Boundaries & Marriage: What NOT to Do | Ep. 550
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Today on the podcast, we're going to talk about what healthy boundaries do and don't look like. We want to troubleshoot the confusion and frustration that boundaries can bring, when they're not working like they should and what to do about it. So, Dr. Kim, to start off the conversation, what are some of the reasons that we might be reluctant to implement boundaries, in the first place?
Dr. Kim: There can be some anxiety and some fear in that even. Maybe, "What if they don't work?" Not sure if you can follow through the with consequences. Sometimes it's guilt, "Okay, we're not going to go to your parents over Sunday, for lunch." And you know that's the best thing for you and your family, but there's guilt there. And people think, "Am I being selfish?" We can self-talk a lot of negative things in that. That just keep us from taking that step because for a lot of people, it is a big step.
If you grew up with boundaries and you grew up with a family that used them in healthy ways, it's probably pretty easy for you. But you're really the exception, most people didn't grow up knowing how to set healthy boundaries. And, so, then, you've got some things to work through and maybe it's the fear of just who that person is and, "How are we going to take that or how do I communicate this to them?"
So a lot of things can go into not doing it and, yet, that's probably not helping either. It's more, "Okay, I am fearful about this." Acknowledging that and "What do I need to do to set boundaries?" And that's where maybe talking to a pastor or a counselor could really make a difference, before you even take that step.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. Those are really good and, I think, about how hard it would be to set a boundary with the parent, if you know they're going to guilt trip you. Or with a spouse, if you think that it might be hard to explain, or something like that, it's going to take some work. So, I think, that's a deterrent right there, just trying to figure out what the boundary is, how to set it in the first place, how to have the conversation.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, if you have that fear, it probably is a good red flag for you of knowing, "There needs to be a boundary here because of how I'm feeling about even setting a boundary."
Lindsay: Right, that's a great point, yes, that's true. You did a lot in our last conversations about setting them, and how to set them to dispel the fears. Because really what we've talked about is that they're going to make everything healthier. They help each individual to be healthier and each relationship to be healthier. So the message you've been giving us is it's worth the work, even though it is going to take some work.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, there are a few more reasons that I can think of that people might not want to set them. Which would be just being a people pleaser, being afraid of rejection. You mentioned being afraid of seeming selfish or feeling guilty. Or, on the other hand, if you don't like to be vulnerable, if you don't like to ask for help, that can be difficult to navigate. And also fear of being hurt if it doesn't go well. Say, for example, you tried to set boundaries before, it was a disaster, you're not going to want to try again. So there are a lot of reasons we might shy away.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I think that's a good point. If you've set boundaries and know that what needs to be said it's unhealthy and it didn't go well, the person didn't accept it. That may help you see that there's another step you may take, and that might be, even for a period of time, cutting off a relationship. The only person you can control is yourself and we've talked about that a lot.
But you've got to remember that in all of these kinds of things, just because you set a boundary doesn't mean things are going to, magically, go the way you want them to. It may be just a first step and there may be some other steps, or it may be the step that makes a difference. But, again, you can only control yourself.
Lindsay: Gosh, that's a great point. I think that's really important to note, and if we could put that in bold, all caps, it might not be magic, it might be just the first step. That's really helpful information because we can't expect that we just throw these out and say, "Here's the boundary." And then everything just changes. You have to navigate relationships in a relational way. So that means there's give and take, and there's learning, and there's process, there's some trial and error. So that's super important.
Dr. Kim: Well, there are some people that just don't even know what boundaries are or never even looked at it. We talk about it because we understand them. We talk about in counseling because people know. But there are people that you may want to set a boundary with that have no clue what a boundary is.
So it depends, how do you express that? And maybe it's some communication you have to have beforehand. Yes, it's work, all that is work, but just think about where you are in the situation relationship now. Well, it's not going to get any better if you don't do something, and it's probably going to get worse over time. Hopefully, that encourages you to say, "Okay, this is going to be worth the effort."
