need someone that can help us communicate well enough to each other, so we can understand where each other is coming from." And, so, that's where counseling can be so helpful for somebody.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, and then even if it's-
Dr. Kim: Yes, sometimes, I say something in counseling and the spouse will say, "That's what I've been telling him for six months."
And the spouse said, "Yes, but he just said it differently."
No, I didn't, it was just coming from me instead of them. And, so, it's kind of funny when that happens. I never laugh, but I think to myself, it's just amazing how funny we are, as people. And I can say the exact same thing. I've had parents tell me that, "My kids said you told them to do this and they're doing it. I told them that every day, for a year."
Then I said, “Yes, I know, just accept it and enjoy it."
Lindsay: Yes, just take it. Yes, that's a great point. I think there's something, too, to be said, if you know that you need some support or some counseling in that area, and your spouse is not willing to go. It still will be helpful if you go by yourself in that situation. Because then you can learn some other ways to start communicating these things and start dealing with the one person you can't change, which is yourself.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Lindsay: Hmm. When we're talking about starting to implement these boundaries. You gave us a great example about the car, on Monday morning. What are some other examples of ways to implement?
Dr. Kim: Yes, well, certainly, having the conversation. You both want to make sure you both understand, and are clear on the boundary, and that's really important. Because sometimes I've worked with couples and one has set a boundary, and it goes back to listening and communication, and they really didn't get it. And, so, you want to make sure you're clear on that, and the consequences, and you follow through, all that stuff moves your marriage forward. And if you don't follow through or aren't consistent with consequences, then it'll go backward.
So say Nancy hurts her back and vacuuming the house is difficult for her. So the boundary for the next four weeks, while she heals, is that she can't vacuum and she needs me to do that each week. And, so, I agree to do that, if she can't, I'm going to do it for her. And that would imply the consequence is if I don't do it, it's dirty corporate and my wife's going to be ticked at me. So maybe that's not the best example, but I think it's something that sometimes she's asking for something, I agree to it and then I don't do it.
Let's look at trust, you say we want to build trust. So we agree to give each other access to everything like we've talked about, messaging, emails, social media, all that stuff. And the boundary is that nothing is hidden from each other. The consequence is if you add a social media account and you don't get to tell your spouse about it. Or you change your password on something and don't tell them, the consequence in that one is tough because it's broken trust.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, those things when you implement it, you want to be able to make it clear what the consequences are, and you both got to be all in on it. I mean, if I agree to be really faithful with social media and all that stuff, and I verbalize that. But I don't really, "I'm not going to do that." I'd say that to myself, well, then that's not going to be good at all.
And I think you'll know pretty quickly. In counseling, I know pretty quickly if we're setting some boundaries and saying some things, if both people are already in on it or not. Usually by a couple of weeks, as we've set a boundary and one is following it and the other is not in on it, it's going to come out. And, so, then we got to go back to square one again.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, oh, another plug for counseling. Because that sounds like it'd be really helpful to have that third voice there, that third party.
Dr. Kim: Yes, because what if you try your boundaries and it's not working? It's not that boundaries aren't working and maybe you're not setting the boundary exactly in a way that works for you as a couple, things like that. A counselor can help you refine those things. It doesn't mean that boundaries don't work or a boundary is not good. It just may be for your marriage, or where you are in your marriage, or you're both not all in, or something that a counselor can help you all identify and work through.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's good. That's really good.
[00:21:03] < Music >
Lindsay: You've heard how many questions I have for Dr. Kim. How do I know what boundaries to set? How do I make them enforceable? How do I communicate them? Well, that's why we've written The Marriage Boundaries Workbook: A Simple Guide to Boundaries for Your Marriage. The workbook shares several areas where boundaries might help you, your spouse, and your marriage become healthier, and the process to implement them.
Your marriage is worth protecting. So it's worth learning how to set healthy boundaries. If you have boundary questions, like I do, check out our Marriage Boundaries Workbook for answers. You can find this helpful resource at awesomemarriage.com/resources or using the link in our show notes today.
