How to Regain Trust With Your Spouse After Porn | Ep. 562

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

Last week, we talked about how porn affects a marriage, and this week we're talking about how to rebuild trust after your marriage has been damaged by porn. If you're in this situation you already know how painful it is. So how do you, then, begin to regain trust in your spouse, after they have been watching porn? 

There are so many couples dealing with this issue, and it's really painful, and we want our help our show to reach as many of them as possible, with God's hope for healing. And you can actually help us do that, simply by leaving a rating and a review of The Awesome Marriage Podcast. You can do that wherever you're listening today. They only take a minute to leave, but they really do make an actual impact on the visibility of the podcast and help new listeners find the show, and learn the biblical marriage advice that we're sharing. 

So today we're starting out with a listener question. Dr. Kim, are you ready?

Dr. Kim: I'm ready. 

Lindsay: So this listener asked us, "My husband thought he was doing me a favor by watching porn and not bringing his needs to the bedroom, as I was too tired. When I discovered what he was doing, I was devastated. I don't trust him. I don't know how to trust him, and I don't know how to build back the trust." So to start off, what are your thoughts on this statement that this husband says he was doing her a favor because she was too tired for sex. How does that affect the marriage?

Dr. Kim: Well, obviously it affected their marriage a lot, and it probably would almost any marriage. I think any time that we've got an issue in our marriage, whether we're talking about porn, whatever it is, we have two steps we've got to take. 

First we pray to God and ask for His wisdom and guidance, and second we talk to our spouse. I mean, I just think, so when he was feeling that way, what if instead of watching porn, he had gone to his spouse and say, "Hey, I'm struggling with this. I'm struggling with us not having our physical relationship, and I want us to work on that. Can we do that together?" I think she would've embraced that. 

She would've said, "Sure, we'll do that."

Instead, he made the decision to just step out of the marriage. So what she's feeling could have been completely avoided. I mean, he wasn't doing her a favor and, honestly, the guys I've talked to in that situation, I think you either get lazy, porn is easy, so you just don't want to put the effort in or you're selfish, and that all goes in together. 

You're just going to take care of me and I don't want to have to work on this. And instead of taking the time to pour into that, and then you've got the situation, then, if you've gone to the porn, that this wife says, and to me that's just an excuse. Obviously, she didn't see that and, basically, he's blaming her, he's getting back and saying, "Well, you're too tired."

And, so, maybe she did say she was too tired a couple times. But that doesn't give you a license to go and say, "Well, I'm going to start watching porn and I'll get my niece met that way." So, yes, I feel for her, and it's easy for guys, being a guy to rationalize things in our mind. But if I haven't talked to God about it and I haven't talked to my spouse about it, then, I think, you've got to do those two steps first.

Lindsay: Yes, because it's cut out even the possibility for connection, by just going off in the selfish direction. I also cannot help but think, as a woman, as a wife, if a wife is too tired, there are probably a lot of things she's doing, that maybe, her husband doesn't even know, to keep the house running and doing all these things. Sometimes there's a lot of frustration there that can become a pain point, too, that makes sex look less appealing. 

And, so, I think maybe if he'd had the conversation, there would've been an opportunity. Now, this goes both ways, too, she could always say, "I feel like I'm carrying a lot of burden here." But even if one person does say something like that, because if she had brought that to him, he would, then, have some context to realize, "This is why she's so tired all the time. Maybe, we can work together to alleviate some of the burden and both enjoy our marriage more."

But if he'd brought it up, they could have had the same conversation. So either one of them, having that honest conversation instead of taking things in their own hands would help the marriage and their sex life.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, that's such a good point. Yes, if he would've said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I know you're tired all the time, can I help you? How can I help you?" I mean, that changes everything.

Lindsay: Yes, I feel like that phrase alone is like foreplay for a lot of women. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, because it connects you. It's, all of a sudden, "He sees that I've got a problem, he cares." Right there, there's a connection that's going to lead to better intimacy in the bedroom, just because she feels like you care about her. Besides just her body; you're caring about her, and what's going on, and how can I help you? So that's a great point.

