Boundaries Outside Your Marriage | Ep. 547

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to the Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship. 

We have talked about boundaries inside of marriage, and today we're talking about boundaries outside of your marriage. So that's with family, and friends, and the opposite sex. And we could probably devote an entire episode to every single one of these categories, but we still definitely can't cover every possibility. So we're just going to get the conversation started. 

So, Dr. Kim, let's start today by talking about boundaries with family. Specifically, our families of origin and our in-laws. What are some boundaries needed in those family relationships?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think every couple, at some point, is going to experience something with family and they'll feel like, "Okay, maybe we need boundaries here." It might be unrealistic expectations. Maybe the family needs to see your marriage as a separate entity. And, so, all those things go into it. 

So the way you might look at it is, is there something that's going on that really is causing a problem for your marriage? And that could be extended family, something like that. Maybe expectations that one of the family origin has, that you guys are there for every Sunday dinner, and you have to be there every Sunday. And you're saying that maybe we want to have a Sunday where it's just us, or maybe we want to do this just maybe once a month, or something like that. 

And, so, sometimes, those are hard because you're bucking traditions. But you're doing that because it's better for your family. Could be somebody in your family that's unhealthy emotionally or they act unhealthy around you. And, so, you put some boundaries about that when you're around that person and what the conditions are. 

Maybe if it's somebody that over drinks a lot. That you're not going to be around that person when they're drinking and, so, anything. And one of the things that I see a lot, especially, with younger couples when they get married, is really establish themselves as a separate entity from the family of origin. 

I think in some families it's harder to break traditions or things like that. Or they want to still be involved and don't really respect the husband and wife relationship. And, so, sometimes you have to put some boundaries to just help them see you as "We are a separate entity. We're still part of you, we're still part of the family, our family of origin, but we are an entity in ourselves." And, so, it may take some boundaries to make something like that happen.

Lindsay: Yes, those are good. It's funny when you've lived them or seen them, it's very relatable. So those are great examples. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, I've said that a lot of times the family of origin, issues with younger families, but I've seen it with couples that get married later or maybe a second marriage. And, so, the boundary there, to respect the marriage and let it develop, might be with adult kids. And, so, those are some things. So it can come up in a lot of different ways. And the key is recognizing it and then together deciding, "What do we need to do? How are we going to handle this?"

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, I think we can get a lot more into this, too. But if the spouses are not really on the same page, is that going to be a hard conversation? I mean, how do we get that going?

Dr. Kim: Yes, it is. I think that it goes back to communication. It's being able to... and sometimes I have couples come to me with these issues, in counseling. And then what we end up doing really is setting some boundaries, and figuring how we can do that, and how you can communicate that. 

So, sometimes, one may see it, it's more of a problem than the other. But for any of those situations that you want to say, "Okay, what's the healthiest thing for our marriage? How does this affect my wife? How does this affect my husband?" 

And trying to help understand each other, which comes back to communication and really listening to your spouse's heart. And why they feel like this is important, or why this is something y'all need to act on together. So probably could take a lot of communication. But if you get stuck, and it's important, I think, it's a really good place to go to counseling.

Lindsay: Yes, for sure. Because I think that this could be a place where it's really hard to talk about. Because we've talked about how our family of origin is our normal. It's all we've seen. And, so, if you're going to try to come in, not opposition, but kind of swim upstream against a couple of the things. Like say everyone's at family dinner, nobody's ever asked you to come, they just expect you to come. 

And, so, they give you guilt trips, if you're not coming. Well, it's going to be pretty awkward to sort through your own feelings about your family, and getting some boundaries set there, enough to even talk to your spouse. And it's going to be complex. So I think communication is a key word, for sure.

Yes, I think so, and deciding. There may be something that you feel you'd like to see change. But it's not like if you do, I always like to do one to 10 scales, but maybe it's the two or three. And, so, you talk to your spouse about it and they're not really seeing it the same way you do. And, so, if it's not that important, you can let some things go. Because the ones you want to address are the things that are the eight, nines, and tens. That are really affecting you and affecting relationships.

Lindsay: Yes, that's a great point because that could be really overwhelming if you're trying to address everything. And it reminds me of something you said, in one of our earlier episodes, Dr. Kim, about never setting a boundary when you're angry. Not trying to solve things when you're angry. If you're really heated, wait till later, and that's going to help.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, because when I'm angry, I don't think real clearly and I might make an impulsive decision. I may make a decision or say something that I regret. And, so, in doing boundaries, you've got to separate yourself from it. And give yourself time to think through it, pray about it, talk to each other about it, and then make a decision.

