"Are We There Yet?" With Jeff & Tami Allen | Ep. 573

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

Dr. Kim: Welcome to this week's Awesome Marriage podcast. I'm so excited to have Jeff Allen and his wife Tami join me today. Jeff is in his fifth decade as a working comedian, and you may have seen him on America's Got Talent, Dry Bar Comedy, YouTube, and any of the number of places his comedy has been aired.

If you haven't seen him, you've probably heard the phrase happy wife, happy life, which he coined. His brand new book, Are We There Yet?: My Journey from a Messed-Up to Meaningful Life is out now. I'm thrilled to have Jeff and his wife Tami joining me today. Let's go to the studio right now.

Well, Jeff and Tami, welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. Thanks for taking time out of your schedules to spend time with us, today. I'm excited to talk to you guys. I'm excited to get to know you guys more, and thanks for saying yes.

Jeff: Well, don't get too excited. Just keep your expectations low and we will meet every one of them. Save all that excitement for the end here until we're done.

Dr. Kim: So how did you get into comedy, Jeff? What was your story? I think that's great.

Jeff: I was working for a jewelry company and after setting up a show one night, and somebody said, "Let's go to the Comedy Cottage."

And I said, "What's that?"

And they said, "It's a place where comedians go up and do their thing." And my heart leapt because, probably five or six years earlier, I had seen a couple of comedians and thought, "Boy, that would be neat. How do you do that?" And it's not like they have a table set up on career day, in high school, for stand-up comics. So I had no idea how you did it.

So, anyway, I got hooked. I went in and got hooked, and started on open mic nights, and it was '78, by 1980 the whole country exploded with comedy clubs. There were more clubs than there was talent to fill them. So I got to travel around, make a few bucks, and be bad at something until I learned some craft. So I got really lucky.

Dr. Kim: That's good timing and, obviously, you're talented or you still wouldn't be doing that.

Jeff: Or extremely neurotic.

Dr. Kim: So Jeff and Tami, both, tell us about the early years of your marriage and family life. What were those early years like?

Jeff: Wow.

Tami: We were different people. Totally different people than we are now.

Jeff: Yes, the early years I was traveling. I walked into the marriage. I was traveling 50 weeks a year, and I really had no responsibilities. I had a mattress on a floor, in Los Angeles, in a two-bedroom apartment with a roommate that I never saw. And I met Tami in November and January she came out to L.A. And I asked her to marry me in April and we got married in July. And she gave birth to our son the following January, and we started a life together.

I think she had a better understanding of what that was going to entail, not so much me. I never had a long-term relationship. This was my first one and, hopefully, my last.

So I walked in without any idea of what I was getting into. And about a year into our marriage, I had to quit drinking, and I knew I couldn't do both. I couldn't stay married and keep doing what I was doing. And then that, kind of, is the genesis for the book. That's seven or eight years of trying to be a better husband, and a better father, and what that looked like, and she put up with a lot.

Dr. Kim: So, Tami, what was it like for you? So Jeff's traveling, you guys didn't have a long dating period, didn't have a long engagement period. And then pregnant, and then a baby early in your marriage. What was it all like for you, at that time?

Tami: Well, we were financially, and mentally, and spiritually broke and broke. We were broke in every sense of the word. We didn't have any money. We didn't have faith. We didn't have any solid ground as a foundation for our marriage. So if we could have done it wrong, we definitely did it wrong. Everything was wrong.

Jeff: We cover, in the book, if you look at the list of things that break up marriages. I think we pretty much covered the gambit, from alcohol and drugs.

Dr. Kim: So what kept you together?

Jeff: Pardon?

Dr. Kim: What kept you together?

Tami: What kept us together.

Jeff: Boy, I think, God had a hand in us, whether we acknowledged Him or not. I really believe that. Certainly, when it comes to my career, I tried to get out of it three or four different times, and something would always come up. I mean, I was one day from joining the Air Force, when I was 26 years old.

I realized that it's going to be hard to make a living doing comedy, and decided that I join the military. And then the day before I was scheduled to take the physical, somebody called me and sent me on a job to Ohio, to do comedy, and got me into a chain of comedy clubs.

And it kept me around for three or four more years, and then I decided I was going to quit again. And I got married and we moved to Boston, and I was able to stay in town, in Boston, and make a living.

And, so I believe God's hand was in everything, I really do. And the fact that I traveled, we got a break from each other. I don't know if a lot of marriages could survive how much we were apart. She was alone a lot, and I was so self-centered.

