How to Have a Thriving Marriage When You're in Ministry | Ep. 574
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
If you have been listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast for a while. You've probably heard Dr. Kim say to always put God first and your spouse second every day. But when your job is vocational ministry, it can be really tempting to put that ahead of your spouse since you're working for God. So today we're talking all about how to keep your marriage thriving, when you're in ministry. It is your primary ministry, after all. So, Dr. Kim, first off, why does this topic matter? What's different in marriage for a couple that's in ministry?
Dr. Kim: I'd heard a quote, or somebody talk about marriage and ministry, a couple of months ago. So I started searching for that, yesterday, for that stat. And there was a survey that Barna did, and it's really interesting, "80% of people in ministry believe that ministry has negatively affected their marriage and families."
Lindsay: Wow.
Dr. Kim: And then two out of five pastors nationwide are seriously thinking about quitting the ministry. So I think there are some different things. Now, we've had this Great Resignation, after COVID, within a lot of different areas, but we've certainly seen a lot in the church. So the topic matters because ministry is hard, it's demanding. There are expectations that are put on a couple and a pastor, whether it's the husband or the wife, that are a lot of times very unrealistic. But people think they're realistic.
There's all the emotional demands that go on. If you think about what a pastor does; they intervene in crisis, grief, loss, conflicts. And, so, just draining yourself, pouring into people, it can take away from your marriage. And, so, a pastor in a church, and there are a lot of different ways people can be in ministry, certainly. But just as you look at the pastors, they are in the spotlight, no matter what the size of the church. It's like if they're outside the house, they're expect to always be on.
And, so, I think that puts so much on a spouse, and it can definitely have a toll on the marriage. And I heard this, the first time I heard it was years ago at a conference, and I heard Josh McDowell talking to a group of pastors from around the world. And he said, "Your first ministry has to be your spouse and your family. It has to be."
And if you look at the Bible, that's what it says. It is God first, spouse second. And when you're in ministry, it's so hard to not equate ministry with God and "I'm putting ministry first because..." No, you're supposed to put God first, spouse second, and then your ministry, and it's easy to get that messed up. Because you get pulled, all the time, in that, and you just don't have much left, then, to give to your family.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's so true. Man, those stats are really interesting. I'm surprised that it was only two in five that are thinking about quitting, at this point. Honestly, because we've talked to so many people and it's just been so tough after COVID. A lot of things changing and a lot of burnout happening.
Dr. Kim: Yes, just from what I see, from that perspective, a lot of them really did survive through COVID, but it was so hard. And, then, doing church online, which churches did that they'd never done before. So you got to figure all that out, and all those things that went along with that. And, then, after COVID, "Ah! everybody will come back?" No, they didn't all come back.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And, so, then, you've got, "Okay, how do we handle this? Does that affect our giving? Why aren't people coming back?" And you start analyzing it and you can take it personal. So, yes, I'm with you, it seems like it would be more like maybe three out of five or more in that. But this survey was last year. But that fact of how it affects the marriage, and then if you put on top of that, that this ministry is hurting my marriage and hurting my family. It goes into, "Okay, should I get out of this thing?"
Lindsay: That's really heavy. I mean, I was surprised that it was 80% that thought that ministries hurt their family and marriage, that's really tough.
Dr. Kim: We'll go into some more things, but, I think, you got to take personal responsibility in it, too. What are you not doing? And we're going to talk about some of those things because that's a really high percentage to be across the board. I could see somebody, in a particular church, saying, "Yes, this is really hurting my marriage, being in this church. They don't value marriage in that way. But when I'm doing stuff with my family and marriage, they may not say something overt, but I get those looks. I get those side comments." Those kind of things. But for it to be across the board, it's pretty big.
Lindsay: Well, and one thing that I think about why this topic matters. Like why are marriages different in ministry? It's all people centric. So a lot of times in ministry, like one thing specific to COVID, I'll just say this so I don't get off topic. But specific to COVID, a lot of people were not as in contact during COVID. Everyone was trying to figure out how to respond, personally, or what to do.
And, so, for our church, we experienced some people leaving our church because they didn't come to church. Some people left our church because they didn't like how we handled COVID. Some people came to our church from other places because they really liked how we handled COVID. And we didn't realize until later, that some people were considering that to be some sort of a political statement, and they thought that the handling of that era was politicized in some ways.
So some people came expecting certain types of political alignment that we did not endorse, or agree with, or understand that we were implicitly communicating.
So I'm just saying this because, I'm guessing, there are probably a lot of ministry couples who have experienced this in some way. That the fallout was a lot different than what they expected.
And, so, personally, for ministry couples, you're building relationships with people in your church and then they disappear. They don't say anything; they just go away. And then new ones come in and the same thing happens. Again, they don't say anything, they just go away. Or maybe they say a lot of things and it's really tough, and then they go away. All these things are really, personally, hurtful and draining.
And, so, for ministry couples, I don't know what other job you have, where people can just flip in and out without any sort of expectation. I mean, the healthy thing is to communicate with the pastor and church leadership, if you're coming into a church or leaving a church. But I will say most people don't do that.
Dr. Kim: I bet that's true, and, obviously, the pastor is going to be aware of it. Maybe not somebody in some huge megachurch or something, but most pastors are going to notice that. Then how do you take that. If they haven't told you anything, it's easy, in this era, right now, for pastors to take things personally and negative just because of everything we've been through. And they've had to navigate something that we've never had to navigate before, in our culture. And where people still have the option of church online, which I'm so thankful we had it during COVID.