Lindsay: Yes, that's great encouragement, that's really good. So if we're talking about, let's just take for example, the idea of if someone is a people pleaser. If they're listening and they recognize, "Yes, that's me." Or you say, "You know what, I hate being vulnerable and asking for help. And in this situation, I would have to be vulnerable and say, 'It hurts me when you do this. So will you stop?'" If you're in one of those situations; how can setting boundaries actually help you work through that and become healthier?
Dr. Kim: Yes, there's a problem when we don't take care of ourselves and our own needs. And, so, sometimes we do it by pouring into other people.
Because for a lot of people that gives them purpose or we want that acceptance, we want a connection. And, so, we do that at the expense of ourselves. And some people measure their self-worth by what they do for somebody else.
And, so, it's understanding that taking care of yourself is really important. It's a necessity, it's not some luxury that you give yourself. And when you get in those, a lot of times those relationships get to where they're codependent and basically you're placing that other person's welfare above yours. And, so, then, you lose yourself, your own needs, desires, and sense of love.
So a lot of it is just realizing it's okay to take care of yourself. You don't have to please other people. Really the only approval that we really need is God's because He loves you just the way you are. And the other thing, I think, when the Scripture talks about "Loving your neighbor as yourself." And that's a really good thing, you've got to love yourself well to love your neighbor well.
Even Jesus, when He was here on Earth, took time for rest, took time to be alone, took time to be with the Father, took time to be with just His closest friends. I mean, He set a good example for us. He could have been the biggest people pleaser of all time, but He didn't heal people 24/7. He, in His humanity, He took care of Himself, too, because He knew that was going to make Him healthier to help other people.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's so good, and that's such an important reminder in relationships. If we're working for a healthy relationship, we also need to be working for our personal health. And they go hand-in-hand, they always do, because it's growing both.
That's so good, and I love going to the Scripture for that, as well. Because another thing we see with Jesus when He was on Earth, He did not indulge bad behavior. When the Pharisees would try to entrap Him with questions, or trick Him, or ask these things to make Him seem guilty, He never played their game. He did not. And, so, He had a boundary there where He would not indulge that bad or deceitful behavior. And, so, I love the precedent that sets for us, we don't have to either.
Dr. Kim: I'm so glad you brought that up because I think Jesus was so good at setting boundaries, and He set the ones that needed to be set. He knew how to be consistent with them, all those things. He's a great model of setting boundaries in relationships or with unhealthy people. So I'm so glad you brought that up, that's awesome.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, I mean, no better model, for sure. And then it also brings into a really important point because when we bring up Jesus as an example, it's a little tricky. Because He did know everyone's heart, and He knew everything and was sinless. We do not have either of those qualities. We're neither omniscient nor perfect.
And, so, in marriage, it's just a helpful reminder that sometimes we'll need to set boundaries with our spouse because they don't know how they're impacting us unless we tell them. And, so, that's something I've needed a lot of reminding, in my marriage.
I would often be tempted to assume, "Oh, Brian should know how he affects me when he X, Y, or Z." But he can't know that unless I tell him.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: And, so, my assumption would be that if he wants to be a good husband, he would do what I want from my perspective. But in the reality, it's a two-way street. And, so, if I don't like how he's behaving in a certain way, if I'm not happy with something if something's not working, I have to let him know that. And, so that's part of the boundary process is simply getting on the same page. Being vulnerable enough to say, "Hey, this isn't working for me. Can we work together on something different?"
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, a really good example. And, I think, too, when we talked about Jesus being the model, yes, you're right, we have our humanness. But I think Jesus sets a standard that we want to strive for. Knowing that we're never going to get there, but we don't want to lower the standard because we're going to learn from trying to be like Him.
Lindsay: Absolutely, yes, that's so good, I'm into the conversation, that's pretty powerful stuff. That's so good.
Dr. Kim: Good.
Lindsay: So we're going to take a little turn here. So what are some of the red flags that you can tell us, that show that we're doing boundaries wrong?