I really was not a good husband by standards. I thought providing was enough. And you realize that, you mature and you get older, you realize how lonely her life must have been, all those weeks and days I was on the road. And she just wanted a husband. She wanted somebody, a partner, a life partner.

So, I think, God's hand was in it. There's no other reason to explain it. Other than, for whatever reason, He seemed to put people in our path right when things were at the bottom, and it gave us another opportunity, a hope. It gave us a little hope that things would be better.

Dr. Kim: That's so cool. I mean, I just hear that story, God just has His hand on us when we don't know He has His hand on us. And, looking back, you can piece that together because sometimes we don't recognize it when we're going through it.

Tami: We didn't recognize it when we were going through it. We didn't recognize it at all, just in hindsight after the fact.

Jeff: Yes, we wrote the book 37 years later.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's in hindsight.

Jeff: Yes, that would have been a different book, if we wrote it eight years into our marriage, it would have been a different book.

Tami: Yes.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Jeff: And, I think, God has given us a different perspective and, also, seeing His divine hand in it. One of the first things I remember when I gave my life to Jesus. I was sitting on the end of the bed the next day and trying to figure out why I felt so good, I'd never felt this good. And I remember thinking, "Oh, I gave my life to Jesus, I wonder if this is what it feels like." And there was this vision in my mind's eye, I saw these markers where Jesus said, "I was always with you. I was here, I was here."

We write about it in the book. These particular parts of my life where I, probably, could have lost my life pretty easily. And there was this just hand of protection and these divine angels, I call them. Again, perspective is important, and being through 30 years later, I think it gives us a different idea of, certainly, the divine hand that was in our marriage, that's for sure.

Dr. Kim: Jeff, you talked about when, a couple of times, that you were going to step away from comedy. Was there ever a time, in those early years, that you or Tami, either one, thought about stepping away from your marriage.

Jeff: Oh, we were 10 minutes from filing divorce papers. We had them notarized and filled out, and she said, "Pull over." We were in Arizona, on I-17, on our way to the courthouse to end the marriage, and she said, "This is wrong."

And I remember saying, "You're out."

She goes, "What do you mean?"

I go, "You deserve better than me." I loved her. I felt I was tainted goods, and my example of what husbands were, were my father and my brother. I thought, "Why wouldn't I repeat the movie?" And I really felt she deserved better than me. And what used to break my heart was thinking of another man raising my sons. 

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes.

Jeff: It would break my heart, and you're watching this thing you value dissipate because of you, I mean, me. And, again, I'd be good for a little bit and then I'd smash things, or break things, or yell and scream and holler.

Tami: Yes, we told the kids that we were going to get a divorce, remember? And they wanted you to live in the backyard.

Jeff: Yes, Ryan, my youngest, wanted me to live in the backyard, and I go, "I'm sure mom wouldn't like that." But, yes, I remember that, "Why can't you live in the backyard?"

And the funniest story was of all the things I screamed, and hollered, and smashed, and broke. When I was telling my sons, on their wedding day, I said, "I want you to know I put things in you that you were too young to remember, but your wife will draw them out. You're going to find yourself acting in a way, as a husband, that's unbecoming of what you think you should be. You can come and talk to me." And he said, like, "What?"

Well, I said, "The yelling and the smashing."

And he says, "Well, the only thing I remember is when mom threw that pitcher of iced tea at you." It was like the one time, in 37 years, that she lost it and threw something, and that's all the kids remembered.

I said, "That's because it was so out of sorts for you." I said, "That's why they remember."

Dr. Kim: Right, that was different with mom doing it.

Jeff: Yes, if I threw something and broke it, it was like, "Oh, that's just dad, again."

Tami: They don't remember any of that.

Jeff: Yes, they don't remember any of it. It's in there, though.

Dr. Kim: Yes, so both of your boys are married, right?

Jeff: Yes.

Dr. Kim: That's so cool.

Jeff: Four grandbabies. 

Dr. Kim: Oh, that's awesome. Grandkids are the best, absolutely. 

Jeff: Yes, they are.

Dr. Kim: I think it's so cool how you said that to the boys, though. Because that's something that a lot of guys don't realize till they're in marriage and something does occur. And then, all of a sudden, they do something they think, "I didn't think I'd ever do this." But maybe they saw it in a parent. And, so, the fact that you just opened that door.

Jeff: Yes.

Tami: The interesting thing is, especially, our oldest son, he served in Iraq, and he's been diagnosed with PTSD and traumatic brain injury stuff. But the difference, at least with him, is that they go to counseling.