Absolutely, that made such a difference for so many people to stay connected. I can't imagine us going through that period of time without church online. When we couldn't be in churches for a period of time. But there's something about being in the building that you need to be there, and how do you help people value that again. And see there's a difference when you are in that building and you're worshipping side by side with other people.
And even if you don't have long conversations; you've got people and you're looking at them, and you're saying hi, a little bit, and you can stop and talk to people, which is harder to do. You can do it in the chat, online, but still we need that face to face at time, and I think it's been hard. Nobody has come up with a magic formula to help people see, to value that in the way that, I think, most pastors would want it to be valued.
Lindsay: Yes, you're right and, also, if people were a little bit on the fence about it, to begin with, it's an easy jumping off point. But I think that, too, there is an element of discomfort with being shoulder to shoulder with other people. Where it's definitely more comfortable to be home in your pajamas, on your couch, with your cup of coffee.
And, so, I do think, though, that discomfort is part of what it takes to build relationships. Getting outside of your house, outside of, potentially, your comfort zone, and interacting with people. It's not easier, but I do think that that's a really important part of growth. That is part of why God has purposed the church to be part of a believer's faith walk.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, that's a great point. I mean, God did create the church, and there was a reason for it. I know they didn't have church online back then.
Lindsay: They did not.
Dr. Kim: But there's value in that. And I think that all those things go together, to make it hard to be a pastor in our culture, today, for sure. I think it's always been hard in ways, to be a pastor, sure. Pastors that I worked with before COVID that had all kinds of issues, too. But, I think, all of a sudden, it's just been ramped up a little bit, maybe a lot, because of COVID.
Lindsay: Yes, for sure, that's been a huge impact. So it's impossible not to talk about it. But, also, I mean, I grew up in a ministry family. My dad was a music minister my entire childhood and growing up years, and then I never ever planned to marry anybody in ministry. And after Brian and I got engaged, he said, "Yes, I think I'm called to work in this college ministry." He was volunteering, he started as a volunteer, and that was fine. That was fine and, then, after we've been married about a year, he got hired on staff and, gosh, did it spiral.
And, so, now we planted a church about ten years ago, so I'm a pastor's wife. But growing up in ministry, I did not want to be involved because you just knew everyone was watching you. And everyone was, I don't use the word judging, but I think they were, actually. They were just watching because, goodness, if a pastor's kid doesn't have it worked out, then who does? But we sure don't. We just don't.
Dr. Kim: No. I do think there are churches where kids feel that, probably, more than others, and that is a tough burden to lay on your kids. And that may, to go back to the whole of this thing, too, where a pastor says, "I'm handling this fairly well, but my kids are drowning in this because of the church we're in." And I think it is. I think I heard that analogy years ago, but it's a fishbowl kind of thing. And you can't be perfect kids, in fact, or you wouldn't be normal.
Lindsay: Right. And, I mean, I'll be honest, I wasn't even trying. I wasn't really interested. I was like, "Fine, you want to watch me? Then you can, and that's on you."
Dr. Kim: Right, I think, that's, probably, you either go that way or go the other way. And you try to act so hard and that is hard, too, because you're trying to be somebody you can't be.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, that's tough. And, then, in addition to that, you have, like you said, the unrealistic expectations people will have. People have just a tendency to put your ministry ministers on a pedestal, which is not Christ like. There's no one exalted above another. But we are called to be above reproach, but that does not mean we belong on a pedestal.
Dr. Kim: Right.
Lindsay: And, in addition, one more thing is I just think that there's a relational difficulty. Because with ministry it does flow out of your character and out of who you are as a person. And, so, your community is wrapped up in that by default. Because you're going to be ministering to people in your church, relating with people in your church, building up that specific local church body. And, so, there's a type of relational buy-in required of ministry that I don't think exists, unless you're an entrepreneur, maybe, or a founder, I think, it's a heavy burden.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and you know this better, but you would think, "Okay, people come to this church, they like Brian, they come here. They all have the same expectations of him as a pastor." And that's not true, is it?
Lindsay: No.
Dr. Kim: So you get all these different things there that a pastor has to navigate. And, I think, it's, sometimes, hard to convince somebody that their expectation is unrealistic and, then, they get upset. It's just tough. And, I think, you're right, it's one of the tougher position there is. The saving grace is that God put him there and put these people there, and that God does equip us. But that doesn't mean it's not hard.
I think one of the things I've seen, that I've loved, about The Chosen, is that the times that you see Jesus in it, just really tired, and really needing time with the Father. Needing sleep, and making that very clear, that we see that in His humanness, and I've just loved that.
Because, I guess, it's something I always knew, you read about those things in the Bible. I can't think of the man's name that portrays Jesus does such a good job of that. You can see it in his countenance that he is just worn down, and he needs that rest because people had all kinds of unrealistic expectations of him. I mean, he wasn't going to come in as a king, the kind of king they envisioned.
Lindsay: Yes, so He definitely did not uphold those.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: So I'll step away from the microphone because I could talk about this all day. So if we missed anything that's really heavy on your heart, email me. My email will be in the show notes because I know it's been heavy for a lot of us. But, Dr. Kim, what are some common pitfalls you've seen ministry couples struggling with?
