God's Design for Sex: What is a Gospel View Of Sexuality? With Dr. Juli Slattery | Ep. 578
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. I am so excited to welcome Dr. Juli Slattery today; she is a clinical psychologist, she's an author, a speaker, and the president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy. In the past, she served at Focus on the Family, and in 2012 she started Authentic Intimacy. It's a ministry devoted to reclaiming God's design for sexuality. Juli is the author of twelve books including the new one; God, Sex, and Your Marriage, and the host of the weekly podcast Java with Juli. This is going to be a lot of fun, guys, let's go to the studio, right now.
Well, Juli, welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. Thank you so much for saying yes to be here. I'm excited about our interview, today, and just all the things that I think you have to share with our audience, and we're excited about having you.
Juli: Yes, I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for inviting me.
Dr. Kim: You bet. Well, let's just jump right into it because this is something that I see a lot, as a counselor. And there is a lot of tension and shame around sex and the Christian culture, it becomes a hot button issue. How did we get there? Why is that?
Juli: Yes, boy, that's the million-dollar question. I think a lot of it is we really have a Christian tradition over the last, probably, a couple of hundred years of silence around sexuality. Where, particularly, within the Protestant tradition, sex isn't something we tend to talk about. And if we do talk about it, we talk about sexual immorality and how bad it is. But we've been uncomfortable to talk about the goodness of sex. Or even to get into the nitty-gritty of the difficulty of sexual brokenness, and trauma, and struggle.
So as I engage in this work, I just find that there's a lot of undoing that we need to engage in for Christians, or Catholics, or Mormons. People who've grown up in faith communities where the topic of sexuality has been taboo, other than to talk about how horrible sexual sin is.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I teach Prep for Marriage, and I used to teach a nine-week class and we did it for a number of years. And one of the things I'd always asked the class was, ""How many of you have ever heard a sermon series on sex from God's perspective?" I'd never had a hand go up, and that's what you're saying. We've never really take the time to talk about it in a positive way. We look at Song of Solomon and we see the beauty of sex, as God created it, over and over.
So let's get into that, then, with a biblical view of sex. Why does that matter? What does that change?
Juli: Oh, it changes everything, and when we talk about the biblical view of sex, it's important to go beyond just the rules.
The first thing people think of as the biblical view of sex is an understanding that God created it for marriage, and anything outside of marriage is wrong, and bad, and sinful, and, yes, that's important to know. But what we've been missing is what I would refer to as a biblical narrative of sex. And not just sex but sexuality because our sexuality goes beyond just what we do with our bodies.
And, so, it's critical that we challenge the current narratives that most of us are operating with and don't even know we're operating with. So narratives that the culture has really discipled us in. Like sex is all about personal pleasure, and about personal fulfillment, and even finding your identity and sexual expression. And you should have whatever you want, sexually, that's going to make you a fulfilled human being. That's the predominant narrative of our world.
But, then, there's also an equally destructive narrative that a lot of us grew up in with church culture. Which is God created sex for marriage and if you've messed that up, you can never fully recover. And the only thing God really cares about is that you obey the rules. And, so, that's really a legalistic narrative that has led to a lot of shame, a lot of confusion. A really simplistic view of what sexual wholeness looks like, from God's perspective.
So once we really drill into, "Okay, well, what is God's heart for my sexuality? And what is a more gospel-centered narrative of why God created sexuality, in the first place?" It really gives people a starting place to begin to understand why sexuality is such a difficult and, sometimes, painful aspect of their humanity, and even what it looks like to walk towards wholeness. Not just get rid of sin but walk towards wholeness.
And, so, it's absolutely critical, not just for married couples, but for us as individuals, to be able to reconcile the goodness of God with what many of us experience as a difficult journey of sexuality.
Dr. Kim: That makes so much sense. And as you were talking just because the church has not dealt with this in a positive way, in general, that the worldview is what has seeped into all of us, in one way or the other. And, then, we try to reconcile the worldview of sex with our faith and it doesn't work very well.
Juli: It doesn't.
Dr. Kim: Yes, because sex in the world, like you said, it can be selfish. It's personal pleasure and the Bible talks about serving. And, so, we collide with those two worlds, right?
Juli: We do, and we can't make sense of it. And some people, increasingly, so, even walk away from the Christian faith. Because they feel like, "Well, I've either got to accept this very reductionistic and legalistic view of sex, that makes me experience so much shame. Or I have to embrace the world's philosophy, that it's all about getting whatever I can. And pursuing as much pleasure and freedom, as I can, while I'm here on Earth."
