God's Design for Sex: Why Does A Gospel View of Sex Matter? with Joshua Ryan Butler | Ep. 579
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Well, welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. I'm so excited to have Joshua Ryan Butler join me. Josh is a pastor, he's the author of Beautiful Union: How God's Vision for Sex Points Us to the Good, Unlocks the True, and (Sort of) Explains Everything, that book is out now. As well as the acclaimed books that he's written, The Skeletons in God's Closet and The Pursuing God.
Together with his wife, Holly, and their three children, Josh enjoys spending time with good friends, over great meals, and exploring the scenic beauty of the Southwest. I am so excited for you to meet Josh. Let's go to the studio right now.
Well, I'm so excited today, Josh, to welcome you to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. So good to meet you. So good to get to spend time with you and talk about this new book, Beautiful Union, which I have read, and I think it's very good. And I'm anxious for people to hear more about that, and to also get a chance to get to meet you.
Josh: Thank you so much, Dr. Kim. It's great being here and getting the chance to meet you. I loved our conversation before the show just now, and I'm really looking forward to getting to dive in together. Thank you.
Dr. Kim: I am, too. Well, let's just dive into Beautiful Union. You talk about sex, in that book, with care and frankness. You share an idea, that shame around sex, which I think so many people deal with, that doesn't reflect God's vision, but rather it's this twisted perspective that our culture has given us of sex. So why is sex so widely misunderstood, not only in the world but in the church, too?
Josh: Yes, I think, one of the reasons is that we're often trained to look at sex, but not to look through it. Let me explain what I mean by that. We're trained to look at sex, partly because we live, today, in a pornified culture. Where we're constantly bombarded with images of bodies and so on, of sexualized images. Whether we're on Netflix shows, or Instagram, or TikTok.
The reality of our world is that skin sells, people will use sexualized images to try and market things. And that's led to this reality, we're bombarded by these images, in this highly sexualized culture. And another aspect of being trained to look at sex can, sometimes, be in church culture, where we can just have emphasis on controlling behavior. There's the sense, like, "My body is dangerous, and so I just need to control my behavior and keep the rules so that God doesn't get mad." Maybe that's the perception some might have.
But I believe the Gospel invites us into something different that is, actually, much greater than that. It invites us to not only look at sex, but to look through it to greater things.
And, so, one of the ideas I really try and explore in the book, is how God has designed sex to be, you could say, iconic or like a window into these greater realities. Realities like the union of heaven and earth.
And, so, in Genesis 1, I explore how God has made a male and female, but we enter into a world that's made for diversity and union. And, so, in Genesis 1 we see that God also makes these other pairs that fit together. So the pairs of heaven and earth, land and sea, night and day. And one of these that's so beautiful is that we find the most beautiful places in creation, are where these two become one.
So you think of the sunset and sunrise, as that moment where day and night come together and merge, and there's this glorious splendor in their union. It's a beautiful union that gives rise to sunset and sunrise and just the glory that...
My family, we all love going out and taking walks, at sunset, and just observing the beauty that emerges when those two become one. Or you could think of the coast where land and sea come together, and that's like most expensive property, real estate, anywhere in the world. It's where we all want to go on vacation.
But that's where the continents and the ocean kind of merge, these two become one, God's creation of land and sea. And even on smaller scales, you think of where river and rock caress, or where soil and stream collide. That's where beauty is formed and life merges, those places of diversity and union.
And, finally, I also think of heaven and earth, where you have like the mountaintop. And throughout the Bible, we see the mountaintop as sacred space. Where God often comes down to meet His people and His people come up to meet with Him. And in the bigger picture, Jesus teaches us to pray, "God, your kingdom come, your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven." He's teaching us to pray for the union of heaven and earth. The coming together, where these two become one. God's sphere and our sphere come together as one.
And I believe that God has created us, male and female, as a sign or a window, in Genesis 1. To say it's designed to point to all these greater realities of the beauty of the world that God's made, that we live in, and there's much more to it. It's also man and woman, husband and wife, are a picture of the union of Christ and the church. How children and the procreative aspect of sex, are a window into our new life from the Spirit, the fruitfulness of life in God's kingdom.
It's one of the primary images that's used throughout Scripture, especially, in the New Testament, for our life from the Spirit of God. The Spirit's work in our lives. And all that to say we live in a culture, both our world's culture and church culture, that often trains us to look at sex. But the gospel invites us to look through it into these bigger, greater, beautiful, realities where we can see just the glory that God has invested.
Dr. Kim: That's so cool, as you're talking, it's almost like poetry, when you talk about it in that way. Heaven and earth, and the skyline, and the sun rising, and night and day, and all those things that we all know are beautiful images, and to see how all that comes together. And I love what you say about being able to look through sex because I don't think we think about that very much.
Josh: Mh-hmm, yes, I love that phrase you used, the poetry. I like to say God has written His poetry into our bodies. Even He's created our bodies, male and female, as a sign of these greater realities that are so beautiful and are embedded, interwoven with the nature of the gospel, and God's purposes for His world. And I feel like part of what this points to is that God's love for the world, our destiny, the thing we were made for is union with God. That's the greater union. And that points to why, man, singleness is also so highly revered.