Lindsay: Yes, that's good. That's a really good foundation. Some of the other things we've talked about, just sticking with this family of origin and in-law conversation. Some other things would be always discussing with your spouse before you agree to family activities or plans. Making sure your family understands that your goal is always going to be to honor your spouse. 

So it's not okay to make them the butt of the family joke, or to bash them, or be really passive aggressive. Or assume they should think the same way as your family of origin because they didn't come from the same family. And, then, also, a really important one, not letting your family's expectations interfere with your own expectations. So there's a lot there practically speaking, but I think those are all really important.

Dr. Kim: There is, and I think with Nancy and I, my parents were really good at this. I don't think her parents would've been as good, but we lived in Oklahoma City and not Houston. And, so, we were there for shorter periods of time and it was a little different situation. 

My parents were so good at letting us establish ourselves, for a while, we thought they don't like us because they didn't call us. And then they were just wanting to let us establish, and give space, and we've talked all that stuff out together with them. But I think from people I see in counseling, my parents were a little unusual in that, I think. Some people might see it a little differently. 

But I think as a parent with children that got married, and now have one granddaughter that's married. Just knowing how important it is to give them that space, and to let them. And not be overbearing, not put our expectations on them. Letting them develop their marriage the way God wants them to develop it. And, to me, it's a lot more fun to be there, sure, if they need something. But to watch them develop that and see where that goes, and what God does in their marriage. 

And, so, a lot goes back not only on the ones who need to set the boundaries. But in this situation with extended family, "How do we handle that?" As parents of a child that is married things, situations like that.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's a great point. And that's encouraging because even if we haven't seen that done. We could still start to think about it and look at how we're going to approach that, as the parents or the in-laws. But I also want to give some hope to people whose families are not really considering that. And they have never probably thought about this. 

And, so, to the couples who feel like they're alone in this, because their family is all used to doing things a certain way. Just know that there's a lot of people, a lot of couples just like you, navigating this and you can start to take some steps. It does not mean that you're mean. 

It just means you're taking the action to put your marriage in a really healthy place. And that's actually going to make you be able to relate to your family in a healthier way as well, which is a great thing.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, we're not saying it's easy, depending on your family of origin. Depending on how hard or easy it is, but it's worth it. And the longer you let it go in your marriage, I think, the harder it is to come back and do something. Because you've, kind of, told them it was okay for a long time, and now you're saying it's not okay. So the sooner you can address some of those issues, the better.

Lindsay: Oh, that's a great point. So let's move on to our own family that we have in our home. So if you're a parent, if you have kids at home, or if you have kids that have already moved on and grown up. What are some healthy boundaries to have with our own kids, as they're growing up?

Dr. Kim: I've read something this week that I thought was appropriate. And they were trying to talk about as parents that you draw a boundary line around yourself. Because you want to define where you end and where your child begins. In other words, it's being a parent, but still let them become who they need to be. 

Because kids, they're going to push boundaries. Kids push boundaries. I mean, they want their way, just like we all do. And, so, they're going to try some different things. Kids are wired to test us, and see how far they can go. That's just part of them learning and growing. 

So maybe a couple of examples say that you have a 13-year-old, and they are consistently walking in the bedroom door of you and your spouse without knocking, and don't respect your privacy.

Well, there is a great place that a boundary needs to be in. That "You need to knock before you come in." Something like that. Maybe you've got a child that's maybe they're eight or 10, and they're interrupting conversations that you're having with other adults. Without saying anything, they just come in and start talking, don't wait for their chance.

And, so, talking to them and say, "Hey, the boundary is, unless it's an emergency you stand there, and as soon as we finish that we'll talk. Or if it's something you think is important you can say, 'Excuse me.' But don't just barge in." 

And, so, part of it is just some life skills you're developing with boundaries. And I've seen situations where maybe... Well, I had a couple, a situation where a family was divorced. And, so, the daughter lives with the mom. But the daughter got to where she was taking the role of the husband and telling the mom what to do. And how to do her life and stuff like that. 

And, so, the boundaries had to be, "You can't tell me how to run my life. I'm an adult." Work on some things there, and how you're going to define life together with the two of them, moving forward. So those are things.

The example I thought of with a young child is a kid that throws tantrums, and throws themselves on the floor. The boundary there is helping them see that when you do that you're not going to ever get your way. That we can talk about it, if there are times we need to say no. And, so, there's a lot of just practical applications we can do with boundaries. 

And, I think, one, they help the situation as our kids are growing up. And we're teaching them then about boundaries. What healthy boundaries are. And, so, as they get to a certain age or get older, and maybe even with their peers, they're able to set their own boundaries. Because they've learned that from you and seeing the example that you set.