They had issues in their marriage, early on, and they went to counseling and they sought out experts. They're able to talk about things. They've grown more, as young people, than Jeff or I ever did in that season of our life, we weren't that enlightened.

Jeff: No.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good.

Tami: And we couldn't actually even afford to go to a counselor.

Jeff: No, when I went to a therapist, I went to one that worked for the state. I always tell people, "Go to one that works for the state, they're not in it for the money." They make $15 an hour. They're going to get you well because they want you out of there, and I write about this in the book.

I went to get the permission to divorce, this was back in 1989, maybe '90, we were in Jersey. So I go to her and I wanted to tell her my tale of woe, have her pat my hand and tell me, "Oh, you poor thing, you need to leave this woman, she is so horrible."

Tami: "That wife of yours is horrible."

Jeff: And I told my tale of woe, and she said, "Hey, look, pal, if you came here looking for a divorce, you came to the wrong counselor." And I said, "No, what are you talking about? I want to stay." But she saw right through it, man, and she was great. She was great. 

Dr. Kim: That's awesome.

Jeff: She was the one that put books into my hands. And I started on the path of trying to figure out what I was, and that's where the title really came from—Are We There Yet? Because my first question to my counselor was, "When am I done?"

She says, "What do you mean?"

I go, "When am I done? I'm not going to come see you the rest of my life."

So she said, "Well, right now, you make some pretty crappy choices. When you can make better choices and be your own counselor, you don't need me anymore." And then she gave me Road Less Traveled, and I started trying to figure out how to counsel myself. And really it wasn't until I gave my life to the Great Counselor, I mean, the Holy Spirit, that things started to make sense.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. So talk about that, Jeff, what led you to that decision? And you and Tami, both, how did you guys get there?

Jeff: Well, I can tell you, I sought an answer to something, I didn't know what I was looking for. But, eventually, it became a God thing with me, "If He exists, then I need to find out." In the Twelve-Step programs, you always hear about higher powers.

And, believe me, if I had gone into my first Twelve-Step meeting and they said, "You need Jesus." I'd have left and never came back. I was pretty angry, bitter, and I really had a hard part in my heart for Christians. My father planted that seed, he told me, when I was 14, to stay away from them, they're bad people.

So, anyway, through self-help Buddhism, one of the passages in the book is I came home one day and told her, I said, "I'm raising the kids in a Buddhist monastery."

And she said, "Over my dead body."

But I had a theory, I was a rage freak. My dad was a rage freak; my brother was a rage freak. I have two sons; I didn't want them to be rage freaks. And I thought, "Buddhist monks are pretty calm." You don't hear about any Buddhist road-rage incidents out there. So, anyway, she talked me out of it in about 90 seconds. She said, "It's not going to happen." And I said, "All right, well, it was a thought." But I was just looking.

And, then, I met a guy, he was a Bible-believing Christian doing comedy. And everything he talked about was from the Bible, and I finally said something about it and I go, "Stop using the Bible. Who actually reads that thing?"

And he said, "I do." And I couldn't get my head around that." And he said, "What's in the Bible you don't think is true?"

I said, "Well, I'm really kind of an atheist, I don't believe the Bible God, God's word. It's a tad archaic."

And he said, "Well then you're not really an atheist, you're a moron."

And I had to ask him how he knew that because he had just met me. And he said, "It's the most influential book in the history of the world, and you can't even crack it open."

So that started our friendship, and he signed me up for some tapes coming out of Denton Bible, Tom Nelson's church. And that's how I eventually opened up the tapes, it was about a year into our friendship. And Ecclesiastes, I think there's a whole chapter in the book, in Ecclesiastes, the influence. I mean, I don't know if another book in the Bible would have spoken to me, at that point in my life, like that book. 

When I heard "Meaningless, all in life is meaningless." That was such a deep, profound, truth, that was my conclusions. It didn't matter, nothing mattered. And the verse, "The eyes never get enough of seeing, the ears never get enough of hearing."

This was 3000 years ago, and I'm looking at my video library, my audio library, and I'm thinking, "He is right." And then Pascal has described it as a God-shaped hole so that was the beginning. And I finally just came to the conclusion, if Jesus is not who He claimed to be, then Solomon was right in Ecclesiastes, suicide. I got nowhere else to go, and I fell on my knees and said, "I'm yours."

Dr. Kim: Wow.

Jeff: To put it in perspective, that'd be like driving a '76 Yugo into a Lamborghini dealership and telling them, "I'm willing to sacrifice and trade we even up." And Tami has a different story.

Dr. Kim: Yes, Tami, what was going on in your life, at that time?