[00:21:37] < Music >
Announcer: Are you and your spouse functioning as a winning team or as a pair of frenemies? Well, we believe that God created something unique when He brought the two of you together. And that, together, you get to discover the unique purpose He has for the two of you. Yet, so many couples struggle to work together as a team. We know it, we live it, and we hear it from couples all the time. There's so much temptation to discount each other's differences and try to change each other, rather than learn to work together really well.
So that's why we've created The Team You and Me: A Guide to Approaching Your Marriage as a Team. To help you learn and discern how God has uniquely gifted you and your spouse, both individually and together. And how you can work as a team for more fulfillment and purpose in your marriage, to the glory of God and for the benefit of the world around you.
This workbook contains 16 daily challenges to help you—
Create a unified vision.
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And help each other in your weaknesses.
Plus, have fun in the process. There is so much to be gained when you work well together. From more peace in your home to more purpose in your life together. Go to awesomemarriage.com or use the link in our show notes to grab The Team You and Me Workbook and take on the challenge today.
[00:23:12] < Music >
Lindsay: The book, Boundaries, which is a great resource to read if you're getting into this or there's Boundaries in Marriage or … In Dating. Cloud and Townsend, the authors of that, say that "Boundaries need to be enforceable." Why is that essential?
Dr. Kim: Hmm, if the boundary is there to make things better and there's not a consequence when it's crossed, why do you even have the boundary in the first place? I mean, at that point, it's not enforceable. It just becomes like a word of request that you do to somebody and say a wife says to her husband, "I don't ever want you to talk to another woman." Well, that's pretty broad. So that's, probably, not something that's going to be enforceable because of just the way life is.
But if, instead, the spouse says, "I'm uncomfortable with you talking to our next door neighbor, Christie, without me present." Then that's very specific. And the consequence is that "If you cross that boundary, I'm going to go and talk to her and I'm going to tell her that I don't want y'all to have conversations anymore or whatever it is. Or I'm selling the house and we're moving." Whatever it's.
But, I mean, you've got to have something, a boundary has to be very specific. It can't be real broad, and then it's got to be enforceable. It'll be real clear if she sees him in the yard talking to Christie and she drives up, or she's in the house and she looks out and sees that, that boundary has been crossed.
And, so, then, the next step is "What do I do? I'm going to go to Christie and I'm going to say, 'I'm really uncomfortable. You may be pure in your thoughts, but I'm uncomfortable when you're talking to my husband. And I'm asking you to not do that with him, unless I'm present because he can't seem to control himself.'" You, probably, wouldn't say that last part.
Lindsay: Yes, that's a great example, that's really helpful. So there could be a lot of different ways to enforce the boundary. They'll probably all differ depending on what the boundary is. But I do think making it really specific will help to figure out what the appropriate consequence would be.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And it's difficult to use a word like consequence because the purpose is not punishment. It's not to punish and it's not to teach someone a lesson, it's just to make the boundary applicable. And, so, when we're thinking about that, one of the big pitfalls is that the boundaries might seem like a punishment or like a control, but it's really not that at all. Is it Dr. Kim?
Dr. Kim: No, it shouldn't be at all. It should never be a punishment. It's just one of the things that is so good philosophy in raising kids is natural and logical consequences. You leave your bike out in the rain and it gets rusty. Well, your consequence is you got a rusty bike. And, so, it should be something that follows along to enforce something. You're supposed to put your bike in the garage, at night, and if you do that, that's a boundary, if you do that. If you don't, then you're going to have a consequence there.
So it's to make your marriage healthier, it's to make your marriage better. And I said that earlier, I think, you never want to get it where it's a parent-child situation. And if it's punishment, then, you're in a parent-child situation and nobody wants to be in that with their spouse.
Lindsay: No, absolutely not, that's not healthy. So as we continue to talk about how to enforce a boundary. Did you have any other examples or thoughts on that?
Dr. Kim: I think, too, when we just start with boundaries, for a lot of us, it might be a process if we haven't used them before. And, sometimes, just learning how to refine that. And, so, your goal is to define what you're comfortable with and how you would like others to treat you. It's to communicate to the other person what you need or how you want that to happen.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Then the consequence will become someone walking over that boundary. And, so, enforcing the boundary is making sure it's followed really and, so, it's that process. And, so, if you're just starting out, as a couple, and you're starting to set some boundaries, you're going to learn as you go. Because you may set a boundary that maybe there is something a little bit unrealistic in it or something like that, and you don't know till you get in that.