And, so, when you compare those two; the world's invitation seems a whole lot more life-giving. If you don't know that what you've grown up with, in the church, really, doesn't fully express the goodness of God.
Then, you may not only just walk away from a biblical understanding of sexuality, you may walk away from God, in large part because He doesn't seem good. You can't reconcile it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it just doesn't seem to fit when you try to do it that way. I'll go back to something else that you said that I thought was really interesting. And that was that a lot of times, people, if they feel like they have fallen sexually or sinned sexually, that they can't be redeemed. How did we get there? From a God that, probably, in all other areas of our life, we would say, "We can have redemption. God forgives us. We get a new start on life." Why is sex something we put in a different lane over there?
Juli: I think there are Scripture references that seem to indicate that sexual sin is different. So, for example, when we look at Romans chapter one, and it's describing, particularly, same-sex sexual sin. It seems like Paul is highlighting this as evidence of how far away from God a culture can go. Then if you look at 1 Corinthians 6, Paul very clearly defines sexual sin as different and he says, "All other sin you commit are outside of the body. But when you sin sexually, you sin against your body."
And, so, when you look at passages like that, and you also look at Old and New Testament prohibitions against any kind of sexual immorality. The Scripture is very clearly saying this is serious, and we need to hear that in our day and age. Because there are a lot of Christians who want to downplay the seriousness of sexual sin.
But the statements that sexual sin is serious and that sexual sin, in some ways, is different. Is a very distinctive statement from saying sexual sin is worse or sexual sin is, in some ways, unforgivable, and I don't think we've made that distinction. I think we've just said, "Hey, if you lie, or you gossip, or you're full of pride, or greed, those are class C sins. But if you sin sexually that's a class A sin, and it's way more serious than these other things."
And, so, part of it is we're not, and this goes back to what I talked about before. We don't read about sexuality within the context of the whole gospel. That's where, I think, we fall short a lot. We just take these verses and we build a theology of sexuality that, in many ways, doesn't fit with the whole gospel message, and the whole of Scripture. And because of that we treat sexuality as distinct and different, and sexual sin as distinct and different, and even sexual purity as distinct and different than we would any other aspect of our humanity.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I agree. And if people have heard a sermon on sex they, probably, have heard those verses that you recited but not the balance. Not the whole idea of Scripture, and forgiveness, and redemption.
I've worked with a number of people, that in their single years were sexually active. Then as they approached marriage, they were afraid, "Is God going to bless sex in my marriage?" And just trying to help them see that, yes, when you take those vows, God's going to do everything He can to make your marriage good and that includes your sex relationship, and that God can redefine that. But I don't think we hear that.
When Nancy and I got married, 50 years ago, it was like she had been taught that sex was bad, and dirty, and all these things to keep her pure. Well-intentioned parents, I get it. That was what you did at that stage of history.
And, so, that caused us a lot of problems as we begin our sexual relationship. She would enjoy it but, then, here would come the guilt afterwards. And, as her husband, I didn't know what to do at 20-years-old, with the wife that was feeling that.
And, so, I know, for a lot of people, there are just so many things. And, then, you take it into the context of marriage and want it to be what God wants it to be in marriage, and it's like, "Wow, there is too much confusion going on for me."
Juli: Right, and you talk about those singles entering marriage wondering if God's going to bless them because of their sin. And I've seen situations where it's further complicated by sexual pain and, then, they're thinking, "Wow, this is God's punishment to me."
Recently, a friend who had a miscarriage and, really, in the back of his mind was thinking, "I wonder if God's punishing me because of my sexual sin or my struggle with pornography." So there are echoes of that in a lot of marriages, and people don't have a safe place to ask those questions. But there's a lot of underlying guilt, and even blaming, within married couples. In terms of, "No, this is your fault because of your struggle or because of your sin."
Dr. Kim: Yes, and, obviously, that makes it worse but you're right. A lot of times we don't know where to go, or even to a pastor that we trust in some other ways. It's different going in and saying, "Yes, I stole something when I was 15."
Or "I've been thinking bad things."
But then to come in and say, "I struggle with sexual sin and how's that affecting me." There just seems to be a barrier there that's hard for us to cross. I see people, I talk about sex more with couples now in counseling than I ever have and, honestly, a lot of times they bring it up.
But if they don't, I do because the things you're talking about are so prevalent. And it's not like we're talking this is isolated with just a few people. Especially, those who've had sexual trauma before marriage, it's such a big part. So, sometimes, we just stumble through the sexual part of our marriage without ever really being able to heal and embrace what God has for us.