Even though the Bible has this high vision for sex, and marriage, and all, it also has a very high, equally high vision for singleness. And it's saying you don't need to, necessarily, be married or have sex in order to have these things. Because marriage can show us the shape of the gospel, of God's desire for union with us. But in singleness, too, because singleness can encounter and rely on Christ and the power of the gospel. That we get the movie, so to speak, without the sneak preview, we can have the reality that it points to even our own individual.
So even if we're in a hard marriage or sex and marriage are a source of pain, or shame and brokenness in our lives. The beauty of God's vision is that you can get those greater realities that it points to, even if your own experience of the sign has, maybe, been painful and all that. We're all invited in Christ, into this greater union with God that we were made for. And that's really the ultimate, the greater reality that God has designed sex and marriage to point to, is this all of life union together with Him as our maker.
Dr. Kim: Yes, the Song of Solomon, I think, gives us a picture. But, sometimes, we don't go past that when we're talking about sex in the Bible. "Wait, I'll read Song of Solomon or a few of the Proverbs and stuff." But I love the way you said it, it does lead us to God when we look through it like that. So a little bit of a side, but not really, why has the church not embraced that? That's, maybe, a hard question, but they just haven't.
Josh: Yes, that's a good question, I think there's, probably, a variety of reasons. Because, historically, and globally, the church often has. But it seems like often, today, I find in much of our modern church culture, we're missing this broad tradition, that points to the beauty that God has written into our bodies, into marriage, into sex. And I feel like, sometimes, it's because we are, how to say, we can be very focused on just the practical. So when we think of sex, like, "How do I have a quote-unquote 'Good sex life'?"
I think of being a kid and growing up, and we would walk through the grocery store, and you'd see all the magazines on the newsstand. And suddenly you're starting to here like, "Hey, here's seven tips to a great sex life." Or things like that. And, so, we're surrounded in a culture that's very focused on the pragmatic. It looks at sex as just only a means to the end of personal pleasure.
I believe pleasure is part of God's design, but it's only one piece of a much bigger picture. And, sometimes, in the church, I feel like we've allowed that cultural emphasis to restrict our vision. And, sometimes, we only think of, "Well, how do we create a Christian version of 10 tips to a greater sex life?"
So we can end up just getting focused on, maybe, the practical side of it, which is important. The practical is important.
Or we can go, "Man, we're afraid of sex because we've seen the damage it can do, when it's done wrong." And, so, we can have a very just-control-your-behaviors mindset. Where we end up in this kind of catch-22, where it's like the culture is telling you to just go, release your desires, do whatever you want, just go have fun, please yourself. And the church can often be saying, "No, starve your desires. Press it all down, just ignore that, pretend that's not there."
But I think the gospel, actually, invites us into something greater, which is to redirect our desires towards God, towards that greater reality. To actually turn and recognize, "Man, that desire that I have, what's the desire beneath the desire?"
I think beneath the desire for sex is often a desire for intimacy, for communion, for belonging. A desire to know and be known, a desire to feel loved, to feel wanted, to feel respected. And those are all good things that we were made for but, ultimately, we were made for them with God. And without that, we can end up searching for them in romantic relationships that can never, ultimately, fulfill at that deepest level.
And the beauty, when we find those things in God, that union with God, it frees us up to be a better spouse. Because we're not turning our spouse into an idol that we need to get everything from. We're receiving that from God, and then we can love our spouse as a picture of Christ's great love for us. But it's more of an overflow.
Dr. Kim: I love the way you put that because that's true. And, sometimes, you're right, we depend on our spouse to get not only pride and sex, but in other things to meet needs that only God can meet, and God intends to meet for us. Nancy grew up with a very rigid background. Well-meaning mom, but three daughters and trying to keep them pure. And, so, there was a very negative towards sex, and the church she was in was also trying to control everything.
And, so, then, we brought that into marriage, and it was hard because I didn't understand that. I'd been waiting for 22 years to have sex with my wife and to enjoy that, and as we worked through that, God taught us a lot.
When you get past just the physical, which is great, I mean, awesome the way God created our bodies to respond in sex. But to see the deeper part of it, to see the spiritual part of it, the emotional, what a connection God gives us. And, I agree, it's that picture of what we have with Him, of that intimacy and closeness that He wants for us. And that, ultimately, I loved when you brought up the singles, because God has those things for us, with our relationship with Him.
Josh: Yes.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome.
Josh: I mean, I've been married about 17 years now, we're going up on 18 this month, and even when we've hit rocky seasons or hard seasons. I found, man, I can encounter still that depth of intimacy, and love, affection with God, that gives me the internal resources I need in order to be able to love my wife better and same for her.
Man, my wife, Holly, she has the most deep, intimate, profound relationship with Jesus that is so powerful. And the way that I get to encounter Christ's love for me through her is so great. But she's told me, she's like, "Josh, I'm glad that you look to God first rather than me. Because if you were just looking to me for everything, that's too much a weight for me to bear." And looking to encounter those things, ultimately, from Christ frees me up to be a better husband, and frees her up to not feel the weight and pressure of needing to be everything for me, in that way.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and as you were saying that, I was just thinking about that a lot of that's why people get divorced now. They're expecting their spouse to meet needs that only God can meet. And when you get to that point, where you let God meet those needs that He intends to meet and let your spouse be a conduit of that or part of that, with you, then, that makes a big difference. Because our spouses are going to let us down.
Josh: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I've let Nancy down much more than she lets me down. And when you said that about your wife being more spiritual, most guys I know say, "Yes, my wife is more spiritual than I am." So it's just something as guys, we got to work on a little bit, for sure.