So just let that be a process, where you can get to where it's very clear, consequences very clear. And, so, if the consequence is set up ahead of time, and it's very clear, the enforcement's pretty easy. "You cross the boundary; you can't drive my car."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, well, can we go back to another example that you gave us, just talking about the conflict boundaries. So if both spouses had agreed to not raise their voice, say for example. So one example I've heard you use, as an enforcement for that, is okay, "If you do, then, I'll leave or maybe I'll give you a reminder and then I'll leave." Are there any other ways that you would enforce that?
Dr. Kim: When someone has raised their voice, once you get into escalation you're not going to have a good conversation, usually. And, so, leaving is probably going to be the best solution in that situation. Because, probably, if someone is angry, anything you say is going to make them angrier.
One thing that sometimes works is having a buzzword. And, so, "If one of us says these words, we shut things down." And, so, maybe, your buzzword is purple. And, so, escalating instead of saying "I'm going to leave." You can say, "Purple." Maybe, that'll bring a difference. Maybe walking away with your spouse causes more anxiety because they were abandoned. Had feelings of abandonment in the past or as a child growing up.
And, so, saying “purple” it makes it feel more like, "Oh, this is for us, this is for our marriage. I am raising my voice; I need to stop that." And, so, I'm glad you brought that up because you've got to find what works for you. And, so, if a consequence, all of a sudden, has other things attached to it, that you didn't even know about. Like the feelings of abandonment that I've dealt with and now, "Oh, my gosh, my husband or wife is walking away, too." That can cause some real problems.
And it's okay to say, "Okay, this is what seems like the right consequence, do you agree with that?" Sometimes it's, and we see this with our kids sometimes "Okay, this is your curfew or this is your rule. What should the consequence be?" And, usually, they would come up with something that is tougher than we would and we say, "Okay, we'll do that."
And, I think, the same thing you can say "Is that fair?"
And then your spouse can say, "Well, it probably is fair but because of my past, that's going to be really hard for me. Can we think of something else?" Again, you can even process the consequence together. Because if your big-picture goal is to make your marriage better, then, you both need to be working on it. It's not one person against the other. And if you're, again, talking about boundaries and it's something that's really tough. Like there's been physical abuse or something like that, it's a whole different story.
Those are some things when somebody may need to separate. May need to get out, physically get out, not just walk away to another room, to get in the car, and go somewhere safe, things like that. But the things we're talking about are just general things that happen in most marriages, at some point, during the marriage relationship.
Lindsay: Yes, that's really good, and I like that you gave us a couple of different creative ideas there. Because collaborating on the consequence could be really helpful. And, right off the bat, I could think of situations where you mentioned the past abandonment. And I don't know how many people are fully in touch with those past feelings.
A lot of us have not done a lot of counseling or have not dealt with everything. So that could be hitting home for a lot of people, but they never would have realized that and connected the dots, because they haven't processed through it. So it's interesting, I know a lot of stuff that we're bringing into the marriage. Where we need the boundaries is probably stuff we need to deal with on our own at times. But this is showing how it's really a tool to help us step into those things healthily, without triggering all of our past stuff that's still in there.
Dr. Kim: It is. And that's why I think it's got to be a work in process. Sometimes the couple will come in and they'll say, "Oh we did this, and we've tried this boundary, and it's not working." And, so, we dig and then we can come up with something like that. Sometimes that is hard for a couple to do on their own. Maybe you can pray about it and God will reveal that to you, certainly, that happens. But, again, it may be a time that a counselor can help you work through that. If you hit some roadblocks go to counseling, and help them figure it out.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. Yes, get some help. That's really good, oh, we'd, of course, recommend the boundaries books that we mentioned a minute ago that gives some more tangibles to this, go much deeper even. That's good.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it's a great book.