Lindsay: Well, and I think it's really important, too, what you said, that he, basically, was blaming her. I mean, when you get to the heart of it, that puts it pretty cut and dried. You can't justify that.

Dr. Kim: No, not if you hadn't talked to her. Now, if he'd talked to her and she said, "No, we're never going to have sex again for the rest of our life." Well, it's still not right for him to start looking at porn. But, at least, it gave him the information, "Okay, what do we do next?"

"What's our next step?"

Lindsay: Okay, so when porn has affected the marriage, what can the spouse who was using porn do to help rebuild trust?

Dr. Kim: Well, one, you've got to want to do that. Porn is addictive, and there are so many things that we know and probably don't know about it. But we do know it's addictive for a number of people. So you've got to make that decision in your heart, that I really want to change.

Accountability is so important, and that can't be your wife. You've got to find somebody that you are comfortable, or maybe not comfortable talking about, and telling them what you're going through, and that you want to meet with them every week, and you want to have them to call if you get weak. And someone that cares enough about you to ask those tough questions every week. To just get in your face, "Hey, did you look at porn this week?"

Or "How did you handle your sexual desire this week?"

"How is your sex life coming with your wife?"

"How is she handling things now?"

"How are you guys progressing?"

"What do you need to do to help her?" Someone like that.

Also, I think, you want to lock down everything. There are a lot of good tools out there for your phone to lock things down. You can have accountability; there are different apps, different things you can do to help that. Whatever your access point is you need to change that and lock that down.

I think, you're going to need to get help, whether it's counseling. If you feel it's an addiction, Sex Addicts Anonymous group. Prayer involving God, ask Him for His help. Ask Him for your desire to be only for your wife. Ask Him to free you from this thing of porn, just involve God in that.

And, so, as you do those things, and you let Christ in and Christ begins to change your heart, I think, the wife's job, then, is to be open to seeing that change and be willing to trust again. Because she may not trust you but she can trust Christ in you, and I've had so many women say "I saw a difference in him. I saw a heart change that I know God made in him. That was the reason I was able to begin to trust again."

Lindsay: Oh, that's so good. 

Dr. Kim: So there's a process, there's so much that goes into building trust and it's not easy, and it takes work. But, I think, if you're repentant and if you have remorse, there's also that drive to "I got to make this right. I got to do what I can do to make this right, and to show her that she is the person I desire, and want to be with, and love, and that I'm not going to pursue those things anymore."

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, that's really good. I love that you mentioned bringing Christ into it, because I know that in a lot of addictive sin behaviors, there's the temptation to say like, "Well, I can't go to God until I have overcome this."

Or "I can't go to God until I have repented and moved away from this, and had some freedom. But that makes no sense because He is the one who brings you freedom. And, so, there's a really difficult temptation to think that, "Well, He doesn't really know about this, we'll keep it separate." But, of course, He knows so you might as well invite Him in to help you in the process.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, and there's shame associated with porn. I mean, if Brian, one Sunday, said, "Everybody that's struggled with alcohol raise their hand." You'll probably have a bunch of people.

Or "Everyone ever smoked, raise their hand."

"How many of you guys struggle with porn?" There wouldn't be a hand go up, probably, because there's a shame that goes with that. And, so, I think, that plays into it and with what you said, "Okay, well, can I go to God?" Yes, you can. First place He already knows. People in your church don't know, but God does know, and He's just waiting for you to come and say, "Hey, help me." That are all you really need to do, and then just go from there.

Lindsay: That's so good, and that makes me think, too, of one of the upcoming interviews we have in this series that is just so powerful. Because it talks really about not continuing to let things be secret and how powerful it is just to let things be confessed, and the Bible does say there's healing in confession and it's very clear.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Yes, so, you just get that, there's such a burden when you have something that you've not confessed, and it's so heavy. And just to feel, there's just a lightness that comes with letting it out. Now, it doesn't solve all the problems, but it's a huge first step.

Lindsay: Yes, that's huge, and it's really good, too, because you pointed out that the spouse who has been looking at porn has to be the one generating the change. If you're the betrayed spouse, you can't force it, you can't drag them along. But you can look for that changed heart, and that's a very real sign. A very real outward sign. 