Jeff: Well, she was raised by people from the church that were not kind to her.

Tami: Oh, yes, my parents, my father was a hypocrite. He was a deacon in church and served the church. Did all different kinds of things, and then would come home and behave much differently.

Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm, so what was your journey, then, to Christ?

Tami: Well, I was a church attender my whole young adult life, and that's what we just did. Went to church, went to Sunday school. I grew up at Disciples of Christ, Northeastern Ohio. Then seeing the behavior of my parents and some of the people around me, I didn't think church or God had anything for me. It wasn't something that I wanted to do. Then through Jeff's journey and his gradual change, I followed him.

Jeff: Yes, and then she, I think, her profound moment was during the Gaither.

Tami: Yes.

Jeff: Tell them about that.

Tami: Well, I was diagnosed with cancer, I had breast cancer. We were living here in Tennessee, and I had gone through treatment. We went to Indianapolis, I think, and was at a homecoming videotaping and I just stayed in the back. I was bald and thin, and just not very-

Jeff: Healthy.

Tami: ...no. And one of the... you should tell the story.

Jeff: Well, Bill had always told the artists during the taping, as we're taping, "So anything on your heart or mind, don't be afraid to share it." So, anyway, I finished my comedy set and I started to leave and I stopped and thought, "You know what?" And I started talking about her cancer. And after a couple of minutes, I think it was Vestal Goodman who stood up. Well, I think it was.

Tami: And Dottie Rambo, too.

Jeff: And Dottie Rambo, and she said, "Is Tami here?"

And I said, "Well, she's in the back of the thing here."

"Well, bring her out."

So, anyway, she walks out. She's bald from chemo, she's really sick, I mean, she's in the middle of treatment. And they said, "Would you mind if we laid hands on you and prayed?"

Tami: Yes, it was profound.

Jeff: Yes, we got back to the room and-

Tami: Jesus was there.

Jeff: Yes, she said to me, "I felt His presence, and I know this isn't going to be fatal." Anyway, that was 23 years ago, I guess.

Tami: Yes, 23.

Jeff: But those people were so wonderful and it was just a perfect season of our lives. If you have to go through something like that. It was good to be around all those people, and seeing God work in their lives as well as our life. It was really good, to be young believers and be around that was amazing.

Dr. Kim: That's such a powerful story.

Tami: Yes, it makes me emotional every time I think about it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, so you've been cancer free for a long time, then, Tami?

Tami: Uh-huh, yes.

Dr. Kim: That's so awesome.

Tami: Yes, 23 years. 

Jeff: Yes, the problem is she's not Jeff free.

Dr. Kim: They didn't pray, "Get him away from her?"

Jeff: No, I'm not going anywhere. 

Dr. Kim: Well, it's interesting, too, just how God stopped you, as you were leaving the stage. And had you go back and tell that story and just His hand was all over that. And then you got to see God's people come around you, in a powerful way. I mean that was-

Jeff: Yes, understand, we're repressed northern Christians. When we get excited, our hand gets about shoulder height, and we just wave it to the heavens. That's when we're moving. So for her to say, "I felt his presence." It's an odd thing to say for us.

Tami: It was.

Jeff: It was, and I question, sometimes, when I say "I think God's telling me something." Because it's usually to my benefit-

Tami: You always used to say, "I wish He should speak with an accent."

Jeff: Yes, I used to say, "I wish He'd spoke to me in a Spanish accent, and I'd know it was Him."

Tami: It's none of your other voices in your head.

Jeff: Yes, all the other voices I have that are competing for space in my skull. I would know that's the Holy, step aside, the Holy Spirit wants to speak, "Hola, Jeff."

[00:23:03] < Music >

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[00:24:23] < Music >

Dr. Kim: So what's your marriage been like since both of you made that change? And certainly God's healing power and all those things. What's happened over the 23 years since that time?

Tami: Well, it wasn't like magic that our marriage was instantly healed, it was a process. But I think that there was a point where we made a covenant. You make a covenant when you get married, but we said it aloud to each other that divorce was no longer an option. No matter what, divorce was not an option. And, I think, from that day forward, we just looked at things differently. There was no get out token. That was just something that we never considered after that.

Jeff: Yes, and I think, for me, and I'm not going to speak for Tami. But, for me, having a divine foundation on what a husband is supposed to do or be. It's interesting, our church, we're doing Ephesians now. They're on week 17 of the Book of Ephesians, and last week was all about "Wives submit to your husbands." And really the core of what my role as a husband is, and it was eye opening.