Lindsay: So I feel we've talked a lot about the enforcement, and I love that you're just saying this is just another way to have a deeper conversation with each other. To go into those things and to work together more.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay: And, so, I do want to touch on two boundaries outside of the marriage. Because we've talked, at this point, about having boundaries outside the marriage with family, with friends, with others. And, so, for example, I know that you've dealt with this in plenty, in counseling. But say you have to set an example with an in-law or a family member. What are some ideas for enforcing those boundaries?
Dr. Kim: Yes, unfortunately, a lot of couples have to deal with that. I would say that; one, as a couple, if you're trying to set a boundary to protect your marriage and your family, then you set the boundary together. And, so, okay, my dad comes over, unannounced, walks in the door.
We gave him a key, I don’t know why we gave him a key, but we gave him a key. And one time he came in and we were in bed. One time he came in and I was just walking out of the shower. This can't go on. And we've asked him and he'll go, "Oh, yes." And then the next week he's walking in again, at some time.
And, so, you say, "Okay, that's your dad, let's talk about the boundary and the consequence, and you're the one who needs to communicate." I think anytime you're communicating to the family of origin, it's best if at all possible, for the child, adult child of that family, to communicate that. It just seems to work better that way.
So the boundary is you go, "Okay, you're going to talk to your dad. You're going to ask for the key back." And you'll say, "We love you to come over. We're not saying don't come over, we just need you to call, and see if it's a good time. Most of the time we're going to say yes. It's not like we're just trying to control everything, but there are times that we need privacy. There are times that we'll have something else going on. Maybe we're having a study time with the kids, whatever it is, maybe it's nap time. But so we want you to the call before you come."
Well, getting the key back is a huge thing. That way, that takes access away. And, so, the consequence also could be, so he shows up the next day, he is standing outside the door. He did ring the doorbell, but he didn't call, don't answer the door.
Lindsay: Hmm.
Dr. Kim: And then you can text him later and say, "We were taking a nap when you came by. If you have called or let us know, we would've held the kids up a little bit before nap time. Or we would've said, 'Hey, they're down for a nap, can you come in an hour?" And, so, you begin to enforce it that way. So does that help? I mean, that is what you've got to do and you've got to work together. And you've got to agree on the problem, and it is a problem for both of you. And then you've got to agree on the solution and the consequences.
Lindsay: Yes, that's a great point. That's really good and practical, a tangible example. One follow-up question I do have for that. Just because I've seen it happen so many times, what if the adult child of that parent does not see the issue as much as their spouse does? And their spouse is desperate for them to take that stand and make that boundary, but they are not seeing it in the way that their spouse is. So they don't want to have to step up and take that hard conversation.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's tough. I would go to a third party to talk about that. Somebody, maybe, to validate is this really an issue or is it not an issue. And, then, if the counselor or whoever you're talking to validates that. Then how do we handle that? And it's another thing, too, and in a marriage, and in general, if something is important to Nancy, I want to make it important to me.
So it may not bother me that my dad came by and he'd just walk in. And, yes, we'd sit down and I'd be watching a game and he'd sit down and watch the game with me. Great, I never thought anything about that. But what if that bothered Nancy? Because she said, "What if I was there with you?"
"What if I was just having my robe on and I just got out of the shower? What if this? What if that?"
Then I need to value what she's saying and say, "Hey, Dad, I love you coming over and watching the game with me, but call first, just in case." And you put that out there like that. So making something important to you because it's important to your spouse. And sometimes when it's not important to us, we tend to minimize it or blow it off, and I don't think that's good.
Our spouse needs to know that we heard them. And I don't know what is always is going on with Nancy where she had asked me to do something like that, from the past or whatever it is. And it's not time for me to sit down in order for us to go have a counseling session. I'll just say, "Okay, I can do that, yes, I'll tell him." And next time he calls and says, "Hey, the game starts at three. Is it okay if I come and watch it with you?" I ask Nancy, "Yes, that's great, come it's okay."
Again, it's just putting some things in place to just make it healthier. My experience has been the younger the couple is getting married, sometimes, it's harder with the parents intruding. Because they haven't made that separation.
They still see you as just one big family of origin instead of "Yes, you have the family of origin, but you also have this new family." So sometimes you have to set some boundaries to establish this.