Juli: Boy, that's really true. And I would say, in my experience, that's true of the vast majority of married couples, of Christian married couples. So this is not the exception, it's the majority that has something, whether it's sexual trauma, or a history of pornography use, or even things like "My dad cheated on my mom; and so I don't know if I can trust a man to be faithful." There's always something.
Or "I hate my body; and I don't know if I can trust my body sexually." So there are these threads of sexual brokenness that we don't know where to go with, and we don't know how to articulate. Dr. Kim, you mentioned how many people have heard a sermon on sexuality. Well, I remember speaking to a group of about 100 pastors, several months ago, and I asked them, "How many of you have had more than one class, in your training, related to biblical sexuality?" And out of 100 pastors not one of them raised their hand.
And, so, we look at our pastors and we say, "Well, they're not doing a good job."
Or "When I went to my pastor and I talked to him about this, he didn't know how to respond." Well, they're not equipped and they're not trained. And, so, the work we need to do is not just with individuals but, also, just changing the narrative of our church culture and equipping leaders and counselors, pastors. To have these deeper level of conversations, where people are really hurting.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I can see that and thinking of a couple of churches, that if the pastor did choose to do a series on sex. He would get a lot of pushback because of the congregation. So, yes, it's a complicated thing, isn't it? To help couples get this out where it needs to be so we can heal.
Juli: It is.
Dr. Kim: So let's move on and talk about sexual discipleship. What is that?
Juli: Yes, so sexual discipleship is a model that I've developed, over the years, of how we change Christian culture. And, yes, this can be true in churches, it can be true in families, but I think it can be even true in marriages. I contrast sexual discipleship with sex education. So we're all really comfortable with the phrase "sex education", and we use it all the time.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Juli: But people get really uncomfortable if you say sexual discipleship because they're not sure what that is. So education is a very specific course of study. And this is, often, how we've approached sexuality in our families and in our relationships. Before you get married, maybe, you do premarital counseling, and one session is dedicated to sex. Or we have youth groups, and youth group has one week that is going to focus on sexuality, or your church does one sermon on it. So that sex education is giving you just a little bit of knowledge, a piece of information.
Whereas discipleship is this lifelong learning of thinking, and learning to follow Jesus, and learning to surrender things to Him, and get the heart of God. And, so, I feel like a lot of Christians, again, they know the rights and wrongs about sexuality, but they've been discipled by the culture. And, so, education is teaching you what to think about sex. Discipleship is training you how to think about sex.
And, so, this is the work that we do in our ministry, Authentic Intimacy. Where we're really on a journey with people. To help them understand some of the underlying lies and narratives that they believe about their sex life, and help them surrender that to the fuller picture of God's heart, for their sexuality. And, so, it can be applied in marriage, it can be applied in families. We work with a lot of churches and Christian organizations. To have that lifelong training perspective of—what does it mean for Jesus to be lord of this area of my life?
Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm, that's so good and, I think, it's something that if we're going to turn things around. If things are going to be turned around, it's got to start like that, doesn't it? Ground roots, and just educate people and disciple them. I love the way you use that word of just helping, really, train people. Help them to really learn and grow in those areas.
[00:17:35] < Music >
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[00:18:29] < Music >
Dr. Kim: So this biblical vision of sex; how does that elevate both spouses’ experience in the sexual relationship? How do we get practical with that?
Juli: Yes, so it starts with even for a couple to think about the question, "How would you define a great sex life?"
"What does that even look like?"
And every individual has in their mind how they would define that. And there may be some overlap between what the husband thinks and what the wife thinks, but maybe not. But I would guess that most couples have never even entertained that question. They just have gone about, "Okay, this is what we're supposed to do."
Sexual discipleship would begin by, really, saying, "Well, how would God define a great sex life?" If He's looking at your marriage. What is His definition of a great sex life that you and your spouse might have for decades, not just in the moment? What we really do is help people to see that the primary reason why God created marriage and He created the sexual relationship, is to reveal to us, in a very physical and relational way, what God's covenant love is like.
I don't need to get into all the theology of that. But when we study the Old Testament and New Testament, we see, without question, that God wants to reveal this faithful love He has with us through the physical relationship of marriage and sexuality.
There are all these references to Israel being unfaithful and using very sexual terminology. Then there are all these references in the New Testament like Paul says, "I've promised you to one groom, I've promised you in marriage, and now you're being unfaithful by stepping away from God." So this is the primary purpose of our sexuality in marriage.