Lindsay: Oh, that's so good. That's really good. What I think of when you talk about those because I'm still living with all those ages and stages. We're out of the tantrums now, thank the Lord, that was so hard. 

Dr. Kim: You are.

Lindsay: That was a really tough span of years. 

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Lindsay: With all of my kids going through that, and all being pretty willing to state their opinions and make their emotions known. But what I think about is the sooner you're setting the boundary, just like what you said with the families of origin. The sooner you set it and enforce it with the child, the better. Because I found, I had four kids within seven years. 

And, so, my first one, we were trying to be so intentional and then we realized, whoa, we were a little too hard on her. She's just a little kid. By the fourth one, we were just tired. And, so, we let things slide. And, so, at a certain point we said, "Whoa, we've created a little monster here." And he is a wonderful and very fun 11-year-old now. But we had to go back and correct where we had let things slide. You gave the example of interrupting conversations. Oh, man, it was harder to go back and correct that. 

But I found that the sooner we'd set a boundary, it kept us from getting angry with the children. Because if we let it slide, and we got lazy, and didn't make that known. Then we would end up getting so frustrated and irritated with the child. But it wasn't the child's fault, it was our fault for not taking the reins, as a parent, and teaching them what was appropriate in that situation.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's really good and that's pretty common. I remember a girl I saw and she was, probably, 16. And she was the oldest of four, the youngest was seven. And her deal was, "He gets away with murder. They were things they had me doing this and this, at this age." And blah, blah, blah.

And, so, some of this, as parents, you get tired. And you're trying really hard with them, not that you don't try with all of them. But, you're right, you just get tired sometimes.

And, so, sometimes, the last one gets by with some things. Then you realize, "Okay, we probably need to take the reins in." But one of the things I was thinking in parenting, I think, it is different with our kids. In setting the boundaries, with kids you want to be really clear with it. And helping them understand the why of it. That you're trying to teach them not to interrupt. 

Because when you interrupt that other people may not hear what you're going to say, those kind of things. Help them understand why you're doing that. And then you got to be consistent with it. And sometimes parents fall down in this situation. So we tell them a boundary, we're very clear about it, but then we let it slide. And what we're doing, then, at that point, is telling them that "This really isn't that important because"

So you got to be consistent, and you've got to be firm with it. But be loving, these are your kids. And the other thing that's really important with kids, is when you see them honor the boundary that you praise them. You tell them you're so proud of them, "That's so good."

"Thank you for learning that."

"That's going to make things better for all of us." Things like that.

Lindsay: Yes, that's really good. Yes, it's interesting, too, I'm seeing as my kids are a little older. You gave an example of a teen trying to tell you how to run your life. And, so, my two older teenagers, 18 and 16, now. Are starting to see things and say, "Mom, you need to do this differently with my brothers." And I'll say, for me, I'm not going to set a boundary there because there's nothing they can really do. But I'll say, "Thank you for that feedback. When you have a child you can do that." And it's just funny because they see things so clearly with their infinite wisdom, as teenagers.

Dr. Kim: I know, absolutely, that's so good.

Lindsay: Yes, it used to rub me the wrong way and then I was like "You know what, they actually have no power here. I don't have to address that; I'll just say thanks."

Dr. Kim: Yes, I can remember that. Yes, and you just think, "Dude, you're 17 years old." But I would just let it roll off, too, most of the time like that.

Lindsay: Yes, it can be difficult depending on the moment. But, yes, it's a lot to learn in these ages.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it's reminded me, my son, Grant, was, probably, married and I think they may have just had their first child. And, so, we were sitting there talking one day and he just said, "Hey, I've never told you this, but I want to thank you for all the things you taught. How you and mom set..." I don't know if you used the word boundary, basically, "Set boundaries for us. How you used those things to teach us and all those things that I got mad about or didn't like, then. I just want to thank you that you did it."

And, so, a lot of times that comes around later and, man, it was really meaningful that he said that, and really believed it. And then I've seen him carry that out as he's raising his kids. That he's taking those things from us that he thought were effective and helped him, and doing the same thing with his kids. So that's pretty cool, too.

Lindsay: Yes, it really is very cool to hear that. So let's talk about boundaries with adult kids.

Dr. Kim: Yes. I just see a lot of people not setting boundaries. I think you've got to let your kids grow up. You've got to make them take some responsibilities. So I think, depending on the situation. A lot of times you're financially supporting the child, maybe through college or whatever. But there comes a time you've got to begin to reduce that or say, "By two months you're going to have to do your own car payment." Or "Next month you need to pay your own utility, or the phone bill." Or something like that. 