Dr. Kim: Well, I think one of the big ones, and we've alluded to it, that you're focused on getting other people to change. Your focus is on trying to get them to change themselves. You can ask them. Boundaries are intended to help you get your needs met and to set a boundary that is affecting you. But you can't expect your boundary to change or control other people because you have no power over that, that's got to be their decision.
I think the other thing is anytime you set boundaries when you're angry, you're probably going to get in trouble. Either be too harsh. Maybe set a boundary that doesn't even need to be there, but you just do it when you're upset. And, so, they use it as punishment, then, a lot of times, which boundaries are not punishment. Boundaries are to make things healthier.
We talked about this a little bit earlier. But when you give in, when there's pushback, that's one of those things. And, so, sometimes you'll back off of doing boundaries, and maybe it's just that you need to think about it, pray about it, maybe talk to a counselor, and come back about it a different way. Because if it's something that's really important and you need to figure out, "How do I communicate that in a healthy way."
Sometimes boundaries can be rigid, and usually that is when we're trying to get something that may be trying to control. Again, boundaries have got to be realistic. Boundaries also, sometimes, we take the negative thing of this is a boundary because it's "What I want you to do or I don't want you to do, but also it's what I want. I want this relationship to be healthy."
And you don't want to lose sight of that, "I'm trying to make this relationship healthy." That's really the goal here. "It's not healthy, I want it to be healthy."
I think, too, I alluded to it, but not seeing it as punishment. When you're setting boundaries, the goal is to be kind, to be compassionate, to be considerate, but to be firm. I think the example you gave of Jesus and the Pharisees. He set a very firm boundary with them, "You don't do this."
Now when He was turning over tables in the temple. He was not being as compassionate and kind because He was very offended at that time, but it was a righteous indignation. So realizing that boundaries aren't designed to keep people out. That they're really meant to make it easier for people to get close to each other. And keep that in mind, your goal in most of these is going to try to make a relation healthy, and it can be everything it could be.
There are some people you're going to set boundaries with that just are not healthy. And until they get healthy, you know there's not going to be have a relationship with them or be able to get close to them. But, in general, with the people we're talking about, we want that relationship to be healthy and the boundary is just a way to help us get there.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good, there's a lot there. Those are really important and a lot of different red flags. And I feel like one that's come up, consistently, and we get a lot of questions about this, through our different channels, our email, and our direct messages and things.
A lot of times it comes down to people wanting to set a boundary that controls someone. And I think that's just how we view boundaries because we think we can say, "My boundary is that you do not X, Y, Z." We cannot make them not X, Y, Z, so our boundary has to be something we can say, "If you X, Y, Z, then I will not be able to remain present,” or whatever it is.
And, so, I think, that's a huge one. With all these red flags you listed. How have you seen them play out with the couples you've counseled? Can you give some examples or some tangibles there?
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think that with the red flags, if you're talking about a couple in marriage, you've got to get past the whole deal of "This person's trying to control me." A lot of times, in marriage, the boundaries are set out of anger and that doesn't go well. And, so, in counseling, we have to reset that, rethink that, maybe the core of it was something that needed to happen. But because you were angry it didn't come out that way, it didn't accomplish what it needs to.
And I think, too, just that whole thing of realizing that these are to make that relationship healthier and because sometimes couples will come in and they're just angry with each other. And, so, the boundaries they are thinking is just, "Why don't you quit doing this?"
Maybe some things need to be stopped but, again, you can't make them stop. We can only decide to put a boundary in there, and what the consequence is if they go there, and that's their choice. If they continue doing that, then, they're going to have the consequences.
And, so, with couples, it's helping them make their boundaries or set their boundaries in a way that they can both see the benefit. They can both see how this makes our marriage healthier. And then when they're working together to set boundaries outside the marriage, like we talked about in an episode. Again, that they're on the same page and they're trying to do those together.