I'm not there by any stretch. I don't know if we ever really get there. But it's a goal and an understanding that this is the Word of God, and this is what's expected of you. And Christ gave us the example by sacrificing His life for all of us. And grace and forgiveness just became a little easier, with the understanding of I'm to be as graceful and forgiving as He was with me.

Tami: Yes, that's hard, sometimes.

Jeff: It's hard, it's difficult. Sometimes, it goes against our nature, and that's what Paul talks about. And it's constantly trying to kill off your nature and get a divine nature. So I think that was a big help, and then God opened doors in my career.

So the financial stress dissipated, eventually. But we went through some hard times. In the old days, before Christ, the money thing would drive me. It gave me an excuse to be who I really was, I was angry and bitter. Of course I'm angry and bitter, look at me I have no money and I can't take care of anything [Inaudible 00:27:01]

Tami: But, then, there was like this blind faith after 9/11 and you said, "That's it, no more comedy clubs." The night of the towers coming down, the club owner in Las Vegas insisted that Jeff work.

Dr. Kim: Oh, wow.

Tami: Yes, your eyes bug out, they go-

Jeff: Yes, then, they tell you, "Don't mention that we were attacked today." And she's at home scared, like all of us were, we had no idea what this meant.

Tami: No.

Jeff: And I can't get out of Vegas, and I called my manager and I said, "I got to find another place to do what I do." And we put it out that we were going to work churches, and I did one in a year. I did one church, in an entire year. Because when your resume is casinos and nightclubs, pastors are a tad hesitant to give you the pulpit for 45 minutes.

And it was Gaither, really Bill Gaither, picking me up and bringing me into his family that opened the doors. Michigan kept me alive. I got four or five pairs of wooden Dutch shoes from Holland, Michigan. Michigan kept us alive. I started doing outreach at the churches, sharing my story and our story, which is really what the basis of the book is. And, again, I really didn't worry about money. I really took the verse to heart, Jesus said, "Don't worry."

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Jeff: And everything we saw just reinforced that. I mean, the time you came home, she came home, we write about this in the book. She came home with a $5,000 check from the road. She would show dogs. And I said, "Where did that come from?"

She said one of her wealthy client friends came to her and said they wanted to start a corporation looking for the next Boxer, that's what she showed, Boxers, winner at Westminster Dog Show. And they charged her to find the Boxer and made her head of the LLC and gave her five grand, and that paid our bills for six weeks.

I have no idea, to this day, they've never asked for it back. They've never asked where the dog is. It was like manna from heaven, it really was. And that just reinforced, "Don't worry." And I really haven't in 26 years now, since walking with Jesus.

Dr. Kim: Wow, that's so powerful.

Jeff: I also want to get this out real quick. The day after the book was accepted by the publisher, and complete, and everything, we got into a huge fight in the kitchen, huge. And I came out of the bedroom and go, "Oh, so now I'm supposed to go around the country and tell everybody how wonderful this marriage is?"

And that little voice, the devil's still there, man, and he's hounding me. Just going, "You're a hypocrite. Look at you, you're a hypocrite. What would your Christian friends think of you now? You can't do this. You can't go out there." And it was like a constant barrage between my ears. And I walk away and you get on your knees, and you go, "Get rid of it, take it. Whatever this demon is, get him out of me, I can't function."

But that was, again, I don't believe in coincidences. For a second, your guard goes down and your nature comes out, and you realize, "I got a lot of work to do still. I really got a lot of work to do." And that's what I'm hoping this book does, is just get people to realize there's work to do inside-

Tami: The book is in seven easy steps to a better marriage. Now, one time we went and did a television show, and the preacher, he just told us that we needed to pray harder. And that's not, necessarily, the answer either. It's just about doing the hard work-

Jeff: And taking divorce off the table, I think that was huge. When you look at it going, "This is it. It's not an option." So the only option is to get better and treat each other with more respect, and love, and patience, and grace, and then integrity.

Tami: Yes, we had gone on such a ride in those early years. Where it got to the point where we didn't care anymore, and it was just complete and total apathy. I could care less what he did, or what I did, or anything.

Jeff: And that was the worst. I always say if you're in a marriage that's full of acrimony, wait till you get to apathy. I mean, God never intended this bond between a man and woman to be apathetic. I'm sure there's seasons of that, but for gosh sakes-

Tami: Yes, but it was like in the car when I said, "Let's turn around." And it was almost like what it says in the Bible about one flesh, and it felt like there was an actual ripping. And you think about what is next after the divorce and what your life is going to look like.