Dr. Kim: I think it's hard, sometimes, for some pastors to know it's okay to protect their marriage, with their time. Setting clear boundaries, managing other people's expectations. Because the pastor has a role in that, and that is if someone's unrealistic, to let them know that. It's hard for some pastors to say no.
It's hard for some of them to protect their spouse. Then not only we're talking expectations of the pastor, what are the expectations they have of the spouse? "Well, the pastor we had before, I mean, she was always here. She made the best food for the potluck dinners and she did this and that." And your spouse may not know where the kitchen is. And, so, how do you protect how do you make those expectations realistic with your congregation, for your spouse? And I think that's a pitfall that can come into.
Not ending the workday in a timely manner, is one I see all the time. I mean, I've told people, I've said, "Set your watch and if your quit time is five or six, whatever it is, and that goes off, you get up and you walk out. I don't care what you're doing."
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: If you're on the phone, say, "I got to go." Unless somebody's in a crisis or something. And, then, not finding that intentional time together, I see it so much. And not praying together; I did a talk, this has been, probably, 10 or 15 years ago now, to a group of pastors, probably about 50, 60 pastors. And one of the things that I said, "Everybody in here that prays with your spouse, on a regular basis, raise your hand." There wasn't one hand that went up, and that wasn't a "Catch you" question. It was like I expected, "See, we know how to get other people to do that."
But no, they weren't, and this is from people from different congregations. Strong, Bible-believing, all the things. So I think the pitfalls is a lot of it, of just the things that we're not doing; to protect our marriage, to setting boundaries, to being able to say no, to setting that side of time. I think on my calendar it says—every day, 30 minutes, it's on that calendar for Nancy and I. And I just hold that sacred.
I don't book anything else in there. And I think that was a big step for me because it was easy to say, "Yes, I'll go ahead and take one more client to see, today. Just because I've got that time, so I don't do that anymore. It's like, "No, that's her time and she expects me to walk in the door at that time, and that's when we spend our time together.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, you have to begin to do some things like that. And it may make a few people upset but, hopefully, they're going to see the value in that. That you're a better pastor because you're a better husband, because you're a better father. Because you're taking the time to do those things.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm. I'm wondering, Dr. Kim, so when you did that. If you were to make the decision, "No, I will not see that one more client because I'm going to see Nancy during that time." Was there any guilt with thinking, "Oh, this person might really need this session. It might really be something that they need from me and Nancy's okay, she already knows everything's fine." Was there any of that involved?
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, it was hard. I say yes, so easy. I say no so difficult, and God's taught me a lot about that, the value in saying no, but that was hard for me. And the thing that helped me with that, in particular, was to realize that Jesus said no. He could have healed people 24/7, when He was here. But He knew he had to say no at times, so that helped me.
So, yes, I guess, if it was someone that was suicidal or somebody called me, I mean, an emergency, Nancy would understand. But that's got to be the exception not the rule, and mine was being the rule of every week. "Oh, yes, I'll just add that person in here."
And, so, I had to realize that I've got another spot that week that that person could come, and that they're really in God's hands, and there's other options for them too. And I'm not the savior of the world. I'm a counselor that works these hours, and as long as I do that and keep my life balanced with the things that I do and my home life, I'm going to be much more effective. And if I start compromising those areas, I'm headed toward burnout, probably, and I won't go there.
Lindsay: Yes, that's really good, and I love that you just said a word that I think we all need to hear, which is we're not the savior. Not a single person in ministry is the one who's going to do the work of saving someone.
Dr. Kim: No, somebody else is there, too. God, He has called more people to marriage ministry than me.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: One of the things I love about what we do at The Awesome Marriage is we are connecting with so many other people. That love the Lord, and love marriage, and God's using them in ways, too, and it takes all of us working together.
Lindsay: Yes, that's so good, one thing it makes me think of is when Brian was early in ministry. He worked in an organization that really glorified overwork, and being busy, and looking busy all the time. And that it was like an honor to be out four nights a week, doing things. And that if you felt it was too much, you should think differently because it's a privilege to be doing this work, and we should be thankful to be part of it.
That was really hard because he was prone towards workaholism, anyway. He likes to achieve and get things done, and that really got him set off on that course. Have you seen that happen a lot with ministry?
Dr. Kim: I think so, yes, it is. It's like you are supposed to do this, it happens.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I think there's some ministries, and, probably, church denominations that lend themselves more to that than others. And, so, if you're in an organization like that or a church like that, it's going to be hard not to fall into that. Because, especially, if you're someone, and I don't know for sure if this is true, I've never seen, but I think most pastors are achievers. I mean, they're go-getters. They have a passion about what they do. So it's really easy to justify those things and just fall into that trap.
Lindsay: Yes, so what can you do if that's your situation?
Dr. Kim: I think you can look at; is there something I can change either within myself or the organization? And it's also to give yourself, say, "This may not be the place that I need to be." And pray about it and ask God to open other doors. And I started thinking to ask God, "Okay, guide me. How do I make it work here if that's where you want me? Or open a door so I know where you'd like me to go."
Most of the time where I've worked with people in those situations, God's opened another door. Because sometimes it's just really hard to change a culture, even if God wants it changed. I mean, there are people in there and He gives us choices. And, so, sometimes, I think that's really hard for that to happen.
Lindsay: Yes. Well, I think that's a great word, too. Because, I think, that, sometimes, it's really hard to see outside of that if you're in it, and just think, "Well, I guess, this is how ministry is." Even though it's really draining, but it's not always like that.