Well, then, what should we be modeling in our marriage that shows us, and really reflects God's love for us? And, so, when I work with couples, I talk about four specific aspects of God's love that should define healthy sex in our marriage. We break those down and talk them through, but I'll just list them quickly.
One of them is that it has to have a foundation of faithfulness. And without faithfulness, without fidelity and trustworthiness, you really can't build much else.
And, so, you have to address the issues of pornography, and the issues of temptations, and emotional unfaithfulness. You have to work on building that foundation of trust and safety.
The second one is that it's a journey of intimate knowing. And we talk about the difference between sexual activity, which is what your bodies are doing; and sexual intimacy, which is really sharing the heart and soul, with each other, in the sexual journey. A lot of couples know how to get physically naked, but they don't know how to get emotionally and spiritually naked.
The third one is that God's covenant love required sacrifice on His part. That the apex of love is laying yourself down for another person. And, so, healthy intimacy in marriage is going to require both partners to have the attitude of, "How do I put my needs aside and serve you?"
"How do I love you well, through the good times and bad times?"
And, then, finally, covenant love has an element of celebration and passion. The Scripture tells us over and over again, to "Rejoice in the Lord, to sing praise to Him, to exalt His name." And we see in the Song of Solomon, these two lovers just praising each. In some ways, worshipping each other's body like "You're so beautiful" and in great description.
And, so, a healthy sex life means that you're also taking time out to celebrate love, even through the bad times. That you're taking time out to experience the exhilaration of passion. That you're building creativity, and fun, and passion.
So when you take those four elements together, and you can't neglect one of them. You have to be working on all four of them. And, so, that's, practically, how this concept of sexual discipleship begins to play out in helping married couples, work towards greater wholeness.
Dr. Kim: I love that. And you started out with the first one was faithfulness. And it's something that, in our culture, it doesn't seem to have the impact it used to, of what it means to be faithful. Every time I teach a Prep for Marriage class, I list out the Fruit of the Spirit. And, then, I have them vote as to which ones are the most important, to them, in a marriage relationship.
At one time, early when I used to teach at love and stuff like that, the last few years, it's faithfulness. Faithfulness is always number one of the thing that they want. And I think it's because we're surrounded by a culture that there's a lot of unfaithfulness in it. Like you said, whether it's pornography, whether it's an affair, whether it's an emotional affair, whatever it is, and that's so foundational to a marriage.
If I was not faithful to Nancy, I could not expect her to open up to me. There'd always be a wall there, a barrier there, something that stood in the way of it. And, so, it's so important. Talk a little bit about the word intimacy because I love the way you define that.
A lot of times we put intimacy and sex in the same box, and a lot of times we interchange those words when we're talking. When I work with couples, they'll say, "Well, our intimacy isn't what it used to be." I know what they're talking about is their sex life isn't what it used to be. Expand a little bit on what intimacy really is and how that, really, heightens a sexual relationship?
Juli: Yes, it does, and you alluded to this, and I want to pick up on it. You cannot have intimacy without safety. And, so, this is why couples who are going after that pleasure and using pornography, their bodies are responding to one another but they're emotionally guarded. They have to be; they're not sharing intimate space. So it's really important to recognize that you can, again, have had sex for 25 years, every day, and still never have experienced intimacy.
And, so, intimacy is the journey of "I am known by this person. I can share my thoughts, I can share my fears, I can share my feelings, and not only that, but I know I will be accepted. And, so, I don't have to pretend." And there are an awful lot of couples, particularly, so many couples, have been impacted by pornography, and social media, and images of what sex is supposed to be.
That they feel like, "I can never be myself, I have to perform. I have to please my wife. I have to always be interested in sex, even when I'm not." But when the sexual relationship begins to break down, and for most couples, at some point, it does, for a lot of reasons.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Juli: But the great thing about that is now that activity doesn't work, you have to go towards intimacy. So, in other words, let's say there's a physical issue, there's physical pain, or there's an illness. Instead of just stopping sex, the invitation is "Talk to me about how you feel about our sex life not being what it was." Or even when you have one partner who has a higher desire or drive than the other. Instead of just getting in this conflict of "You never..." or "You always..."
What about talking about, "What does it feel like for you when you initiate sex and I'm not in the mood?" Can you be that vulnerable to talk about the feelings of rejection, the fear? Or for a wife to explain to her husband how she might feel objectified. Like, "All my life I've been told that it's all about my body, and I feel like you just want me for a release. Like you really don't care about my thoughts and my feelings."
