Growing Together Through Grief with Kerry & Chris Shook | Ep. 538
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage podcast. Today, Chris and Kerry Shook join me on the podcast. Kerry and Chris are the founding pastors of Woodlands Church in Texas, and the New York Times, bestselling authors.
Their newest book is The Gift of One Day: How to Find Hope When Life Gets Hard. In the book, they share the story of maintaining an unshakable marriage at a time of intense hardship in losing their grandson Jude. This is a powerful podcast, on a very difficult subject.
So let's go meet Chris and Kerry now.
Kerry and Chris, thank you so much for being here today, on The Awesome Marriage Podcast. I love having you guys, just thank you for taking time out of your busy schedules to spend some time with us, today.
Kerry: We're so glad to be here, Dr. Kim.
Chris: That's right, it's a joy.
Dr. Kim: Well, it's great to see you guys. So let's get in, obviously, the book, Kerry, you said that "Some hurts you will never get over but you will get through them." That's a big concept, unpack that for us.
Kerry: Well, I think that a lot of times when we're grieving, I know, especially for men and for me, you really want to get over it. You want the paint to stop, and sometimes we even want our wives to get over it and you'll never get over it. That grief will be there in some form. And I think that we want to rush through grief. As Americans, we don't like to be sad, it feels wrong to be sad. But grief is the way God works in our hearts to bring the healing.
And, so, when we put a timetable on it, it really prevents the healing from taking place. But it's good to know that we grieve with hope and we will get through it. God will get us through it. And it feels like He won't at times, but He will get us through it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, we mentioned, just before we went on, how difficult it is when there is a loss of a child. And I do see that the couples I've worked with, the husband and wife usually deal with it very differently. Do you see that?
Kerry: No doubt about it. And we need to leave room for each other to grieve the way God's made us. And there's no timetable for grief when we watched our son, Josh and Kelli, who were experiencing grief in a way that we couldn't even imagine.
I know that Josh always looked to purpose many times, God's purpose, and how God would use Jude and his story to make a difference in someone else's life, and that really encouraged him. Where for Kelli, that was encouraging, but that wasn't the main thing for her. It was just Josh's presence and other people around her, who just grieved with her and just felt her sadness.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think it is just the way we're wired different. And you said earlier, as guys, we, I don't know whether we just avoid it or we don't want to... Or I think in some situation I've seen the husband feels, "I've got to stay strong so I can be here for her." And then he doesn't really go through what he needs to go through, and you both have to go through it, right?
Kerry: Mh-hmm.
Chris: That's for sure.
Dr. Kim: So what does it look like to be changed by the pain you've experienced? Is that a good thing, a bad thing? How does God use that?
Chris: I think it's an inescapable thing. We're going to be changed when we go through a pain. Whether we come out bitter or better, it's going to change us somehow, though. I don't think anyone I've known has gone through a really tough experience and come out the same.
And, so, just, realizing that, realizing that you're in the center of something that's going on, and you're going to come out in some way or another. And thinking about that and thinking, "Okay, if I want to come out closer to the Lord, more effective, what can I do?"
It doesn't mean you're not hurting. But it does mean that you can take those thoughts, each day, with you and say, "Lord, I need you. I need you more than ever, I really do."
And, "What am I going to do? I need more time with the Lord. I need more encouragement, surrounding myself with friends or family who are encouraging." And doing what it takes because you will be changed.
Kerry: Mm-hmm, and you feel like withdrawing, we saw that with Josh and Kelli. You just feel like that no one else quite gets it. Everyone else is happy, and the enemy wants those thoughts in our minds. And then there are people that want to make you happy. I know for me, as a husband, I feel like at times it's my job to help Chris be happy, and that's not it at all, it's just to stay in the pain together.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and that's sometimes hard to do. And probably some people that may hear this may think, "But how can I go to God, I'm so angry at God? What would you say to them?
Chris: I think it's just being honest. I love how, in the Bible, for instance, in Psalms, David is so direct at saying, "Lord, this hurts. I'm mad. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I don't understand. I feel like my life is over. Why would you let this happen?"
God already knows our emotions, and just being willing to say those to Him. Whether that is just quietly in prayer or I think it's great to be able to write that down. Just my own letter to God, just as David did. Just write them, journaling and really processing what's going on because God can handle our tough feelings. He created us to have feelings and He understands. It's such a relief to be able to pour out our hearts to God, and to know that we can pour back to Him.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love the way you said that because God does know what we're thinking, anyway. I don't know why we feel like if we don't say it He's not going to, He doesn't know though we're hiding from Him. But David gives us such an example, I'm glad you brought that up, Chris, he really lashed out sometimes at God. And, yet, then, what we have him described as a man after God's heart. It's like, "Okay, this has got to be okay, God understands this."