Dr. Kim: I do too. I've just heard it from too many people, and 99% of the time it is the wife that I've heard in that situation, from people I've counseled.

Lindsay: Yes, so in this situation we're talking about the two spouses, both know, now, it's been found out, it's discovered. But what about a person who's using porn secretly? What are their steps toward healing?

Dr. Kim: I think, it's almost the same steps. You've got to confess it, and you've to go to God first, because once you open that door with God, then, He will help equip you for the next step of talking to your wife or talking to somebody, be accountable with, or counseling or whatever you do. 

And, so, the first step is just going before God and acknowledging that you have sinned before Him, and that you have whatever else has gone into that. And, then, your next step then is to share with your wife and some people, it's just you want to know that you're together as a couple and you know everything about each other. You just can't have things hidden because you're going on thinking, "Well, what if she did find out? Now, I've been free from it for a couple of years, but what if she found out, what would happen?"

Well, you need to know, and she needs to be able to walk through this with you. Certainly, it's going to be painful for her, too, but you want to confess to her and then you get help. It may be help for the two of you together. It may be help for you, maybe help for y'all, individually.

Accountability; what we talked about, then, the counseling. And one of the things, I think, it's really helpful for guys is groups and there are some great online groups now, where you can meet with other guys that are struggling with the same thing. 

It works just very similar to groups that you would be in person. There's accountability, there's somebody in there that you can contact whenever you feel weak. But you're going through the same things together, and there is healing in that, that comes. That principle, that AA principle, that 12-Step Program, there are things in there that work really well. 

And, so, it gives you a chance to begin to work through this because you know if it's an addiction or not, maybe it's always. But there's a casual thing maybe or you come along something. But the one that I always think about was the guy who did all those horrible things, Ted Bundy. In an interview that James Dobson had with him before he was executed. He told Dobson, he was 12 years old and he found a pornographic magazine and he said he felt something click in his brain that day.

Lindsay: Wow.

Dr. Kim: And, so, it was something, obviously, he never dealt with. He didn't tell anybody about it, and then he did some horrible things, and he was executed for it. Those things can happen, just the way we're wired differently. But those are the steps that I would say we need to do. 

Lindsay: Yes, that's really good, and I love that your first step is go to God, go to your spouse, because if you were to wait till later and think, "Oh, they don't know. They haven't found out, I'll just let them stay free from this until it's in the past." Well, once they find out they're still going to have a trust gap. 

And, so, you might as well bring them on the ground floor, get on the ground floor of this recovery process together. Instead of continuing to drive that trust gap apart by continuing to hide something. Because at Awesome Marriage we've heard so many affair recovery stories. So many stories of recovering after porn use, and usually the spouse knows, even if they don't know, they suspect, they're aware. They probably know more than you think, even if you've never told them, so you might as well just tell them.

Dr. Kim: I agree, and that's an interesting thing you brought up and I don't have any great data for it. But I've had so many women say what you said, "I thought something." And, then, God reveals something, too. All of a sudden, the phone is laying there, it's unlocked, and something pops up. It's just amazing how... Because God wants that out of your marriage more than you do for both of you.

Lindsay: Oh, yes.

Dr. Kim: And, so, God has ways of letting those things come to light and, like you said, you just want to do that. I've had couples where one guy, I think of, was an affair, the other was porn. He did work, he got free of it, told his wife. One found out, I remember he told two years later, it hit him like it was that same day. It's not going to change the way it affects your wife because it's still a breach of trust, it's still hurt. It's going to be great that you're that far in your healing process, which may help, but it's still going to hit her the same way. 

Lindsay: Yes, and that's going to be tough, that's going to be really tough, and it'll feel like going backward.

Dr. Kim: Yes, you may think you're coming home and "She's going to celebrate with me." But what you're doing, you're just dumping all this load of crud on top of her. 

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes.