Dr. Kim: When I was first starting in counseling and I was doing internships and stuff, and it was at a ministry called Scope Ministries in Oklahoma City. And they would have some people come in for long, like for a week at a time, things like that. And we had a lot of people who came from different ministries, that were close to burnout because of the culture that you're talking about. That would just come there and spend a week or two weeks.
Some of them ended up staying longer than that just to get whole again, and to tend to know, "If God is sending me back into this, I got to have some tools to do things differently. I've got to be able to set some boundaries and say, no." And I didn't follow all those people at all, but they went back healthier and, hopefully, they were able to set boundaries and that was respected.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, some of it is. Just like, "If I'm going to stay here, I've got to set some boundaries. I got to do something different, and if that doesn't work for them. I respect that, I know it, but, no, can't do that."
Lindsay: Well, that's really good.
[00:22:44] < Music >
Announcer: Do not let your ministry take out your marriage. Ministry places unique challenges on your marriage, but you can learn how to sustain your marriage in ministry. In our Sustaining Your Marriage in Ministry course, Dr. Kim shares practical tips on how to have a healthy marriage, even in the midst of the challenges and tensions of ministry. Hear from real pastors and their spouses about mistakes they've made in the past, and how they're sustaining their marriage well, now in full time ministry.
This course has six sessions. At the end of each session is an interview with a ministry couple about that topic. The sessions cover;
Boundaries with your time.
Managing others’ expectations.
Five simple ways to invest in your marriage.
Counting the fruit.
When ministry hurts and bi-vocational ministry.
Ministry creates unique joys and unique challenges for your marriage. Learn how your marriage can thrive through it all with this self-paced course. Find the course at awesomemarriage.com by clicking on Awesome Marriage University, under the Resources drop-down or by using the link in today's show notes.
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Lindsay: So thinking of all those different things that we've talked about, up to this point. How do they affect a marriage over time?
Dr. Kim: I think most of them are just a gradual erosion or chipping away at. I don't think any of those are something that is going to be one way, one day, and one day the next day, it can gradually do this. And, so, what happens the more that happens, the less connection there is in marriage. We talk about connection a lot, and how essential it is to be connected in a marriage. Because if it's not, you're just drifting along and you're living as strangers, all those kind of things.
So I think if it's not marriage over ministry, then, that's not going to work. The bottom line is if marriage is not good, eventually, your ministry is not good either. It's just not. And, so, it just gradually affects the marriage and affects the ministry, and neither one of those are good. They're both negative, and I just think that if your home life is not good and you're in ministry, eventually, it's going to affect your ministry. I've seen it too many times.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, because the marriage is a covenantal relationship, the ministry is not.
Dr. Kim: Exactly, right.
Lindsay: Yes, so, hopefully, most people are agreeing with that, at this point, when they're hearing you say that. And don't need to be convinced that their marriage is the most important thing. That is my hope and prayer.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and people struggle with that. I know that, and it goes back to expectations, it's either that they or someone else has put on themselves. And you just have to look at it, if you just break it down, practically. If you're not in a healthy marriage, it's going to affect you, whether you're a pastor or wherever it is.
There are studies that have been done on the workforce, in companies, of people that have trouble with their marriage and how it affects their work life and their culture there. So it just makes sense, logically, that the importance of that relationship and that should be, it has to be taken care of.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And, then, you're going to be more effective at really everything else you do.
Lindsay: Yes. Because, really, if you're not taking care of the marriage, there's something there that you're not dealing with. So if you're not dealing with things, then you're not growing as a person, in the way that God would have you. And, so, that's going to block you and prevent you from being in the fullness of who He's designed you to be.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: I do think it's important to mention, too, while we're talking about this. I mean, it is easier, probably, to keep working than to spend time with your spouse.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I think one of the hard things is, and maybe you're in a time where you're struggling in your marriage, which we all go through. But if you're a pastor and everybody loves you. And everything you do, they think, "Oh, my gosh, you're the most wonderful pastor I've ever known." And stuff like that. Well, you're getting a lot of accolades there and that feels good. And if you're not getting it at home because you got to get it at home first, those accolades and those kinds of things.
Then it's really easy to continue to do that. "Well, I can work here and these people think I'm great. I'm not going home. I'm not going to fight tonight; I don't want to do that. So, I think, I'll schedule another Bible study for Thursday night, so I can be out of the house one more night. Because these people, afterwards they're going to think I'm great. They're going to tell me that was the best Bible study they've ever been to."
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So, yes, there are some real challenges there of realizing you got to go home first, and you got to solve that problem at home. And then you can do your ministry, but you got to solve that. You don't avoid home to build your ministry.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, even if it is easier to be at Bible study than to help bathe the baby, and read them the stories at bedtime.
Dr. Kim: Right, exactly.
Lindsay: Yes, that reminds me of this story, which I can share because it's published in a book, Paul David Tripp wrote it. And I just loved that he shared this. He shared about a time when, I haven't read it in a while, so it might come out a little bit off. But he shared about feeling unappreciated in his marriage and actually saying to his wife, "Don't you realize that 99% of women in our church would love to be married to me? And you're finding fault and picking on me." And she's like, "Excuse me, who are you married to?"
And I think he said that to say that that was the extent of the pride he had gotten into. And Brian and I always laugh about that example because it's like, "Man, that is so ridiculous." But who of us hasn't one time thought, "Everybody else seems to like me fine, why don’t you in our marriage?"