Chris: Yes.
Kerry: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And I think there's value... I love that you said, too, Chris, writing down, which is so therapeutic. It is for me when I'm going through something. There just seems to be something the way God wired us, that when we journal, write things down, it's a processing thing. Do you guys see that?
Kerry: No doubt. I know that it's hard for me to journal. I haven't been used to journaling, but I've been learning to journal. And for me it's been hard, too, to express my anger to God and lash out at God. But that's been so helpful, as I've learned that I don't express hurt to others that hurts them. Because it's going to come out in some way and God is saying, "Bring it to me." And I know for our son, Josh, after losing Jude, that's been one of the most helpful things for him too. It's just he feels so much more comfort when he gets it all out to God and he journals it all out.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm, it's just so therapeutic. And I think God uses that and God gave us so many tools, sometimes, that we just overlook, that He didn't leave us hanging out there to do that. I want to ask you one thing, though, so the people that may hear this, or at some time it's their family member like you guys were, or a friend that's going through this.
What is the best counsel to tell them? What do they do when they want to help? But sometimes we don't do. Our intentions are good, but what we do doesn't really help.
Chris: Yes, that is a really great question. And what we found to be true is that one of the best things you can do, first of all, is bring up the person's name, bring it up, be the one. So often when we are hurting or have something hard going on in our own lives. Everybody else in the room seems happy and we don't want to ruin the atmosphere, by bringing up our hard stuff. And, so, we just carry that pain by ourselves. And the reality is if it's friends and family, and it's something big going on in their lives, often they know about it.
They just don't know how to approach it. And they think, "Well, you seem like you're doing okay, so I don't want to bring it up to you." And make you [Inaudible 00:08:40] and the reality is that when parents or grandparents, a family member, have lost a child, had any death in the family. But I think so true with a child, you just don't have to worry about reminding them. They're already thinking about that.
You can't remind us about Jude, no mention of someone else about Jude could hurt us because it's not that we haven't been thinking about. We go, "Oh, that's right. That was a hard thing."
No, he's always in our hearts. He's always in our minds. And, so, it's just a joy to be able to speak about him with people. If a friend says, "Hey, how are you doing? How are Josh and Kelli doing since Jude went to be with the Lord?"
It's a real relief. It's a safe place. It's a real gift to be able to just share, to have an opportunity to share. So I would encourage everyone to step out. It feels a little awkward, at first, but to step into that awkwardness and just say, "How are you doing?"
Or "How is your husband, who has cancer?"
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Chris: Just finding a way to open that door.
Kerry: Yes, and I think, Dr. Kim, that it's so important just to be with people in their pain. I know, as a pastor, our tendency is to think that we can be the hero, and give them a few verses, and pray for them, and everything is going to be okay. But for our son, Josh and Kelli, when they found out that Jude probably wasn't going to make it in more than a few hours.
It was just real important for us to come to their house and just cry with them. That was probably the most powerful thing we could do. And it was easy because we hurt so deeply, but there were no answers. There were no spiritual principles that we're going to get them through. It was just being there with them and letting the Holy Spirit bring comfort, as we shared the grief together.
Chris: I can just add something maybe very practical, quickly, is that so many people say, "Well, let me know if I can do anything for you." And how often do we really take people up on that? It seems ambiguous and we don't want to impose. But I've found that, better yet, is to just call or text someone and say, "Hey, I'm at the store right now, what can I pick up for you?"
Or to just go ahead and step in and do something. Drop off some groceries, lean into that, some very practical things. Because when hard stuff comes into any of our lives, the regular, every day, stuff is still happening. You still have to eat meals, a lot of the same things. Your kids still have to get to school, if you have other children, and all the regular stuff happens.
And, so, just saying, "I want to do this for you." And being specific, we found it was a real gift. And I found that to be true in reaching out to others as well. Instead of, I used to just say, "I know, please, let me know if there's anything I can do for you." And no one ever gets back to you on that.
Dr. Kim: Oh, no. I love the practical ideas because sometimes people want to do something, and they really don't know what to do, and they don't want to do something wrong. But those things are helpful. I mean, I know that when you go through grief, you're not in touch with, and you still got to live life, and just to bring some food or groceries and those kind of things.
And I think, Kerry when you were just talking about... I mean, here you are in a situation, with your son and daughter-in-law. And you're the pastor who's supposed to have all the answers and, yet, you chose to just be with them and let the Holy Spirit work, there's so much wisdom in that.
Kerry: Hmm. Yes, my tendency would be to try to say, "Hey, we know God is going to take care of this. Everything is going to be all right." All those things. And I know that when we're hurting, we just want to know if someone else hurts with us. And then we're amazed that our son and daughter-in-law, they would say things that would be so powerful, that would just speak to us.