I think you want to help them establish that. So maybe you go and you help them set up their own bank account and say, "Okay, now, then, this is yours and the money that goes in there is yours. And you got to budget, you got to take care of it, that you don't continue to mix money." Things like that.

It was like when I was in college, I had a credit card I could use. There were limits on it that was part of my dad's. And then I graduated from college, got married, and that credit card wasn't available anymore, which was good. Because I needed to know that at 20 years old, it's like, "Oh, yes, I've got to take care of things myself."

And, so, that's really important, just that break. Some of those things that you do for your kids are great when you're doing for them as kids. But to let them know, really, along the way, "There's going to be a time that, that goes on you." And set that time and let them know that. That's really important. 

I think there's still a tendency, like we all have when our kids are younger, to want to rescue them. It's okay to let them make mistakes and suffer the consequences because you learn from them a lot. 

I think Nancy and I, when we look back, we learned so much from the mistakes we made, honestly. Because we were able to say, "Okay, we got to do something different here. This isn't working."

And I think – how long do you let your kids live with you? If it's after college and they're working, do they need to be paying rent. I mean, things like that that you need to do just to helping them adult. And, I think, a lot of kids have trouble adulting today. Just some of it is probably the pandemic, some of it is just our culture before we've been at this time.

And I think, too, making sure that as adults that you build, our goal was to have an adult-adult relationship with our kids. That needed to change from a parent-child relationship. 

And, so, the way we did that was really just backing off a lot and let them make decisions. And knowing that we were there, sure, if they needed something, or wanted some advice, or something. But it was always something that, too, if we gave advice, they always knew that if you don't take it, it's okay. We're not going to watch what you do. We're not going say something to you if you don't do what we tell you to do. 

And, so, I think, that's good. Helping them establish strong autonomy, so they know they can make good choices and be responsible for them. All those kinds of things. And then supporting them, supporting the kids in the choices. Maybe you've got a child that got an engineering degree and they've also an artist. And they decide, "Hey, for a year, I want to see if I can make this art gig work. Financially I can do it on my own and everything."

And instead of going, "You just got this engineering degree. What do you mean you're going to take a gap year to see if you can do art?" Well, support that, and let them do that because they're going to learn from it. Maybe they'll become a great artist and they make a lot more money out of art than they would've an engineering job. But they need to do that.

The situation I'm thinking about it was a guy, he was a single guy. He wanted just to see if he could break into that, if he could do that. If people would like his art. And, so, what he ended up doing, at the end of the year, he went and he got an engineering job, and art is a hobby now. 

And, so, he still might enter something in art shows and stuff but, at this point, that's not his bread and butter. But if the parents would've just stopped him from doing that, I think, it would cause some resentments. And it was very helpful that that adult child had their parents' support, in that situation. I went all over the place, but there's a lot.

Lindsay: Yes, there's a lot. So I have a follow up question on that. When you're saying support in that situation, do you mean financially, or emotionally, or both? 

Dr. Kim: Emotionally. Now, that doesn't mean that there might be situations where you might not or you might help somebody. But in this situation is, basically, just that "If that's what you want to do, that's great. You've got your side job and you've got some income that comes from that and you're willing to live on that, while you explore art for a year. Then that's great, go for it. We want to see what you do. We want to see your art. We want to come and look at it." Those kind of things. 

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's great. I really want to clarify that because I think we learned quickly, after Brian and I got married. That there's a lot of different assumptions about how parents would support their adult children. 

So a lot of people we heard referring to getting financial support, even as a married couple, or getting help, or gifts in that way. And that's not something we were familiar with. But it was interesting because people would assume everyone does what I do. 

So everyone would think, "No support, we have none of that." Or some people would think, "Well, everyone gets support, everyone gets help." So it's good to define this because we're all coming from different contexts and experiences, and it's important to know that that's okay.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I agree, and each situation is unique, very definitely. I've had people I worked with that the parents gave X number of dollars to help them have a down payment for a house, and that was just a gift. It wasn't anything to be paid back. 

And, so, there's a difference, also, when you're doing something to help them as a gift. I think loaning money to anybody is usually not a good idea. Not family or friends, just because it becomes a barrier there. And what if you've loaned your child some money and they're not paying it back, and it's tense when you're around them. 

And, so, to me, Nancy and I always decided friends or family, we're not going to loan anybody any money. We're going to say no, but we might give it just because we don't want any strings attached to that. I think you just have to be wise and prayerful in your choices.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's good. I think, in a lot of ways, it's not right and wrong, it's just situational. And God can lead you wherever you are, in which situation you're in.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Lindsay: So that's good. I feel like there's a lot to flesh out there. I wish we could spend more time talking about each of those because those are a lot to learn. How to have those good boundaries.