Josh: Yes.
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Dr. Kim: So why is there so much shame in Christian culture around sex? And it becomes, then, this hot-button issue.
Josh: Yes, that's great. Well, I think, maybe, a starting point, for me, is to recognize that valuable things are a target. So one of the chapters I'm writing in my hometown of Portland, Oregon, and I comment how I'm not too worried about a terrorist attack while I'm here. Because they're probably looking at Los Angeles, and New York. But I don't know they're going to attack Portland unless they got a thing against hipsters because we're not that big of a location.
But the idea there is the enemy targets something because of its great value, and because of the great value that God has invested in sex and marriage, and all. To, actually, be such a powerful reflection and pointer of His love for us, as Christ as His church. Because of that, it's under enemy attack. The enemy is out for that. And one of the things that C. S. Lewis said that I love was to the effect of, "Because love is a stronger angel, therefore, when it falls it's, also, a fiercer devil."
So the idea being that something that God has made for so much good and to point to so much good. That when the experience of that becomes fractured, or broken, or corrupt, either because of our sin or others sin against us, that can just really leave wounds and a mark. And, so, in my own life, historically, and with so many people that I've walked with, as a pastor, over the last few decades. I've just found that for many of us, we're walking with wounds, and sexual wounds tend to run extremely deep.
For some, that might be the horror of sexual abuse or sexual trauma, in your history. Where horrible things that were done to us and we, increasingly, realize the prevalence of how, tragically, common that is. And the need to speak with great care to those wounds and the wounds that are there. And that's not something that anyone should feel ashamed of that we carry that woundedness. That when we approach the conversation around sex, it can become a very painful and difficult one.
Also, at times, if you've grown up in an environment that was like you mentioned earlier, very, kind of, just keep the rules so God doesn't get mad at you. That can create another problem, as well. A culture of shame in some of our churches, rather than a culture of grace. Where it's almost like there can be the sense that it can make people feel like they're quote-unquote, "damaged goods."
So that if they've got sexual sin in their past or something in their past. There can almost be, maybe, it's not said, but it can be implied, almost like that carries more weight than the goodness and grace of Christ for us. And the beauty of the Gospel is that Jesus's goal, in the Gospel, is not to beat you up over your past, it's to fight for your future.
He's actually come to liberate us, and restore, and redeem us, and He's for us. He's come for us, and He can meet us in the depths of the mistakes we've made or things that we've done. He can meet us in the wounds and the pain of things that were done to us. And the beauty of the Gospel, as well, is, I believe, when it comes to sexual faithfulness.
The goal of sexual faithfulness is not to make God love you, it's to reflect God's great love for you. We're not trying to earn God's love by being sexually faithful. We're trying to reflect the greatness of God's love, His character. And since we look at who God is for us in Christ, God's love, He is faithful, He is committed, He is secure, He is stable, He is generous, He is self-giving, He is sacrificial.
He welcomes us, He gives himself to us. And He gives himself to us not to use us for what He can get from us, but to, actually, bring us into life with Him, in which we're lifted up and cared for. And He puts our needs, as His bride, above His own.
And, so, there's just this beauty, and when we see the faithful, committed, sacrificial love that God has for us. What we're invited to in sexual faithfulness, that's to reflect that love that we've encountered in Christ, in how we live with our spouse.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. Scripture says that "Marriage is a mystery," like Christ and the Church. So kind of unpack the unique importance of each spouse's role in that metaphor? What does that mean?
Josh: Great, yes, so that's Ephesians 5:31-32, where Paul says, "Hey, this is a great mystery." And He first, though, he quotes Genesis one and two. So he's quoting the opening pages of Scripture, and he says, back then in Genesis, it says, "For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." And Paul's quoting that and saying, "This is a great mystery, but this points to Christ and the Church."
What's interesting, if you go back into the Genesis context, that leave and cleave language is marriage language. So Paul's talking about marriage here. Similar language is used for our relationship with God, that Israel was called to leave all the other idols and cleave to God alone, in covenant, and it's like a marriage covenant. And, similarly, God said, "I will never leave you or forsake you." Instead, God clings to us in covenantal love.
And, so, Paul's saying that the marriage, the leaving cleave language, but also the one flesh, that "The two will become one flesh." And that's language for conjugal union, historically, actually, the bodily union of a husband and wife, also points to Christ and the church.
So what Paul is saying here, in Ephesians five, is that both the all-of-life union, in the covenant of marriage, and the bodily union of a husband and wife that consummates that marriage, that both point to Christ and the Church. And some of the way I think that that plays out is that when we think of sex, in marriage, that sex is mutual, self-giving.
That both the husband and wife give to one another and both receive from each other. And one of the language I like to use, and I use in the book to explore this, is the language of generosity and hospitality. And how a husband and wife, both, extend generosity to one another, giving their bodies to each other. And a husband and wife, both, extend hospitality to each other, welcoming the body of the other. And, yet, there's also sacred symbolism, what we might call an iconography of the body.
There's a sacred symbolism that God has inscribed in our bodies. And, so, there's a powerful picture here, where the husband, and I believe husbands are called to give themselves to their wives with generosity, and this generosity is emotional, it's spiritual, it's physical, it's mental. That as a husband, you are called to give yourself to your wife, sacrificially, to serve her as your bride. To put her needs above your own, in a posture of generosity that lifts her up in a manner analogous to how Christ has lifted up, and served, and cared for us, as the church.