One of the things Josh said at the 20-week mark, when we found out from the doctor that Jude probably wouldn't live. He would be fine and healthy in the womb. But then outside the womb he wouldn't be able to live. Josh said to us, "Well, God is not surprised by this."
This knocks us to our knees because yesterday we were having a great day, and today our whole world's crashing in. But God knew it and He was already here crying for us and weeping for us. So it makes me feel good to know that God's not surprised by this. And we were just taken back by that and thought, "Wow. It's good for us to hear that from him.
Dr. Kim: That's powerful, wow, it sounds like he's an amazing man.
Kerry: Yes, he really is.
Dr. Kim: It's something really difficult like that. So we often would rather get over it than have to go through the process of grief. And a lot of times just people don't know how to grieve or people have told them... I had a guy one time that his mom died when he was eight years old. When he came back from the funeral, they had changed, there was nothing about her in the house. And that was the way their culture did it at that time. And, so, I saw him when he was 45, he had never grieved the death of his mom. So how do you grieve in a healthy way?
Kerry: Hmm, I know when Chris was 18 years old she lost her mother to cancer. And her family didn't know the Lord, and she was a strong Christ follower even then. And I know that was the strategy was, they were a Midwestern family, and it was kind of, "Okay, stiff upper lip, we're going to get through this and altogether we're going to get through this." And Chris gave them an example which amazed me, at 18, that we grieve with hope. And how in the world were you able to do that?
Chris: I think day-by-day, and that's what we went through, again, with Jude. At 20 weeks learning that, seeing our son and daughter-in-law who we love so much, with their first child, receiving this devastating news. We were grieving for them. We were grieving for our grandchild. I mean, all of it was so wrapped up.
And it was, Jesus words have never felt more real or true to me, just in the Lord's prayer. When He said, "Just for today, give us this day our daily bread." And two of those words just speak to that immediacy of pray just for today. Don't try to get ahead. Don't try to figure out, "How are we going to ever make it through the next 20 weeks."
I mean, forget that, a lot of times it was just through the next hour. But being able to just stay and put blinders on and say, "Okay, Lord." And, so, every morning and just say, "Okay, God, just for today, please, give us wisdom to make the right decisions. Please help us to keep our eyes on you. Please help us to not just crash if bad news comes."
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Chris: And just staying right there and at the end of the day, a kind of like a bookmark, being able to say, "Wow, look what God did. You did it again, God." And something that helped us through that is we started in a blank journal I had laying around the house, I just started writing down prayers. And every day I'd say, "Okay, God, I'm going to watch for you. You say you're working; I'm going to look for you. I'm going to look for you today."
I accompanied Josh and Kelli to Cincinnati, where she had an experimental treatment. We had a program there. And, so, in the morning it's okay, "We're watching for God today." And then throughout the day, and it oftentimes, even though our big prayer that we wanted to be answered, wasn't being answered.
We'd have just strangers, just unusual kindness shown from people. We hadn't shared our story, they didn't know the story, they didn't know anything. But we found God showing up in so many ways, just caring for us deeply, and keeping our eyes focused on that. Every night I'd say, "Okay, guys, what do we have for the miracle book today?"
And every day we never went through one day where there wasn't something to write down. We had seeing God work and God provide. And, so, again, even though, our prayers were not answered regarding Jude's health, of course we would love to have him here. But we're so grateful that because of Jesus, we have eternity to be together. And we're grateful that he helped us open our eyes and start this just-for-today kind of living. And that's something that's carried on for all of us.
Kerry: And that's where the book, The Gift of One Day, came from, is from Chris's miracle book. That normally the grief and the pain just overwhelms us. And, so, it really takes intentionality with God's power to go, "I'm going to look for, through all this bad that we don't get God. I don't know what you're doing here, but I do know you love us. You're good and we're going to look for that good thing today that shows us that you love us."
And just writing those things down, that was such a God thing. And I'm so grateful for Chris having the wisdom to do that because she was hurting so bad and trying to be there for our kids. And, yet, they would write that down every day, and that's been such a treasure for all of us.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it gives you a reference point, doesn't it? Because sometimes we're like the Israelites, in a lot of ways, we forget what God has done. And, so, I think when you've got it written down and go back and see that, in those times of struggle, that helps so much. Because, "Oh, yes, God did do that. He did have that person that was so kind that day when we were there." And things like that, that meant so much to you at that time. And I love that you were able to record those things, and then to remember those things, and to look for Him because that's not easy sometimes.