Say your parents have Sunday dinner every night, and everybody is expected to be there. So we do this every Sunday for six months. And one of the spouses says, "You know, I would love that we had a couple of Sundays a month where it was just us at home, with our family. Or just the two of us at home together where we can just relax, get ready for the new week. Just enjoy hanging out together."
And, so, it's like, "Yes, that sounds like a good idea." So it's okay, then, to say to your parents, "Mom, we love that you fix dinner. We're going to come on the first and third Sunday of every month. Others we're going to stay home because we think that we just need that time." And if your parents are healthy, they're going to say, "That's great, you need it."
They're going to understand the value in that. And if they don't, then it's like, "This is what we're going to do. And we're not going to let you manipulate us or say, 'Well, you know your dad's pretty sick, he may not be here that third Sunday or next week.'" Or something like that. So you don't want to get into that.
And, so, my parents made it so easy. In fact, Nancy, we'd been married about two months. And we'd seen my parents, I guess, but Nancy said, "Don't they not like us anymore?" It was because they knew how important it was to give us space and time. And, so, we had to say, "Hey, it's okay to ask us over, it's okay to do things." And things like that, "We're okay with that." But they were waiting for us to set that. Which was really nice, and it made a big difference for us.
And I've seen other places, where parents don't want anything to change. And it's like, "Yes, you've got her or you got him, but we're not changing anything else. And you're expected here and there." And all that stuff.
Lindsay: I know.
Dr. Kim: It's got to change. They've got to see you as a separate entity, and the sooner you do it, as a newlywed, the better. The longer you let it go on, the harder it's going to be. You start establishing, "This is a different relationship I'm in now. This is new, we can do some things differently. We love you so much. We thank you that you got us to this point, but this is what we can do and this is what we can do, moving forward." And sometimes you get some pushback, sometimes you don't. Some parents understand some don't. But you've got to do what's right for you.
I had a couple of families this year that decided that Christmas day was going to be just them and their kids, at home all day. They had never done that. They'd talked about it, so we'd talked about it. And, so, they gave the information out pretty early, it was 1st of October. So it wasn't Christmas Eve they were saying "We're not coming over." Got a lot of pushback and stuff like that, but everybody survived. And I talked to them afterward and their kids were ecstatic.
They said the kids stayed in their pajamas till three in the afternoon. We just sat around. I cooked breakfast, and we played with their toys, and we watched a movie, and all that stuff. And, so, it was just a really special time for their family, and that's okay if you do that. You're not being mean to somebody for not doing that.
And as parents and grandparents, we just have to understand those things. That we're entering into new seasons, so the things that we enjoyed and loved, in the past season, may not transfer to this new season.
But embrace what is in this new season. Maybe that means that, Christmas Eve you do something really special for all of them because you're not going to see them on Christmas day or maybe you do something else to do that. And then you plan something for yourself for Christmas day. So you don't sit around going, "I wish the kids were here all day." You plan something good for the two of you. And, so, I kind of took a rabbit trail, but I thought it was a good place to do it.
Lindsay: No, that's really good. We need all those examples because when you were talking about your family, how your parents were so accommodating. I think a lot of people were probably going, "Oh, that is not fair. We didn't have that experience at all, we had the opposite." And, so, if a lot of people are dealing with this, it's great to have those examples.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I haven't told that much but my parents eloped. And, so, that just shows that there was... and my grandparents, on both sides, I loved and my parents were pretty young and they eloped, and there wasn't a lot of support for that. And, so, they knew how valuable it was to have that time for them to build the relationship in marriage. And, so, they got through that and carried that over into Nancy and I when we got married, and it was really cool. It was a blessing because it's, probably, not the norm in most situations.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, no, I don't think so, but that's really sweet. That's cool. So as we're wrapping up this conversation about boundaries. If we have a lot of things we're thinking of right now, our mind is just spinning with all these different possibilities or places in our life that we might need to start setting boundaries. How do we start? Do we do a lot of things at once? Do we start with one at a time? Where do you begin?
Dr. Kim: Yes, how do we practically do that? When you set a boundary, again, make sure you reiterate a few things. As I said it's very clear and it's very specific. It doesn't need to be broad, like "You can't talk to any women ever again, in your life." I mean, that's just like going, "Okay, I'm also going to lock you in a cell." No, you can't do that.
