Finding the Courage to Lead with Special Guest Matt Hammitt | Ep. 524
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Lindsay: Welcome to the Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling.
Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
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Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage podcast. Today my special guest is Matt Hammitt, who was the lead singer of the Grammy and Dove Award-winning band Sanctus Real for 20 years. Matt has a new book out called Lead Me: Finding Courage to Fight for Your Marriage, Children, and Faith. I'm excited to have Matt today. Let's go right to the interview.
Well, Matt, is so good to have you on the Awesome Marriage podcast. Thank you for taking the time to be with us.
Matt: Yes, thanks for having me on.
Dr. Kim: Well, the book gets really real, and making sure about Lead Me isn't just a song lyric. But really the way you live and the intentions in that process. So talk a little bit about the circumstances that just led to the song Lead Me, which I know has impacted so many people over the years.
Matt: Yes, thanks. In probably 2007 or 2008, I had been on the road full time after marrying my wife, Sarah. And she was with me for the first four years. So in 2005, she left the road and it really felt like a departure of our dream of being on the road together.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Matt: She went home because we had our first daughter, and then I continued this adventure that we were once on together. But now I was doing this with the band while she was at home. So we were really trying to adjust to this season. Well, first, I'll say it took a long time to adjust to the communication, living on the road. How to be married, and how to communicate, and how to be intimate, how to fight all that stuff, while we're living in a van with a bunch of guys.
Now, we're in this whole new phase, where she's at home I'm on the road and now we're trying to find a new way of communication. So a lot of times I would get home and things would just explode for us.
Our communication barrier was so big and it felt like when we tried to tear down that barrier between us. It was almost like we were building that wall even higher, and we felt helpless in a lot of ways. And I remember one time in particular that Sarah asked me if we could talk. And through tears, she expressed to me that she needed me to step up and be a better leader in our marriage, and not just coast through to survive.
She wanted me to take the initiative to be the kind of man that pursued her emotionally, and spiritually, and got active about finding the solutions that we needed to make our marriage stronger. And, I think, I had lived with an imaginary version of myself for a long time.
That the intentions that I had of the kind of man that I wanted to be, maybe, that reel had played in my head so much. That I was embracing the intentions and the imaginations of who I wanted to be more than actually living those things out.
So I really had to have a break from my imagined self and face that, and really see who I was in reality, in action. And, so, I realized, that day, that my good intentions were worthless until they became actions. And based on the reality of what God was calling me to and what Sarah really needed from me. And, so, that day I picked up the guitar and wrote the first draft of the song that became Lead Me, and had no idea how that song would go on to impact other marriages as well.
Dr. Kim: So many people. So, I think, it's interesting that Sarah, it says a lot about her. That she was the one who brought it to you and confronted you with that. Which, probably, wasn't really easy for her to do or maybe it is since I don't know her, the fact that she would. What would she say prompted her to do that?
Matt: Yes, well, that's one thing I've really appreciated so much about Sarah. It's her willingness to not allow things to just slide relationally. I'm built in a way that I would, probably, rather tuck things away for a while and they get to the point where they'd boil over.
Whereas she's just not willing to do that. And for a long time, that really bothered me. For a long time, I thought, "Why do we have to discuss all these little things as they come up." I used to think she was fighting against me.
But I've come to realize that she was fighting for me all these years and fighting for our relationship. And, so, she definitely is somebody who's always been willing, not only to do that with me but she's been willing to do that with friends and family as well. Willing to take on hard conversations, even though she doesn't really want to. But out of the belief that in the end, it will bring her closer to the people that she loves. And that's probably one of the biggest lessons that I've learned from her over the years.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love what you said about that because, I think, a lot of times as guys, we finally realize that our wives aren't fighting us, they're fighting for this marriage. And, I think, sometimes we have a tendency to just like, "Why are we talking about this?" And, "Why are you bringing stuff up again?" And not realizing how much they want things to be better for both of us in that. So that's really good.
The other thing you said, I wanted go back to just a second. When you talk about your imagined self, was there anything that was key in helping you realize that, "This is not who I am?"
Or, "This is not the life that I'm living?"
Matt: Well, definitely, it was a process. So it was, probably, a number of things that kind of helped me realize that. I mean, honestly, I could say, for me, it was the contrast of my wife in the wedding picture next to me. Versus who was sitting across the table for me.
Dr. Kim: Wow.