Chris: Mm-hmm, well, one thing that helped is that it was done very imperfectly, this was not some beautiful journal. I don't want to give the wrong impression. This was just a blank notebook we had sitting in the house that day, when we first found out. And then these were things scribbled down day-by-day, while sitting in waiting rooms. If we waited for perfect that would never happen. But we have this, we do have this record, and we were able, day by day, we would go back because we needed that reassurance and we would keep reading through it.
No, "Okay, God's, He is working. He is here with us." And it really helped us a lot. I mean, in a very practical way helped us to be aware of His presence. Like, "God, you are working, you are taking care of us, you do have a plan."
Dr. Kim: That's so good. That's good. Kerry do you have anything to add to that, as far as a healthy way to grieve?
Kerry: Yes, you need other people around you desperately. Because when you're grieving, you just want to go into a cave.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Kerry: It reminds me of Elijah, when he was depressed and running from Jezebel, and he goes into a cave, and just wants to hide away. But God draws him out with that gentle whisper. And I believe if we can just tune in a little bit, that gentle whisper is always there. A lot of times we think God is nowhere around, but He's closer to us in our pain than ever. And if we can take a little step out, when we don't feel like it. To be around some others who will not tell us what we need to do or tell us that everything's going to be okay, but just be there.
Take those little steps and God takes us the rest of the way. And, so, I would say be at a grief support group. Make sure that you're coming to church. I know there are times you're not going to feel like it, and you're going to miss, and don't judge yourself harshly, you're hurting. But just try to take those steps, to step out.
Chris: And I'd include that we're huge proponents of good Christian counseling.
Kerry: Oh, yes.
Chris: You have to find someone-
Kerry: You got to.
Chris: Yes, find someone. I'm so thankful, God has given people, like you, Dr. Kim, wisdom to share. And, so, we'd encourage people, "Wow, find somebody." Look in as many places as you can to find just that wise counsel that'll help keep you on track.
Kerry: And for parents who lose a child, I was so glad Josh and Kelli right away, even though they felt like, "Hey, our marriage is strong." They knew that this is was going to be a test. Because they are the statistics, Christian marriages, non-Christian marriages, going through the loss of a child many times it ends. And the marriage falling apart because it's just so hard to deal with.
Dr. Kim: As a Christian counselor, too. I hate to, that doesn't even sound right. But when someone like Josh and Kelli would come to me it's such an honor. And I love that God gives me the opportunity, at times, to walk through something with somebody.
So I would say most Christian counselors feel the same way. That we are honored to get to spend time with them and to share what God, the wisdom and insight He gives us that we hope will help them. So thanks for the plug for Christian counseling
Kerry: Yes, and when people in our church who are grieving, lost a child, a teenager took their own life, things that are just so overwhelming that there's nothing to say. But we always know, praise God, we've got Christian counselors.
Chris: Yes.
Kerry: We pray with them, we're there with them, we try to do whatever we can. But, yet, it's good to know there are people like you out there that have trained so hard, and are gifted, and that we can send them to.
Dr. Kim: Well, thank you. When I, finally, figured out that's what God wanted me to do, it's been a blessing ever since then.
[00:22:09] < Music >
Announcer: Okay, you might want to muff the kids' ears for a minute. Because I'm about to tell you about a sexy resource we have available at Awesome Marriage. Sex is a good gift that God gave us to enjoy in marriage. But sometimes we're not, fully, enjoying that gift because we just don't think about it or prioritize it enough. And, especially, considering that for ladies, our mind plays such an important role in our sex life.
That's why our 62 Questions About Sex with 10 Bonus Sexy Bucketlist Challenges, are meant to help you learn more about your spouse. And just get to thinking more about sex and intimacy, as a way to deepen your marital intimacy. These range from the practical to the purely fun. And these questions help you think about sex and get you thinking about preparing yourself, mentally, for more and better sex with your spouse.
The 10 Sexy Bucketlist Challenges are a fun way to spice things up with some simple challenges. So let's pay attention to and be grateful for the gift with, 62 Questions About Sex with 10 Bonus Sexy Bucketlist Challenges! Grab this resource at awesomemarriage.com. By clicking Strengthen My Marriage under the Resources dropdown tab or by using the link in our show notes.
Awesome Marriage is a nonprofit ministry. So every penny donated goes directly to the mission of helping couples around the world hear about God's plan for marriage. And we truly appreciate your support.
[00:23:36] < Music >
Dr. Kim: One thing, when we were talking about people and people that tell you what to do or how you should grieve. If you're the person they're telling that to, is it okay to say, "Don't do that." Or to put some boundaries up?