Dr. Kim: Yes, and it's got to be you because all these other people can't be wrong. "What's wrong with you?" Now, I think, that's way too common and it's easy to fall into that, and it's just like, "These people love me."
Well, those people know you a little bit. Your spouse knows you, hopefully, better than anybody else does.
Lindsay: Would any of these people live with you for a week and think the same thing?
Dr. Kim: Right. Invite your spouse up to the stage, the next Sunday, and let her tell all the things that bug her about you.
Lindsay: Oh, man. All right, so, yes, if you're looking at those 99% of people. You need to start looking in the mirror because that is a validation problem we've got going on there.
Dr. Kim: But, well, I think it's where the enemy uses something that is really good. Because you want to serve people and you want them to enjoy the Bible study. So those things are not wrong, it's where you put that accolade. And, so, the enemy can use that against you, "Well, I told you not to marry that woman or guy, and now you know why. Well, you're stuck, you can't get a divorce, but you don't have to stay there. You don't have to develop that marriage. Just stay up here and talk to these people that are loving your Bible study." So it could be real tricky.
Lindsay: No doubt, He can twist anything but, especially, things that matter.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Lindsay: So, in light of all this, how can couples protect their marriage?
Dr. Kim: Well, when I've talked a couple of times, and we have a course on how to sustain marriage and ministry. And I mentioned four things in there, as I was looking through some notes yesterday, that I think are really still true, that you can prepare. First one was your budget. Are your family needs taken care of?
Do you have money in there to have time with your spouse, date nights, those kind of things?
Are you willing, you tell everybody else that comes in that has trouble to go to counseling. Are you putting money aside or would you put aside money, if you guys need marriage counseling? And would you be willing to do that?
I mention calendar. I think it's so important. On mine, it's times with Nancy from date nights, to lunch we do on Saturday, to in the evening time is on my calendar. And, so, you need to make sure that there is time for your spouse, and you got to hold that sacred. I mean, almost life and death thing, that's it. And you may say no to some people, you may tick off some people, but it's going to help your marriage. And, honestly, if they don't like it, then your marriage comes first.
And then your thoughts, we did a podcast last time about how to encourage and support your spouse. Your thought life, is it positive? Are you thinking positive things about your spouse? And then your prayers; are you praying for your spouse? Are you praying with your spouse? Are you praying that God help you to be a good spouse and to pursue them? So;
Your budget.
Your calendar.
Your thoughts.
And your prayers.
I think all of those things together can protect your marriage because you're doing, in each one of those things, things that are healthy for your marriage relationship.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, those are really good ones, and I like how practical they are.
Dr. Kim: Yes, because it is. I think sometimes we want to make things too hard. And, really, I talk about it, and is that marriage isn't rocket science. It's really just being consistent with the things that make a difference. And, so, if you allow money for your family. If you set off time for your spouse, your calendar. You're thinking positive things and you're praying for and with your spouse. Man, do those day after day and you're going to be in really good shape, for sure.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, I love that. That's so good. So are there any specific boundaries for ministry couples that can help?
Dr. Kim: I think a couple's got to set aside a Sabbath for themselves. Because everybody else that you know Sabbath is the day when you're working, probably, the most. And, so, that's really important to have that and to hold that sacred. That this is a day that I don't schedule anything.
This is a day that we have some time together, those kind of things, I think, that really helps. Because you see so many pastors that they've worked, they're doing seven days a week and they do it over and over. And they think, "Well, I think, next Monday I can take off. Oh, no, I can't do it." If somebody asks you to do something, "Can I have lunch with you?"
"Yes, I'll have lunch with you." And then you just said yes to that person, and you just said no to your spouse, and that's a good way to look at it. Anytime you say yes to one thing, you're, probably, saying no to something else. And, a lot of times, if that's your spouse, it's not good. I think it's good to have the regular sign off time from work and let people know.
I'm going to leave the office at 5:30. I don't check anything. I'll check it at nine before I go to bed. If it's an emergency, you can alert someone, and they'll get a hold of me. But other than that, I'm signed off.
And, so, one thing that helped me a lot, too, was making that transition from work from the counseling center to home. And because that was very easy to think about the people during the day, "What am I going to do the next time they come in?"
And, so, I walk in the house and I'm still on counseling mode. And, so, taking that time home and beginning to pray and pray. Leave each one of those people that I saw that day in God's hands, pray for them. And then beginning to say, "Okay, what's going to be like when I walk in. When the kids are home; what are they going to need? What's Nancy going to need when I get home? How do I just get engaged with them?"
And it made a big difference because, then, I walked in and I was home. I wasn't mixed with things I was still dealing with from the day and, then, still trying to be a dad and a husband. And, so, that really helps.
I think managing each other's expectations, other people's expectations of you, going back to when you're available. There are times that if you set aside Thursday afternoon to do your sermon prep, you've got to hold that sacred. It's okay to do that. It's okay to say no to the person that wants to have lunch on that day or wants to drop by to talk about something. You can say things like, "Yes, I really want to meet with you, I can't today, I can do that..." Tell the other day you can do it. So you can learn to say things in a way that really helps.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So, I think that's good. Your days off and really making sure that you take those days off. I think a lot of people in church, they expect their pastor to be there all the time for them. No matter what. They don't really think about what's going on. So if you don't set the boundaries they will.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, I think so.