Dr. Kim: It is. And, sometimes, we think, well, one stage is easier than the other with it. But probably the adult kid thing, I see a lot of people struggling with that. Well, I see it both ways. I started to say it seemed like I see it a little more with singles, maybe single women. So, again, it goes with each situation and what's going on in there.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, well, and one thing I'm realizing more and more is that if you're able to live a long life. Your adult relationship with your kids will last probably a lot longer than your parent-child rearing years with them. So there's a lot to navigate.

Dr. Kim: Yes. I love the relationship we have with our kids, and I love as adults and talking about adult things. And just having those as best friends of your kids as adults, and that's really fun. I didn't want to parent longer than 18 years, anyway, that was long enough. It was time to let go of it. 

Lindsay: That's a great point, yes.

[00:25:49] < Music >

Lindsay: You've heard how many questions I have for Dr. Kim. How do I know what boundaries to set? 

How do I make them enforceable? 

How do I communicate them? If you have a lot of questions, too, we've created a new resource that is going to help answer a lot of those questions. The Marriage Boundaries Workbook: A Simple Guide to Boundaries for Your Marriage. 

The workbook shares several areas where boundaries might help you, your spouse, and your marriage become healthier. And the process to implementing them. Your marriage is worth protecting. So it's worth learning how to set healthy boundaries. 

If you have boundary questions, like I do, check out our Marriage Boundaries workbook for answers. You can find this helpful resource at awesomemarriage.com/resources or using the link in our show notes, today.

[00:26:41] < Music >

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[00:28:05] < Music >

Lindsay: Let's move on to boundaries with exes or co-parents. What are some good basic standards?

Dr. Kim: Well, the main thing is, do everything you can to eliminate conflict, at least from your end. I have very few parents that I see, that are divorced, that are able to communicate healthy, honestly. There seems to be junk that gets in the way. 

One of the things that it's a boundary if there's a visitation, custody schedule, that you follow it. That you have a parenting plan and make sure you're doing what you need to do. And if your ex is a narcissistic, or a high-conflict person, or a toxic person, you just don't want to buy into those. Probably one of the reasons you're not with them is because that was not something you could live with. 

I've got couples that only communicate by text and it's very to the point. And most of the time just includes logistics of when to pick up, or there's a program your son wants you to come to things, those kind of things. 

I think with an ex, too, some things are really important are only to communicate about the child. You don't talk about your current marriage with your ex, those kind of things. With an ex the reason that you guys are still in contact is because of this child. And, so, you keep your communication about that child only.

I think it's always scary when a couple is divorced and one starts dating, and it looks like it's getting serious. I mean, you can't pick your ex's spouse and your only concern should be, "How does this person treat my kids?"

Other than that, you really don't have a right to say anything in a situation like that. Just do what you can as a parent. I mean, sometimes the boundaries you might set with an ex are you'll have the boundary but they don't even know what it is because they're, they're going to fight it or whatever. 

And, so, you are concerned with their parenting. So you don't tell them how to parent, you just do the best you can when you have the kids. You teach the kids. And I've always seen there comes a time when the kids see the difference. So that seems to happen just regularly. 

And the other thing, with a boundary is don't bad-mouth your ex or the co-parent, any of those kind of things like that just don't do that. That's not going to go anywhere. Kids will be confused with that. Sometimes kids will use that against you. Because they'll tell the other and they'll try to get something out of the other. 

I mean, kids are just human. If they figure they can get between the two parents and get their way, most kids are going to do that at least once or twice. So those are just some things, they're tough situations. I've seen some couples do it incredibly well. Where they really went for what's best for the kids. They communicated well about the kids and they kept it just the kids. And, so, that's the healthiest way to do that. If you've got two healthy people that are trying to do this, in a healthy way, that's the ideal. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, but I love that you're saying you can still, personally, decide how you're going to respond and interact. And that would help eliminate some potential for conflict, for sure. Which is a great thing for everyone.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. I think you realize we can't control other people. And the sooner we realize that and realize the only thing you can do is with yourself. And then with God's help you do the very best you can and what that other person does, you can't control that. That is hard to accept, sometimes, but it's essential to get there and accept it.

Lindsay: Yes, that's good. That's really helpful. So let's move on, now, to boundaries with our friends. This one you gave us a great example of when you guys were first married, and your buddies would come over to watch the game. They'd just swing on by anytime. 

I lived that in my marriage as well. I came home, Brian and I both worked in the service industry, waiting tables, and we worked opposite shifts. So I would get home and find just a bunch of dudes at my house and I was not into that at all. So we had to have a conversation about, yes, we need to have a have a plan before people just swing by anytime. What are some other boundaries to set with friends?