And, similarly, for wives, there's this picture here where the wife welcomes the body of her husband. Welcomes him not only to herself, but within herself, and there's a powerful picture there that's beautiful. There's a picture of welcoming her husband to be with her at that place of vulnerability, intimacy, and communion.
And I know some people hear the language of hospitality, these days, and we think of Martha Stewart or 1950s domesticity, or that kind of thing, and that's not what we're talking about. Hospitality is a rich theological term, that's rooted in the God who prepares a table and welcomes us into a life with Him. And it also implies agency that you choose who you invite into your house, and your home, and when you invite them.
So this is not saying that wives need to give your husband sex whenever he wants, it's not saying that. No, you have agency in when you want to enter the marital embrace, and husbands need to respect that and honor that.
And, man, again, you're seeking as husband to put your bride's needs above your own, and if you're not doing that, you're not reflecting Christ. And for wives, the reality is if you don't feel the freedom to say no, that's a problem with your husband, not you. Because, I think, we need to acknowledge that marital rape, and sexual abuse in marriage are real, and they're evil, and there are resources out there to help.
But big picture hospitality speaks to this vulnerability with someone that you trust, in a context of safety and commitment. Where a wife allows her husband to come close enough, to play a part in her own intimate release of joy, and caring for her, and putting her needs above his own. And big picture there, what we see is that giving and receiving are at the heart of sex.
Husband and wife, again, they both give to one another. Both receive from each other, both extend generosity to each other, both extend hospitality, welcoming each other. And, yet, there's this symbolism inscribed in our bodies, in this one flesh union of male and female. I believe Paul is saying that that male and female, in one flesh union as husband and wife, that's designed to point to something greater. Which is the beauty of our union with Christ as His church.
Dr. Kim: For years, I've talked to guys about serving your spouse, but I love putting generosity to it. Because I think that adds even more to that idea of us serving our wives, in that way, and all the things that go into generosity. It's not just serving because I can check it off a list, it's like being generous and just looking for opportunities to go overboard, almost, with that.
I love that, it's so good. And the whole idea of giving/receiving together, and it always comes back to pointing to God. It's so good, how He gives us so much in our lives that point to Him, and we just have to acknowledge that. And I don't think we've done that real well with the sexual relationship.
Josh: Yes, I agree.
Dr. Kim: So how does a biblical vision for sex elevate each spouse's experience, in the relationship? What's going to change there?
Josh: That's great, yes, for a husband, it says you are called to put your wife's needs above your own. I've talked, tragically, to so many couples, counseling things where this can happen to either the wife or the husband. But, more generally, I found that it's often women that can feel used by their husbands in sex. And, man, a husband who just is using his wife just for sexual release. He's not only bad at sex, he's failing to image Christ well.
No, if you want to image Christ well, as a husband, you're called to put her needs, as your bride, above your own. That you're called to give yourself, as you said, generously to your spouse, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, all of who you are to lift her up, and care for her, and serve her.
And, so, I believe that that is to be done in a context of safety, and commitment, and care. And, so, it impacts the experience that way. And I found, as a husband, actually, that when I am living out of that posture. I have a greater experience in that, as well, in a couple of senses. But one is it becomes a part of my own spiritual formation of learning to love as Christ loves, and put someone's needs above your own, and to, actually, seek to live into that.
It becomes a beautiful place where Christ is forming our character. And, similarly, I believe for wives, it says that, "Your pleasure and experience matter." That her pleasure is as important a part of the marital embrace as his. I found that some people have grown up, maybe, heard some damaging messages.
Some wives I've talked to have encountered these damaging messages, almost like your only goal is to just be sexually available for him, and it's more about his pleasure release. And that's, no, that's wrong. The gospel vision, these greater things that we see it's designed to point to, they're marked by mutuality, by consent, by reciprocity, by freedom, by joy.
And, so, if we miss this, it can reveal either an issue in his heart, as a husband, that needs to be addressed, or whatever spouse is acting that way. Or it can reveal a cultural distortion, that maybe she's been told or they've been told, that needs to be addressed. But the power of how we're addressing this here is, it's not just like some tips from a magazine. This is actually the gospel is framing how we are to be able to care for one another well, as spouses in marriage.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. It made me think The Puritan culture, at one time, how they would say "Have sex, but have it to have children and almost don't enjoy it." And, so, the church has misrepresented that. I'm not talking negative about any of them. But it's so much there's been that part of it, where the church just couldn't wrap their mind around the beauty of sex, and that it is, sure it's for procreation, that's one of the reasons God gave it to us. If we didn't have that, you and I wouldn't be here.
But the fact that it's to be enjoyed, and that is one of the things I love in Song of Solomon, it's just when you see them really enjoying each other, in a sexual relationship, and how he serves her in that, it gives us such a beautiful picture there. And to know that the wife enjoyment is so important, equally important, maybe more, I don't know. Sometimes, I think, culture has done such a bad job, especially, in the media, making us think that women and men get attracted in the same way, and it's not.
And, so, as guys, if we expect our wives to be just like us. Well, yes, we're not going to serve them in the way, I think, God intends in the sex relationship. There's so much God has for us to learn through the sexual relationship; of how we love, and care for, and treat each other, and He models it for us.