Dr. Kim: And, so, when someone asks you, "Can we meet?" That you don't always have to say yes, and you don't really have to say why. You can just say, "I can't do that." give the option. "I can't do that, but I can do this." They don't have to know that you're going to the movie with your wife that afternoon. Because this is a show that your wife has been waiting on to come, and wanted to share it with you.
If they ask why, you can say you've got a previous commitment, which you do. The previous commitment, it could be you're just chilling with your wife watching Netflix. You know what, it's okay. Your marriage has to be a priority and so does your time for rest, and you have to do that. And getting to where you don't feel bad about saying no is really important.
Because ministry really is kind of a marathon, in so many ways. It's just you're always sprinting. But if you don't stop and do the things we're talking about, you're going to burn out. And you got to say no to things now so you can make it the long haul.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I mean, if you go strong for seven years of ministry and you have burned yourself out, you may never get back in ministry again. Now that doesn't mean God can't use you in some other things, I'm not saying that. But if you take care of yourself, you can continue healthier for such a much longer time.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: So the other thing, I think, happens is deciding that when you make a decision, what's the good thing and what's the best thing. Because a lot of times we need to say no to good things. It's not like some pastor is saying, "Well, no, I'm going to go home, and I'm going to the strip club with the guys.
Lindsay: Right.
Dr. Kim: Of course, it's not that. It's usually, "I can spend time with this person or do premarital counseling with this person." But you can reschedule those, if it's interfering with the best thing, and that's time with your spouse. If you're having dinner with somebody in your congregation, it might be a good thing. But having dinner with your spouse because she fixed something special that night, is the best thing.
And, so, it's being able to look at things more objectively. And I do think that people that get unhappy about your boundaries, is usually people that just want to overstep boundaries. And they're, probably, overstepping yours and everybody else that's in their life, and that doesn't mean you need to change those boundaries.
So for each one, what do you need to do? What are the things you can do there? How do you say no? How do you take time to take care of yourself, and making sure you do all those things? And what you'll find, definitely, your marriage is going to be better, but your ministry is going to be better, too.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Putting in more time doesn't always make you a better pastor, or a better preacher, or deliver a better message. Because if you're up there and you are drained, and you're stressed, our homes and our marriage should be that place where we rejuvenate ourselves.
And, so, when we are in a rough position, like maybe as a pastor, or other things that are hard, when we walk outside that door, that's got to be your refuge. And if you don't let that be your refuge, and your place to recharge, and to be loved, and cared for, and let your hair down, you need that, and you just need to have it.
Lindsay: Yes, because, like you're saying, having that time, spending more time is not going to make you a better pastor. It's also not going to produce more fruit in people's lives. It's not going to bring more people to Jesus. It's not going to make them happier.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: It's not.
Dr. Kim: No, and that's such a good point, of just not fooling yourself, in those things. Because, I think, that's where the enemy does some subtle things, again. "Well, aren't you supposed to save a few more people than you're saving." Yes, so if you worked a little harder when you do that. Because Satan wants you to burn out so he didn't have to deal with you in ministry anymore. I don't know, Brian's, probably, had to deal with all those things as being a pastor, over the years.
Lindsay: Yes, all of it. And I think it a lot of it when we planted the church, it felt like a sprint at first. But when you think about it, it's really more of a marathon, like you said. And, so, one tip that I would say for boundaries is just reassessing things. We've had to reassess things, like having a Sabbath day has always been really important to us. My parents modeled that really well.
They always took Fridays off, and so we've done that. But then we've had to readjust how we do it practically, in different seasons of life and in different situations.
And, so, reassessing your boundaries, figuring out how many nights a week is okay to spend out. And that changes in seasons, too. I mean, this semester, because we had our first child going to graduate from high school. I just said, "I'm not doing anything." Well, that's not actually true. I lead worship, so I have a night, a week, that I'm at rehearsal, and that's been something I've done forever. Not every single week, but when I'm on the schedule, and that Sunday I'll be on.
But I said, "That's all I can manage this semester." And that was a big step for us and it was, for sure, the right step, because we didn't know how that would play out for us. And even just for me, personally, the emotional burden of that season.
I didn't want to come into something else feeling like I needed to get something from it, that it can't give me. Or like I need to provide something there that I can't give. And, so, those, for me, are big signals that if I'm personally trying to take more or trying to give more than is possible. That, maybe, I don't need to do that thing in that season.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's good. That was a great example of something that you prioritized because you felt like that was the right thing to do. That's something you wanted to do and need to do, and you were willing. Did you get any pushback from anybody?
Lindsay: There's always a couple of people who make a little snarky comment and be like, "Oh, you don't have to go." Or whatever dumb thing people say. But I've just learned that's really on them. That's their perspective coming out. I don't take it personally anymore.
Dr. Kim: Exactly, and that's where you have to go. You got to just, when those things happen, just give that to God and not let it stick because they don't define you.
Lindsay: No.
Dr. Kim: God defines you, and God wanted you to be the wife, the mother that He put you in that position to be, and that all comes first.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I think the hardest ones are the snide comments. Because you're just like-
Lindsay: Yes, I really do think, though, that the Lord has just shown me, in the past, I mean, maybe it's even more since COVID. But just seeing how people will say those things because they're not at peace inside of themselves, and it makes me sad for them. But I can't do anything about that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly.
Lindsay: So those are some specific boundaries for couples. What about for individuals? What are some steps individuals can take?