Communicate clearly, and make sure your spouse understands it. That's really important, too, and sometimes we just don't, or the spouse acts like they do or doesn't listen. So that communicates the consequences. You got to be consistent. And, then, I think, too, going back to what we said about not punishment, don't overreact if the boundary is crossed. It's okay to give a reminder and reiterate it, and, then, you can put the consequence in if you need to do that.
But, I mean, for those of you who are just starting out doing boundaries, it takes time. And it takes time for both of you to understand and get on that, and make that a part of what you do in your marriage. Let me give you an example. So you're constantly trying to lose weight, it's a struggle. And while you're doing this, your spouse keeps making these snide remarks about your weight.
So the boundary is you come to your spouse and say, "I'm really working on this hard. I'm working out, I'm going to the gym. I'm eating the healthy things. It's just not coming off like I want to, but your snide remarks really hurt me." So the boundary becomes, "Please don't make any more snide remarks about my weight." And the consequence is that if you do, "I'm going to walk out of the room. I'm going to remove myself from you because it's hurtful."
And then you've got to follow through with it. You got to walk away. You've got to remind them; you've got to help them break that habit by doing that. Remind them say, "Hey, remember you agreed to that boundary. You weren't going to say that anymore, but you did." And always keeping the goal is to make your marriage healthier. It's not to punish each other it's to say "That hurts when you say that, please don't say that. If you do, I'm not going to be around you, at that time."
And, so, real practical ways to do that, to make your point. And it's not being mean to your spouse, it's helping them understand how to love you better.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, well, really, and in that example, and in a lot of the examples, it's just being kind and considerate of the other person. I think that sometimes maybe we don't realize that we haven't considered them until you run up into a boundary to stop you and, so, it's a good way.
I think about that with kids, people say "Kids love boundaries, even though they don't want them or don't like them." But really, boundaries to children bring security. If they know my parent cares enough to put this enforcement here, that's security for them. And, so, it can work the same way in a marriage. If we say, "Hey, no, I'm not okay with being in this heated, escalated argument. Let's walk away, let's cool down." Or whichever thing you're talking about.
It's kind of saying, "Okay, we're going to agree to have a different standard for ourselves. And we're going to set that together because we care enough about this marriage to put those things in place. That we're going to step into a healthier place."
Dr. Kim: That's really good. Yes, it's realizing it's not your spouse trying to control you. It's your spouse telling you how to love them better, to make your marriage better. To help them, to put any barriers that might be there between growing your marriage and relationship.
And, so, if you just reframe that, then, boundaries become something that is like, "Well, I'm so thankful that she set that boundary. Because now I know that that bothered her or that upset her, or when I did that, that was not good for our marriage and now I can honor that." And you're going to have a better marriage because of that. And it's working as a team together in that.
And, so, setting a boundary is not being mean to your spouse. Setting a boundary is giving them information that they really need to do better at loving you.
Lindsay: Oh, that's so good. That's such a good way to look at it. So this conversation has been really full of information, it's been packed. Do you have any final piece of advice for us, Dr. Kim?
Dr. Kim: One thing that I wanted to do in this, is to diffuse the fact that boundaries are not rules, they're not regulations, they're not laws, they're something to help your marriage. I want you to see it that way. And, so, then, when you do that and come in that "I'm not trying to punish my spouse, I'm trying to give them information to make our marriage better." That then you begin to see the value in boundaries and how those can work to make your marriage better. And that's really what I want.
And if you haven't set boundaries, I would encourage you to pick an area that you feel like, "Hey, this would really make our marriage better." And communicate that to each other, take that first step.
Lindsay: That is so good. Well, I've loved this conversation about boundaries and how to set them. And your wisdom on this is so helpful, Dr. Kim, because you have so many great examples to draw from. That's super helpful. So as you're listening, if you have not subscribed to our podcast email list, yet, please do so because that's where we put our noteworthy quotes, our bonus content, our application questions. We try our best to make this podcast be practically applicable to you in your marriage, wherever you are today, that's really our goal.
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[00:48:38] < Outro >
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