So it's helping people that don't understand what boundaries are. But understand the best way to set boundaries, to accomplish what you want to accomplish. And it's got to be about you and how your life is not about what that other person does or doesn't do, because that's going to be your cue as to what you end up doing or not doing.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's really good, you gave us a lot to work on there and to refer back to. Because, like you said, if we're stuck on that, "Oh, you're trying to control me." Well, really, we do share the goal if we want our marriage to be better, I'm assuming in most marriages, I hope you do. And, so, if we're going to work together towards that goal, we both have to compromise and give and take a little bit.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think of one couple, it's unique in some ways. But this wife would admit that she had been very controlling and really just began to see that "That's not healthy for my marriage." And I think she read a boundaries book and, so, she wanted to set boundaries. But we had to work together to help her husband see, "She's not figured out a new way to control me."
Again, there's some education that goes into that, to help maybe the other person see, "Hey, no, we're trying to make this relationship better. We're not trying to put you in this mold. Maybe, she was trying to put you in the past, that's not the purpose now."
And, so, again, so much we talk about goes back to communication, understanding, listening, and sometimes having a third party in there. A counselor can almost say the same things, but because they're saying it, the spouse is going to hear it differently.
Lindsay: Yes, counseling could definitely be helpful for this, for sure. So are there any keys with this to ensure that we are setting a boundary, rather than trying to control the other person's behavior?
Dr. Kim: I think that if you can look at boundaries. I can't remember who I first heard gave this analogy, it may have been Andy Stanley, I'm not sure. But talking about boundaries being guardrails that you're going to set around behaviors, and communication, or exchanges, those kind of things. In order to improve the relationship or to keep you safe and healthy.
And, so, when you're setting a boundary, you're expressing your needs in this clear, direct way. You can't look at them as punitive or controlling and not look at him as manipulation. And, so, just making sure to check on that, and that's where a counselor can help so much. Of just setting a couple to work on boundaries together and keeping them from that. Because I don't know anybody that's been married that hadn't figured out that "If my spouse would do things my way." Their life would be better.
There is some of that, of thinking, "You're my wife and so you should be doing this or should be doing that."
So we got to get past that stuff and realize that your spouse can be who God created them to be, and you can be who God created you to be. And some boundaries may help you guys do that in a much easier and healthier way. And the goal is, eventually, that you don't need a boundary. That you've kind of worked outside of that, and you understand that, and it's like, "Wow, remember we set that boundary, what was going on then? I don't even remember but we don't need that now, and I've seen that happen.
Lindsay: Yes, sure.
Dr. Kim: The other thing is to ensure that it's good. Maybe, just making sure you're saying it very clearly, directly, but that it doesn't come off as you're telling them what to do. And then just to ask yourself, "Is this going to make the relationship healthier? Is it going to make it safer for you?" I mean, really, what is the bottom line? Is this boundary you're setting accomplishing what you feel you need for yourself to accomplish, and that it's going to make the marriage healthier?
Lindsay: Mh-hmm that's good, that's really good. That made me think of an example that we have shared in a past episode, in this series. Where we had to have a conversation in my marriage, at one point, and we didn't think of it as a boundaries conversation. Which, I think there are a lot of instances in marriages where we're having good, healthy boundaries, but not calling them that. And I think that's fine because it's for the health of the marriage. We don't have to frame it in that way.
But between Brian and I, because he is a lot more extroverted than I am. We had to have a conversation about when our friends are inviting us to do something and you want to go. But I say "I just really need a night home, with our family. We've been out three nights this week, can we stay home?"
I'd rather not that you then go say, "Yes, I wanted to go but Lindsay said 'No.'" And so that stinks.
And, so, we had a boundary conversation about that, it was not great. I was not enjoying that experience and he was really good about not doing that. But it was something we had to address, at a certain point, like, "Let's just be united on this and let's not throw each other under the bus." And it can go the other way, too, with like if there's family events and it's just been a lot in a row. And I don't say, "Brian doesn't want to come out."
