How to Rebuild Intimacy With Your Spouse After Porn | Ep. 563

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship. 

Last week, on the podcast, we talked about how to regain trust after your marriage has been affected by porn, and this week we're talking about how to rebuild intimacy in that situation. If you're in this situation, you already know how painful it is. So how do you start to build intimacy back, after learning that your spouse has been watching porn? 

We know that this situation is really painful. And, so, we do want to bring this message that God has hope, and healing, and restoration for your marriage to as many couples as possible. And you can actually help us do that just by leaving a rating and review of the podcast. 

You can leave one wherever you're listening today, it only takes a few minutes, maybe a minute. But it actually does make a real impact on the visibility of the podcast, and it helps new listeners to find the show and hear the biblical marriage advice we're sharing. So would you take a minute to do that? It would mean so much to us. 

So, Dr. Kim, as we're getting into this topic. When a marriage has been harmed by porn use, how does that affect the intimacy?

Dr. Kim: Well, big time. The guys that I've talked to don't realize the depth of the hurt that their wives can feel when they use porn. They're thinking, "Well, it's not another person, blah, blah, blah." But there is something there that affects a woman just like an affair does, I think. Because a woman says, "Why is he looking at that when he has me?"

And in the affair, "Why did he go there when he has me?"

It's the same things, for a woman to begin to think about that. I think, for a wife, it's really important for her to realize that it is really not about her, that God made her perfect. God made her fully able to satisfy her husband, being in a relationship with him physically. It's his sin and whatever that is, or wherever the roots of it are.

And, so, it affects the intimacy. I think, the more a husband is repentant and remorseful, certainly, that's a big part of the healing. Her willing to work on regaining intimacy. But it definitely is going to affect it, and it's something that you're going to have to work through and then work on. 

The encouraging thing that I've seen in some couples who have gone through this, has told me that their sex life is better than it's ever been, and that their marriage is better than it's ever been. Because they totally redefined it, and maybe it was never really defined like God defines it, to start with. And when you really start looking at it as that gift God gave us, and it is part of that covenant that we make with each other, and how we give ourselves not only physically but emotionally and spiritually, there's a spiritual component to it, that that really can be better than ever. 

Now, that's not the formula that I want people to take to have porn in marriage. But the hope is there of what God can do when things like that happen in a marriage. And that God can always make something, He can amaze us with what He can do with something.

Lindsay: Oh, certainly, yes, and we've aired other episodes with Affair Recovery, where they've said the same thing. They've said that afterwards, it was far better than it ever was before, which is amazing.

Dr. Kim: It is, and it just shows us where the hope is.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, that's so good. So how long does it usually take to rebuild intimacy?

Dr. Kim: I think for guys to realize it's going to take time because, to your wife, it is infidelity. It's a deep hurt. So knowing that it's going to take time, it's going to take patience. It's not something you can rush or put in a timeline. People, sometimes, will ask me when they come in, "Well, how long is this going to take?" I don't know. I really don't know; but I know if you're seeking God, I know it will happen. I just don't know what the timing is. Because there could be past baggage, there could be all kinds of things that this brought up, that need to be healed. 

And, so, healing from any kind of infidelity is a gradual process. Counseling helps a lot in this because you've got someone that has experience to move you forward. Help you if you get stuck, give you tools that you need along the way. Because, really, in working with people where this has been an issue, I mean, yes, overall, it's the same thing that we do in counseling. 

But there's also those individual things that that person needs and people can get stuck at different places, and, sometimes, if you've got a counselor, they will help you get unstuck. They can help you get unstuck. Well, sometimes, I've seen people that have come to me maybe four or five years later. They got stuck four or five years ago and they're still stuck because they didn't have anybody just help guide them through that. So that's really important. 

