How Embracing Brokenness Brings the Life God Has For Us With Toni Collier | Ep. 575

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationships.

Dr. Kim: Well, welcome to this week's Awesome Marriage Podcast. I'm so glad to have you guys here, and I'm so excited to have Toni Collier join us today. Toni is a speaker. She's the host of the Still Coloring podcast. She's the founder of a women's organization of the same name. She's author of Brave Enough to Be Broken, and her new children's book Broken Crayons Still Color is out now.

I got to know Toni and follow her, as she began to do some YouVersion verse of the days. I just think she is awesome and I am so excited for you guys to get to know her, to spend time with her, and this is going to be an amazing podcast, as we talk about brokenness. 

Hey, Toni, thank you so much for being on The Awesome Marriage Podcast. I'm excited to have you. I've watched you and followed you, and I'm so glad to meet you and have you here to share with us, today.

Toni: I know. I'm so excited. The topic is great, the show is great, and I'm just really honored to be on. It's going to be a good combo, I'm excited.

Dr. Kim: It's so much fun, now, let's jump right into this whole brokenness idea. Because two of your books deal with that idea of brokenness. So how do you define that? How do you define brokenness? Where do we start?

Toni: Man, it's interesting because I feel like I grew up not wanting that title. I was like, "No, I'm not broken." It came as this demeaning word that described people that were flawed, and weak, et cetera. And the more and more I actually chased after Jesus and realized that there was power and strength in my brokenness, I embraced this term a little bit more. And what it really is, in layman's terms, is it's about our imperfection.

Our brokenness isn't about how God's created us. It's about what God created and then man destroyed. We are imperfect. We're wired for struggle. We have temptations. We are not Jesus. We have not come into full completion of our sanctification and our righteousness. And, so, we are broken. We're imperfect. We do things wrong. And until we get replanted back into Eden, we're going to be that way. And I think the closer we get to accepting that, the closer we get to healing that.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Toni: And, so, that's how I'm looking at broken these days.

Dr. Kim: You mentioned you didn't want to be labeled that way. What keeps us from identifying with that? Because we're all there, and Jesus tells us we're there.

Toni: Yes, I think it's a few things. I think that one, society tells us that we have to be perfect to be used. You've got to be the fastest, you've got to be the smallest. You've got to be the smartest. You've got to have the best aesthetic on your Instagram to get followers, and comments, and likes. 

So because the world craves perfection; and most of us are just longing for belonging, and connection, and withness, then we chase after that too. We're like, "Okay, I got to live up to that." And that's where we get the people pleasing, and the insecurity, and then pride bubbles up, in some ways. And really what's happening is that we're trying to please the world more than we're trying to connect with God.

And, so, the more we please the world, the more, I think, we'll believe that we have to be perfect to be used. When all throughout the Bible, God is using the most broken, the most vulnerable, to do His great works. So it's upside down.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, and the enemy would love for us to keep jumping through those hoops over, and over.

Toni: Oh, yes. I mean, here's the deal, the enemy is not focused, necessarily, on destroying us for destruction's sake. He wants to destroy us to keep us from the withness of God. And because our God cannot, I mean, He's, literally, not able to co-exist with sin. He can't get close to us with it on us. And if the enemy can distract us by making idols out of humanity seem more shiny than true redemption. He will because it destroys our connection with God.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and that's where He wants us to keep at. I read a quote, and I cannot remember who it was, yesterday. But she said something like, "I want every morning when my feet hit the floor, and when I get out of bed, for the enemy to go, 'Uh-oh, here she comes again.'" And I thought, "That is so good." I mean, if we're in tune with the Lord, that's going to happen, too, absolutely. I love that.

Toni: That's so good.

Dr. Kim: So you've written about brokenness a couple of times. Why was it something that you really wanted to write about? What was the background?

Toni: Well, in my journey, I've got so much in my past. From sexual trauma, to drug addiction, to divorce, et cetera. And I remember getting to a point in my life, at about 24, where I said, "Well, I guess, that's it for the whole Jesus thing. I have just been through too much. I've done too much. Pain has just overtaken all of my hope. I am hopeless at this point."

And what's crazy is that in that moment when I was like, "Well, I'm just completely broken and I'm imperfect, and God's not going to use me." Is when God showed up the most.

I think He was waiting on me to be like, "I can't do this without you, God." Because He's not a forceful God. He's not wedging His way into controlling our life. It's not within His character. Instead, He's like the player on the sidelines of our life saying, "Put me in, coach. I've got some power for your weakness. I've got some strength for your brokenness." And when I realized that, and my whole life radically changed.