Kerry: Yes, definitely, and I know Josh and Kelli struggle with that a little bit. Because people, trying to be helpful, they'd always look at it, "They're trying to be helpful." And, so, when they wouldn't say anything it would start to really go on in their minds over and over again. And then it became hard to understand that they're trying to be helpful.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Kerry: And, so, I think it is good to put boundaries up. Especially, for other family members that they're always coming over and telling you, "Hey, God wants you to be happy."
Or "You know everything is going to work out for good."
"He's in heaven, so why should we be worried? Let's just rejoice today."
Yes, I think you do need to put some boundaries up and really try to tell them how you're feeling. And if they don't understand, then it's going to be hard to grieve if someone's always there. Like Job's, friends telling him-
Dr. Kim: Great example.
Kerry: They said to him all these biblical truths that you read it and you go, "Wow, that's so true." But there was no love, no compassion, and that was detrimental and God was not pleased with Job's, friends.
Dr. Kim: No, even a verse like Romans 8:28, "That all things work good." Definitely it's true, but there's a time to say it and a time not to say it. Don't you think?
Chris: Yes, absolutely. We are to grieve with those who grieve and celebrate with those who celebrate.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Chris: I love that, that's what Jesus does for us.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Chris: He, always looks on us with joy and He's in our joyful moments and, yet, He is so near to the brokenhearted, and comforts us when we are hurting. And I would say that if any of your listeners don't have someone that they can be with like that, a friend like that, then to keep looking.
And, again, I would say maybe you are going through something tough and there really isn't anyone in your family that is responding in a way that you need them to. You don't have any friends who've ever gone through anything similar.
That's another great thing about Christian counseling, is that someone like you actually has walked through this very thing, with many people. And, so, it's not the first time that you've experienced it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and sometimes I've had a family talk to another family. Maybe that had walked through this five years ago, and they had had come through and had a lot of healing to connect them. And once you're healed that's some redemption, too. God's brought you full circle and now you know what He can do and now you can help somebody else.
Kerry: Yes, I know for our son and daughter-in-law, it's been so amazing. Because they've now ministered to so many parents whose experienced the same thing. The exact same problem, health problem, for their little one. And then so many who've gone through grief, and it gives them such encouragement to know that God never wastes a hurt.
And one of the things that the enemy lies to us about, when we're going through grief, is, "You're the only one who is experiencing this. You're all alone. Everyone else is happy. Your world's come to an end, but everyone else's world's going on, and everything else is fine, and no one else has experienced the depth of pain you have." And nothing can be further from the truth.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Kerry: We all go through pain but there's always someone out there who's been through that very thing you've gone through. And a lot of times, maybe they're the only ones who really get it, ultimately, because they've been through that. But God wants to connect you and then God wants to use you. And I think that one of the things about our experience with Jude is that Chris didn't wait, and we didn't wait to tell his story before everything was perfect, "And, now, we're all healed."
We told the story along the way and it helped us, and we were blessed to have a church that we could tell it with. And they, not knowing how the story would end, we knew that they would be with us and pray for us. And even when, in a sense, it was more powerful pointing to God and His grace and strength.
The way God answered our prayer not the way we wanted Him to, you were right about that. God answered our prayer, but not the way we wanted Him to, and it still doesn't make total sense to us. But I think that if God would've just done the miracle we wanted, to heal Jude physically, then it would've been powerful for our church.
But it's been, in some sense, even though we wouldn't want it this way. It's been more powerful for them to see God holding us up and working through in us, even in those times when, it didn't turn out the way we wanted it to. Jude story is a good story and God is using it to just touch so many lives through the book. But mainly through our son Josh and his wife Kelli, just ministering to so many people who are going through the same thing.
Dr. Kim: That's so powerful. We talked a little bit about how Josh and Kelli grieved, as the grandparents, did you guys grieve differently? How did you guys handle it? I mean, you're hurting for your son and daughter-in-law, and also for a grandchild that you looked forward to being in your life, that wasn't in your life.
Chris: I think that, as grandparents, we really tried to take our cues from Josh and Kelli, and realize that they were at the heart of this story. That this was their son, and as much we had so much overwhelming pain just watching them go through it and for our grandson, it would've been very easy to just get lost in ourselves.
But realizing that God has a place for us here and, yet, absolutely, we're grieving and we would be honest with them about that, honest with our church. But letting them decide when did they want us to lean in and when did they need some time for themselves. Looking for ways that we could help them.
There is you feel like you've had your arms cut off, you can't do anything to fix anything, and you want to help your kids. When there's something in any, whether your kids are young, or teenagers, or they're into adulthood, when they're really hurting, you want, as a parent, our hearts are to fix, to help, and when we couldn't do that it was devastating. It felt devastating to us. But we looked for the little ways that we could help.