Matt: That actually was what really did it for me. And I write about it in the song, "In picture frames, I see my beautiful wife, always smiling. But on the inside, I can hear her saying 'Lead me.'"
Those were actually lyrics I wrote that day, from that moment, because I was looking at that picture and she's glowing. And she has this sense of anticipation on her face, and excitement, and expectancy for what God was going to do as she followed this man into her future. And here I am seven years later and I'm like, "The woman sitting across for me is completely broken."
Dr. Kim: Hmm.
Matt: And I think that is what made me wake up and go, "Okay, I know that it takes two in a marriage to make things work. But I know for a fact that I'm called to step up, and proactively figure out what is it that I am doing in this marriage that has caused this woman to feel broken."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Matt: And that is real. And, I think, realizing that her pain was real and being able to take her pain into my heart, is what allowed me to actually face, "What is it about my imagination of who I am, that if I was living it, it would have a different outcome. And, obviously, I'm not living that the way that I think I am or want to." And, so, I think, that was a big part of it for me. Taking her true feelings to heart and realizing if I was doing my job there. Not that she wouldn't still have hurt, but perhaps she would be in a better place.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I appreciate you sharing because, I think, it's something a lot of times as guys we deal with. I mean, you were successful on the road. Music was successful. I think a lot of guys we're successful in our work and we just don't take our time to look at how does our wife…
I love the fact that you look back at a wedding picture and saw something in her then. I think it's a great idea for all of us, as men, to just look back at that and then look at our wife now, and "Does she look like that?"
Matt: Yes.
Dr. Kim: "Does she have that glow, that excitement about being a part of our life?" That's awesome.
Let's switch a little bit over to Bowen and his health and what they needed from you, I guess at that time, as the leader of your home. Tell a little bit about that story.
Matt: Yes, so shortly after the song Lead Me came out on radio, and we started experiencing some of what people were feeling from that song and how it was impacting people.
I had felt that there was maybe this sense of, wow, we learned this lesson. We're still on this journey but it's amazing to see our story and our marriage impacting people in a positive way. We all want to see our pain have some sort of redemption, and it did feel like we were kind of hitting this pace, where it was like, "Okay, maybe, things are getting better. We're growing in our marriage and impacting more people." The band was growing.
So it was really hard when we got delivered another series of bad news. We went to the doctor and found out at a 20-week ultrasound that our third baby was a boy. Which was awesome because our little girls were very excited to have a brother. But we also found out that he only had half of his heart.
So from April to September of 2010, we really had to just wait and pray and had no idea what life was going to look like for us. Except for that after he was born, if he survived, he would have to have multiple open heart surgeries. And, so, we knew life was changing for us. And the real irony in that season was the song Lead Me that I had written about being a more present husband and father.
That message was so powerful during that time, really for me in my life, because my family really needed me through this trial. But the irony was that the song I had written about being more present, ultimately, the success of it took me away from home even more.
Dr. Kim: Mm.
Matt: And, so, that was a really complicated season of life. Where I started really grappling with an even deeper level of who I was and what I was called to do for my family.
Dr. Kim: Were there any things, in particular, that you felt that you were struggling with there? That were, really, keeping you from doing the things, leading your family, like you knew that you wanted to?
Matt: Yes. I think, one of the things that were really hard for Sarah and I, at that time. That, maybe, clouded our ability to clearly see how to connect and how to lead as parents, was our grief.
Dr. Kim: Mh-hmm.
Matt: We, really, probably, should have been in some sort of grief counseling through all of this. And we really grieved in separate ways. Sarah grieved by being completely engrossed in all the details of Bowen's medical care.
Before he was born, she wanted to be all in, just studying his condition. It was really, and I'm not saying it in a bad way, but it was an obsession for her. That's how she grieved through that, was to be proactive. And even after he was born being at his bedside 24 hours a day, being present and invested was her way of fighting through the grief.
Matt: Whereas for me, I needed to process, I'm an artist, so I needed to process more through words, and music, and taking those moments away to pray, and reflect, and write.
And when I would try to pull her away from the bedside she would think, "Well, how could you try to pull me away even for an hour or two from our sick child?"
And I would think, "Well, how can you not come away? I don't feel like I have a wife right now." And, so, it was a big strain on us, and, I think, some of those tensions, of that grief, made it very hard to see clearly, how we could come together and make it through. And only by the grace of God and the support of others around us, did we get through that. And thank God, it, actually, ultimately, brought us together, instead of tearing us apart.