[00:15:38] < Music >

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[00:16:57] < Music >

Announcer: Wherever you are in your marriage today, learn ways to sustain the love, intimacy, and sex into the second half of your marriage. Dr. Kim's newest book, Love, Intimacy, and Sex in the Second Half is coming out this summer, and it's available for pre-order right now. This book takes a close-up look at him and Nancy's marriage from the beginning to now, and it's actually a co-write with Nancy. It's so fun to hear from both of them in this book, as they share ways that they have sustained the fun, the flirting, and kept the spark alive into the second half of their marriage. 

The book is available for pre-order right now. You can find the link to pre-order this book in today's show notes. 

[00:17:48] < Music >

Lindsay: So, well, let's talk about boundaries. You've shared some like shutting down the access point, but what are some reasonable boundaries between the spouses? What can they do between them to help rebuild that trust?

Dr. Kim: Well, definitely you want transparency, and that means sharing passwords, all that stuff. Nancy can get on anything I have any time that she wants. And if she forgets the password, she can call any of my grandkids because they all have them also, so that's one thing.

Lindsay: That's amazing.

Dr. Kim: Everybody in my family has my password. So there is some built in accountability there that I didn't realize I was putting when I made that happen. 

Lindsay: That's funny. 

Lindsay: But accountability software, I think, that's a good boundary to have. Regular checking in with each other; "How are we doing?"

"How is our sex life, how are we?" Just that communication, and continuing to build an emotional connection, continuing to build your relationship, all of those things are going to help. But, really, just with the transparency, the openness, not hiding anything, knowing the boundary that you need, you choose, you're going to be going to meet with your accountability partner. There's the boundary, if you are going to this group. You are doing these things that allow your spouse to begin to trust you again, to build that trust. 

And, so, those boundaries and expectations are essential, if you're going to rebuild this. It's not something you can just sweep under the rug or if you do, it's going to come out twice as big, later. And, I think, for you to take personal responsibility, which doesn't seem to come easy in this world. And like the letter you read at the beginning; he was blaming her. He wasn't taking personal responsibility; he was blaming his wife. So that's so important for that to be a part of it, too.

Lindsay: Yes, that's really good. So going forward, to rebuild the trust, would you suggest that the spouse who was using porn, do they need to confess to their spouse if it happens again? Do they need those details? Is that helpful or is that more harmful?

Dr. Kim: That's a really good question. My gut always has been to get it out there in the light and, usually, if I'm counseling a couple, we'll say that will be part of it. Because I want them to know that a slip up does not mean they're all the way back to ground zero. That may be part of the process they're going through, and it allows a spouse to pray for them, to know how to pray for them, those things. 

And, so, I am a big believer of being totally open about everything. And, so, if you slip, you tell your spouse about it, "I slipped." She doesn't have to know all the details, but "I slipped, I've told my accountability partner. I'm going to talk to my group about it tomorrow. We'll go to counseling, let's talk about it. But I want you to know, right after God I want you to know what happened."

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, what if they freak out?

Dr. Kim: Then you just love them. You say, "I understand. I know you may feel like I just totally betrayed you all over again. That's not my heart, but that's what I did and I'm sorry, and I'm not giving up on this fight."

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, that's good and it's really important, too, what you shared that one slip does not mean going back to the beginning, that's really helpful.

Dr. Kim: It is, and, I think, for the spouse to understand that, too, that sometimes, and I talk to couples about that when I'm working with this situation, it is a process. And it's not to give the guy a license or an excuse, but it's the reality. Your goal is to be porn free the rest of your life. But if something happens and you do slip up, we'll pick it up there and we'll continue to move forward. 

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's really good. And the reason I ask is because something you shared during the boundary series. Which was when we're setting boundaries, if they're stepped on don't overreact, don't go crazy, because it's just a new habit you have to work towards together. And, so, I think it's really helpful that we give each other a lot of grace in these things. When you're working towards a change, you've got to work together by understanding that we're still human even if we're making a change.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and it goes back to what we talk about, all the time, is being a team. And I get it, the spouse has to get through the grief and the hurt because it is a grief process. This is not something when you took your vows, you expected so many years later in marriage, you are going to deal with. So you've got to do that. 