And, so, whether that was just being with them. Helping maybe lift the load of some of the everyday stuff that was going on. Encouraging them to, maybe, after Jude what to be with the Lord, get away for a couple of days. And realize that for their marriage, "You need to step back first and just be able to just get quiet and be somewhere by yourselves." And it's been a process. It's been we're at five, it's been five years since Jude went to be with the Lord.
And, so, it's something that's continues to help. Of course, we know that grieving doesn't stop when the event ends. That's just when everybody else quits talking about it. And then the world moves on and you're left there with your pain, and your memories. And, so, creating an atmosphere in our home, and Josh and Kelli really let out in this, but where it is great to talk about Jude.
Our other grandchildren are used to hearing about Jude. Every year Josh and Kelli, on his birthday, they have a party and they get presents for the other cousins. And we all just talk about, "Hey, we're really looking forward to being with Jude in heaven."
When we see him in heaven. And he has a stocking on our mantle, right there in the middle of all the other grandkids. And everybody knows right where Jude is in the lineup. Because this is reality and we're going to see him again. And just because we didn't get to spend time with him here doesn't mean he's not equally a member of our family.
And, so, we try to just a simple sentence. When we have something, a family vacation, I'm talking about the extended family vacation or a family photo. Just saying, "Wow, this is a great trip. The only thing that could make it better was if Jude was here."
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's cool.
Chris: And then we can go on, but just that simple acknowledgement, we've found, has meant so much to them. That they realize that they're not the only ones that are still thinking of Jude and thinking, "Wow, we're all together but we're missing one. And, so, just being able to, as a normal way of talk, as believers, saying, "Yes, this is hard. But this world is not our home and someday all the sad things will be made untrue, and we're all looking forward to that day."
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, well, and just the hope that we have, as Christians. And knowing you know where Jude is and you know that you'll see him again, and I love just keeping him. I had other one family that their little boy died, I think he was around 12, and he was a baseball player. And, so, they started his tournament in his name probably four or five years after he died, something like that, and did that year after year after year.
And, so, keeping them their memory alive is so important, especially, to your other grandkids and family members. For them to know that he's a part of this family and he always will be forever and, so, I love that.
Chris: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So we talked a little bit about the Christian counseling and that, any other ideas of how a couple that's gone through this can protect their marriage against this impactful thing they're going through?
Kerry: Yes, it's really important to focus on your marriage. And I think one of the things that causes the problem, from what I've seen, the wife may think the husband is not grieving as much, or the husband may think the wife is not grieving as much. Because they do grieve differently and give them some space for that for each other and not thinking they're not hurting like you are. And then I think that the husband usually is trying to make the wife feel better because he thinks that it's his job to make her happy, when that's not our job, but there's something in us.
I mean, happy wife happy life and we, in anything, want to make our wives happy and that's a good thing, unless you're a real jerk, I guess, and you don't care. But it's so detrimental because that's not what they want. They want to be led spiritually in love. They want you to be with them, and the pain is the whole thing.
And I know for Josh and Kelli, what's really helped them is the Christian counseling and admitting they need it and rather than acting like they're super Christians, that we all need it. And then getting away making sure they get away and they just talk together, share together, journal.
I know for Josh who didn't do a lot of journaling, that's been so crucial for him. But acknowledging this is going to be hard. The enemy's going to try to tear us apart, I think, that's a big thing. Because most people, it just hits someone and they don't realize this is going to happen.
But they knew enough and had read enough to know that this is, "We're going to acknowledge, even as Christ followers who love the Lord, this is going to be really hard for us to stay close and we don't want satan to have any part of it." So they went right away to a Christian counselor and began to say, "What can we do to work on this?"
Dr. Kim: One thing I hear you saying is you've got to be intentional about it, it's just not going to happen. You've got to take some steps and begin to take those steps to get through the process because you just can't do that by yourself. What you said; community, Christian counseling, things that make such a difference when we go through something.
Even though, like you did say, too, Kerry, that you want to withdraw. You want to just get in that that cave with Elijah, like, "Move over, I'm coming in here too."
Kerry: Yes.
Dr. Kim: That's hard to do.
Chris: And you're going to do that at times.
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes.
Chris: And then the guilt and the shame becomes a cave of shame. I think sometimes you think, "I'm supposed to be really living for the Lord but I just feel miserable." And God just draws us out with that gentle whisper. And, so, that's one of the things, just bringing everything to God, and like you said, letting God have it when you're mad at Him. I'm talking with a friend who's going through some deep grief of losing his daughter and he said, "I'm so glad you told me I could be mad at God, and that's okay."
Dr. Kim: Wow.
Kerry: And I said, "It is." With God's grace, try to take that turn at the end, "God, I don't feel it. I hate it, but I know you're good. And, so, I'm going to keep trusting you."