And, so, I think in those situations we had to address that. But, at this point, it's not even a boundary anymore because we've both agreed and come on board, and we wouldn't even do that to each other anymore, because we've grown healthier. And I love that you said at certain points the boundaries might not be needed. Maybe you've just outgrown them and that could be really encouraging.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that just shows you that boundary worked, big time, to the point that got you guys on the same page with something, where you don't even need it. That's a great example, I think, where boundaries can be so good for a relationship.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that was important to me, to not look like the party pooper all the time.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I don't think I've ever done that. I think a couple of times I've told Nancy when I didn't want to do something. I said, "Blame it on me, I don't care." But that way I was giving her permission to do it.
Lindsay: Yes, that's a different story.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
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[00:23:49] < Music >
Lindsay: Okay, so say we're not in a boundary situation like that, say it's a tougher one. So if the two spouses have agreed to a boundary, but your spouse is crossing it. You've agreed on it, you already set it in place, they're just not adhering. What do you do then?
Dr. Kim: I think the first thing you do is don't assume that they broke it deliberately. That you may want to revisit it. Now, if this has gone on ten times, it's different. But say you've just agreed to it and then a few days later that they break it. So I think you want to revisit that and say, "Hey, remember that boundary we set? Let's talk about that."
Hopefully, they're going to say, "Oh, my gosh, thank you for letting me know. I'm new at this, I'm trying to figure it out. I really want to honor that." That kind of thing. And, so, sometimes, if they cross it, then maybe redraw the boundary. "What does it look like? Do I need to say it in a different way?"
And then the consequences. What are the consequences? Make sure that you're following through with those consequences. And, again, you can't see it as punishment, it is to make this thing healthy. The worst thing you can do is set a boundary and then not follow through with it, if the consequences need to be enforced because you've thrown away all that work. Now you've decided to set another boundary, you've got to rebuild the credibility. And you're starting below ground zero when you let those things happen.
So you want to address it. You want to not assume that they did it deliberately. You want to make sure they understand, talk about the consequences, and then follow through, whatever that is. And sometimes maybe the consequences need to be a little different. I don't know, maybe, walking out of the room doesn't work because they're following you. And, so, the consequence is "I'm getting into my car and I'll be gone for an hour, until you calm down." I mean, you may have to redo consequences in a way that they are effective.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's a good point. So maybe the consequence is not effective. so it needs to be revisited.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and we do that with our kids, don't you? Sometimes you do maybe a time out or you take something away and you figure out, "They didn't care I took that away."
And, so, it's like, "I got to find something that is a real consequence with them." I had one mom, one time, and she said, "Literally, now in his room is his bed, that's it. I've taken everything else out and he's still not doing what I ask him to do."
Lindsay: Wow.
Dr. Kim: This was a really smart, strong-willed kid, and very determined. So there were other issues we had to work on with him, but it was so funny. She would just take one thing away and she said, "Literally, today, he has nothing. His lamp is gone. His side table is gone. He's got his clothes in his closet, I'm not taking them away he's got to wear something. But that's all he's got and he's just still hanging in there."
Lindsay: Wow.
Dr. Kim: So, hopefully, your spouse is not that stubborn.
Lindsay: Yes, I hope not, that would not be fun. Because thinking of ways to enforce, in a marriage it's so different than parenting or even with other outside of the marriage relationships. It's just so different because you're working in a covenant relationship, you're sticking in it together, you're not trying to punish them. But you are trying to make sure that you're acting on these boundaries you're setting.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I think that is where working to where you buy into, both of you, understanding the value of boundaries and what they are together, really makes a difference. Because then you can both really be on the same page that these are necessary, and they will make our relationship and our marriage better.
And, so, it may be talking to a counselor about boundaries. Maybe you read a boundary book together, just to help you understand what they are and how they can be used. Because you're exactly right, in a marriage, one, you're together. And, so, if it's a friend that you're trying to set boundaries with, we don't have to see that friend every day, probably, it's really easy to set that. Well, when you're in the same bed with that person. Sleep, staying in the same house with that person, the more you can be on the same page with boundaries, the better.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, and, well, this is probably a good place to mention Boundaries in Marriage, the book by Cloud and Townsend. So they're going to go a lot into more detail than we have time for here, and give some suggestions on ways to make those things more actionable and enforceable.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it's probably kind of the number one book on boundaries. That when they came out with that, it was just life-changing for a lot of people and they put it in such a way to help you understand how to do them right.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, I think, it's important to mention, it's obvious, but we can only say so much here because everyone's context is different. We can't work it all out for everybody, unfortunately, but there's a lot more information available there and from a great biblical perspective.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: So let's flip it now, so say you have set a boundary with your spouse, but you're the one struggling to keep it and uphold it. What can you do?