Josh: Definitely, I love that as well. Speaking, generally, not universal, but generally, that how men experience that pleasure and how women can work a little bit differently. And that requires husbands to, again, really serve your wife, put her needs before your own, and slow down, and care for your wife well, to bring her to that place.
Another great book I've been reading recently, Gary Thomas and Debra Fileta, their book, Married Sex, and they talk a lot about that in there. How the husbands and wives in general, and just some of the different ways that sexual desire can work, and how to cultivate that well, for a healthy sex life in your marriage, together. Where you're both really getting to experience that intimacy in a way that's mutually pleasurable, and beneficial, and life-giving to both spouses.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love that, and it is. As guys, it helps us learn to slow down, like you said, and learn what really does make my wife drawn to me, what does give her pleasure. I had a guy, one time, in a class, and he said the best sex was when he cleaned the toilets. And I guess it goes back to Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages. She hated to clean the toilets, and he just became a rock star, and she couldn't keep her hands off of him because he took time to clean the toilets for her.
And, so, taking time. I think, sometimes, we think things that are not sexual to us, as guys, at all really are to our wives, just because they're wired different than we are.
Josh: Yes, there can be, in general, I've found in my marriage, my own experience is that for my wife, when she feels emotionally connected to me, that it leads stronger to a desire for physical connection, as well. And, for me, it can often be the inverse, when I feel physically connected to her, it helps cultivate that emotional connection as well. And I think that's part of the power, it's when we move towards one another.
For me, I've really sought to prioritize, over the years, in our marriage, since I learned that, just really seeking to cultivate that emotional intimacy and affection with my wife, as something that's so important for both of us. But for her, she really experiences that as love language.
Dr. Kim: I think it's why so many women I've talked to, when their husband begins to pray with them. Not that that becomes sexual, but it draws them to us, just a connection. That is so cool.
Josh: Yes, I love that. My wife and I love to pray together. We often will bring our fears together before God, or things we're struggling with before God, or just our thanksgiving for things He's given us.
But I found just that power of sharing life together. One practice that my wife and I have done for years, that I've always loved. At the end of every day is we'll, basically, just walk through our day together. So, usually, we'll start with, "Hey, so what happened today?" And what I found is it seems just very mundane, and "She's not going to want to know about that." Or what did I even do, again?
But as I begin walking through this conversation with this person or this thing I was working on. There's something about sharing the details, it tends to lead, then, more into like, "Oh, and this is how I felt about that, or this is what happened with that." And the more, kind of, even those mundane things lead to a sharing of life together. And we found just cultivating an intimacy of, actually, knowing what happened with my wife today?
What was she thinking about?
What was she feeling?
What was her experience like today?
And those things that can seem mundane are, actually, really cultivating an intimacy where it's like I feel known by my wife, at a deep level. And she feels known by me because we're processing and walking through life together. And that emotional intimacy, I think, when you're connected that way, can lead to much greater physical intimacy and things as well, it changes the nature. I think, both husbands and wives are less prone to feel like they're either being used or just using the other physically, when you have that strong emotional intimacy and connection.
Dr. Kim: Yes, for us, I think, sex is the end result of all of those things that you're talking about. That time we spend together, in evening when I get home, and things like that, that continue to draw. I can't remember exactly who said it. But he said, "It's what happens the other 23 and a half hours a day, that makes a difference in what happens in the bedroom." And it's so true. And that just allows us to serve each other, to care for each other in the way God teaches us to. And, then, it's fulfilled in the sexual relationship, in a really beautiful way.
Josh: Yes, Amen, that's great.
Dr. Kim: That's so cool. So Scripture tells us God created humans, male and female, and we see them pitted in competition. We get hung up with these gender differences. Why is it important and so good, that God created us uniquely male and female?
Josh: Definitely, well, one important point to start off is just realize how significant this is. That this is on the opening pages of the Bible, there's an emphasis God created us male and female, with an ability to become one flesh, and to fruitfully multiply in life-giving union. And all of this is wrapped up mysteriously, somehow, in relation to the image of God. This calling of humans to reflect God well into the world.
And, so, part of the picture here, the beauty of male and female is that, together, we're designed to point to greater things. And this is way more than just sex and marriage, but it points, at one level, I think, to an interdependence, that humanity is made interdependently. God didn't create the men on Venus and the women on Mars, and then kind of make a spaceship to bring them together.
The way that we all got here was through the union of male and female. You mentioned this earlier, "Without male and female, you and I wouldn't exist." It's bound up in the very design. For listeners, you may not be a husband or a father, and you may not be a wife or a mother, but we are all someone's child. We have all come into existence through the union of male and female. And we each have threaded through our DNA, and our blood, and bone, we are made, created, God has created us, woven our being together, through the union of male and female.
And, so, that speaks to an interdependence in the human social body, that reality, going all the way back to Adam. Scripture says, "We're all united in, Adam, because God pulled Eve from Adam, and then pulled the rest of us from their union." So there's a sense of the unity of the human race, which means because of male and female, I am connected. And you are connected to an 89-year-old grandmother in Beijing, China, to a 23-year-old migrant worker, in the fields of Nigeria.
Those listening are connected in some profound way to my daughter and sons, here in Phoenix, Arizona because humanity is one. We've been generated, created, given life, through the union of male and female, throughout the whole human social body. So the power of male and female speaks, partly, to our interdependence, as the human race, the human community. I think it also speaks, again, it points to this reality that we were made for intimacy, community, and belonging. Male and female are how families, at least biological families, are formed.