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. Well, we talked a little bit, I think you did Chris, about just the one-day way of living with grief. Anything you would add to that?
Chris: I would just say that, especially, in the beginning it helps to know this is going to feel awkward. Everything we do now is going to feel awkward for a while. And somehow just the recognition of that managing our expectations. Oh, things aren't going to bounce right back to normal.
This happened, and, yes, we are changed now and things will be different knowing that reduce that. Even though we still felt awkward like, "Well, what should we do? When can we talk, when should we not?" Learning to give grace when others in the family are grieving differently and realizing that, "Yes, even though the way you're grieving might really hurt me it's okay."
An example I could give is that after Jude went to be with the Lord. Right away, she wanted to have pictures, make copies of the pictures that they did have of him, and put those up right there in the hall when you came in. Because she's so wanted, "This is our son, he always will be." Which is wonderful. For Josh, he almost could hardly bear to look at these pictures at first, it was just really hard. And realizing that sometimes the way that one person grieves might be harder for the other.
But they've learned to give each other such grace in that and to where, now, they both equally love looking at these pictures and God restores that. And you're able to not only just see the pain, but see the joy and the gift. Which is why we called the book the Gift of one Day because Jude lived for a day.
But instead of thinking, "We missed out on so much, Lord." And sure part of us does think that. But the bigger part that we've learned now is really, wow, what a gift. We got to be with Jude for one whole day and all the days in eternity, and what a gift, an undeserved gift that we could never deserve this. And what a great little boy that we are going to someday be with forever.
And, so, being patient and just reminding each other, "This isn't the end of the story." Keeping our eyes forward, and it's so beautiful, how when one of you is up, in a marriage or a family [Inaudible 00:39:20] and somebody is up, and can help the other one out and vice versa, and just like in the body of Christ. So I think learning to give grace has been a really big lesson we've learned as a family.
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good. I love the story about the pictures and the way that they looked at that differently. And we do grieve differently and it's not a right or wrong thing and that-
Chris: Exactly, just there's no right or wrong. And we've now, it's normal in our family to go by the cemetery, it's not a sad place. Of course, we miss him, but it's a place now where we can, it's not an awkward thing.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Chris: It's just we call it Jude spot, he's in heaven, this is Jude's spot. But just being able to say, "Thank you, God, thank you for this gift."
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, it's just amazing when I hear what you're saying about Jude, and the impact in that short period of time that he was alive. Whether inside of Kelli or the day that he was alive that he had, the purpose of his life, the meaning that it's had, and how it's touched people and helped you guys grow in ways that we don't want to grow that way, but you did. And you can see the blessing in it now. And, again, the hope that you have because you're going to see him again.
Kerry: Yes, and it is amazing because it's really helped me see a pastor who always thinks I'm supposed to do big, faith, things for God. Then God doesn't care if I do big things for Him, He doesn't need me, it's that He wanted big things in me. But Jude did God's will for 24 hours. He breathed for 24 hours and that's what God called him to do.
And it's really helped me, who's had thousands of days and many of them wasted, to realize that it's not a wasted day. Just to stay in God's will, trusting Him, and not try to do something big and great for Him. But let Him just do what He wants in me, and if He wants me to talk to that waiter in the restaurant and just ask him how he's doing. And, "Can I pray with you about anything." And that's God's will.
If God tells me to do that, that's God's will and that's more important than preaching to a lot of people. It's doing whatever God tells me to do that day, and God wanted you to breathe for 24 hours and He did it perfectly.
Dr. Kim: Wow, that's so powerful. Don't you get excited about seeing him someday and just really getting to see who he is and all those kind of things?
Chris: We can't wait.
Kerry: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's awesome. Well, let's switch over to marriage a little bit. What's the number one piece of marital advice that you would give to the people who are listening today?
Kerry: Mm, what would you?
Chris: I'd say keep talking is real practical and for us, it's just to keep talking. We've been married for 38 years and are still learning this lesson.
Kerry: Yes.
Chris: You'd think that after this much time we would be able to just finish each other's sentences and know everything else. But it turns out that both of us are always growing and always changing. One of the biggest mistakes we've made in marriage is to assume that, "Oh, I already know them."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Chris: They give up on the effort, we put a lot of effort in dating, right?
Kerry: Yes.
Chris: Like in the beginning you can't wait to get together. And then people get married, they think, "Whoa!" They find out more than they thought they wanted to know sometimes. But after a while you just think, "Oh, we know each other. We just know each other; you don't have to work at it anymore." And, so, a surprise for us as we near four decades of marriage is that we have to be incredibly intentional still.
Kerry: Yes.