When you experience hope and redemption, you don't want to stay quiet about it. When you actually experience the hand of God on your life, you're like, "Everyone needs this." It's like the new drink at Starbucks. I'm like, "I'm telling everybody about the Pumpkin Spice Latte with Cold Foam on Top." And that was me. I'm like, "I got to tell them." Well, there's a whole world out there that's thinking that their brokenness discounts them.

When, actually, as Paul said, the Apostle Paul said, in 2 Corinthians 12:9, that actually when we surrender our weakness. When we give it over to God, it is when His power is actually activated. It was like a little secret that I just wanted everyone to know.

And, so, I wrote this book, Brave Enough to be Broken, on how to press into pain. Because that's what it required for me, surrendering, pressing into pain, and how to actually get healing and hope from that. And, then, I'm doing the same thing for kids now with a kids book called Broken Crayons Still Color. Because I'm like it would be great if we can catch the kids a little early.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Toni: If we can just tell them now, that their brokenness doesn't discount them. I think they'd be set up pretty well, and that's my passion.

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, and, what you went through, I think, we all believe that lie so much that we are too broken, that we've experienced this. And, then, all through the Bible, we see broken people, and I don't know why sometimes we don't identify as much with that. Because if you really look at it, you wouldn't, probably, hire a lot of the people that God used, in the beginning. You're like, "No, I don't want him or her."

Toni: Yes, absolutely. And it's funny, too, because even after He hired them, they still do crazy stuff. We even see it in the Old Testament, like with Jonah, who's like, "I'm not going to tell them, people, I'm sorry." They immediately know, like, "I love you, Lord, but it's just going to take a real crazy thing to get me to go tell these other people about you."

And He's like, "Well, you're going to get swallowed by a whale."

And he's like, "Still not enough."

They keep on making mistakes because the misconception is, well, they're followers of Jesus. They are representatives of God; they have to be perfect. No, don't get it twisted. It is the reason why we place pastors on pedestals, they shouldn't have been on in the first place. Because we think that somehow when we say yes to Jesus, it's just so great.

We're like little Teletubbies in Care Bear land. And it's like, "No, we're not." We're still imperfect, and we're broken, and we're doing the best that we can.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. So let's move into the kids book, a little bit. Because when I first heard that Broken Crayons Still Color, it just was such a visual picture.

Toni: I know.

Dr. Kim: Tell us what moved you to write that? You've said a little bit about that, and what you hope it will do for kids.

Toni: Sure. I don't talk about this a lot publicly, and I talk about it with discretion. But my daughter has had just tons of different challenges in school, with behavior and other things. And, I mean, obviously, she walked through a divorce with me. She had to rebuild her life with me, as I was rebuilding ours. It was just a really hard journey for her.

And, so, school has been hard and social life has been hard for her, and we've done all the things. And I remember walking through that journey with, kind of, now, this secret, this secret that our brokenness doesn't discount us. And it was like my leg-up in parenting and helping my daughter process through some of her challenges.

And we used to do all sorts of things; behavior charts, and exercises, like smell the flowers and blow the candles, to help with breathing, little things. And it dawned on me, after I released my first book for adults, that it may be good for us to start a little younger. So that kids can have this foundation of knowing that their big feelings, and the things that they go through, and their anger, and their sadness is not something that God's afraid of.

It's actually something He deeply wants to hold with them, and He wants them to even surrender it to Him. But not only that, if you're the weird kid in class, or the kid that has untraditional learning, or the kid that's got a diagnosis. God still loves you the same, and He's so with you. And, so, this kids' book is all about that. It's letting kids know that even in the midst of their brokenness, like a crayon, they can still create something so deeply beautiful with God.

Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good. Because so many kids, well, actually, I was talking to someone yesterday, and they were just talking about how a couple of kids that they know, that they're not allowed to show their feelings at home. And, so, they have to stuff all this in, and, probably, because the parents have never really figured out how to process their feelings themselves-

Toni: For themselves.

Dr. Kim: So they don't know what to do with the kids. And then peers; peers can be mean with the kids when you're growing up. So I think that's so important for kids to see that. At least to have that to hang on to, no matter what situation they're going through right now. And to know that God loves them and cares for them, and has a plan for them because some of them just feel so lost.

Toni: Oh, my goodness. Well, I mean, we've seen suicide rates go up. I mean, these poor children are growing up in a world that wants to shape them; and it's leading to destruction, and not freedom and beauty. And I'm just really excited because even the people that have gotten the book, so far, for their kids, they're just like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad to have language to speak over my children."