Or you talk about the many couples who have sexual trauma, in their past. Getting to the level where you can talk about what is triggering and what your fears are. Instead of just dissociating and going through the motions. And, so, those conversations are so much more intimate than just having sex.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Juli: There are guys who, literally, look at porn once a week and have never told their wives. I'm going to say that secret means that you are not intimate. The minute you get up the courage to confess, and to really share with her what's going on in your heart and your struggle, now you're stepping towards intimacy. And, so, there are all these opportunities for couples to enter into intimacy, but they're so afraid of it that they just keep going through the motions of the activity.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think, pornography is such a huge issue in our culture. It's scary in so many ways and we, also, know it's not going away. But, I think, too, and I've told guys that I've worked with, with pornography, I said, "You've got to tell your spouse. You've got to tell your wife because your sex relationship and intimacy with her will always have a barrier there, until you tell her, and it's such an important thing to do."
But those conversations and the things you're talking about, taking time to talk about. Really, lead into the serving and the sacrifice of it is being willing to ask those questions. Not, "Hey, this is what I want you to do for me." But "How can I serve you? What can I do that's going to help you? I noticed that this trigger seems to happen. Can you help me understand that, so I can work with you on that?" Those are the things that really take you to a deeper level, really, in the sex relationship.
Juli: Yes, it's really true, and what you begin to confront, then, is the fact that most of us have been raised with some entitlement perspective of sexuality. Sex is one of the only areas in our lives where it seems like, even from the pulpit, God is saying, "You have a right to demand." And, that is just not consistent with the Scripture.
People will take a verse, like the first few verses in 1 Corinthians 7, and say that you have this duty and you have an obligation. Therefore, the other spouse begins to enter into the sexual relationship with a demand perspective of, "If you don't meet my needs, then, I'm justified in looking at porn, or cheating on you, or withholding affection." And, Dr. Kim, that is so contrary to Scripture.
And, so, what God calls us to do, you even look at Philippians 2, or you look at Ephesians 5, or all these other passages that are saying, "Be like Christ, in laying down your needs, including your sexual needs."
Not saying, "Hey, this is a demand that you have to do." But, really, saying, "How do I serve you? How do I serve my spouse sexually?" And that means, sometimes, "How do I make this fun and exciting for my spouse?" But it also means, "How do I deny my own desires, right now, in order to be present and to minister to a spouse that's hurting physically, or emotionally, or spiritually?"
"How do I deny myself, enough, to confess what's really happening and seek help for my sin struggle? Instead of blaming my spouse for our bad sex life?"
And, so, this attitude of, "Hey, I want to lay myself down out of love" has so many implications. And the beautiful, passionate, love that God created sex to be, really, can't exist until you embrace that attitude.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, and it makes such a difference. I'm just thinking through our marriage, young, at 20-years-old, it was different. It was, certainly, a lot about the physical with hormones and all that stuff. But as we learned more about just the depth of the sex relationship, and listening to each other, and talking to each other. There are so many couples that I work with, in counseling, that I ask them, "Do you talk about your sex relationship?" And the answer is no. Or they say, "Yes, we do, it's more fighting about frequency."
It's not just sitting down and serving, and "How can I help you and how can we make this better?" That's such an important part of it. And I don't want to miss number four because, I think, the celebrating is so important. When I ask couples to pray about their sex relationship or to thank God for it. I usually get a funny look, like, "Can we talk to God about sex?"
Yes, I mean, your bodies fit together because God made them that way, and He wants to do that. I think it's so cool to get to the point, where we do celebrate that with each other and with God. There's a freedom that comes with that, too, I think.
Juli: Oh, yes, absolutely, one thing that has been, really, helpful, for me, is to look at Song of Solomon. And there's this part in Song of Solomon, at the end of chapter four and beginning of chapter five. Where it describes the husband and wife, lot of people think this is their honeymoon, but they've just engaged in sex. They talk about how pleasurable it is, how much fun they had.
Then, it says that the chorus enters the room that the chorus speaks. And it's really not the chorus that is speaking and it is God, himself, that's speaking. And He says, "Drink, friends, and vibe deeply, oh, lovers." And really what He's saying is, "This is good. I want you to enjoy to the fullest this gift that I've given you."
Some people will say, "Well, Solomon's sex life was messed up. Why would we read Song of Solomon?" Boy, that's a complicated question. But here's what I want to say your sex life is messed up, too. And a lot of married couples feel like, "Well, God wouldn't bless our sexual relationship because..." and they go on to list all the mistakes they've made, or that their marriage isn't perfect, or their body isn't perfect. It's all these reasons.