Are there any underlying issues, in the marriage, that contribute to this that have to be dealt with? And just realizing that as God rebuilds that, He does want to rebuild that where there's that connection on all those areas. Not just the physical, but the emotional, the mental, and the spiritual, all have to be a part of that. So it's a long answer to say, it takes time, it takes effort, it takes intentionality, and there's always hope.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, and there's the other side of the coin, when we just said that your marriage afterwards could be better than before. That's assuming you've dealt with all the junk that was preceding the porn use, preceding the affair, preceding whatever crisis. And, so, on the other side, that does mean it's going to take a little longer because it's not just stopping and rebuilding trust, it's also dealing with whatever sent you there in the first place.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and sometimes we don't even realize what that is and what was there, or maybe we think that we had dealt with it, or maybe we discount something, "Well, that happened when I was 12. How could that be affecting me now?" Well, it can. 

And, so, it gives you a chance, really, an opportunity, and that's one thing that I always pray with people, and ask them to pray is, "Since we're working on this stuff, ask God to surface anything else that He wants dealt with now. And ask Him to heal anything that He just wants to heal and wants us to stay away from." And God honors that prayer.

Lindsay: That's good, yes.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it really helps.

Lindsay: So when we're talking about rebuilding intimacy, are we talking about in general, overall, emotional, spiritual, or sexual, or both?

Dr. Kim: Yes, it's the whole thing, it is all of it. When Nancy and I got married, at 20 years old, thinking that sex would solve any problem, I put a lot on the sexual relationship. But if you see a couple all they have is sex, then, that's not enough. I think, there's a point, in our life, when we're younger maybe, and hormones are crazy and we think, "Well, sex is all we need forever. Well, anything, we'll just go have sex and everything will be okay."

But God has so much more for us than that, and He wants our sex life to be good. But He also knows that what happens in the other 23 and a half hours, in the day. How you treat each other. How you connect, how you're connected emotionally. How you get on the same, you learn about each other. How you grow together, spiritually, that all of those come together to make the sex life that much better because you're connected in all these other areas. And, so, it's like the icing on the cake, you just can't have it be the cake.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, no, it's not, it doesn't really work to have icing as the cake.

Dr. Kim: No.

Lindsay: Yes, and I think it's hard, too, for Christian couples who have pursued purity before marriage because it does put it on this pedestal by default or by accident. I've seen it happen a lot where it's like, "Oh, once we can do that, everything will change." 

But it's just a part of it. It's a part of the whole relationship, it's not separate. Which is great, and that's how God designed it, but it's also a little more complicated than movies would lead you to believe.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I don't think there's anything that gives us more desire than that time, if we've chosen to be pure before we're married, that time of waiting. For a guy, there's not a whole lot else that comes into your mind except getting past the wedding, getting past the I dos. "Do we have to go to the reception?" Things like that, and that's just part of it, depending on how we are, the circumstances we're in, and God understands all that, He wired us that way. But He doesn't want us to get stuck there, He wants us to know that there's more.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, you're right. I have heard that perspective, too, that "Just make it to the wedding night." And it's really hard to not put it on a pedestal when our culture is saturated with sex. But, then, the church is pretty silent a lot of the time, so it's a wide disconnect there.

Dr. Kim: Yes, in our premarital counseling, they never talked to us about sex at all. I think it was the night before we got married that Nancy's mom asked her if she had any questions about sex-

Lindsay: And that was it?

Dr. Kim: ...they kind of talked about it before, but maybe that was just like "Is there anything else we haven't talked about?" And, I think, too, what happens in that, sometimes, you put too much expectations on the wedding night. And you've got to just be realistic that the sex life in your marriage is something that will continue to get better, if you work on it together and grow that together. 

And, so, some people, I see, they come back from the honeymoon and, "It was the best thing in the world, the sex relationship was great." And others have just come back and said, "I got sick. I threw up on our wedding night." And, so, just realize that you have a lifetime to continue to work on that and cultivate it. Don't put all that pressure just on the honeymoon or the wedding night.