Dr. Kim: I think just taking care of yourself. So having healthy boundaries, obviously, thinking those through. Having an exercise plan, that is so important, and I see a difference in people, in ministry, that do and don't, over time.
Making sure you have that time alone with God in His Word. Whatever that is, and it's not sermon prep, it's got to be separate from that. Because, I think, a lot of pastors want, "Well, I mean, I spent three hours preparing my sermon this week." No, you have to have that alone time with just you and God. And, then, make sure you've got regular time set aside to invest in your marriage, and that's not just to sit on the couch together watching the same thing. Which, there's nothing wrong with that, but you got to do other things, too.
And, I think, too, making time to be in fellowship with other people in ministry, just to have fellowship time. I think guys need that and we're talking about guys, there are a lot of women pastors and all this applies to them. Same with just a little quirk because being a mom, too, adds another thing for a lot of them, that they have to deal with.
But being around others in ministry, I know some pastors that have done that. There was a pastor group that I knew of, it's probably been seven or eight years ago, I don't know if they still meet. They didn't talk about it much, but they were from five different denominations that don't agree on everything.
But they met together for lunch, I think every two weeks, and it was so good for them. Because they shared, and they talked, and they got past doctrine to the heart of what ministry really is and, "How do I do ministry well and have the marriage and family that I want?" I think having others in that to talk through things like that is really important.
And, so, if you're a minister, don't be afraid to grab somebody else. And you may want to grab somebody else. And you may want to grab somebody, maybe, you're a pastor, maybe, you grab somebody that's in Young Life, or Campus Crusade, or something like that. Because everybody in ministry has their own struggles with that and spend some time together. Encouraging each other, praying for each other, those are really helpful.
Lindsay: Those are so good.
Dr. Kim: Those are the things, I think, would really make a difference.
Lindsay: Yes, I think so, too, I agree. And I would have shouted that same concept of having other ministry friends, who are from different contexts. That's something that's been really life-giving for both of us. For Brian, I guess they had a few guys who knew each other, who were all, for the most part, either campus ministry or church plant. And, then, they started getting together and then all of their wives, we were like, "Wait, no, we want to do that, too."
So we started meeting separately on our own. And there's just something about that shared experience that everyone really understands. When you say something about what you've gone through. That you know you can't tell any other person who's not in ministry because you just know they won't understand. But these people do. They do.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: It's huge.
Dr. Kim: I think it's so important, and I know for some people it's hard to take that step. But I would encourage you to take it. I don't think you'll ever regret that.
Lindsay: Yes, and I think, too, if you're in a place, in a church context, where some churches have a feeling that other churches are, maybe, like a rival church, maybe. I've heard people say this-
Dr. Kim: Competition.
Lindsay: Yes. I've heard people, in my church, verbalize that. "Oh, you're hanging out with the competition." No, these are our teammates. We are on the same team.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think that's the same thing with marriage ministry. We're not at odds with XO Marriage or Expedition Marriage. No, we encourage them and they encourage us to continue to do the work together. But, also, they understand some of the things that we struggle with.
And, so, just like other people, other ministries are going to understand, and that makes so much difference. Because none of us like to feel like we're alone or feel like we're the only one that's dealing with this. And I don't think we're ever the only one dealing with something, somebody else has, or is, or will be.
Lindsay: I think so. I mean, that's one of Satan's biggest lies is that you're the only one and it's not true. So if you haven't found those people, yet, start praying about that. Start reaching out, just because you meet once doesn't mean you have to meet forever. But you can, if you love it, you can.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And I've talked to some people that I think really did that well, we blame everything to COVID, but quit during COVID and haven't picked it back up. And I've encouraged them to, "Hey, are you still meeting?"
"No, we, kind of, quit during COVID."
But I said, "Wouldn't you guys... I bet they'd like to get together again, and get that started again."
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes, it's not too late.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: You can start back right now. One other thing I've done, personally, is, like you're talking about getting exercise routine, I've done that forever. But I always exercised alone. And, so, one thing I changed in the past couple of years was getting people to exercise with. So I meet with a whole group; it's a team that I'm now part of. And it has been so good to get around people who are not at all related to church. They don't know me in that context or that role, they just know me. And, so, that's refreshing, and I've enjoyed that more than I expected.
Dr. Kim: That's great. Yes, that's good, and you can look for those opportunities to connect. Some people like to work out alone just because they think and process or listen to things. And, so, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But there's also the opportunity, looking for those opportunities to connect with other people. And I love what you said about being in a situation where nobody looks at you, "There's pastor's wife." So you can just do things a little different.
In our small group, a few years ago, we had a pastor and his wife that joined it. And they said, I don't know how many times they thanked us for just, "We can be ourselves here." You're not looking at it at us as Pastor so and so. You're looking at us as who they are." And it was really valuable for them. And they felt we were a safe place for them and they could talk about things, and so that's really good.
Lindsay: So valuable, yes.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: So, as we're starting to wrap up, let's talk briefly about burnout. You've mentioned it a little earlier. So what are signs and symptoms of that?
Dr. Kim: Yes, it's been on my mind a lot. Our friend Carey Nieuwhof and I listen to Carey, and talk to him. But he said something, not too long ago, that I thought, and I may get the quote a little bit wrong. But he said, "We're nearing the point in the church where if we don't take pastoral health care seriously, our ill health will take us." And, I think, with all the things that we've talked about that pastors go through, and the stress, and everything, I think, that's true.