Dr. Kim: I think you've to be cautious about what you say to your friends, about your marriage. I always say I think women, especially, but even guys do, too, we need somebody to confide in. But you don't want to try to make your friends take sides in your marriage or anything like that. 

I think, two, is being really cautious with things that are private between the two of you. That you don't just share everything. And if it's something that you have a question about that you take time to ask your spouse, "Hey, I would like to talk to Bob about this. Is that okay?" And if your spouse says no, then, it's, no. 

I think, too, another thing if you're with a group of friends that you don't say or do anything in front of them, that you would not say or do if your spouse was there. I think that's a good filter to put things through.

And, then, the other big things are the fact that you want your friend, just like your family of origin, to see you as a separate entity. To see you strong. That you want to model marriage for them. And, so, if you have unhealthy friends, in your life, it may be time to either put boundaries about it and say, "This is what we need you to do." Or you just back out of that relationship. 

I see that a number of times with couples when they get married, especially. Couples get married younger, twenties, something like that. That there may be somebody that the guy was really good friends with, great guy. But he's a drinking buddy, and the guy you hung out with.

And, so, getting into marriage that relationship is just not healthy anymore. That was something for that single season in your life. That's not something that you bring into your marriage. So you have to put some boundaries on that relationship or maybe you eliminate that relationship. And those things are okay. Don't resent them because they're going to make your marriage better. And if your spouse sees you choosing someone else over them, that's never going to go well. 

Lindsay: Yes, that's a great point. That is not going to go over well, no. Not at all. And a lot of the ones you shared, it's a lot of just the idea of going from 'Me' to 'We', so you're considering your spouse.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.

Lindsay: Yes, there are a few other ones that we thought of that were; not agreeing to plans or committing to plans without talking to your spouse first. And that includes inviting a bunch of people over to your house.

Dr. Kim: I have a question. When you walked in and all these guys are sitting around; how did you communicate to Brian that this isn't really good?

Lindsay: I think it was some good old non-verbal communication. I can remember pulling up and they had a grill. They were grilling out on the front porch or something. And I just came in the door, I probably slammed the door. I probably stomped off, I just didn't even know what to do.

Dr. Kim: Because you had no idea they were going to be there, until you pulled up the garage? 

Lindsay: No, I did not know. Of course, no one else was married, yet, so I was the one mean wife. At the time it was just not a good look for anybody. It was like, "What's up with her?"

Dr. Kim: Exactly.

Lindsay: Yes. And, so, we got that under control pretty quickly because it was embarrassing for both of us. We did not want to repeat

Dr. Kim: No.

Lindsay: Yes, but I loved when you shared a similar story of your guy friends just showing up because it's like, "Okay, phew, we weren't the only ones that's good."

Dr. Kim: No.

Lindsay: Didn't think to talk about it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and I think when you have a group of friends that you're around a lot. And you're the first ones to get married, you experience things like this. Because nobody else has experienced marriage. So they're not thinking about the way you are and it's just like, "Hey." Like with Nancy "She's great, she like our new buddy." No, it's going to be different. She is a wife; she is not the new buddy in the group.

Lindsay: Yes. So this leads me really well into the next one that I have. I would like to articulate here is if you do agree with your plans, with your spouse. If you guys agree not to do something, please don't throw them under the bus. 

Don't say, "Oh, I would love to do this but he said, no." Party kill. I think that's an important one when you agree to things be a united front. 

Dr. Kim: Yes. 

Lindsay: I also think it's very valid to discuss, "Is it okay if friends drop by? If so, who and when?" Like what time at night, what time in the morning, whatever, on a Saturday. Just articulate that, it really can't hurt to articulate that. And are there some friends that we aren't really that comfortable with. That aren't as healthy for our marriage and that we don't quite feel like we would want to have stopping by or we'd rather not prioritize plans with? I think these are all good topics.

Dr. Kim: I do, too, those are really good. I thought about it and we've kind of talked about the guys having dropped bys. I remember a couple, where really her best friend was always coming over all the time. And every time he'd come home from work, the best friend would be there.

And, so, they had to talk about that and she had to talk to her friend. "There's certain times you can't just drop by. There's times that I want to be with you, but we've got to put more structure on it now than I'm married." So it, it goes both ways.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, well, and I'll go ahead and tell on myself, too, because Brian was doing, you know, random cookouts a couple of times, but I would do the reverse. I would plan, I was still in college when we got married. And, so, I was acting like a college kid. I wouldn't do anything crazy. But I would have girlfriends that used to be my roommates, before I was married. So I would come back for a girl's night and have a sleepover. We would watch romcoms, we would eat popcorn, it was a great time. We would have girl talk. 