Lindsay: Yes, that's good. So we did get a little bit off topic there for a second, talking about how sex is just a part of the whole relationship. But I think that that's still really on topic in that the process of recovering from porn. A lot of times, there's a lot of unmet expectations, or a lot of disappointment, or whatever it is that's created the situation, in the first place. There's something that got this problem started in the first place. Something that's not dealt with, something that has not been handled between the two or between one spouse and the Lord. 

And, so, everything is holistic, you can't separate anything. So if you have a porn addiction or if you're casually looking at porn, you can't separate that. That's going on in your heart, and your mind, and in your body, and it's in your marriage, too. So it's really important, as random as that seemed, to tie that all in because it's just a part of the entire marriage.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, you're right, and it's like you're saying, that it's getting balance. One of the chapters in my Seven Secrets book is about balance, and learning to just have balance in all those areas. Certainly, you put God at the top but then the other areas of all these other things of marriage just balance in that. 

If it's too heavy sex, you need the other things. You need the communication; you need the connection. You need to have fun together, all those things we talk about all the time, and all of those do affect the sex life. If you're knocking out of the park in all those ways, you're going to have a home run in sex, too.

Lindsay: Yes, none of them are separate. Yes, that's a great point. 

[00:12:07] < Music >

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*****

Wherever you are in your marriage today, learn ways to sustain the love, intimacy, and sex into the second half of your marriage. Dr. Kim's newest book, Love, Intimacy, and Sex in the Second Half, is coming out this summer and it's available for preorder right now. This book takes a close-up look at him and Nancy's marriage from the beginning to now, and it's actually a co-write with Nancy. 

It's so fun to hear from both of them in this book, as they share ways that they have sustained the fun, the flirting, and kept the spark alive into the second half of their marriage. The book's available for preorder right now. You can find the link to preorder this book in today's show notes. 

[00:13:53] < Music >

Lindsay: What should the spouse that is the victim in this scenario do? The betrayed spouse; what are some steps to help them heal? And I will preface this by saying we are just, generally, referring to this as the wife because in counseling, Dr. Kim, that's what you've seen, primarily. Of course, it could go either way, women can use porn, too, and do. But most typically you have dealt with it being the husband.

Dr. Kim: And I must say this and somebody may disagree with me on that. My experience has been a couple of times where the wife has been, it does not affect a husband the same way it does a wife. They don't seem to personalize it in the same way that women do. And, so, as we deal, maybe, with more women in this in counselling, obviously, we're all going to learn more. 

But just from the husbands I've talked to that, maybe, the wives are into mommy porn or whatever that kind of stuff is, it didn't break their heart like I see it break a woman's heart. They didn't feel the betrayal in that. They know it's not healthy for their wife. They don't want their wife to put unrealistic expectations on them because of what some guy did in the book that they read. But it doesn't seem to hurt their heart.

It's like, "No, I know this isn't good for our marriage, and I want to help her walk away from that, and see that what we can develop is better and she doesn't need that." But it doesn't seem to hit their heart. Does that make sense at all?

Lindsay: Yes, it does, that's really interesting.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I just thought of that. I really haven't thought about it until we've been talking about this today. So the steps for a wife, in this situation, you've got to immerse yourself in prayer, at the beginning. Because you're going to need to forgive this guy, and that doesn't mean that you have to do it today. But I think you've got to tell God, "I'm willing to forgive; I know that's what you want me to do. I don't have a clue how to get there, you're going to have to help me." 

So, to me, that forgiveness is going to be a huge part of that. And it's going to be a huge part of your spouse's healing, too, to know that at some point you are forgiving him. Because I think that if forgiveness is not there, that just puts a wedge in a marriage that it's always there. You're always bumping into it. 

And, so, two counseling, probably, is going to be really helpful, whether they do it together. But, sometimes, in most situations, I've worked with the wife on her own a few times, too, just as she works up things that just for her. And the other thing is just don't blame yourself, you just can't blame yourself for this. Your husband made a choice out of marriage.