Dr. Kim: Because, I think, that happens a lot. Certainly, when a child is sick or you hear about the death of a child, it really takes a toll on the marriage. And, I think, the way you grieved differently was so different. And it wasn't like, in counseling couples, I say, "There's not a right or wrong way to grieve, you just have to do it and you may do it different than your spouse does." And you guys did grieve differently.
How long was Bowen in the hospital? How long was that period of time?
Matt: Yes, so that first period of time was over four months that we spent in the hospital. So four out of the first six months of his life, through two open-heart surgeries before we were able to go back home and start getting back to normal.
Dr. Kim: Wow. That's a long time.
Matt: It is.
Dr. Kim: Especially with the stress and all that comes with that. So when, at that point, you're faced with the decisions, obviously. But what really prompted you to say, "Okay, I'm going to set this dream aside for a while and put my family ahead of that, of everything but the Lord."
Matt: Yep. I really started struggling with that tension shortly after Bowen's birth. At that time, I couldn't sense what the answer was. I felt like we were kind of on this hamster wheel, in a way. The career and everybody feel that way to some degree. And sometimes that can be good that you're moving, and I guess hamster wheel wasn't a great analogy because you're not, really, actually, going anywhere. But in terms of the feeling of, "How do I get out of the cycle that I'm in, that I know is unhealthy for me and for my family?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Matt: It was the sole source of my income. It was my sole artistic expression with the band, that I'd had since I was 16 years old.
Dr. Kim: Wow.
Matt: And, so, it was really a number of years. Three or four years still, that I had, that I was on the road after Bowen was born. That it began to take more and more of a toll on me.
And I just think experiencing burnout and experiencing seasons and cycles that were continuously difficult for me and Sarah. And, really, realizing that it was the way that I was living my life, that was at the heart of the tension that we were consistently experiencing.
My buddy, Brian, always says guys come to him and they say, "My life is crazy and I'm working 80 hours, and I'm gone all the time." And sometimes we develop or they develop this victim mentality, like, "Oh, it's just so hard." And I, really, actually, appreciate his attitude towards it. Because, he's like, "Man, I don't feel bad for them." And he's like, "Nobody put a gun to your head and said, 'Hey, you have to work 80 hours. You have to get on the wheel and work this hard and grind this hard.'" You can blow your life up in a good way.
You can say, "Hey, you know what, I'm burning the ships that I'm tied to that are not good for me or my family, that are unhealthy." And I can make new decisions about how we live our lives that honor God and honor family in a much bigger way. And, so, it was men like that, in my life, that started making me go, "You know what, I don't have to live this way. And God will take care of me if I make the right decisions."
I knew in my heart, the right decision, for me, over those years, it became more and more clear finally by end of 2014, moving into '15. I had a sit down with the guys and I told them, "Hey, I've been at odds. I've had this tension. I know that this lifestyle is not the healthiest for me and for my marriage and family, and I know that God's calling me out of this, very difficult conversation. I write about it in great detail in the book.
The guys were, obviously, hurt. It was very hard. We grew up together. I was the face of the band. So I felt my biggest fear was, "What will everybody do without me? I'm the singer of the band." And I remember that still small voice in my spirit just reminding me that I'm not the only child of God that He loves. He'll take care of everybody else just like He'll take care of me, and that is not my responsibility. And I shouldn't think more of myself than I ought.
And, so, yes, it was a hard decision but here we are today. It's been almost five years now, stepping up. It was five or six years ago.
Dr. Kim: I want to go back to when you were talking about being on the road, and you said this earlier, and then you talked again about going on the road. But when you would come back home. How difficult that was sometimes for you and Sarah to get back on the same page again.
Matt: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Talk a little bit about that. Because, I think, a lot of guys deal with that.
Matt: Absolutely. It's that the re-entry into the home once you've been gone. And, Sarah, and I'm sure, like you said, so many men relate to this. When they travel or are working long hours, your family is forced, for survival's sake, to get into a pattern that works for them without you always available.
And when you get back into where you're like, "Hey, I'm here." And it's outside of the typical pattern or routine, in a way, you're, kind of, messing things up for them. And, so, yes, you feel that tension of like, "Okay, actually, we have to find a new routine." And how do I, lovingly, put myself back into this routine and still learn how to respect the fact that they've been? Because of my decisions, kind of, forced them to find ways to live without me.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Matt: And, how do I now, lovingly, try to navigate that and be present, but also be mindful of that transition. And, I think, for me, I failed so hard so many times at that, and it was so frustrating for me at times. And it really did take a good long while for us to find that pattern again but it was worth it. Because once we found it, there was so much reward in it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think so. And I think of a couple of couples I've dealt with in similar situations, and the wife is saying to me, "We're doing really good and we're clicking along, and then he comes home, and then everything, poof, again. And then he leaves again and then we get all messed up and then he leaves again." So, I think that is a real challenge for any men that are in that situation.