But, then, again, if we're going to restore this marriage and my spouse wants to restore this marriage, my spouse wants to get healed, then, you become that team again. Then you support each other, encourage each other. Put together all the other things we've talked about. But you're looking at we are working on this together. Not because it's your problem, too, well it kind of is, both what you want long-term for your marriage.

Lindsay: Yes, that's good. It always comes back to that, doesn't it, teamwork?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I mean that's, I think, part of God's plan.

Lindsay: Yes, I think so. And it's also lifting each other up in weakness, not beating each other up for weakness, but helping.

Dr. Kim: Right. Well, anytime we marry someone thinking they're going to be perfect, you're just setting yourself up because none of us are. 

Lindsay: Yes, there's not an option that involves a perfect person.

Dr. Kim: No, not that I've found.

Lindsay: No. So with those boundaries, to help rebuild trust, can the boundaries go too far?

Dr. Kim: Yes, anytime if there's punishment as part of the boundary, whether it's "We're never going to have sex again." I think it can go too far, if it's punishment "We're not going to have sex again." Or that, in some way, you're figuring out a way to punish them. Well, "You got to do all the work around here." Whatever that is. 

Sometimes obsessive monitoring, so you put things in place. And, so, you're in front of your computer every day checking everything that he is doing, and I've had people do that. That will drive you crazy over time, and that's not helping free you. What it is it's keeping you in that because you're obsessed with this, and so that is unhealthy.

The other thing, too, boundaries is not willing to begin the trust-building process. And it is different for each person because we're all unique. But at some point, as a spouse, you've got to say, "Okay, I am willing to begin to trust again. And, so, if you put boundaries in place that keep you from getting there, to protect yourself. At some point, if you're going to have what you want in your marriage, you're going to have to take that step.

Lindsay: Yes, that's a great point to bring around. If your boundaries or your expectations are that, "I can't trust you until this is completely and totally resolved." Then that might just be impossible.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.

Lindsay: Because I'm thinking if you resolve one issue, you can't control your spouse, you just can't do it. So there's always going to be something. 

Dr. Kim: No, and if you don't go through this, and work through it, and forgive it, then, anything else that your spouse does, you can link to that. And maybe it's, certainly, in your mind minor to pornography, but maybe he overspends the budget one month, "Well, now I can't trust you with money and I, certainly, can't trust, trust you because of porn." 

And, so, you start linking everything together because he's going to continue to make mistakes, just like the wife will. And then you've got this stack of reasons why you're not trusting this person, and to live in a marriage where there isn't trust. Sure, we have to do that sometimes short term, but that's hard to do long term.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes. 

Dr. Kim: That's not what you want me to be married for. 

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, well, and a lot of that, too, points back to the mental reframing that we talk about a lot. 

Which is when you're looking for somebody to let you down all the time, you're probably going to see that more often. Whereas if you're looking for evidence of growth, you'll see that more often. 

And, so, it's almost this victim mindset, of "I can't trust you because..." But you've just built this case in your own head. And, of course, we have to see the evidence of the spouse working, and wanting to be on board, and going to Christ, and having a changed heart. 

But if we have this terrible mental image that only sees the negative, there's nothing they can really do to overcome that and that's not at the heart of marriage. Because at the heart of marriage, you both are freely giving your life to one another. And that's not dependent on how they behave, it is what the marriage commitment is.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so true. You made me think of something else and it's that, at some point, if some of these things, you were just talking about, are there for a woman that she needs to look into herself. Is this something that your dad did to your mom? 

Is this something that happened to your best friend? 

Is there something deeper, for you, in that? Because it's so easy to point at the one who looked at porn, and having them jump through the hoops, what they need to do. But is there something that's going to free you by dealing with, too. Is there something that this triggered in you from the past, or previous relationship, or something that maybe you didn't know need to be healed, or you thought was healed. 

And, so, it's important, for you, to do that, too. Because the healthiest marriage is two healthy people, and if your spouse gets healthy, you want to be as healthy as you can to meet them there, too.