Dr. Kim: Well, I think, if it was me and I was probably struggling, I would probably need to really sit with Nancy and have her help me understand why we're putting this boundary in place. Because maybe I haven't bought in with it. Yes, probably it is, I haven't bought in with it. She sees it's necessary, I don't see it's necessary.
So instead of fighting about it, you want to go back and sit down and say, "Okay, I'm having trouble understanding why this is important. I accept it is to you, but can you give me a little bit behind." And then really listen well when they're telling you that and then empathize, put yourself in their shoes. "Oh, yes, that makes sense of her because of things in her life, or because of things that are going on, or whatever it is, that makes sense now."
And, then, pray about it; pray about it together. Pray about separately, "Father, this is something that's really important to my husband or my wife, I understand that now. I'm still struggling with it. I really need your help in following this boundary, not resenting this boundary, and seeing it, and help me see that it's a benefit to my marriage." So I think it's going to your spouse getting some clarification, trying to understand, and then putting God in the middle of it.
Lindsay: That's good, and is there a place for accountability in this?
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's a really good question, I think, where is accountability in that? Of course, that's where a counselor comes in really helpful. Because we'll talk about something, we'll set something in place. They come back in two weeks and we evaluate what worked and what didn't work. And, so, you've got some accountability there, which I think helps huge.
So finding someone that you will both be accountable to. And maybe it's me and my best friend that I meet with, and we read the Bible together, and we pray together. And, so, that person when we meet, each week, is saying, "Okay, how are you doing with that?" And just praying for you in that.
So I think having some accountability, just like anything, it just helps. If I know I've committed to something and I know somebody, I got to talk to somebody about it next week, I'm going to do it. That's why I give homework in counseling, it's because it helps me know how motivated they are and hopefully it helps them grow, too. It's not just busy work, it's something to help them grow. And, so, it lets me know how committed someone is. And, so, I think it's the same type of thing.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's really good. And I can think of situations where we want to be able to hold our spouse accountable in an appropriate way. But in this situation, it seems like you would need a third party for that, is that right?
Dr. Kim: Yes, and it depends on the severity. I mean, if this is something where you've got somebody that is yelling at you and you're trying to stop them yelling at you, and maybe that's just their culture. I've had people that come from a yelling culture and to them it's nothing. And then some people it's an anger problem, it can be whatever it is. But that needs to stop in the relationship because it crushes you.
And, so, that might be one where you definitely will need someone else to help your spouse understand, and the accountability, and help them see how it benefits the marriage. The thing is with the boundary is that you want someone to hang in there, long enough, to see that "Things are better because I'm honoring that boundary than if I didn't honor that boundary."
And, so, you want to give time for that to happen and, sometimes, just helping people see it's not controlling. I mean, that's where a lot of people say boundaries and they think, "Well, they're trying to control me." And that's not what it's about. And some of that probably has come from people misusing boundaries or calling something boundaries, when it really is control. So that's why it's so important to understand it.
Lindsay: Yes, that's a good point, and a lot of it might come from communicating things in an unclear way. Maybe not letting the spouse know, "This really is important to me." And, so, going back to, you talked about rating things, how important is it. Maybe that's a good place to start, if they know this is actually really top of mind, it's very important, it's really getting in the way of our relationship. That would be more of a motivator rather than it's just some little nitpicky thing that I want to change.
Dr. Kim: Right, "I don't like the way you put the toilet paper on the roll. So the boundary is you have to do that or I'm going to hide the toilet paper." That's not a boundary, that's not something you do.