Matt: Yes, it is.
Dr. Kim: But, again, it just takes, I think, probably, communication and "How do we make this work?" Because God wants it to work.
Matt: And, again, the willingness to have those conversations, even when they're hard.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Matt: Again, that thing that Sarah has done so well to teach me over the years that I'm finally getting down. The willingness to engage in those conversations and hear her, and hear what she has to say, and take it to heart.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. It's amazing what our wives have, all the wisdom they have, we just have to finally begin to value that and listen.
Matt: That's right.
Dr. Kim: Okay, so we talked about telling the band, stepping aside. What has God done since you were obedient to that? When you said, "Okay, God, I'm going to let go of this and I am going to do what I think you want me to do."
Matt: Yes, so much unexpected blessing has come from this decision. I do, kind of, I personally look at Peter and him stepping out of that boat into an unknown way of walking on the water. How terrifying that must have been to want to go to where Jesus was.
Dr. Kim: Mm.
Matt: And to just know that your only hope is to just say, "Okay, my eyes are on you and I'm going to walk and put the full weight of this life into something that seems unstable, knowing that only you can carry me." And, I think, I really felt that it was like stepping away from this career I had known for so long, and it was hard to get the other foot out of the boat. I kind of wanted to keep one in for a while. But when I, finally, started walking, every single step felt like a miracle.
So even just that of God's provision, taking care of our family. Even though I didn't know what that would look like, financially, and ministry-wise. Giving me an opportunity to use my voice, and my gifts in new ways that I never anticipated. That's been the biggest blessing, as I've just opened my hand and said, "Okay, Lord, what do you have for me now in this season?" He's brought some really amazing relationships.
One of the first doors that opened was my friend, Bob Lepine, who used to be with Family Life Ministries called me and said, "Hey, Matt, would you consider coming out and speaking for our Family Life Weekend to Remember Conferences a few times a year and join our team." And I just said, I felt like it was supposed to be yes.
And then I met so many people there, and then Kirk Cameron called and said, "Hey, you want to come be part of this marriage and family event that I'm doing?" And, once a month, for three years, we run a tour bus together and gotten to make several albums still. I got to write to book Lead Me, which I never would've gotten to do.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Matt: And one of the coolest things that we did, most recently, was we made a documentary called Bowen's Heart, that just came out. It was accepted into the Nashville Film Festival in 2020. And now we've gotten to share the intricacies of our story, and give people a very vulnerable look at what our life is like with a child, with chronic illness.
In hopes of showing other families they're not alone and showing them how, over time, we've learned to take what would be perceived as brokenness. But only in God's grace who can, actually, use it, instead of tearing us apart to pull us back together as a family.
And, so, Bowen's Heart it's, it's out now everywhere you watch or rent movies, Apple, Amazon, and Google and all that. So, kind of, neat to see that out in the world and getting stories, now, of how something that's not just me on a platform singing, but it's our whole family together having a ministry. And to see what God's doing with that is such a blessing.
Dr. Kim: It's just amazing what God does when He leads us. Led you out of the band, out of all of that, and then the blessings He's given you, and I just hear that story all the time. I think it's just hard, sometimes, for us to take that step of obedience, that you were willing to take.
Matt: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Kim: But, hopefully, this encourages people to say, "Yes, I can do that too. I can take that step and trust God." It certainly is a step of faith, for sure. I just love your analogy going back to Peter and getting out of the boat, absolutely. And to get both feet out of the boat, I think, I would be more like you. I would try to have one foot in and one foot out and say, "Hey, can I balance things this way?" When God wants both feet out.
Matt: Yep.
Dr. Kim: For sure. So some men that may be listening and they're thinking, "I think, I want to move in that direction." Where would they start? What are some practical steps to leading well? To being the leader that God wants us to be as husbands?
Matt: Yes, I think, it, really, does go back, first, to allowing God to take away those delusions that we have about who we are like we already talked about.
"What part of me, in my life, am I kind of holding onto for the sake of self-deception so I can survive where I am now." That deception could be, maybe, believing I am somebody who I'm not as a father or a husband.