Sure, you weren't perfect. Maybe you did some things that you want to change. Maybe you didn't really ask God's help in having the sex life, in marriage, that God wants you to have. But that was when your husband should have come to you and said, "I think there's something missing here, can we go to counseling?"

"Can we talk about this?"

"Can we talk to a mental couple?" Something like that. 

And, so, don't blame yourself. The reason he went out is not because of you, it's because of sin.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's a great point and it's really difficult, in marriage, not to personalize. I guess I only know the woman's perspective, but it's hard not to even with our assumptions, like if your spouse comes out home and they're cranky. It's like, "Well, what did I do to you?" Well, it's not about anything, probably, that you did, they're probably just in that headspace. But it's so easy to personalize these things and to make it about ourselves when it's really a sin issue that they're dealing with.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and women just can be hard on themselves in so many ways. And, so, sometimes, that goes into it. "Do I not look good enough?"

"There's this weight that I just didn't lose after the last child, does that affect you?" So they begin to question themselves. Sure, you may decide you want to do some things to make yourself healthier, that's fine. But not because the image you put that are in front of you are usually not realistic anyway. So you're just setting yourself up for failure. Plus, you love each other for who they are. We all change outward, but there's that inward that we continue to see grow and be more beautiful year after year.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's so good. It is tough because, I think, any woman who's comparing is, probably, comparing herself to something, like you said, very unrealistic. And we don't have an airbrush in our own personal bathroom to touch up all the things, we see the real thing, and there's no image out there. Everything out there has been filtered, or doctored, or who knows any number of things. And, so, it's not a realistic comparison, we have to just get out of that game.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and our culture doesn't help women in that, I know, at all, in a lot of ways. And your standard is who God created you to be, and God made you perfect for the person that you're married to. And, so, the comparison game that we can all get into, especially, in the world we live in, it never helps us.

Lindsay: No.

Dr. Kim: It's different comparing than setting goals.

Lindsay: Yes.

Dr. Kim: And, so, you've got to be able to separate those out. If I want to be healthier, in a way, and I think if I lose five pounds that's going to help me be healthier because my doctor and I talked about it. Then, that's not culture driving you, it's you saying, "I want to be the best that I can be and I want to steward my body the way God wants me to." 

But when it gets to be comparing yourself, like you were saying. Yes, the first time I realized, I was watching some documentary years ago and they had some supermodel, and she was a beautiful woman. But then they showed what they did with her picture, and how they trimmed her and all this. And I thought, "Oh, my gosh, no, nobody can ever live up to that." This woman that people would say is just almost perfect, in the world's eyes, got airbrushed.

Lindsay: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So I don't know what she did when she went out in public because you can't carry an airbrush with you.

Lindsay: Maybe you can, I don't know. I think the one important thing, too, to point out about comparison and porn is that they are both objectifying people, which is anti-Christian. I mean, Jesus creates us all as individuals, as humans, in His image. And, so, when we have a person that we're using as a comparison, we've objectified them. Just like porn has objectified them and that's a sinful approach for any person to view them as an object.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Lindsay: So after taking some of those steps to healing, what should a spouse do if they're still worried that their spouse is using porn?

Dr. Kim: I think, again, like we talked about a lot in the last episode, you've got to look at their heart. Is God really changing them? Most people when they're confronted with it, deny it, at least, at first, even if you've been caught, and you're supposed to be working on it, deny it again. As opposed to when you really see a heart change, we talked about last time, I think it's when maybe the husband does slip and so he confesses that again to his wife. Well, that's part of a process, but it's different if he's acting like he hasn't and then he does. 