Because they are going back to school, and the little girl in the book, Avery, she's going to school, she's nervous. She's got all these big feelings, and she's breaking things, and it's just really difficult. And there's just these sentences in the book that just bring so much life and redemption to her.

And I'm just really prayerful that as parents read this kids' book to their children, maybe, even something on the inside of their parents would start to heal. We're reading these books to our littles and we're like, "Oh, gosh, I needed to hear that for myself, as we re-parent ourselves." So it's beautiful.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that really is, because so many kids feel like they've got to fit into a certain mold. And even the ones that don't have, big thing is wrong, but they're just a little different. Maybe they'd rather sit and read, at recess, than go beat the ball or things like that. And they think, "Well, if I'm going to be liked, I've got to fit into this mold." And to be able to celebrate their differences, and I know that's hard, as kids. I know it's hard growing up. I know it's hard for me, I got one granddaughter in middle school, right now, and it is hard. It is so hard to go through those things, and to face that every day.

Toni: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So what would you say to a child, that just talks to you and said, "Hey, I just don't feel like I'm loved or accepted, and I just don't feel like I fit in anywhere."

Toni: Yes, it's so interesting because my daughter, I remember her coming home from school one day, and we were in the process of trying to figure out if we were going to keep her in school or maybe do a cyber or a virtual program that would just be more safe for her.

And I remember her coming home, and we're just processing through a really hard moment of her day. And she just said, "I just wish I was like the other kids. Mom, I just wish that I didn't have these things that I had to battle with, and I want to be like everyone else." And it was almost like I was sitting down with little Toni, when she was eight years old. And it was like this moment where I was like, "I know this feeling." And, for those listening and watching this, I think, we've all felt that way. Like, "If I could just be faster."

"If I could just be stronger."

"If I could just not have this thorn in my side."

"If I could just... I just want to be like everyone else." And I looked my daughter in the eye, and I would look any kid in the eye right now, and I said, "Gosh, I would be so sad if you were just like everyone else because I love and like you. And we're not going to dismiss the way that you feel right now. I understand how it feels to want to belong, to want to be the same and not different, because it feels like our difference discounts us. I know how that feels, and I want to invite you to maybe think about feeling some other things, like gratitude."

I love the way, my daughter, she's like a little artist, she loves to color so much. And I just told her, I said, "One of the things that is so unique about you is that you're a great artist, and I love that about you, and I hope that never changes. Isn't that something that we can be super grateful for, that God made you an incredible artist? Oh, my goodness, I love the Dylan that God made." And that's what I just want to tell everyone because it's true about all of us, truly.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and with kids, especially, you get such a narrow focus. And for you to help them see, when you talk to her about how you love her art. So you can see a bigger picture because she may not get affirmed for that right now. 

Toni: No.

Dr. Kim: Maybe later, but not right now, probably, at school. By you, absolutely. But for her to know that, "God, have given me gifts that He can use." That's really good. So we've talked about the kids with their big feelings. How does this help them deal with that? And you've hinted at it, but it does make a difference. Why does that make such a difference for them?

Toni: Yes, so I'm really excited because the kids' book is written in a way that talks about feelings from the perspective of these little box of crayons. And, so, each crayon has a color, obviously, and then also a name and a feeling and they start to press into anger, and sadness, and anxiousness. There's even a crayon, in the book, that has a little stutter, and they're just so anxious. And then they teach Avery, the little girl in the book, how to process big emotions.

So one of the things that we did with Dylan growing up is that we had flowers and candles in every room. So when she had a really big moment with her feelings. We would grab some flowers and we'd grab a candle, and we'd light it, and we have her smell the flowers. Which is just deep breaths; breathing in through the nose and then blowing the candles out and releasing those big feelings. And I can't even tell you how many candles I had to light and blow out, and light and blow out. And that's just one of the different strategies that are in the book.

But also in the book is a feelings wheel, and it's color coded by the feelings. So that when your little is feeling overwhelmed. Instead of naming the feeling because they may not be there yet, they can name the color that they are feeling. 

Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good.

Toni: And we did that with our daughter Dylan. At school, we had such an incredible team, where they had little color cards on her desk. And, so, when she was feeling a little yellow, or orange, or red. Red was like, "Hey, we need to transition out of class." She would be able to point to that color when she didn't have the words to speak. And, so, that's what the book is, and that's how it's walking littles through how to process some of these really big emotions.

Dr. Kim: I think it's so good, and it helps them learn how to deal with the real emotion. Because a lot of it it's just, "Okay, I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm mad." And there's so much that goes past that, and we tend to jump on anger because we feel safer there so much. I mean, if I'm angry at somebody, then, I can push them off some.