But what God is, really, showing us through that passage is that this is the one place where God says, "Go for it, don't hold back. Enjoy each other, it gives me glory." And I had to hear that, as a young wife, because I didn't really understand that. I thought a Godly woman wouldn't pursue sexual passion. I don't know why I thought that. It was just the thinking I was raised with.
But when you wrestle with Song of Solomon and you see that God is saying, "It is good for both a husband and wife to think about this, to pursue it, to plan for it, to fully enjoy it. You, actually, have to also realize that it's the enemy's plan to keep us from the fulfillment of that pleasure.
And, so, part of even responding to the brokenness, sexually, in our culture is reclaiming the goodness of what it's meant to be in our marriage. That's a part of reclaiming what we all are like, "Man, sex is so messed up in our world." Well, let me ask, is it messed up in your own bedroom? Because that's the place that you really get to reclaim it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's the only place you can, really, do something about it on a personal level, and taking the time to do that. That's so good. So as we looked at biblical vision for sex. And, then, people that, maybe, were taught things about sex and sexuality, in their church, they find out really aren't biblical. Someone is saying, "I really want to dig deeper into this whole idea of what God's vision is for sex." How do they do that? What's step one of filtering out the past or what you've been taught and, really, embracing the truth that God has?
Juli: Yes, I would say, first of all, ask for God's help, and you already mentioned it. But most of us don't pray about our sex lives, and it has to begin there. Of, "God, I really am asking you to reveal the lies I've believed. Help me be free from them, and would you please give me your perspective?"
And, then, the second step is, really, renewing our minds like it says in Romans 12. You didn't get this way of thinking in a moment. It took years and years of messaging, and you're still being bombarded with the wrong messaging. And, so, the only way to really discern the lies you believe is to be exposed to what's true.
And, so, there are lots of resources, at our ministry we have a podcast called Java with Julie. We have over 480 episodes, where all we're doing is talking about the application of biblical sexuality and intimacy. We have books, Bible studies. Online groups that you can join to go through different pieces of content related to marriage or healing, and we're not the only ministry out there doing this. But it is going to take an aggressive retraining of your thinking.
I had to go through that as a wife, myself, when my husband and I were really struggling in this area. This is way before I started this ministry. I remember just saying to the Lord God, "God, I am going to dedicate the next three months to really getting your perspective on sexuality. Because I know that my perspective is not good."
And, so, really, being intentional about seeking that out and being discipled in your sexuality.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, and it was worth it, right?
Juli: Oh, my goodness, yes, worth it for so many reasons. I could talk about my marriage and the things God has done in my marriage. But even beyond that, we have three sons. So many of us are burdened about this topic for our kids. Well, you cannot pass on what you do not have.
And, so, if you want to disciple your children. Whether they be young, or teenagers, or even adults, through the chaos in our world, sexually, you have to have a solid understanding of what God's heart for sexuality is. And you have to have gone through the process of surrendering all of this to him. And, so, my own journey is really what has equipped me to encourage other people, including my own children.
Dr. Kim: Yes, the thing that popped in my mind was that definition of insanity, "We keep doing the same thing over and over, that doesn't work, expecting different results." And I think we do that with our sex life. What you're saying and what I encourage people to do is step out of that. What does it hurt to spend time working on it this way? Give God a chance and see what he can do. I don't think they're going to be disappointed at the end of it.
Juli: No, not at all. We are never disappointed when we invite God in.
Dr. Kim: No.
Juli: And when we say, "Lord, would you show up? Would you heal me?" So "His arm is not too short." As the scripture says, I've been able to witness that in thousands of lives. That He really does reclaim, and He really does renew, and heal.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. We've talked a lot about the things in a marriage. Are there other common pain points or tensions that Christian couples face, in their married life?
Juli: Yes, I mean, we've talked about a few of the biggies; pornography, shame. You mentioned what we might perceive as mismatched desire, that's a big one. And, then, even just exhaustion, that seems like a minor one, but it's a big deal. Even the technology, you get home from a long day of work and what does the average couple do? They're on their phones, scrolling through stories, and reels, or they're binging on a Netflix series. And, so, our way of relaxing is disconnecting not connecting.
And, so, even something like that—our exhaustion will deplete testosterone, and the energy to invest in sex, and even feel sexually alive. The way we eat and our health, there are a lot of things that are assaulting this area of our lives and our marriages. So those are some of the most common things that I hear, as well as some of the things that we've already talked about.