And you realize that this person that you loved, passionately, at one point was no longer going to be part of my life or our life, and it was difficult. And, like I said, it felt like a tearing, a ripping, and I just knew that it was wrong.

Jeff: Yes, and that, again, helps reinforce the truth of the Bible. A couple of years later, we start studying the Bible, and you read that verse, "Man will take a woman and together they'll become one flesh." I mean, I always tell audiences, whether you believe that to be the divine word of the Creator, or you believe it to be a metaphor, it's an apropos metaphor. You stand in God's house and you say to God, "I want to make a covenant with this woman."

And He says, "Okay, I'm going to hold you to that and you're going to become one. She hurts, you're hurt. She is joy, you're full of joy." And it really changes, and that's what Ephesians talks about. We were talking, on last Sunday, was that she is an embodiment of what I give her. What I pour into her as a husband and the same comes back, I mean, there's this mutual.

It's interesting, there's a marriage thing we did once, Love and Respect, and she wants love, I want respect. And that resonated with me because that's true. I've never been more hurt than when I felt disrespected. But then, to me, if your spouse isn't loving and your spouse isn't respectful, that's a time for introspection.

Tami: Instead of blame.

Jeff: Instead of blame, "What am I doing that causes this?" I've always said Tami was kind of a counterpuncher, a mirror of me. I mean, when I'm pouring in, she's pouring right back. And if I'm snotty and sarcastic, it comes, it's a reflection of what I am as a man and a husband. And, again, it's interesting, I used to say to people, "Jesus said, 'Treat your neighbor as you treat yourself. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'"

Well, that's fine, unless you abhor yourself. A lot of times we do treat people the way we, nobody lies to me more than me. Nobody, I wouldn't have a friend like me. 

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Jeff: I've made so many promises to myself that I was going to do this and not do that or whatever, and you break them. It's kind of a double-edged sword, but I think we do reflect our inner lives to those closest to us. And I think that the book, hopefully, is a call for people to go inside and realize that your circumstances don't define you.

There's nothing in your life, right now, that can't be changed. And that's the problem with putting your faith in the external and not in God, the divine, that never changes. But I think it's a constant pulling of our natures against what He wants for us.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Tami: Neither one of us had really great examples growing up, what healthy marriages looked like. My only examples were what you saw on television, and that's so not like-

Jeff: Ward and June Cleaver aren't real.

Dr. Kim: No. Jeff, I want go back because I know people listen that struggle with addictions, and you alluded to it earlier, and then just a minute ago. But what was that like, of getting clean from the drugs and alcohol? What was that process like? 

Jeff: Scary on a lot of levels. It was interesting, I was a year and a half into sobriety, and I used those rooms just to complain about her. I would go in every day, raise my hand, and just start complaining about everything. And about a year and a half in, some little old lady walked over to me and poked me in the belly.

She was probably just past my navel in height, probably 4'7", and she says, "Young man, I've been listening to you for quite a while, and maybe the problem in your life is not your wife. Maybe you're the problem." And I wanted to pound her little head into her chest cavity, but I had enough sobriety in me.

But driving home, again, I learned to look at those as seeds that God puts in our paths, these little things. And that began the inner search, if God is there, because I heard people talk about Him, then, I'll figure that out. But that's really what it was, she'll tell you.

One of my favorite stories, in the book, I talk about staring at the gerbil and watching it get sticks, and move them around, and realizing that that's our human existence. We buy things, that's sticks, we buy them, they wear out, we take them to the landfill. We go to Vegas or Disney World with the kids. That's the wheel that the gerbil spins, and it was really a profound thing for me. I mean, it was like, "Holy cow, if this is life, then I'm gone."

And she said, "You've been gone for a while." This isn't anything new, but I couldn't get out of my own head, for years. Again, I write about it because I want people to realize that there's an answer. The arc of the story is that when you say to God and Jesus, "I'm yours." Then a new counselor comes, a new guide, inside you, and to learn to listen to that. Yes, I still hate conflict.

Tami: Yes.

Jeff: I still get fight or flight. Conflict resolution in my home, growing up, was if you spoke back, you got tossed against the wall. So you learn not to speak back. You learn to leave the situation and get out of it. In a marriage, you can't get out of it, you're there, it's a process.

Tami: Well, you can get out of it, you said you were checked out. And there were times that you needed to be just shook. We're trying to raise kids here, and put groceries on the table to eat and get kids back and forth to school and not make them damaged little people. And he was there physically, but he wasn't there mentally or emotionally. And you talk about the changes, I wish we could do it all over again, if that makes sense. 