And, so, there were times I planned those, spontaneously, and didn't really talk to Brian. I would just say, "Hey, I'm going to be out tonight." Which, now, that I think about it, I wouldn't do that now. But as coming from that background of having a house full of roommates, where there was always girl stuff going on. I didn't really think about calling the girls first, telling them what was going on first. And I really had to make a conscious shift to making him my first go-to.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's good.

Lindsay: Okay, so, finally, Dr. Kim, let's talk about the category of boundaries with the opposite sex. So this is something, as a counselor you've seen a lot. So what are the non-negotiables you suggest for all couples?

Dr. Kim: Yes, and I know some people are going to go, "Well, that's rigid or that's archaic." But in my experience is, of course, the first one is never be alone with someone of opposite sex. I just think it's not worth it. I've seen way too many affairs start that way and the people would all say, "I never thought I'd have an affair and I was working with this person. And, so, yes, we had to meet together a lot for our job."

Or "We would have a lunch together or dinner together because we're working on a project." It's just not healthy. And, so, what I counsel them, if you're in a work relationship and you have to have dinner or lunch with some of opposite sex. Take somebody else along, have your spouse come. Put a third person there, if it's all possible.

I had one guy that, usually, he did that but he ended up not realizing that the person he was meeting with was a woman. Because he had a name that could go either way for a business lunch. So when he got down at the table and he said, "I need to call my wife." And right there in front of her, he said, "Hey, I'm having lunch with so and so, I just want you to know we're at so and so, and I love you." Well that's sent a huge message to the other person. And not the other person was going to think about doing anything. But just set a boundary up there of, "Here is a line you don't cross."

I think you got to make your boundaries clear, even with people like doctors or professionals, things like that. Because we hear some things that go on there. Just don't put yourself in a situation with the opposite sex that makes you uncomfortable, or makes you feel unsafe, or makes you feel you're vulnerable, and the vulnerability is it. If you're attracted to someone don't put yourself in those situations, just don't. 

Same thing with not being a social media friend with old boyfriends or girlfriends. I know a lot of people do that. But people forget there was a reason that's an old girlfriend or boyfriend. You broke up with each other, at some point, for some reason, and it wasn't because the relationship was great. And, so, grass can look green all of a sudden or greener than where you are and, so, you have to set boundaries. 

I know a lot of couples that their Facebook page or some is both of them, together, and that's okay. And it's okay if you don't, but make sure your spouse has access to all those things. And that you keep really healthy boundaries in the things that you post and the things that you respond to. 

Lindsay: Mh-hmm. 

Dr. Kim: I think texting people of opposite sex just casual, for fun, unless your spouse is on the text as well. I mean, most of the texts I send or I interact with people or friends, Nancy's on the same thing with that. And if you have to text things for work, you keep it at work. It's not, "Hey, how's your day doing?"

Or "How is that mean wife of yours?" You don't do things like that. You just don't open those doors.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm. 

Dr. Kim: And if you do begin to feel yourself emotionally attached. Because, usually, that's going to start first or visual attraction, whichever it is, you shut it down. It's not worth it. It's not worth even that quick fix of just feel good, being around that person or talking to that person. You just don't need to go there. 

What it shows you is there is something missing in your marriage. And you need to go to your wife or your husband and say, "I felt vulnerable and this is an area we need to work on. Let's work on this together. Do you think we need to go to counseling to work on this?" Let those temptations turn you back into your marriage, into doing what needs to be done in your marriage, and build on that. This is a person you stood in front of God, at some point, and said, "I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you."

Well, sometimes it takes a lot of work to make that happen. And, so, turn yourself back into that. So you shouldn't get any needs met in a relationship outside of marriage that are designed to be met in marriage. From communication first to, obviously, physical relationship, all those kind of things. 

Lindsay: Mh-hmm.

Dr. Kim: And if your marriage is in trouble, turn into it. Focus on fixing it. Don't share about it, vent about it, to the opposite sex. Don't go looking for a quick fix, work on your marriage. And those are the things, those kind of boundaries, with the opposite sex and how you handle things are going to put a wall around your marriage of safety. 

And I don't think 10 years later or a year later, even, you're ever going to regret doing that. All the other things, the opposite of what we just talked about, you're going to regret. At some point, you're going to regret that, it's going to come back to haunt you.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, I think that's a great point. Those are all really solid recommendations. And I do think, too, if there's pushback on those boundaries, I think, it's important to say why. Like what is to be gained from not having the boundary, I don't think there's much. 