I think you want to continue to have a lot of conversations through this. It's a conversation of, "I know you put all these things in place, but I just still have a feeling that you are." And then your spouse, I think, the right answer for him is, "What else can I do?" If he gets mad or whatever, then, but I think you're looking for him to say, "I want you to be safe in this. I don't want you to spend time worrying that I'm into porn. What can I do to help you?"

And, so, being honest with each other through this whole process is so important. I think, we've talked around this, but, sometimes, we just, "Okay, the problem is porn; and so we're going to lock down so he can't get the porn and all that stuff."

But is there something else behind it? 

Are there other problems that cause that desire for porn? Is that a place that he went early in his life, maybe teen years, as a stress relief or whatever it was? And, so, those things have to be dealt with, too. And, so, if you're not dealing with that, then, it may be time to say, "Hey, why don't we go to a counselor? Why don't we get a counselor involved in this?" 

Or "You've talked to those people about that group online, would you go ahead and go into that, and just try it for a month and see what happens." Things like that. Because, I think, most of the problems with porn are going to pre-date the marriage, in most instances. I don't know if I've worked with anybody that told me, "Okay, we were five years into marriage and I looked at porn for the first time." I don't think that ever happened, especially, in the cultural end today. 

So it's just that communication, working together as a team, talking to each other about it. And, at some point, if her husband really is doing all of those things and you really are seeing God change him, at some point, you’ve got to accept that. And then I would ask myself, if I was that woman, "Why am I still worrying? He's doing so much more than I thought he would. I'm seeing changes in him, not only with me but with our kids."

Or "When we're out, I don't see his head spinning around when a cute waitress walks by."

Things that you're observing that he is really changing in him. And, so, at some point, you're going to have to say, "Yes, God really is working in Him and I'm not going to worry about it anymore. I'm going to leave him in God's hands."

Lindsay: That's so good. And I like the way that you suggested to bring up the conversation, too, if you do need to because it takes us back to our team approach that we talk about. Where it's not with blame or it's not with monitoring it's just with having a good conversation. 

Dr. Kim: Yes, because if you're really seeing him do all the right things, then you got to own your worry. You got to come to him and say, "I'm still struggling with this. Can we talk about how to help me get past this? Because I want to trust you again; I don't want to worry about you." If you're on the right track, it's a waste of your time and energy, it really is.

Lindsay: Yes, and it's not going to get you-

Dr. Kim: And the enemy gets hold of that and says, "Oh, I'm going to keep you. How do you know he's not?"

"Well, because I see him in his quiet time every day, and I see his heart, and I see how he's treating other people. I see how he's acting around other women that I didn't see that before." Yes, stand on that truth.

Lindsay: Mh-hmm, and the worry will not get the closeness and intimacy in your marriage either.

Dr. Kim: No, that will keep your wall up, for sure.

Lindsay: Yes, so, going off of that thought life. Do you have any tips for dealing with intrusive thoughts or the worry that a spouse is thinking of other images or of porn during sex?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I don't know how to just tell someone not to think that. I think it's another thing you talk about and the husband needs to say, "I put these images in my mind that I wish I hadn't. Sometimes they flash back but I promise you, if they flash back, I am not dwelling on them, I'm focusing on you. I'm focusing on what we're rebuilding."

And, so, have that conversation ahead of time because you don't want a wife, as you're trying to rebuild your sex life, thinking the whole time that you're thinking about some image that you saw and to just be able to say, "They don't belong in our marriage, I don't want them to be there. I know the enemy is going to still tempt me with that because I've just opened a door that I should have never opened. But remember, temptation is not sin, and when those images come, I'm dismissing them." 

And what I've seen, the more you dismiss them the less they come back. They're just like, "Okay, that didn't work." You don't give them credibility like you did in the past, and as you're rebuilding intimacy with your spouse, in the sexual relationship, and you focus on that, I think, it helps those images get farther and farther away. Because you realize that was such a cheap invitation of sex, and "What I have here with this woman, God gave me in marriage, is so much better. So much better. It doesn't even compare to that junk that I was looking at.