Toni: Yes, I can ignore them, I can yell, and scream. I can do all the things versus really feel what it is that's triggering that anger, that's so good.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that chart because, I think, that really helps the kids get into what that feeling really is and then they can deal with it. Then they can have somebody talk them through that, or pray about it, or have a moment. Yes, that's so good.

Toni: Yes.

Dr. Kim: So what about brokenness affecting our relationship with God, and then with other people?

Toni: I think it is the way that we hold brokenness that impacts our relationship with God. Again, when we hold our brokenness in our silos, and we don't name it, then, it becomes really big. I think that the common misconception is that we can hide it all, and we can numb it, and it's fine. We are human and we will leak, it will come out in some way somehow. Whether it is through excessive shopping, whether it is through drugs and alcohol and addiction. It's just going to seep out of us, in some way.

And, so, the question is, can we take our brokenness, the things that uniquely shape us, and char us, and crack us, and surrender it, in some ways. And the first place, I think, we should surrender it is, a pit stop, at the feet of Jesus.

But then, also, I'm in a confessional community led by Dr. Curt Thompson, and it's just a group of seven of us and we're walking together. And we're being like, my friend Anne says, Jesus with skin on to each other. Bringing our brokenness in the room and seeing that no matter how bad it is, deep the crack is, shattered the experience is, the relationship is, they're not leaving the room.

And, so, if we can begin to embrace pain, which is the subtitle of my first book, that I bet people were like, "Mh-hmm, I don't know if I want to pick that up." But if we choose to embrace pain, and we invite Jesus into that and, then, we invite our friends into that, that's following Jesus right alongside us. I think, brokenness actually could be the antidote to a life of healing, holiness, and wholeness.

When we don't embrace brokenness, however, it leads to the place that we've all seen. Pastors falling, leaders crushing their entire families and organizations. We've seen it and we're all so shocked. We're like, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe she was doing that. I can't believe he was doing that."

Well, of course, you can't believe it because you didn't know about it. Because they were hiding it and they leaked out. And, so, our brokenness can be detrimental to us or it can quite, literally, be the antidote, to a life of freedom.

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, it is. I think people hide it really well a lot of times. And, you're right, it's going to come out some way, if we don't take the time to really look at it, to deal with it, to talk to somebody about. I love the group that you're in, and how you can support each other through that. I think women do that, honestly, do you have any men in your group or is it all women?

Toni: It's all women. And then we're led by Dr. Curt Thomson, who's a man, and we're always like, "We're so sorry, brother, we're so sorry."

Dr. Kim: But women do it better than we do as guys. It seems like it's easier for women to come together and guys will come together and watch a ball game or whatever. But when I can get guys to get together, even if it's just accountability.

The difference it makes by having someone that you can be transparent with, that you can, "Hey, I'm struggling with this." It makes such a difference. I think for us, I've seen a lot of guys there, it is their first step to identifying and beginning to heal that brokenness. And what you're saying there, I mean, every successful 12-Step group I know, starts with admitting you have a problem.

Toni: Yes, confession.

Dr. Kim: Yes, we have to start there. You can't do steps two through 12, if you haven't done step one.

Toni: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: And, obviously, having God involved in the middle of it. Because He does want us to get well, and, sometimes, we don't grasp that real well. We don't realize how much that He wants us to heal.

Toni: Yes, and, I think, what's unfortunate is how twisted our view of God has been stewarded. I mean, we have seen churches that built a sanctuary for just believers. We're going to keep all those other heathens out there; this is just a church for the saints. And, so, the picture that that's painted is this very thwarted view of God, that we somehow have to get all cleaned up for Him to tap in. Like He's the God that's at the end of the tunnel, and as soon as we get everything all perfect and all good to go, then, He'll be there.

But that's not at all who He is. He's actually quite the opposite. He's the one that lights up every single step that we take. In order to do that, you have to be with someone walking step and step, just a few inches ahead of them. Not all the way at the end of this tunnel, saying, "I'll be over here when you're ready."

And, so, if we do a better job and, I think, the church has done a better job of presenting the actual gospel, and presenting the actual character of God. I think more people will be like, "Huh, oh, maybe, this isn't like this exclusive country club type situation. Actually, God's been waiting for me all along, whether I have it cleaned up or not. And it is by His glory and divinity that He will start to refine me through the process."

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes. I've told people this before, in counseling, that if they're in a church where they feel they got to be perfect to walk in the doors, you need to find a different church. 