Lindsay: That's awful. That is a good example, though, and that gives a good context for, actually, what you've told us before is that if our spouse says, "This is important to me." Then it needs to be important to me also. And, so, we need to learn that when things are super important to them, we need to make them important to us as well.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, and, then, when you're doing that and your spouse is doing that, and it becomes just a habit that you put into your marriage. I mean, that's good stuff, that's going to help you grow. That's going to help you respect each other more, connect more, and see yourself more as a team. And those are all things that we talk about a lot, that we want in a marriage relationship.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, and I'm glad you mentioned the word habit. Because we've talked a little bit about how sometimes setting these boundaries, it's going to be hard to uphold our end of it if we're in the habit of the opposite. And, so, what you said about not assuming the spouse did it on purpose or with a negative intention, that's really important because it does take some work to break a habit.
And, so, if you've set this boundary together, but it's the first time you're trying to enforce it or enact it. It's going to be a little messy, at first, because you're breaking a pattern that you've had. And, so, there's just some human nature there to getting through that.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, that's a great point. It's replacing that habit with a habit that is going to make things better and, hopefully, that motivates you. But, yes, sometimes, it's hard to break habits.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, you're right, if they can stick with it long enough to see, "This is healthy." Then that's a great motivator because the reason you're trying to even do this in the first place is because something isn't quite working and you want to have a better situation.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: So let's move on to talking about some pain points. We could talk about abuse or addiction, or pornography. Let's just say it's an addiction and they have said that, "We agree, I'm going to change. I'm going to stop this addictive behavior." How can boundaries help in this situation? Because there's a little more going on there than if it's how we talk to each other.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and this is somewhere where if that is the situation, you really do need a professional, at some level. Someone who is a drug and alcohol counselor or works in this area, something like that.
The reason AA works is because people that are in there, the ones who run that, have been there before, so they understand it all. And if you're not an addict and you're trying to help an addict and you don't understand that, that can be a big problem.
So getting some counsel for someone, but I think you're going to have to draw the lines. "You're coming home every night, you're drinking, you stumble, you miss dinner or if you do, you're just slurring your words. And, so, you need to go to treatment. And until you go to treatment, we need you to live somewhere else."
Those are the tough love boundaries that are hard. But those steps, you can't make the person go to treatment, and you can't make them even work on it while they're in treatment. I've seen people go to treatment for a couple of months and come back, and they didn't go in with the right attitude. They didn't want to change. They were just doing this so they get back in the house.
And, so, those are hard situations and, I think, it's really something that needs a third party, in there that is a professional in that area. You mentioned pornography. "You've been looking at pornography. You promised me you're not going to look anymore. I keep finding evidence that you are."
It's not helping your marriage. "It's our marriage, and it's just making me feel like you don't look at me like I want you to look at me as your wife." Things like that. And, so, I need you to go to a SA group, Sex Anonymous group, or to go to treatment to help work out of that. Because I can't live my life with you having an adulterous affair with whatever's on the computer. So those are pain points, those are tough ones.
But there's also what if you didn't draw that line with the addict? What if you didn't draw the line about pornography? You're going to continue to live in a very destructive relationship that's not healthy for you, your kids. A lot of times I'll see a spouse get out or make that separation because they say it's affecting the kids. And I've seen women do it and I've seen men do it.
I had a woman that was an alcoholic and they'd come home, the kids would come home. The kids, I think the oldest one was eight, they had to fix their own dinner. They'd done this and that because she's passed out on the couch, again. And, so, it can happen both ways, it's not just the men in those situations.
So make sure you're safe. Realize what you can and can't do, get the help of a professional, and then be willing to follow through. Because if your bottom line is, "To come back home, you've got to go to treatment. And somebody's got to let me know that you are better, then, that's got to happen or you don't get back in."
Lindsay: Yes, that's going to be tough, but it's not going to get better on its own.
Dr. Kim: Well, either the person is going to have a wakeup call, which you hope. And, so, that things would get better or they continue that path, and you have to accept, "That's all I've done and I can't go back in that unhealthy relationship. I'm not going to divorce them because I don't feel like that's where I need to be at that time."