Lindsay: Yes, it's a totally different thing, for sure.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Lindsay: That's good, and I think that what you said about dismissing the images would probably be for both spouses in that situation. Do you think so?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think so. If it was me, I wouldn't want Nancy thinking about what, or even like for a woman that's read some mummy porn or something. Well, you don't want this, whoever in the book, to start thinking that's my husband or I wish that was my husband, or I wish that this guy... that's not healthy either. Because the guy in the book; one, he's fiction, and two, he's not the person that God gave you for marriage. Embrace the one that you're with right that time, whose eyes you're looking into.

Lindsay: Yes, fictional characters are never going to be a good model for real people.

Dr. Kim: No, it just doesn't work.

Lindsay: And all those things porn, and fiction, and everything, they lie to us. They say, "Here's what your spouse should be doing, or what they want, or how sex should go." And that is not a good model for sex in your marriage.

Dr. Kim: No, it's just one of those things that you just wish sin was painful at the beginning, and if it was, it wouldn't attract us. But the pain comes after the sin. And, so, we got to remember that, too. If you're into porn, I don't know that there's not always shame involved in that or something that just inside of you says, "This is not right, there is more from this. I have a wife lying next to me." You got to deal with all those things.

Lindsay: Yes, you used a term, I actually don't know what mommy porn is. Is that books?

Dr. Kim: Yes, I think that's what... What was the big thing that came up? Fifty Shades of Gray and that whole series that came out? That's the first time I really heard that word. Somebody coined it, and I don't remember who did, but I can remember it was such a big thing at the time. I mean, women that I thought, "I didn't think you'd read that." But they, probably, don't think I'd do something I do, too, so I wasn't judging anybody. But it was a thing for a while, maybe still is somewhat, so I think that's part of it. 

I don't see/hear many women talking a whole lot about images. I know that that is part for some women of watching porn like guys do. But I haven't worked with anybody there and, so, I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about that. I had more knowledge about just this because the mommy porn puts you in a fantasy world, and then you try to apply that and lay that template over your marriage, and that's just not going to work.

Lindsay: Yes.

Dr. Kim: Fantasy has got to be living this out with the person that God gave me the rest of my life, and that's reality.

Lindsay: Yes, and it's not the same, it's not going to be in parallel. But that's why that stuff can be so enticing both the books and actual porn, it's just selfish. You get what you want out of it and you don't have to worry about what the other person wants. 

So for anybody on either of those temptations, it's like that's why it's so tempting because it's easy. I think it could take a lot of forms, but any of that it's back to comparison to and it's back to, again, the holistic sex, you can't separate it out. You're just not going to be living in fantasy. In marriage, one of the things that's so hard about it is it's really normal real life.

Dr. Kim: It is, and we've talked a lot about different seasons and obviously most couples sex life suffers some when they have kids, especially babies and stuff like that. But when you look at it, "Okay, this is a gift from God and how do we address our sex life during this season?" 

And you're talking about it, and you make it work for that season, and then you think, "Oh, my gosh, we don't have anybody that wakes up in the middle of night anymore. So, hey, we can have sex more often." 

You just go through those and you're talking about it together. And that becomes fun to figure it out, "Okay, when are times? What can we do? Do we need to be more spontaneous during that time?" And when you're talking about it really becomes fun, and you're continuing to embrace that with each other instead of thinking about going outside your marriage.

Lindsay: Yes, it always has to be a two-person conversation.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Lindsay: So what are some practical ways we can protect our marriage from porn, in the first place?

Dr. Kim: I think one of the big things is knowing that we're vulnerable. And whenever someone tells me, "Well, I would never look at that." I think you're so vulnerable because that's where the enemy, he just sees an opening, "Aha, they don't think they're vulnerable; let me throw this in front of them." And it's just part of staying on guard, especially, in the culture that we live in because something's going to pop up. You're going to see a billboard or something you'll walk by, everybody's enticed in different ways.