And a lot of us, and you've said often that we're the most vulnerable when we don't think we're vulnerable. So I think a really great practice, in the first place, is you just have to be really honest with yourself, and with God, and just say, "Lord, search my heart." And when you have those thoughts of like, "Well, I don't need this boundary, I can do without it." Why? Ask God to help you search your heart and help you be humble, and admit the vulnerability. Because if you don't admit vulnerability, then you're at your most vulnerable. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and the other thing I think is important, probably, to say here is that temptation is not sin. I mean, Jesus was tempted and we know Jesus never sinned. And, so, because you're tempted it does not mean you've done something wrong. We're all going to have temptation, it's what you do with that temptation. Do you, do you lean into it or do you back away from it, or run from it? That's probably the best thing to do is run from it because we are all vulnerable. 

People that I talk to that get into affairs, it's like, "I just didn't think it was do anything that we just met at the coffee bar, every morning, and just talked for a while." You're just planting seeds and it can take the next steps so easily. And, so, you just don't want to go there. 

Lindsay: Yes, I agree, and I think, too, that we've shared a few stories of affair recovery, on the podcast. And that's kind of a theme they've shared is "I didn't really think it would go anywhere and then suddenly, boom." And I've heard the analogy that when we entertain a temptation or we nurture a temptation, it's like playing with a baby tiger because you think it's cute and cuddly. And then suddenly, before you know it, that thing has teeth and it will take you down. It's not worth playing with.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's a great example. Absolutely, that's a great visual.

Lindsay: I thought so, too, when I heard it, I was like, "Yes, that's about right." So I've experienced in my relationship, or in my marriage. We do the same thing you do, we're not texting opposite sex, unless, for work there might be things. But if we're going to be bantering it's with a group where Brian and I are, both, on it. Not everyone has the same boundaries. So there have been times where I've received a text from a male friend, and I have just not answered. I didn't say "I'm setting a boundary with you." I just didn't answer it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's great. I think that was the best decision, sometimes it sends a message. I'm just trying to think if there's any exceptions that we have, now. We have a group that we're very close to and we're all on the same thread, all the time of talking to each other. And the only time Nancy or I, either one, gets a text from somebody of the opposite site has to do with work and you answer the text and that's it. 

A guy will text Nancy and "I wanted to show this house that you have listed." It's the way they communicate. So she says, "Yes". She doesn't go, "How's your marriage? How are you doing today? Last time I saw you, you looked a little down, I hope you're better." No, you don't do that.

Lindsay: Yes, and that guideline that you gave before about friends. Don't say or do something you wouldn't be comfortable saying or doing in front of your spouse, I think that's always a great guide.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and the other thing is God is always there. And, to me, when I keep that perspective, it makes me think twice about doing something that would not be healthy for me, and my marriage, or anyone else. 

Because God is always there and not only does He know what we do, but He's also there to say, "Hey, you know what I'm feeling right now, God, help me get out of this." And use Him as your way out.

Lindsay: Absolutely, because the Scripture tells us "When we're tempted He will provide a way out. Resist the devil and he'll flee from you." That's great news.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Lindsay: And it's worth mentioning before we get off this topic, that as a married person, if you've been married for any number of time. At some point you will experience those temptations. The grass will look greener somewhere else. And like you said, Dr. Kim, that doesn't mean you've sinned. But you do need to be honest with the Lord and find the way out.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, let somebody else mow that grass. Mow your own grass.

Lindsay: Sure, exactly, yes, use some fertilizer. Well, this has been a really helpful conversation. We have covered a lot of territory here. I feel like we've opened up a lot of conversations. What is your final piece of advice to close this conversation down, today?

Dr. Kim: A couple of them I hope for this is, sometimes, we don't realize all the ways that boundaries can help our marriage. And going through some of the things like we did, today, from family of origin, to friends, to kids, to adult kids, to exes, those kind of things that we all face. And, so, what I would encourage you to do is think through those relationships. Sit down together and think through those relationships. "How healthy are those relationships?"

"Do we need to have those relationships?"

"Is there a boundary that would make those relationships healthier or better for us?" And, so, hopefully, this will spur some discussion between the two of you, depending, on what stage of life you're in and which one of those are most applicable to you. And I would encourage you, too, if you see something that needs to be done, take that step and make that decision together.

Lindsay: Yes, that's so good. And that gives us a great place to start making this really tangible. And, now, we've talked about what boundaries are. Types of marriage boundaries that can help. And then next week we're going to get more specific about how to set boundaries. So make sure you tune in and don't miss that episode.

As always, you can reach us at any time at info@awesomemarriage.com or in our DMs on Instagram. We love to connect with you and we answer all of our emails. Thanks for sharing your time with us, today. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage, today.

[00:50:17] < Outro >

Announcer: Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few with music by Noah Copeland. 

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