Toni: Right, you got to go.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and I think that's why, sometimes, people see us as hypocrites. Well, you go to church and you still do that, and I go, "Yes, I'm still a sinner. I'm saved, but, yes, I'm still going to screw up."

Toni: I'm doing the best I can here.

Dr. Kim: "And I want to be in God's presence, but I want to be in the presence of other believers." And, so, yes, if you're not in a church where you feel you can be who you are, then find a church where you can.

Toni: That's so good.

Dr. Kim: We just need it.

[00:24:12] < Music >

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[00:26:27] < Music >

Dr. Kim: What about marriage?

Toni: Man, it's been interesting because I'm on my second marriage, praise the Lord. God has redeemed that area of my life. But I brought a lot of baggage into the marriage. Like, "Oh, my gosh, abuse, drug addiction, restarting my life, single mom. Oh, my gosh, all the things." And I start dating this guy who's in the church, and he's pastoring, and he's traveling, and speaking. And I'm looking at him like, "Oh, my gosh, he is not going to want me."

And, so, there's that insecurity talking. There's that idea that I'm not worthy of this. And we rushed into it in a way that didn't allow for my own healing. And one of the things that I think we've learned, thankfully, we hopped right into counseling right after we got married. Because we were like, "Whoa, we should have done that before, that was crazy."

But we've, unfortunately, been working on the defense for years and years. And five years in, we've been married for eight years now. But five years in, we finally got to a point where we were like, "Woo, I think, we both have done the majority of the healing that we need to do. Healing is a lifelong process, so we're going to keep going, but at least we're stable." And I think people bring baggage into marriages that they really shouldn't have to.

The truth is, we're talking about two whole individuals coming to create something holy. And my encouragement always, and the encouragement that I even think my husband would give if he was sitting here, is if you can commit to your own personal healing, wholeness, and holiness, that will be reflected in your marriage. We want a marriage that's whole, that is healing, and that is holy. But we don't get that unless we embrace our own brokenness, we process through all the things that we carry into this union, and we do it well.

And, so, people laugh at us all the time because we have three counselors. I have a counselor, my husband has a counselor, we have a marriage counselor together, people laugh at us all the time. We're, actually, doing a program called Prepare and Enrich, which I'm sure that you are familiar with.

But we're doing the enrich part where we're just taking a look at our marriage and, like, "What's going on? Are we okay? Everything is good." We are not absent minded of the brokenness that we bring into this situation. Some of it because of our marriage and a lot of it because of our past.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Toni: And, so, marriage is work, baby. I mean, I just I don't know who lied to the people that said this was just a little walk in the park, but it is just work and it's continual work. It is just like our sanctification. We need guardrails. We need different things in different seasons.

We just had a baby, our first baby together. But we have a blended family, so we've got all these idiosyncracies in our marriage, and our family dynamic. So it's just constant work; but it's good, holy, work.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it is, and you grow together. I love the things that you're saying, there's nobody that can change me but my letting God do it, and so I can't change my spouse.

Toni: Hoo, how many times have we tried to do that?

Dr. Kim: Oh, my gosh, I tried to put Nancy in this box for so long and she just wouldn't stay in there. And, then, when you finally realize, "No, God gave you this person because they were different." In fact, I think it'd be boring if we married someone just alike.

Toni: Oh, yes.

Dr. Kim: But I think that's a good point to think of. We do bring baggage into marriage; and if we've had a previous marriage or the longer we're single. I think we got married young and so we still had baggage. We had family of origin baggage. But we didn't have as much relationship baggage.

But you always have things to work through. And, you're right, every season brings new challenges, but also new joys. What's God got to do in this season? I think I thought early, Toni, that we'd have that first year or two of marriage, we'd figure it all out, and then we'd just coast for 50 years. I thought that is what, that's it.

Toni: Well, we've done the work. We did the little premarital thing, let's keep it moving here.

Dr. Kim: That's right.

Toni: No, when you have a baby and it's like, "I don't like the way you change that diaper."

"Why aren't you up?"

"I'm sleep deprived, what's going on?"

"Parenting is different than what I thought it was going to be with you. Let's talk about it." So many things.

Dr. Kim: Then you have that second kid and you go, "Oh, my gosh."

Toni: And don't let you have the third, then, you're outnumbered and you don't know what to do.

Dr. Kim: True, true, you go from man, to man to zone defense, I mean, that's just life. So, in marriage, really, just acknowledging our brokenness and being willing to let God come in and work on it. And, then, the other spouse just walking beside them, not trying to fix them, but just being there.