But you've got to realize that those things may come before your view. You may be swimming with your family and somebody walks by in a bathing suit that's not much. You can't stop that person from walking beside you, but you can stop what you do next. You can sit there and you can continue to look at that person or lust over them, or you can just go back to your family. Like, "That was a temptation, but I'm not doing that."

And, so, that whole mindset has got to be perfect, and the more you work on your marriage the way God intended to be, to put some constraints in place that make it very difficult to do some of those things. 

Because you begin to value what God gave you and as your sex life grows, as God designed it in your marriage, those images go further and further in the distance. Because you begin to see them more as what they are, they're cheap imitations. What you have in front of you and you're developing together is God's plan and it's so darn good, that you don't want to go back there. But you've always got to remember that you're vulnerable, I think it's so important.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. And, I think, too, that we know that we have an enemy who wants to destroy us and tear us apart, and he preys on vulnerability. I know that Brian has said, in the past, he said, "I don't know why that sometimes when we're in a fight or we've had a lot of tension between us that week." He said, "I will have more, random, strangers, women just make little casual conversation out in public."

I'm like "That just sounds like the devil, doesn't it?" Just having these little moments.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, "Look how much she likes me, she thinks I'm pretty good, and Lindsay just slammed the door."

Lindsay: "What's wrong with her?"

Dr. Kim: And, so, yes, you've got to realize that, and we have to be aware that there's an enemy that is after us, and one of the things he loves to destroy is Christian marriages, you just got to be aware of that. 

So when those things, if Brian is out and those happen that he knows, "Huh, you think you're going to get me here? Well, I know I'm vulnerable and that did feel good for a second, but that's it. Come on, this is my wife, I'm going to go back home and we're going to figure this out."

Lindsay: Yes, because it's those little things, it's a person next to you on the beach. It's so easy to rationalize little things. A little comment with a stranger, looking at that person on the beach, whatever it is, but that stuff is just an inroad for the enemy.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, you just got to realize that the grass isn't greener.

Lindsay: No.

Dr. Kim: The grass is greener where you water it. And, so, water your own yard and develop it there because you got a chance to have a lot better greener, better grass here than that grass on the other side, for sure.

Lindsay: Yes, so what does this look like in your marriage? And how have you personally protected your marriage from porn?

Dr. Kim: That was really interesting, as I was thinking about that question. I think Nancy has always trusted me for some reason. She knew me in college and her trust for me, from the very beginning, as a college student, as a college guy, all the way through marriage, was the biggest constraint for me for not wanting to go to porn. 

Sure, I knew God didn't want that to be a part of my life. I figured that out and growing up, I would never say I didn't. I mean, we had a friend that his dad left Playboys out all the time. So, yes, at younger ages, I saw things that I wish I hadn't seen. 

So I knew God didn't want to do that, but not wanting to violate that trust that she put in me, is what really had a big impact. And the fact that we both have always communicated well about our sex life and worked on it, and it's been good. 

Our next door neighbor, I think, he got every porn magazine there was, and I never looked at them with him, but he would talk about it all the time. 

And, so, I knew there was access, but I just didn't want to do that. And the more that we developed our marriage, like I said before, and our sex life, the desire for those things went further in the background. Because we're visual as guys that can be attractive, sure. But, then, when you really think about it, "Well, what good does that do, in the big picture? Does that really help my marriage? That person isn't real in my life and this person is, and that's not going to help my marriage at all." 

So I think that, for me, has really been that. Then accountability, having guys that I'm accountable with, and just the prayer that I pray, consistently, is that my sexual desire is only for Nancy, and God has honored that. And not that I've never been tempted, but there's a big difference in being tempted and acting. And, so, with God's grace and Nancy's trust, that's been a big part for us.