Dr. Kim: Yes. And, so, it's really taking the time out and looking at those things. And, "If, say, we just watched one episode of that Netflix show instead of binging three. What could we do with that other couple of hours?" There's no shortcut to building intimacy. You got to have that time together. You just got to have that time where you're face to face without all the interruptions.
My experience has been when our sex life is good, and our intimacy is good, and we're connecting that way, I get energized when I come home. This is a place where I recharge to go back out the next day. When Nancy greets me and hugs me, I mean, I'm just barely getting in the door and I'm thinking, "Okay, let's go run a marathon." There's just something about that, I think, that God wired us that way. And, so, if you think you're too tired, just try it. Just try beginning to do some things different.
Juli: Yes, and we don't make something a priority unless we believe it will be life-giving.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Juli: And for a lot of couples, their experience of sex has not, necessarily, been life-giving. So they don't invest in it. And, so, what we really want to encourage you to do is view this as something that can be transformed into something, as you explained, gives you energy. And even chemically, it gives you the endorphins, and the oxytocin, and the dopamine. It's scientifically proven to sleep better, and to combat stress, and to feel connected through the storms of life.
But it really does take first that intentional belief that, "Hey, we're going to invest in this, we're going to work on it." And I've found this to be true, sex is never going to be a neutral area in your marriage. It's never going to be something that you just place on pause and it won't affect you. It's either going to be drawing you closer together or it's going to become a wedge that gets in between you. And, so, it's truly is worth fighting for.
Dr. Kim: I think that's a great visual that there's no neutral there. You're either going backwards or going forward.
Juli: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I like that. Okay, so couples that are listening, today. Maybe, some are listening individually and they think, "Gosh, I'd like to do this. I don't know how to approach my husband. How do I approach my wife?" Maybe a husband's thinking, "This is going to be hard for my wife."
What are the next steps? How can they work together? And, then, is this more difficult for women than it is for men?
Juli: I don't think it's more difficult for women or men, uniquely. I think there are some nuances for men, in general, that make it more difficult and some for women that make it more difficult. So for women, often, there's more wounding there, or her sexuality is more physically and emotionally complicated. And, so, it's like she can't even figure out how to begin to desire sex. And, so, she's got those barriers to overcome, or maybe she feels emotionally disconnected from her husband.
But for the men, they have their own hang ups, the research would show that about 90% of men have been, significantly, impacted by pornography. And women can be impacted by pornography, as well but it's, generally, more about 40%, 30 or 40%.
But men are carrying the secret baggage. They're carrying all that they've learned from pornography about sex. That has completely skewed how they approach their wives and how they approach the topic, they have lots of shame around it. For men, a lot of times their confidence and masculinity is tied up in sexuality. So they're afraid to confess or admit any struggle. So they both have barriers that can keep them from, really, being honest and pursuing these conversations.
But I would say the best next step for you is, first of all, to just say to your spouse, in a way that they can hear it, "I would really like to invest in this area of our marriage." Now, I say in the way they can hear it because some spouses would love the opportunity to work on their sex life. All you need to say to your spouse is, "Hey, this is an area that I feel like we're drifting in. Can we invest in our sex life?"
For other spouses, that would be a completely intimidating or, seemingly, selfish invitation. What they need to hear is, "I feel like we're drifting apart; can we invest in just intimacy?"
"Can I invest in understanding you more? I don't want to just be your roommate. How can we build an intimate relationship?" And, so, an invitation like that.
Then the second step, and this is something my husband and I have done throughout the years, is to do something to kick start it. So you can go to a marriage event. Find a good marriage conference, maybe, even one that focuses on sexuality, to help get the conversation started. Or, this is something that we've done in the past, get a good Christian book on sex, and read it out loud, together.
So when you say, "What would we do instead of watching three episodes of that Netflix special?" Well, what if we sat just for half an hour and took a good Christian book on sex, and just read it out loud to each other?"
Now, the magic of doing this is it gives you practice in saying things that you don't know how to say. And it lets the author be the bad guy in describing, for example, "Well, this is how women tend to respond physiologically to touch. And the wife can say, "Yes, that's how I feel. Sometimes, when you just go right for direct stimulation, it's overwhelming for me. I need more indirect touch."
And, so, a couple of authors I'd recommend Dr. Doug Rosenau's book, any of his books are great. Cliff and Joyce Penner have some great books on sex, so you could just do a search for either of those two authors. I wrote a book called God, Sex, and Your Marriage that talks about these four pillars. So there are lots of resources out there, but let it come from someone else. Just respond to an expert who's teaching you together. So it doesn't become, "You always do this."