Toni: Withness, just being the person that God created you to be.

Dr. Kim: I love that word. I'm going to start using that, I like that a lot. 

Toni: Use that word.

Dr. Kim: I will.

Toni: Use it.

Dr. Kim: Yes, because it's really what it is. What about past hurt and trauma? You alluded to some things you've went through. Everybody, probably, high percentage of those that are listening and watching us with this, has some problem in the past. So what's the first step?

Toni: Well, my first step was, oh, I even hate to say this. Because it's interesting that I look back on it now, when I say it, it's very hard for people to understand if you're still in the pain. But it is very difficult to heal in the place and with the people that broke you, in the first place.

And one of the first things that I had to do was to get out of the environment that was causing so much pain, and hurt and trauma. And that's hard because when you're married and you're in an abusive marriage. You're like, "I want my marriage to work and I want this to be healthy and safe." And you have all these longings, and we run from the grief of leaving even the painful situations.

Sometimes it feels easier to choose agony over loneliness. But the truth is, there's a reason why, in my personal opinion, God planted Adam and Eve in a place. The place itself was designed to carry them, care for them. Be a holy place of renewal for them.

Places and spaces matter to God. There's a reason why God chose the hill that overlooked the Sea of Galilee, when He gave the Sermon on the Mount. It was something about that space. There's a reason why He retreated to Gethsemane by himself. There's reason for places and spaces. And I just think that God's intent is for any place or space that we dwell in, with the people we dwell in it with should be safe, and holy, and good.

And, so, the first step, I think, is getting into a space that makes you feel safe, and holy, and good. And, sometimes, that's transitioning people out, which is hard, to a different place in your life. Creating boundaries, hard. Leaving a place that you love, so hard. But I just think that if that could be our first step. If the first pursuit could be, "Let me get into a safe place." I just think we would feel more open and free to even start the healing journey.

Dr. Kim: Because, I think, I wouldn't use the word impossible, it is so hard to do it if you're not. 

Toni: I used to say impossible, and people are like, "What? What do you mean?"

I was like, "It's very difficult."

Dr. Kim: Very difficult because you've got something fighting you all the time. And, sometimes, when you're in an unhealthy relationship like that, and you're married to someone that's very unhealthy and abusive and those things, they don't want you to get healthy. 

Toni: No.

Dr. Kim: So you're trying to get well and, then, you got the person that you're in bed with at night and walking with during the day, that doesn't want you to get well. So it is hard, and I'd never recommend divorce. I think that's got to be somebody's decision. But to get safe is okay, and to get yourself separated for a while so you can think through and get yourself healthy, that's okay. That's okay, you don't have to be in an abusive relationship. 

Toni: Absolutely.

Dr. Kim: So I'm going to ask you a personal question. You don't have to answer it. What made you get out of the first marriage? What got you to that point?

Toni: It wasn't the what, it was the who. I remember driving to church, going to Easter service with my daughter's dad, and he just was yelling, and cursing, and banging against the wheel. And I remember looking in the rearview mirror at my daughter and she wasn't crying, she was just in shock.

And, so, I call it the day that I saw fear in my daughter's eyes, for the first time. And the truth is I wasn't secure or worthy enough to leave. I thought, because my dad was really verbally abusive, this is just how people, men talk to women. This is the marriage, it's okay.

I was unfazed by a door being ripped off the hinges, and holes punched in the walls, and it was like I was so used to trauma. But there was something in me that recognized that I did not want my daughter to live and grow up in that. Because, then, she would be numb to pain, and trauma, and abuse like I was.

And, so, it was the who, my daughter, Dylan, that after almost a decade of counseling, working through things, bringing other people in. Even changing churches, believing, "Okay, if we went to a different church, then, we can go to their marital program." I mean, so many things. Prayers, and fasting, and safety, and healing wasn't important to me for me, it was important to me for my daughter. She was the reason why I left.

Dr. Kim: It makes sense. I've had other women tell me the exact same thing. 

Toni: It's sad and hard that you have a child in a situation like that. But, truly, sometimes, the child is the hero, truly.

Dr. Kim: Well, and you don't want her to think that's normal.

Toni: No.

Dr. Kim: And you don't want her to marry someone like her dad and think it's okay. "Okay, it's what mom endured."

Toni: "It's just normal."

Dr. Kim: And I think God doesn't want us in situations like that, and it's okay to protect ourselves. It's hard, I'm sure it wasn't easy. And another thing I see with women, I think, too, a lot, Toni, is that you said ten years. I think women give, and give, and give, and finally you do look at your child or something, and you think, "I can't do this anymore? I see what it's doing to her." Yes, and that's okay when you get there. It wasn't like God closed His door on you, right?