Jeff: Well, to give you an example of the change, we have an open area in our home. Everything is opened up. Kitchen, living room, everything. When it was being built, I told her, "You're building a bowling alley."

So we couldn't eat in the same room with the grandkids. And, anyway, I was reading a book, and all four of them were running laps around the house. Screaming, and hollering, and laughing, and Tami walked over and gave me a hug.

And she goes, "Wow, this would have never happened with our children." I would have put a stop to it. And it's one of my greatest regrets is that I think of my boys when they were little boys, and so full of life and so full of fun and stuff. And I just kept telling, "Be quiet."

So, anyway, I can't take it back. I've honored them by explaining it to them. And one of the reasons I wanted to write the book was for them and for my grandkids, to let them know that this is what we went through in your early years. You're too young to remember all this, and we made it. We stuck it out. 

So I want you to stick it out in your marriages but make it good. Don't just stick it out because it's a drudgery. But if it's drudgery, find out why and make some changes. And I pose five questions at the end of the book—what defines you?

Tami: That's a hard question.

Jeff: It is. If it's the next job, or the next house, or the next relationship, or whatever, your life will be constantly in flux. What do you value?

Where do your values come from? To me, when I got married I, initially, thought it was stuff. I wanted to value stuff but now it's honor and integrity.

Tami: But that's kind of what our country, our world, is so material, at this point. Where the definition or are you defined by the material things? And it can't be.

Jeff: Well, it was interesting, when I was broke and bankrupt, I met this guy on the road, I told you about, and he was worth millions. And he said to me, "You don't want a lot of money."

And I go, "What do you mean?"

And he goes, "You can't handle what little you have. A lot would be a burden for you."

And he said, to begin the conversation, he says, "You can't begin to enjoy the creation till you have a relationship with the one who created it because that keeps everything in perspective. And if you're lying in bed miserable because you don't have the right car, or the right wife, or the right whatever, the next one is not going to be any better either."

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Jeff: What defines you?

What's your value?

What voices do you listen to?

Where do you get guidance from? Nobody does life alone, nobody. You need to be in community with people. Then ask yourself, what community are you in?

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Jeff: So what voices do you listen to? Where do you get your information from? I ask myself that all the time. Because that little voice is still there, "You're a piece of garbage." But on a good day, I'll stop and go, "What's your source of information? Who's telling you that I'm a piece of garbage?" Because that's not Jesus. It's certainly not the Holy Spirit, I know that.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Jeff: And there are two more.

Dr. Kim: No, that's powerful. And I think, too, what you were saying, Tami, about wish you could do things over. But I think as a counselor and I spend time with couples, and to see that when we make those changes, our kids notice those changes. So your kids experienced one thing, and then they see you guys change. And that's how God redeems some of those things that we wish we could go back and change, by what you're seeing in your boys now, and in your grandkids and things like that.

Jeff: And they're really good fathers and I'm so proud of them. I really am. They're in areas that I know I lacked, they spend time with their kids. Because that's the one thing, I'll have young fathers come to me, all the time, and say, "Do you have one piece of advice?"

I go, "You have one finite thing in life, and that's time." And your kids know, they understand you go to work. But when you come home, and if all you got is two hours, all you got is an hour. And you go in and you turn on the TV and you ignore them, that's what does their heart damage.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Jeff: It's that hour you're at home and just take some time and let them know that they're of value.

Tami: Our kids used to think that dad worked at the airport.

Jeff: Yes.

Dr. Kim: That's funny. Gosh, there's so many good things that you guys have talked about, today. So what about the listener, the people that are watching today, that would say their life is messed up. What would you say to them?

Tami: Well, like I said earlier, our book is not like magic, and if you do those steps, it will instantly cure. But what I would tell the women is there's hope. It's not the end, there's hope.

Jeff: And change isn't easy. But the definition of insanity is if you keep doing the same things over and over again. And, again, I don't know of everybody's situations. I have people come to me after shows and go, "I'm married to a guy like you. What do I do?"

And I go, "I don't know." If there's not a willingness to change, I had a willingness to change. I'll give myself a pat on the back for that.

Tami: Well, they don't say they're married to a guy like you, "I'm married to a guy like you used to be."

Jeff: Used to be.

Tami: Yes, not like you.

Jeff: Yes, that guy you talk about; angry, bitter, jaded, cynical, foul mouth. Again, the book, I hope, is to inspire and give hope, too. The last half of the book is where we're at today and where our hope lies is in Jesus, honestly. And, again, I know to the skeptic and to the atheist, it sounds so trite. But believe me you can't begin to enjoy life if you don't know the source of life.