Now, I'm an adoptive father, as well. Adoption is so powerful and it makes one truly family, I talk about in the book. But generally speaking, we see that the union of male and female is how families are formed. And one of the tragic realities is that so many of our experiences in family, have been so broken. Whether through abuse, or abandonment, or neglect, or just painful family dynamics, different backgrounds. And, so we get the weight of sin, and the fall, and all these tragic realities that mark our families.
But there's this reality, though, that God's design for the family is that we would, actually, experience intimacy, community, belonging, love. That we would, actually, know and be known within this context of care in a family, that reflects in some profound ways the beauty of the triune God. That God is a communion of love from eternity, the Father, Son, and Spirit.
God is not some isolated, lonely, independent person, God is a communion of love. Three persons, one nature and substance, together in perfect unity. And I argue, in the book, that God has designed us, the human family, as an echo or a faint reflection of that. Where we share one substance or nature; human nature, and flesh, and bone. And, yet, we are also three persons; father, mother, child. That we're designed to be a communion of love that reflects the intimacy, and community, and belonging that we were made for with God.
And, so, God has made us male and female with profound importance, to speak to that our interdependent nature as a human race. To speak to the intimacy and belonging that we are made for in family, and to point to all these greater realities that God's designed for His world, heaven and earth, Christ and the church.
Dr. Kim: Yes, in the culture we live in, that's so angry. Just that picture of if we could just lay that template over the world, and people embrace that, what a difference that would make, but our culture fights that. I'd love to see us find a way to pull that back together.
Josh: Yes, well, maybe, one other angle, man, so there's our cultural reality and then looking to, "Okay, well, what resources does God give us to reclaim a beautiful, transcendent, big reality?" And one of the phrases I use in the book is the phrase diversity-in-union.
You know that male and female are made diverse, but for unity, and how that points to just all these greater realities. We've talked about heaven and earth, we've talked about Christ and the church. When we look forward to the end of history, that the goal that God is bringing history towards is diversity and union.
So in Revelation 21 and 22, we see that the end is God brings the union of heaven and earth, as God brings His kingdom down. Where God is reconciling God and humanity, dwell together in unity forever. And there's this picture there, where it's depicted as a wedding, the end of the world is a wedding. Where God is uniting heaven and earth, and He's bringing this diversity into the union of heaven and earth. God and humanity, the nations of east and west, good folks, bad folks, who they're just because of God's grace.
And, so, diversity-in-union speaks to our destiny. The wedding of the Lamb, the end of history for the Church in Christ. It speaks to, I believe, the Trinity, as we mentioned, that God is a communion of love, distinct persons, but in perfect communion. I think it speaks to the greatness of Christ who brings together the greatest polarities, like divinity and humanity in His very person. And it speaks to our identity as the Church, that we are diverse and united.
We are one kingdom made up of every nation, tribe, and tongue. We're one body made up of many members or parts. We're animated by one spirit, yet, having a diversity variety of gifts. And all that to say that male and female become this window into all these powerful things. Heaven and earth, the Kingdom, the Trinity, Christ, the Church, the life that we are made for with God.
They're really like this sacred signposts that God's given, that points to all these greater realities. Which means that with male and female, it's a sacred, beautiful, intentional, design of God. That's almost like a clue or a window, to point us to all these greater things that speak to His heart for diversity-in-union.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. And when we embrace that, seek that, it changes everything in our lives, not only our marriages, sex. But just that whole perspective of we have a God that loves us that much, and has these different ways that He communicates with us, and reveals Himself to us, and draws us into Him.
Josh: Yes.
Dr. Kim: That is so beautiful. Let's talk about what sex is meant to be. As a counselor, I see sex be a pain point, in a lot of marriages, for some of the reasons we've talked about. With abuse, things have happened to people throughout their life before marriage and, sometimes, into marriage. Let's talk about that disconnect.
Josh: Yes, definitely. Well, one of the reasons that it can be such a pain point is because it is so personal. It hits so close to home; it really is so personal. So, I think of one couple I was counseling. They were newlyweds, just going into marriage, and one spouse had way more of a sexual history, in their past, with different partners and on and forth. And they came into the marriage feeling a lot of shame, and guilt, and the weight of, like, "I feel like I'm bringing this history into our marriage."
But the other spouse had had no sexual experience in their past, prior to marriage. But, ironically, was wrestling very much with feeling clumsy, or “they know what they're doing and, I don't,” or “how do I compare to these other people?" And the point simply to be that both of them had very different experiences, backgrounds and all. And, yet, for both, those experiences were so personal. And, then, as they're stepping now as newlyweds into marriage, and bringing their history together.
It can be painful, and awkward, and clumsy at times because we're trying to go, "How do we join our two lives together as one? And how do we do so in the midst of all of our own insecurities, all of our difficulties, in our past. All of our pain points from our histories and all?" And, maybe, for others the pain points weren't even sexual.
But maybe it was just people have betrayed their trust or they've been through all sorts of letdowns, in a variety of ways. And now there's this danger or this challenge of going, "Can I really trust this person that I've committed my life to?"
I think another reason related to all that is that sex and marriage and all that, sex can be awkward to talk about. It seems to me that there are, maybe, two different cultural mindsets. On the one hand, I've encountered many folks who, maybe, grew up in a church culture. Where you don't talk about sex, it's off limits, it's too awkward. It's kind of icky, or gross, or yucky, or whatever, you don't talk about.