Lindsay: Yes, we can't possibly imagine the impact of that prayer that you just shared. Because you can't know exactly how powerful it's been, but I think it's been so powerful. And that's something that's been part of my marriage, too, is just both of us training our eyes and training our desires and saying, "This is the person, this is my spouse, and so that is my gold standard." That is what I'm looking for, I'm not looking for anything else. Where he is today, where I am today, we just have decided that that's how we'll dictate and guard our eyes. 

But I think it's cool, too, because it's one of those prayers that's very biblical. Because the Scriptures talk about keeping the marriage bed pure and keeping your sexual desire within your marriage. And I know that whenever we pray right in line with Scripture, that God is moving in that prayer. And, so, it's cool to see that that's been something He's faithfully answered in our marriages.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I know Solomon wrote it, but it's when it talks about letting the breast of the wife of your youth satisfy your whole life." I mean, that principle is there. "This is the one I gave you when you were young. This is the one that I give you to live life with, all the way." And I love that He puts a sexual component in that because that just says the whole thing there, I think, "This is your sexual partner for life. This is the one you continue to invest in."

Lindsay: Yes, and it's an instruction and it's not like, "Oh, this will happen to you." It's saying, "Let this be what you do."

Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly, there's so much wisdom in the Bible if we just heed it, and not just think, "Oh, that's nice, but I'm going to do what I want to do." Do what the Bible says and you're not going to go wrong.

Lindsay: Yes, I mean, we can't separate God from any of these practical applications. He knows. He knows how He created us. He knows every temptation we've ever faced. So we need to stop acting like He doesn't know and trying to keep Him in the dark.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I mean, when you really think about it, God created marriage, He has a plan for marriage. I mean, who's going to have something better? I mean, He's the creator. If I created something, I'm going to know that better than anybody else will, and I'm going to know how it works best and what's best for it, and that's what God does for us. And that's where the enemy gets in our way just like he did with Adam and Eve, "Here's a better way."

The serpent said to Eve, "Did God really say that?" And I think that resonates in our minds a lot, and that's not going to work.

Lindsay: Yes. So what final piece of advice do you have on rebuilding intimacy after porn?

Dr. Kim: It takes work from both. The work is different for the husband, it's building trust back, it's being accountable, it's being trustworthy in ways that maybe you weren't before. For the wife, it's being willing to say, "I want this in my marriage. And yes, it's going to be a struggle at times, maybe at first, but I want to do that."

It's putting God in the middle of your marriage. You can pray to God to make your sex life better. He's not going to go, "I can't believe they said that." No, He wants it to be better. You can pray, together, for Him to help you to make it better, to have eyes only for each other, those things. 

And, so, part of that whole thing is a wakeup call to invest in your marriage, and continue together to build something that you both cherish. And that's where, again, you see God turn something that you thought was so devastating and it was, at that time, but He turned it around to make something beautiful out of it and He does.

Lindsay: Oh, that's so good. That's a great place to end today, very encouraging. We pray that this episode is helpful to your marriage, and helpful to restore and redeem if you've been through this situation and if you haven't, that you can take the steps to be safe and protect your marriage. 

Next week, we have two interviews coming out that you will not want to miss. The first one, Dannah Gresh, shares her personal story of recovering in marriage after finding out about her husband's porn use. Here's a quick look at what you'll hear in that episode. 

Dannah: I knew, tell someone, that's how you fight shame, you tell someone. So I did, I got on the phone, I was like, "I'm not going to give this shame, any time to grow grass under my feet. I'm going to call a friend." And she just said, "Dannah, it sounds like you're stunned and you don't know what to do."

I said, "I have no idea what to do. When I walk back in that house, I don't know what to say and I don't know what to do."

Lindsay: So make sure you don't miss that one. We appreciate your time spent with us today. If this podcast has helped you and your marriage, will you go ahead and take the time to leave that rating in review today? We certainly appreciate that. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today. 

[00:42:22] < Intro >

Announcer:Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so, today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.