Tami: Right, and it can't happen just magically, by you sitting in your house. It doesn't work like that. You have to go out into the community, and you have to become part of it and become engaged.

Jeff: Become the person you want to be. Again, you want to be loved, be loving. I had a sponsor, once, give me trash bags. And I said, "What are these?"

And he said, "When you find yourself white knuckling and you want to drink, go out and pick up trash."

And I go, "Why would I do that?" 

And he goes, "It gets you out of your own head."

And I go, "What are you talking about? I'm not picking up trash."

And he said, "And here is the hard part. While you're picking up trash, don't let anybody see you because your pride will kick in. And you'll start thinking that that's what it's about, it's about feeling good about yourself, and it's not. It's doing something for somebody else." And I used to say if you take five minutes of a day, most of us that are miserable are self-centered, and I could tell you I was.

And I love the saying, "There's no smaller package than a man wrapped up in himself." And serving others is a way to get out of whatever situation you're in, and God set it up as a paradox. It's not normal when you're miserable to think of somebody else and, "What can I do to ease the suffering of somebody else?"

But in the process of doing that, it gets you out of your head, out of your situation, it gets you out of the isolation. And, obviously, a church community, and find one that-

Tami: Yes, we went to megachurches for 20-some years. And we would stand in front of the church doors, after church, as people are filing past, and we realized we didn't know anybody's names.

Jeff: After ten years, "I said, point out somebody we know."

Tami: Yes, but we have found a church, a new church now. We're involved in a small group now, and we've never done that before. They meet in our house, and there's intimacy by bearing your soul to other couples. And it's really funny because we've had some hard days, and then have a small group that night and people can tell that there's walls up somehow.

But we're able to openly admit and then the next week, another couple will go, "We're just really struggling. I can't stand looking at him right now, but we're here, we love each other, and we're going to proceed." But it's nice that we can share and have that intimacy-

Jeff: Well, and it shatters the biggest illusion that, certainly, I think, [Inaudible 00:49:21] went on at the church is that everybody else is perfect and you're not. And once you get that illusion shattered, then, you can begin to walk with other believers and you share-

Tami: And openly admit your flaws and your shortcomings, and realize that other people are struggling. It's so easy to look at other couples and think that there's just perfection. "My kid is 4.0." The bumper sticker adages and nobody is there, nobody is that perfect.

Jeff: Yes, and our pastor, I love him, he's in his 30s. And he came into the faith like I did, as a recovering addict. And 15 years later, 20 years later, he's a senior pastor and he's always sharing, and he goes, "Look, this is for me as much as it is for you. We're still trying to figure it out."

Dr. Kim: Well, I know, when I counsel people and they're in a church where the pastor is not transparent and honest. I tell them, "You might want to, at least, look around for something else." Because it trickles down, and if your pastor is willing to be transparent and honest, it opens the door for the rest of us to be. And if he's not, it makes that door harder to open. So he sounds like a great guy.

Jeff: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: Last question; so what are each of you loving about your marriage today?

Jeff: What I fell in love with her, initially, was her laugh and her joy. She still has the best laugh of anybody I've ever heard. I like the fact that we can speak more honestly to each other. We're not 100%, there are still trigger points. But, yes, I think that I enjoy being in the room with her. I enjoy being in the car with her and I'm looking forward. We used to, remember when we would see the Gaither people coming in.

Tami: Yes, the old people.

Jeff: Yes, all the old couples. I was 40 years old when I started with Gaither. So, all of a sudden, we'd see these old couples coming in and going, "Do you think we'll make it?"

Tami: We want to be those old people.

Jeff: We do. We want be the cranky old, "Hey, be quiet."

Tami: Yes, but just holding each other up.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. Tami, what about you?

Tami: I get to spend more time with him, that's what I'm liking. Where before he was absent, physically and emotionally, absent all the time. He would go, when he worked it would be six days there and one day home, and then turn around and do it all over again the next week. And it wasn't, by any definition, what somebody would call as a conventional marriage. But what we have now is totally different and he is present emotionally. And he's not gone anywhere near as much as he used to be, so that's a good thing.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, this is awesome, guys. The book is Are We There Yet?: My Journey from a Messed-Up to Meaningful Life. It is out, you can get it everywhere. Jeff and Tami, thank you so much for spending time with us, it's been a blessing, and thanks a lot.

Tami: Thank you.

Jeff: Thank you, man.

[00:53:10] < Outro >

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