Dr. Kim: Oh, my gosh, that was the biggest revelation. I grew up catholic. I was like, "Well, I'm going to hell, absolutely, it's over." I mean, it was just big, I got a divorce. I chose it, it's on me, there it is. My daughter's safe but my eternity is not. My eternity is not safe anymore. And to learn that there was a God that said, "Do you not think that if I'm strong enough to raise Jesus from the dead, I'm not capable of forgiveness and redemption in your life?" Oh, my goodness, it was like, "Huh, okay. He's the God of withness, no matter what.

Dr. Kim: That's so powerful. So you're in a new marriage? 

Toni: Yes.

Dr. Kim: Our pastor is going through the Book of Ruth, right now, and we're just in the second chapter in Ruth, and Boaz has come on the scene. Do you have a Boaz, and how did you get him there? How did God get you there?

Toni: Oh, my gosh, it was so weird. I want to say something; I've read Ruth in the past couple of months. Because I've been going through the bible in a year, for this year. And it was interesting when I read it because I was like, "Oh, my husband Sam was so that to me." But I think women can mistake their Boaz as their savior, and that's what I did.

I met Sam, I was doing this presentation at a church. I was consulting, trying to get back up on my feet, after divorce, and I was just helping people brainstorm ideas. And, so, I'm presenting this idea for this company. And Sam, my husband's there, and he's like, "Who is this girl?" And someone actually texts him and says, "Oh, no, dude, she's got all these issues. She's got a kid. We think she's divorced." Because it wasn't public at the time. And they're like, "Oh, I don't know, it's a lot of mess and drama over there."

And he was like, "Okay, well, let me just back off here."

And about a month or two went by and he reached out, and he was like, "I'd love to take you on a date." And I was just like, "No, I am fresh off of divorce, and I got a kid, and I don't know." And I remember my friend saying, "It's just a date. Go on a date, it is what it is." So I go on a date. We're there for six hours, and Sam is just the best man I've ever met. I'm like, "Who is this guy that's so in tune with his emotions, so kind, loves the Lord, single. He has a house." I'm like, "Whoa."

And from that day on, until we got healing in our marriage, he was my savior. I had quite, literally, put him in the place in exchange for Jesus, and he is not wired to bear that.

Dr. Kim: No.

Toni: And that caused so much tension and pain in our marriage, and even in our friendship. Because we have such a good friendship, we're crazy together. We chase each other around the house. We laugh, we tell inside jokes. We have a friendship, but it really damaged us.

Because here I am, again, the same thing I did at my first church, put the pastor in place as the savior. I did with him and it crushed him in ways that I'm sure he's still healing from, in his own personal counseling sessions, and that was just hard. And I just think we just can't put our Boaz in the place of our savior because they're not made for that.

Dr. Kim: No, and it puts so much, it's unrealistic when you think about it, and I get it. Sam, God brought him in your life. But it wasn't to be your God, it was to be your husband.

Toni: He was like, "Okay, you took this gift a little too seriously here-"

Dr. Kim: Well, plus, none of us are perfect, as guys. We're still going to make that mistake, at times. 

Toni: Same.

Dr. Kim: We try to learn from them, and that's what I tell people. So you did that, learn from it and then God redeems it, and you don't have to wallow in that. 

Toni: Yes, that's good.

Dr. Kim: So we're going to make those mistakes.

Toni: Yes, and isn't it better to know that on the front end? To already accept that marriage is going to be hard. That we are imperfect. It's our rose-colored filters, our rosy filters, that we come into church with and we come into marriage with, that really sets us up for unmet expectations. And there's nothing wrong with having boundaries and with having things that you prefer.

But when we come into situations with expectations that we didn't discuss with anybody, and it's just this internal narrative. Gosh, nine times out of 10, we leave, we crush it, we ruin it because our expectations weren't met, even if we didn't voice them. Even if they're stories that we're telling ourselves.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Toni: And, sometimes, those expectations we don't tell. Then, we get mad for somebody not fulfilling what we never even told them about it.

Toni: Yes, we have this phrase in our marriage, that we learned in one of our marriage intensives, and it's just the story that I'm telling myself is. And it's beautiful because it doesn't discount what you're feeling, but it also doesn't place blame on someone who has no idea what you're saying inside. And I remember many times telling Sam, "The story that I'm telling myself is, the reason why you're not taking out the trash is because you don't care for our family. Because you would rather that I do it."