Lindsay: Oh, yes, that's so true, and a lot of it might even be as simple as expectations. Just that you have this expectation of how your marriage should be, and maybe it's a great expectation, but it's just not realistic. And, so, it might not be a huge trauma, it could be something very obvious, but it also could just be that "I didn't think my marriage would be this way." And, so, it's really hard to accept.

Dr. Kim: No, most people, when they stand and take their vows, don't think their spouse is going to look at porn. Or the guy that's taking the vows doesn't think, "I'll probably be tired of her in a couple of years, so I'll look at porn." I mean, no, you don't do that. This is the person you've chosen, and you've committed, and made a covenant, before God, for the rest of your life with. So, sure, and that's why it's a grief issue. Life didn't go the way you thought it was going to go.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, so that's really good advice, and that could go for any spouse. Because, obviously, if you're the one using porn, too, there is some stuff under there. 

There's some deeper unmasked stuff that needs to be dealt with because it's not like you're just going to get free of porn, and then you're done. 

And, again, this is reminding me of another conversation that our listeners will be hearing in a couple of weeks. It's so good, about just there's stuff under there and you can't just say, "That was my struggle and now I'm done." There's more growth and more freedom. 

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Lindsay: So that goes both ways. It's for every one of us who's trying to grow and be like Jesus. 

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Lindsay: Which I think is good, it's very human that we're all imperfect and on the process.

Dr. Kim: Right, we wouldn't need each other, I guess, or anything if we're perfect and we are not.

Lindsay: So we do hear from a lot of spouses who will say, "Okay, yes, my spouse is following the boundaries as we set them, but I still don't trust them." What is your advice to that person?

Dr. Kim: I think there the spouse has to look at themselves; "Why am I not trusting? Is it because I don't see that heart change?"

"Am I seeing all this outward behavior, but something just doesn't seem right? I just don't feel like there's really a heart change. I really don't see Jesus in him?"

Or is it because she's afraid to let her heart or let her guard down, and get hurt again? And that's a real thing that she'll have to deal with. So you've got to look at why don't you trust him and maybe you need to talk to your counselor about that, and then see where that goes from there. But if your spouse, if you really see Christ in him, you really see him doing all the things that he's doing, then why don't you trust him?

Why aren't you willing to take that first step to trust him? 

And, so, if it's something else you need to figure that out. And, I guess, I'll say this, we are talking, mainly, because most of us hear the stories we hear are of men using porn. But we also know that there are a rising number of women that use porn. It's different; it's usually written, it's usually these books, or these movies, or things like that. But that is a rising problem, apparently, too, and I see it not as much. I haven't seen as much in counseling, not nearly the proportion that I've seen in men. 

And, so, that temptation is there for women and it's something that women have to deal with, too. And I'm not really sure, I haven't stayed enough on it, because I've had to deal with it really of what is all the differences for a woman. But if you're a woman dealing with that, that you want to find a counselor that understands that, that can help you get to the bottom of why that's an issue for you.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. I mean, there's no temptation that's not common. Every temptation is something that someone else has dealt with. So, I think, that really the enemy can use our feeling of isolation against us a lot. He separates the weak and the wounded from the pack, so you just can go die alone when he preys on us. But if you know that, you don't hear a lot about it, but it does exist. There are resources out there, it does happen. You're not the only person who's ever dealt with this. So you have to resist that mindset because that's just straight-up temptation.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it is, and temptation isn't sin.

Lindsay: Right.

Dr. Kim: And we got to realize that Jesus was tempted. Really, the things, when you think about, that satan tempted Jesus with, was one of them was about power, and one was about money, "These kingdoms will all be yours." And I can't remember what the third one was, but those are the same things that he tempts us with today.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, and there's always a way out; we know that from Scripture, too.

Dr. Kim: Always a way out, yes.

Lindsay: So I am curious, Dr. Kim, you alluded to this, but what if they have gone through the boundaries and stuff, but there hasn't been a heart change. What do you do then?

Dr. Kim: That's hard. I think it really is hard, it's just like, to me, porn is infidelity and what I would do if I was counseling someone, and say the person that had an affair and the wife wasn't seeing, and I see women that have affairs, too, but I'm going to take it from a male perspective, she doesn't really see that heart change. She doesn't really see those things and she finds out he's seeing this person again or that again. 