So signs of it, definitely, if you're feeling stressed. Depression, and you can go online and take a quick depression inventory. If you're honest and it shows you're depressed, then, you're depressed. Insufficient sleep and rest. Sometimes we think we're super men and I can get by with four hours of sleep. There is nobody that I know of that can get by with four hours sleep. We can't, most of us can't. And you got to have good sleep and rest.
Spiritual dryness; and we all have dry times, I get that. But that's where it's going over and over and, then, your motivation is not there. I mean, you sit down to write your message or you feel like, "I've got the board meeting, or I've got this meeting, or that kind of thing." And you just don't have the motivation. If you're feeling isolated or isolating yourself, that's a sign of it. And if you see that, "I'm more susceptible now, to temptation, than I used to be."
We're all tempted, but I think we know when we're more susceptible than others. And then just disengaged, where you just hear a pastor say, "I love you guys." And you're just thinking, "Man, I'm saying that, but I don't love any of these people that I'm serving right now."
So it's just when you just change the way you look at things. You're worn down, and you're stressed, you're depressed, you're not sleeping good. Your time with the Lord is not good, it's just dry. And, then, you just, kind of, withdraw and you just don't have that motivation. That you are either there or headed toward burnout and you need to do something about it.
Lindsay: So what do they need to do?
Dr. Kim: Go to a counselor first. I would talk to somebody that's objective, that can help you assess where you really are. Your doctor may be able to do that, too. Your medical doctor, if you have a good relationship with your medical doctor. And then make a plan, and it may mean you need a sabbatical. And if you're in a church, you talk to those who are in leadership and say, "Man, this is where I am, this is where I'm going. I've got to have a sabbatical. I've got to do this different." And if they support you in that, that's great.
If they don't, it may mean that you have to leave and go somewhere else. And I know that's scary, but if you don't, you're going to crash. And there are all kinds of stories. Carey Nieuwhof has a great story of his burnout. Man, and how he handled it in a good way, that now he's got a different type of ministry that's thriving.
So, sometimes, God will use that to say, "As we heal through this burnout, I'm going to take you over here now. I think this is where I want you to be. I know this is where I want you to be now." So I think you've just got to be honest with yourself about it. Most of the guys that I see, and I see much more men than women in burnout, I don't know why. I just thought about that, then, when, I said it. But you've got to be honest with yourself and you just got to realize that, "I am a human being. I am not the Savior, I'm not Superman, any of those things. I'm a human that God's using."
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And if Jesus had to take time to rest, why do we think we don't.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, that's really good. And, also, just to make aware there are Sabbatical coaches. There are people out there who will help you bridge that gap. They can provide education for the other staffers at the church or organization about what Sabbatical is, what it's for. It is not a leave of absence. It's not because you're in trouble.
And, so, there's a lot of helpful resources. If you didn't know that, start looking these things up because it exists. There are great ministries that are Offering pastoral health counseling and mentorship. And that's one thing that really helps Brian recovering from workaholism and learning how to rest. I mean, because if you don't know how, it's really scary to think about trying to break that addiction to work, if you don't know how.
So there are resources out there, start checking it out because there's really good stuff. Check out emotionallyhealthydiscipleship.org. They have incredible resources, I'll put that in the show notes. Because it really does all stem back to this. If your core, if your heart, your soul is not healthy, that's going to spill over into your marriage, your ministry, everything you do. And, so, we have to follow Jesus's model and not try to outwork Him.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I can't think of the name, you may know. I know places where you can go, and you and your spouse can go and live for a period of time and learn the things that you're talking about. Rest, relax, and learn what I need to do to get healthy again and keep from getting in this situation, again. So, you're right, there are a lot of resources out there. And, so, if you're feeling that, don't feel like you're alone. You may want to start with your counselor or your doctor. But look for these other resources, too, and take advantage of all those things.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm, yes. So, Dr. Kim, this has been a really helpful and practical conversation. Do you have any final piece of advice for us today?
Dr. Kim: Well, I think we've talked about a lot. What I want people to hear is that ministry is not easy, and it's really tough in the culture we're in right now. But God always has answers, and if we take care of ourselves, we take care of our marriage, God's going to take care of us.
I don't know exactly what that looks like for everyone, but obedience to what He's called you to, is important. But He didn't put it above your marriage, and He didn't put it above your relationship with Him and, sometimes, people get there. That the church really is first, not God. And, so, I think, we've got to keep things in order and we've got to take care of ourselves. And we need to connect with other people that are in the same boats that we are, so we can paddle together.
Lindsay: Yes, that's so good. It's a great place to wrap up today. As we wrap up, I want to remind you to check out the Sustaining Your Marriage and Ministry course that Dr. Kim referred to earlier, and that you heard about in this episode. You can find that in The Awesome Marriage University, on our website, or in today's show notes. Next week on the podcast, we're going to be sharing advice and encouragement for healing after betrayal, with our special guests, Ryan and Jessica McDaniel. So here's a little snippet of the conversation that they had with Dr. Kim.
Ryan: It was becoming a real problem because it really affected our sexual intimacy in a lot of ways, and, obviously, our emotional intimacy as well. It was this thing that I knew was impacting it, but, again, I wasn't being honest about. So it left Jessica very confused, very hurt, feeling very rejected.
Lindsay: So make sure you tune in next week, if that's a situation that has been part of your marriage. Thanks for joining us today on the podcast. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today.
[00:56:28] < Outro >
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