I mean, all of these stories, and then when you bring that open handed to your spouse and they say, "Oh, no, I love our family. I want to care well for our family. I'm really having some difficulty remembering, is there any way that we can put a calendar invite, together, like, for a notification to take out the trash?" Oh, my gosh, how many arguments will you save telling what you feel without placing the blame, yet? We call it the yellow, so it's the caution state. I go to the red very fast. I'm like, "You don't want to do anything." 

And he's like, "Whoa, you're at red, sweet girl. You have jumped from green to red." But just like when we drive vehicles, the safest option is for us to slow down first before we stop, full stop, before we're at red.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.

Toni: And, so, I try to go to yellow. My sweet husband goes to yellow all the time. He's like, "Hey, when you did that, what did you mean by that?"

Me, I'm like, "When you did that, I knew what you meant." So feisty.

Dr. Kim: Because you can't read his mind, you know that, right?

Toni: Yes, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on up there, though.

Dr. Kim: I love the red, yellow, green. I think we need visuals like that and think, "Oh, my gosh, I am jumping in the red. It's getting pretty pink right now; I need to go back. I need to-"

Toni: We love colors in our family, as you can tell, all colors.

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, but it's something we can identify with. Everybody knows what red, yellow and green are.

Toni: Yes, and it doesn't just go from green to red, that would be crazy. How many wrecks would there be? How much destruction would there be?

Dr. Kim: Exactly. No, we need that yellow. I like that a lot. I think, too, when you're talking about, sometimes, with our expectations. One of the things, I taught a Prep for Marriage class for a year, and it was a nine-week course. I taught this at church three times a year, lots of people. But the last Scripture I gave them was when Jesus said, "In this world you'll have trouble, but I've overcome the world."

Because it's easy to go into marriage with rose-colored glasses and think it's all going to be okay, and it's just not. But if you go into it knowing there's problems and knowing you've got a God that has all the answers, then that's what we have to rely on. Not on Boaz, or Sam, or anybody else, and then Sam can be the best husband that God equips him to be.

Toni: That God equips him to be, whoa, that's good.

Dr. Kim: I like it.

Toni: That's good, listen, we had, wow, this was amazing. I'm like someone just shaved off some counseling sessions listening to this, right now.

Dr. Kim: Well, I hope so. So let's talk a little bit, what about you and Sam today? What are you loving about being married to Sam, today?

Toni: Oh, that's so funny. So one of the things that we had in our marriage, at the beginning, was if we're not having fun, we're doing something wrong. And I love that we're still chasing that intently. We have been through a lot. I mean, it's been eight years, we've seen deaths in our family. His mother passed away this past year. We've seen just all sorts of unhealth and we've seen counseling. We've seen a lot of counseling, a lot. We've seen blended family going from a really hostile situation to like, "Oh, I think everyone's stable."

To, "Oh, my gosh, we're all co-parenting, as blended families, that we've gone through new marriage, for my first husband and a new baby." So many things. And all of those things really could have left us pretty stale, and broken, and defeated. But instead we've embraced our brokenness and we've not let it steal our joy. We still have so much fun. I mean, literally, just yesterday I was driving down the highway and he was like, "Dude, I have to call you, I've got this funny story to tell you." And we're just screaming on the phone and that's such a gift, I feel.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely.

Toni: That we can still just holler and snort together, and have fun after everything that we've been through, that's really good.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. And, I think, it's so important to have fun with your spouse and, sometimes, we lose that. I hope that encouraged them, what you just said. Because you had fun before you got married or you wouldn't have got married.

Toni: Yes, why [Inaudible 00:48:29] boring situation.

Dr. Kim: So bring that back because that's one of the gifts God gives us in marriage. To laugh together, it connects us in a very different way than other things do, for sure, very much so. Toni, this has been a blast.

Toni: So good.

Dr. Kim: Where can people find you?

Toni: Toni Collier on all the things t-o-n-i-c-o-l-l-i-e-r on Instagram. Website tonijcollier.com everything is there, all the books. I've been posting about the kids book, and all these great partnerships that I've been doing with organizations. It's just been so sweet. But Toni Collier on everything.

Dr. Kim: And Broken Crayons Still Color is the name of the kids' book?

Toni: Broken Crayons Still Color, the kids' book, it's so precious.

Dr. Kim: The new book is something that people can look forward to, and that's all exciting. So find Toni, you will love her. I love everything that she does, and thank you so much for spending time with us today.

Toni: Yay, thank you for having me.

Dr. Kim: You're so welcome.

[00:49:31] < Outro >

Announcer:Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.