And, then, on the other hand, I find myself in, I'm from Portland, which is more of a progressive, sex positive, "Do what makes you feel good." That's sort of the cultural mindset is just, "Do whatever you want, do what makes you feel good." And there's very explicit talk about sex everywhere. I think it's the per capita, the most strip clubs in the nation. And, so, way more direct.
And now I live in kind of a party school, a college town, where it feels like talking about sex is very direct. But what you can have in either of those environments, still, is that in one environment you step into marriage and it's hard to talk about sex. Because it can feel awkward, or icky, or gross, or you're not supposed to. Or even if someone never explicitly told you that, you can just implicitly feel like, "I don't feel like I'm supposed to talk about this."
Or, on the other hand, it's been talked about so much, but in a way that also makes you feel like, "Well, now, am I supposed to talk about it with my spouse in the same way? When out there it feels kind of, maybe, talked about very directly, but in a way that doesn't really feel healthy. And I think that one of the most powerful things I've found has been good communication between spouses, and just breaking down that barrier.
Breaking down the awkward communication barrier, and talking about it. Talking about what our experience of this is like together. Talking about what we don't want and don't like, or what we do. And being able to share with our spouse, I think, is one more way to cultivate that emotional intimacy that we talked about earlier. Because we're actually letting them into our thoughts, our feelings, our desires, our emotions, the experience. And learning to talk well, with good communication about sex, can help overcome some of those pain points.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, because so many couples don't talk about it. One of the things I do, in premarital counseling, is ask them to share with each other, what they look forward to most in their sexual relationship just to get a conversation going. Because in counseling, sometimes, the only time people say, "Well, yes, we talk about it, it's when we're fighting over frequency or something like that. So those are not healthy conversations that help the sex life.
But just like anything else that we want to cultivate, and grow, and get everything God has for us in our marriage. Sex doesn't just happen, we're so different. And I remember thinking, "Okay, I thought I knew a lot about women."
But I didn't know anything about Nancy, and I had to learn about her. When I made that, it made all the difference in the world. And those are just to encourage people, it may be awkward at first, I get that. But those are some of the best conversations we have because it's on a real intimate level. And, then, you get to follow through with what you're talking about. What you've learned, you get to apply to each other, and that's really a beautiful thing.
Josh: Mm, that's great, definitely.
Dr. Kim: I love that. So why does it matter so much to have a biblical view of sex and marriage? Maybe people are listening and they're going, "Well, some of that makes sense. Do I really want to look into this biblical view of sex, that Josh is talking about?" So what does it change? Does it change things? Does it change things, practically, for couples?
Josh: I think it does. One of the ways I put in the book is, it helps us move from a rule-keeping mindset to an image-bearing mindset. Right. And what I mean by that is a rule-keeping mindset is, again, it's like, "I just got to keep the rules to keep God happy." I mean, I'm not saying rules are bad. God gives us good rules, "Don't commit adultery." God gives us rules, almost like boundaries that let you know, "Hey, if you cross that line, you're going somewhere dangerous, that leads to destruction."
So the rules are good, they're there for a reason, but they're there to protect. They're not a way to go try and earn God's love. They're there to protect something deeper at the center, which is the image of God. Our highest human vocation, as image bearers is to reflect God well into the world.
And, so, when we get this biblical vision of God's character and who He is, a God who is faithful, who is committed, who is sacrificial, who is generous, who is all in with us, who all these things. Then it becomes, "Okay, this is actually an opportunity." How I approach sexual faithfulness becomes an opportunity to reflect the image and character of God to my spouse, or in my singleness, to a watching world.
And, so, when I think, for example, you could think of what's wrong with adultery? What's going on? Part of it is, yes, it hurts your spouse and all, but it's not only that. It's also that you are failing to reflect the faithfulness of God's character because God is a God who doesn't cheat. God is a God who is faithful to us, who is not going anywhere. He's with us through thick and thin, and He will never betray His bride.
So I can now approach, "No, I don't want to commit adultery because I want to reflect the character of God to my spouse." And that means that not only am I not going to cheat but I'm, actually, going to seek to be faithful and committed and reflect God's sacrificial, pursuing, love to my spouse. Even when we hit hard points in our marriage. Or I can think about premarital sex or extramarital sex, if you're single, and you're going, "What's wrong with it, really? In this day and age, is it really bad?
Well, if we shift from a rule-keeping mindset and we go to an imagery-mindset goes, "Well, man, God is a God who commits to us before He unites with us. God is a God who is all in. He says, "I am with you. I will be with you as my people through thick and thin. I'll be with you in good times and bad, in sickness and health. And nothing, not even death, will be able to separate us."
So God is committed. He commits to His spouse before He unites with His spouse, with us as His bride, and we're called to reflect that love. We're called to commit to someone before you unite with them. The leave and cleave comes before one flesh.
We're called to leave and cleave to commit ourselves to someone, before we enter into that bodily union. Because when we do that we're, actually, reflecting the covenantal nature of the God who is committed to us. And I find this just really powerful and inspiring because if you give me, "All right, these are the rules, don't break them." All right, I'll see how close I can get to the boundary, the fence, without going over.