The same way, if he continues going back to porn and their heart change is not there, then, I think, the next step is probably a hard boundary, like a separation till things get better. Because I don't think you can live with that. You can't live with that betrayal day after day. 

I'm not saying getting a divorce, but you may need to draw the line, "If we're going to be in a marriage, together, you've got to get help, and you've got to get healed, and until you do, we're going to live in separate places." It's hard, it's tough love, but, at that point, other than a miracle, which God can do, I don't see another alternative that's going to be effective. Because you will have done all the things that we've just been talking about. 

Lindsay: Yes, and it is that thing of like any addiction that you have, that you value over the relationship or the family, it's going to end up destroying all those things.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, it's exactly the same league with an alcoholic continues to drink and drains the family money or behavior and things like that, same thing. At some point, you have to say, "Okay, you're going to have to move out until you get help and get well."

Lindsay: Yes, that's really hard. I mean, I really feel for the person in that situation. But I do think that's a good word of advice is that hard boundary, and not just continuing to hope and hope they'll change when they're showing no evidence of change.

Dr. Kim: And, I think, too, you'll find that there are a lot more resources for it than you think when you take that step because I know that's scary. Especially maybe someone's a stay-at-home mom, but there are people in most big cities or access, or maybe churches where you live that will come alongside you and help you through that time. So trust that if God leads you to that point, then He's also going to provide and help you through that, too.

Lindsay: Oh, that's good.

Dr. Kim: I believe that, I've just seen it over and over

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, that's really good. That's a good encouragement, I feel like we really needed it. So Dr. Kim, this has been a really helpful, tough, conversation about rebuilding trust after porn. What final piece of advice do you have on this topic, today?

Dr. Kim: Well, I think that the things we talked about are important to do. You've got to realize it does take time on both sides, give yourself the grace of that. It's not "Okay, you should be better in six months."

People will come to me with an infidelity thing like that. "Well, how long is it going to take?" Well, I don't know. God knows, but I don't know. But just know that it's going to take time. It's going to take consistency. It's going to take intentionality; it's going to take accountability. All those things have to be built in that, and then that willingness to trust again. Which, sometimes, I don't think a wife realizes how big a deal that is just to say "I'm willing to trust you again."

You don't have to do that right in the beginning. You're just watching what he is doing, but at some point, you've got to say, "Okay, I'm going to open my heart again. I'm going to risk getting hurt again." And that is probably the biggest step for a wife in those situations.

Lindsay: Hmm, yes.

Dr. Kim: And that's where the husband... say, I was the one who got into porn; and I'm doing all the right things, and God is changing me, and I've been repenting. 

And Nancy is just, "I don't want to get hurt again. I'm just not ready yet." That's where you've got to give her time. You've got to give her the time to work to that point, and the temptation will be, "Well, I'll just go back to porn, then, if nothing is going to change." Well, no, what God wants you to do is continue doing the things you're doing. Trust Him with her and her heart. She has a Holy Spirit, it's not you and He's working on her, too, and trust that.

Lindsay: Well, because going back, we'll just be blaming them again, and back to that cycle.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Lindsay: Goodness. Man, I feel like we could do a whole episode on blaming and being a victim, that's a big thing. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, you're right because there's so much depth that can go into this with different couples, different situations. But the reality is that's not God's best plan for marriage. Porn is something the enemy has used and apparently forever because they've drawings in caves, of pornography, on the wall. That sin, our vulnerability, there has been there forever, since the fall. 

And, so, it's choosing to say what God's best is. God's best is sex in marriage. God's best is continuing to work on that together, and not bringing anything from the outside into that because it's not His plan and it doesn't work, it just doesn't work.

Lindsay: It doesn't work. Well, next week we're going to continue this conversation on rebuilding after porn by talking about restarting your sexual intimacy after porn has affected your marriage. So make sure you tune in and listen to that episode next week. Have a great day, and do something awesome for your marriage today. 

[00:38:04] < Outro >

Announcer: Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by The Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.