Or, "I don't like it when you do this." Because that's when you, really, get into that more personal conflict. And if you do get into conflict around it, don't be afraid to reach out to a counselor who is experienced in navigating some of these issues.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, don't stay stuck in that. Yes, I love what Dr. Rosenau has done. I love the Penners. Celebration of Sex that Rosenau has done, I've recommended that so much. Because that helps us realize that God gave us a lot of flexibility in the sex life, and it helps us to see that.
I love the idea of reading it out loud, together. There's just got to be something really special about that, and then you can interact on what you read. And, like you said, "It may bring up some words, or terms, or thoughts that you want to say but you just don't know how to say them. Well, let somebody else say them and, then, you can deal with it. Those are awesome.
Any last thoughts? We've covered so much today of next steps, going forward. How would you encourage them?
Juli: Yes, I mean, one thing I would do to encourage them is, we've already kind of talked about it, but ask God for help. The other thing that can be really encouraging is recognizing that you're not alone.
One of the things that I always do, when I do any speaking or seminar, is I always will make sure we have an hour for anonymous Q&A, and people can text in any question they want. And I really feel like even beyond, maybe, the answers that I would give, couples are ministered to by the questions. Because they start to hear these really pain-filled questions and they realize, "We're not the only couple going through this."
And because we're so quiet about sexuality. You go to church or you go to a small group, and you look around, and your perception is all these other couples are doing great, like, they're having fun, they have romantic getaways, they're so in love. But you don't see behind the surface, that you might be sitting right next to a couple that has a very similar struggle to the one you have. And we all have sexual brokenness, every couple is navigating something.
And, so, to really realize that even as the Bible says, "There's no struggle or temptation that you're facing that isn't common to other people." So that can be a huge source of encouragement. Which is why getting in a group can be really helpful to get encouragement from others, who are on a similar journey.
Dr. Kim: That's so good, I think, that's the importance of groups. Where we can hear other people's stories, and just not feel alone. We talked earlier about not having the freedom to talk to people in the church about it, and we've got to get past those barriers because we need to talk about it. And, sometimes, because the stigma in your church may be you can't talk about it and you think, "Well, we must be the only ones that have that problem." Which is so far from the truth. As we wrap up, tell me one thing that you're loving about your marriage, today?
Juli: Well, my husband and I, for the last year and a half, have had the opportunity to work together. So I started this ministry eleven years ago and he's always been in the corporate world. And, then, when we got through the active stage of parenting and were able to cut back financially. We were like, "Hey, for this new season, what would it be like for him to join Authentic Intimacy?" So he did and now we get to travel together and speak together.
And, so, it's really just a whole 'nother piece of marriage to experience the work side of ministry together. So it's a real joy, and we also have discovered a mutual love for pickleball. So that's our fun thing is, we love pickleball and we play together a lot.
Dr. Kim: Well, I wish that you were closer because Nancy and I've learned to love it, too. It's just so much fun and just enjoy the people we play with. Yes, the social part of it is so much fun, besides activity and just trying to get better. Trying to beat that guy I haven't been able to beat, yet.
Juli: That's right, we're both quite competitive, so it's a fun, competitive outlet for us.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. We had to learn that when we did split up and play on opposite sides, that we had to leave it on the court because we're both very competitive, too. You can't take that home with you.
Juli: No, you can't, ah-ah!
Dr. Kim: That doesn't work. Juli, this has been a delight. You were humble about the newest book God, Sex, and Your Marriage, but you've written twelve books, altogether. Your podcast, Java with Juli, I would encourage people to find that wherever they listen to podcasts. Any other places that they can find you?
Juli: I think just going to our website authenticnimacy.com, and I'd love for people to take advantage of some of the online opportunities we have. To go through groups together as individual or a couple. We also have intensive coaching opportunities, for example, women who experience sexual pain, or for women who are overcoming trauma or betrayal. And, so, a lot of our resources are for women. We do have some for couples, but you can find all that stuff at our website.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, check out that and all the good stuff is there. Juli, this has been a great podcast. It has been great to talk with you and get to know you. I love what you're doing, I love Authentic Intimacy, and the people you're helping and how God's using you. So thanks, again, for taking time to be with us.
Juli: Yes, boy, thanks so much for giving me the opportunity to share.
Dr. Kim: You're welcome.
[00:53:18] < Outro >
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