But if you give me a God to reflect, then, now it's going, "Oh, man, I want to draw closer in intimacy with Christ. I want to learn His character, know His character, and I want to grow in my own spiritual formation to become the kind of person who can reflect that kind of love to my spouse. Who can be sexually faithful in whatever season of life I'm in, as a way of honoring and reflecting the character of God."
Dr. Kim: Wow, that is so powerful, and it's such a different way of looking at it, at coming at it. It changes everything, doesn't it? I mean, going from the rule keeping, which most of us rebel against rules, at one point or other, in our lives just because they're rules. But to change that into reflecting God and who He is, and the love He has for us. Sharing that with someone that God put in your life to do life with, that's really powerful, really good.
We're almost to the end, but before I ask you the last question. There are three things on your profile, website, that I don't know how many people ask you those questions. I want to know when you got ran over by a VW van.
Josh: All right, sorry, Mom, if you're listening. So, I was in a 7th grade, 6th 7th grade, I think it was junior high. So I was a kid, and we had one of those old, big, red Volkswagen van, with the sliding door. And my cousin and, I think, we had just watched Rambo or some movie like that. We wanted to pretend like we were soldiers hanging out the side of a helicopter, with our legs hanging out the edge.
And, so, we had the door open, our legs over the side, and we're like, "Mom, can we just drive down the street a little way like this?" And she's like, "Okay." She wanted to let us have a little fun. So we're driving with that, but as we're pulling out, my cousin is swinging his legs, and they kicked into mine. And, so, my legs kicked in, and one caught the tire or whatever, and it sucked me out.
And, so, I got sucked out of this Volkswagen van. And my mom, out of the corner of her eye, she saw me go out. And, so, she slams on the brakes, she hits the brakes, and she stops it right on top of my foot, and she's too afraid to go anywhere. So I got this big Volkswagen van, with five kids inside, my cousin and all these kids are inside, and it's just sitting on top of my foot, and she doesn't want to move because she don't want to make it worse. And, so, she says, "Is everything okay? Where is he?" And, finally, my cousin, "You're on his foot, go."
And, so, she boom, goes forward. And the crazy thing was, so I'm a kid, I didn't know about adrenaline, yet. And, so, I got up and I'm like "It's crazy, but I'm fine. I'm all right, I'm okay." And, so, we went to the store. We didn't go to the hospital; we go to the store. We run our errands, we do our things, we come back. And, then, that night my ankle swelled up like the size of a watermelon, it was massive. And, then, I went to the hospital the next day and was on crutches for a while, but that was how I got run over by a VW van.
Dr. Kim: I just had to ask that. I thought that was so great. Okay, last question. In your marriage, what's something that you're really loving about your marriage, today?
Josh: Oh, man, Holly is amazing. I think we've been in a sweet season, and there are so many things I could name. One side note is I feel like I had this impression growing up years ago that marriage starts great, and, then, over the years, it just gets really hard. And then by the end, you're like, "Aargh!" You don't like each other and you're kind of putting up with each other.
And I'm realizing, man, mine has been the opposite. I think it's just like a cultural stereotype, whatever, and it just feels like it keeps getting better, as we experience more and more of life together, and grow in this union, and this intimacy together.
One thing that I really love about our marriage, today, is we regularly do this practice of listening prayer. Where whatever we're going through, it's kind of two parts. And, so, the first part we'll do is asking God, "Hey, what is the lie I'm believing or the fear that I have right now?" And just often when we're facing a hard time. And, so, we might take some time to listen, 30 seconds or a minute, and just I find, often, it feels like the Spirit of God, like God will bring clarity to kind of being able to name. Like, "Oh, here's this fear I really am experiencing right now." Or this lie.
The second part is we'll take that and we'll bring it before Jesus together and go, "Okay, God, what's the truth that you want to say about this?" We'll both listen and sit out 30 seconds to a minute and, then, share if we feel like there was some clarity or something in our spirit, or something that God gave. And one of the things I love is like you mentioned, I think, earlier, but coming back to cultivating that intimacy. Not only with one another emotionally and so on as well, but also together with Christ.
And, so, seeking to bring our lives together before Christ, where there's this us together, horizontally. But, then, Christ focus, vertically, being able to knit our lives together. Even more profoundly in us, sharing and processing what we feel like Christ is speaking to us, guiding, Him ministering to us with and through each other, together. A real sweet practice lately.
Dr. Kim: Certainly, and to know that He does that, that he shows up. I guess that's what He really had with Adam and Eve, in the garden, before the fall. And for all of us to know that He wants to be in the middle of our marriages like that. But I love what you're doing, and that listening prayer, that's so good. I hope people will take that as a great idea to do.
Well, Joshua, this has been awesome. The book is Beautiful Union: How God's Vision for Sex Points Us to the Good, Unlocks the True, and (Sort of) Explains Everything. They can find you at joshuabutler.net?
Josh: No, joshuaryanbutler.com.
Dr. Kim: joshusryanbutler.com. Twitter is @butlerjosh, and Instagram Joshuabutlerphx.
Josh: Yes.
Dr. Kim: A lot of places to find. The book is such an interesting book. I think it confirmed some things for me, and it also gave me a chance to look at some things in a different light.
And, hopefully, God will help me use that into people's lives, too. So thank you for the work you put into that book and the time you put in that, and thanks for spending time, today.
Josh: Thank you so much, Dr. Kim. I love the conversation, thank you.
Dr. Kim: Thank you.
[00:57:10] < Outro >
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