Maybe you do. "But my boundaries are going to stay clear and you're not going to be around me or the children, if you're drinking.
I want you to see the kids, but you can't come over drunk, you just can't do that. And I can't make you not drink at all, but I can enforce you not drinking around me or the kids."
And, so, the boundary may shift a little bit and, hopefully, you continue to pray that that person will get the help they need. And I've seen people come out of that and see their changed lives, and see how their marriage grows. And, so, it can happen and God can do that, those are just really tough. And I think it's real easy for us to continue to enable an addict because it's easier sometimes. But in the big picture, you're not helping them or yourself at all.
Lindsay: Yes, that's true. This is a place where there's quite a scale here, we've got some boundaries that are pretty simple, even though they're not fun. And then we've got some that are really tough, but we've got some little handholds for every step of the way. And, I think, that it is really important, like you said, Dr. Kim, if we're in that situation, we're going to need some help. We're going to need a third party, and we're going to need to go ahead and reach out to ask for help in that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and there's some great trained people that will help you.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. That's really good. So we've covered a lot, and we're beginning to get towards the end of our boundaries series. We have some more good content coming up to continue to make this more specific and precise. But as we end today's conversation about — how not to do boundaries, do you have a final piece of advice for us?
Dr. Kim: I'd like people to dig in and try to understand, really, make sure you understand what boundaries really are. Whether that's reading the book, or going to a counselor, or something like that. Realizing your limitations. Know what the red flags are.
Just making sure that your boundaries are to make the relationship better, your life better, knowing they're not punishment, and to work with your spouse. And it's not magic, it may take some time. It may be taking some time, so I could break some habits. But even if it is a pain point thing to know that you got to do that. You can't continue to live your life that way.
So what I would hope is that people kind of look at boundaries; do they need to be put?
What is a good boundary, what is not a good boundary?
And what do I need to do to make it a healthy boundary, a good boundary? And then you've got to follow through. That's so good, I've seen people that worked and worked to set a good boundary in place, and then just got pushed back, and just gave up. And then a year later just, "I can't do this anymore." And you don't want to get there, it's worth it.
Lindsay: You don't want to get there and you don't have to get there. You don't have to, you can just stick with it and, of course, any change is hard. Any change you make is going to take some getting used to. But, I mean, Dr. Kim, I love you just are constantly encouraging us that you've seen things. You've seen marriages be healed, and grow, and redeemed, so there is always hope there.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I don't think I stressed enough, every step of the way, pray. God has an answer. God always has answers that we don't have. And, so, everything that we talked about today, when you're setting boundaries, you're trying to look at them. Are they right or wrong, or good or bad or whatever? Pray about it, ask God's wisdom into that. Ask God's wisdom in how you communicate to your spouse. Really lean on Him, God wants healthy marriages. He wants healthy relationships. So He's going to show up, He just will.
Lindsay: Yes, that's so good. That's such a great encouragement and I love that it's prayer, it's relying on God's provision and His movement. But it's also we're taking responsibility to be obedient and do what's right in the marriage. So it's His empowerment, His spirit, His will, also our obedient steps of action.
So we're not sitting there praying, "God, just make this go away." Because that's typically not how He works. Typically, it's a combination of our prayer, seeking Him, and then our responding in obedience. So I think we've given some handholds for a lot of ways to do that, and that's a great place to land on - that prayer.
Dr. Kim: Great.
Lindsay: Well, next week we're going to be sharing real-life examples of boundaries in marriage. We have a lot of stories from our Awesome Marriage team, about how boundaries have helped their marriage in tons of ways. And, so, I'm excited to share those stories. Boundaries couples have set, how they implemented them and enforced them, and how it helped their marriage. So make sure you tune in for that.
As always, you can reach us anytime at info@awesomemarriage.com or in our DMs on Instagram. We love to connect with you. Thanks so much for sharing your time with us today. Have a great day, and do something awesome for your marriage today.
[00:45:02] < Outro >
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