Chris: Just so intentional and we talk a lot. It takes way more processing and working things out than most people could imagine that it takes. For us to just be on the same page and really grow together and help each other.
Kerry: Chris and I have always been so compatible and it's just that we've always, our marriage is good, we love the Lord. But we're learning that there's so much we still don't know. And, so, we have Christian counseling all the time because it helps us. That third person who's really experienced and loves Jesus, it helps us learn different ways to connect. And I feel like that our biggest thing is we want to be really connected, but we do it. We want that connection a lot of times and we express it in ways that really push each other apart. I know I'm the one who goes into the cave when conflict comes up-
Chris: And I'm the one who'll run after him saying, "Let's talk."
Kerry: She won't let me. And, so, it just becomes where we continue to do things with these great intentions of having this fear of losing this deep connection. And, yet, we do things, I'll hide, and I don't want her to totally know me because if she does, it's not going to be good. But, yet, the more I come clear with her about my heart and everything, the more we get closer. And really Chris is not settling, which is so good. I can just tend to settle in, I don't want that, but it comes in a natural way for me instead of supernatural.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. And I think for people to know you're pastor, huge church, all these kind of things. But you still have to work on your marriage and you just can't coast. I think I felt that early on, "Okay, we'll get this down in a couple of years and then we'll be fine." That was not true, that did not happen at all. And I think the fact that we change and God changes us, and I decided like 10 or 15 years ago, I will never know everything there is to know about my wife.
Kerry: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I just won't lifetime, there's not enough time. And so as long as I can keep that because I think what you said earlier is right, sometimes we just quit pursuing. Especially guys, we get that ring on her finger. That's what we're trying to do, get her to say, "I do." And then we go conquer something else as opposed to keep pursuing her. Which I've never seen a healthy marriage where the husband wasn't pursuing the wife.
Kerry: Right.
Dr. Kim: You just have to. So what's one thing that you're loving about your marriage today?
Kerry: I think we're at a whole new level of just knowing each other and being known. But we're also at a whole new level of being intentional and working at it. All the things that I would say, "Oh, we need to do this, we need to do this. We need to have a weekly time where we connect and really talk. We need to have these date nights." All these things I have let slip. And, so, now, we're going to a new level, every Monday, at 10 AM, we have our weekly check in and I just say, "How are we doing?"
And then we talk about the good things and the things that aren't going great. One of the things, for me, is learning how to listen. I wasn't a very good listener and I'm getting better. I'm still not, I've got a long way to go. But just being able to let Chris express what she's feeling without trying to fix it. Because when I hear her expressing something, I'll go like, "Oh, that's wrong, I got to fix it. Got to find [Inaudible 00:46:50]" And that's not what she's asking, she just wants me to understand.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, there's so much wisdom in that.
Kerry: But without that intentional time, we don't have time to practice it.
Dr. Kim: You just got to have time together, don't you? I mean, you've just got to set aside that uninterrupted time to spend together. I know that sometimes it first scares couples, but once you get into it you begin, I mean, I look forward to that time we spend every day. I look forward to sitting down with Nancy and just spending that time with her, and I'm like you, God's teaching me how to listen. I've counseled people for years and tell them how important it is to listen. And now He said, "It's time for you to figure this out, too."
Kerry: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I didn't tell all the right things to do.
Kerry: Yes, me too.
Chris: I've had women who would say, "It must be so wonderful having a husband who just listens and you must just sit at his feet and he must just..."
I say, "Well, he [Inaudible 00:47:40] he was not quite like that.
Dr. Kim: That's great. You guys, this has been a joy to hear the story, to hear about Jude, your son and daughter in law and how you guys have gone through this. The book is The Gift of One Day: How to Find Hope When Life Gets Hard and it's available everywhere. If people want to find you, other places that they can find you guys?
Kerry: They can go to-
Chris: giftofoneday.org
Kerry: Yes, giftofoneday.org. Gift g-i-f-tofoneday.org
Chris: Or just it's anywhere books are sold.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome.
Kerry: Or they can do wc.org which is our church.
Dr. Kim: And then you guys, you're on social media. I've seen it some great things on Facebook and then the church. Guys, thank you for your time. Thank you for just taking time for us, and thank you for the ministry and what you're doing. This is going to help a lot of people, I appreciate you.
Kerry: Thank you, Dr. Kim.
Chris: Thank you so much.
Kerry: We appreciate what you're doing, and it's so needed.
Dr. Kim: Thank you so much.
[00:48:48] < Outro >
Announcer: Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsey Few, with music by Noah Copeland. If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email, we encourage you to do so today.
Marriage is hard and life is busy, which is why we need rea, practical reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage. Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.
[00:49:25] < Music >