Or maybe that delusion is, "I have to remain where I am because if I don't, then everything will fall apart." We all self-deceive as a coping mechanism. And, I think, that is really important to say, "Who am I really now versus who I'm meant to become?"
"Who does God want to make me?"
And, I think, asking those hard questions, certainly, is part of it. I think also developing ears to hear. For a long time, and even still at times, gosh, I don't always want to hear the hard things that my wife has to say to me, or that other people have to say to me.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Matt: But being willing to ask hard questions, even of our friends and other men in our lives. "How can I grow?"
"How can I improve?"
"What do you think about my situation where I'm meant to go?"
And then allowing the ears of our hearts to be open to what God is saying to us, first, and then what also our wives are saying to us. I think it's so important. And, man, if there are men out there who are feeling the call, like, "You know what, I am called to make a change in my life for the better for the health of my marriage or family."
I would just be a testimony to them to say that 100% is worth it stepping out with two feet and walking on the water and keeping your eyes on Jesus and experiencing the miracle of faith, and the blessing that comes with it. So that would be my encouragement.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I love the fact that I think, we need people in our life that love us enough to walk with us through that, or to say the things to us that might be hard for us to hear. But I think when we've got somebody that we know really loves us and believes like we do, God really uses those people in our lives. Whether it's Sarah, or friends, or people like that. And, I think, sometimes, as guys, we have a tendency to want to do it alone.
Matt: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And I think God always puts people around to walk with us and God, obviously, provided that for you.
Matt: Yes, what you said is absolutely right about isolation and wanting to do it alone. It's so important for men to develop that community and seek community, and to be the kind of friend that they wish to have in order to develop that community as well.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. So let's talk about the wives that would be listening, now, that might be frustrated. That might be discouraged, they want their husband to engage with the family. What advice would you give them, or maybe speaking something, from Sarah's point of view, what would you say to them?
Matt: Yes, well, I guess, man, it's so difficult, to know exactly what to say. But I think that the willingness to still engage. There's two sides to the engagement in communication when there's hard things to hear.
It is that old book by Emerson Eggerichs, Love & Respect. It's a classic because it is so true that as a fundamental need, of course, we all need love, but there's that certain kind of love that a woman needs from her husband. And there, also, is kind of a fundamental respect that is just desired by a man in his heart.
So when you approach a man about what you need. I think, number one, it is loving and respectful of the marriage, even, and of the relationship to want to say, "Hey, I have some needs. I have some things that I want you to consider."
But then on the other side of that is the approach. And, I think, that's something even Sarah would say she's still learning. "How do I approach Matt, in a tone and the tenor that is less likely to create that defensive spirit in the conversation."
But I do think, sometimes, us guys can hear something we don't want to hear even when it's respectful and have a spirit of defense about it because we don't want to change. And, so, I would also say just be patient with us.
It takes men a lot longer to hear things, sometimes, it's like in and out. We really got to learn to open up the ears of our hearts. And, lastly, I would say don't be afraid to speak and be truthful about what you need. Take a loving and respectful approach, be patient, and, obviously, the one that seems so obvious, but we often forget is pray. Just pray for him and for his heart.
That God would open his heart to hear what God is saying to him, and the words that you're trying to speak.
Dr. Kim: Yes. We talk a lot about being a student of your spouse. And, I think, that's what you're saying. For the wives, how do they say that in a way that their husband's going to hear.
Because we do get defensive as guys, very easily. Our ego gets in the way. All this junk that we deal with, as guys, and, so, how is the best way to talk to your husband? And, really, I would say be prayerful about that and ask God to give you the right words, right timing. I think timing is always important. You don't want to talk about it when he is on the way out the door. You got to have time to [Inaudible 00:31:53]
Matt: Very true.
Dr. Kim: Sit down and just talk about it. Yes, that's good. And I love that Sarah said that she's still learning because, I think, it is. I think it is ongoing process for us with our spouses, to continue to learn about them. How do we communicate better? How do we love better? All those things.
Matt: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Then I think there's the marriages that last a lifetime because of doing that over and over.
Matt: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So tell us a little bit about what you're doing now, and what you're going to be doing in the next couple of years.
Matt: Yes, I'm always writing a little bit of music, sometimes, for myself and sometimes for other artists. But one of the cool things I've just gotten to do over the past few months is write and produce a biblical truth, memorization kids' album. For Summit Ministries out of Colorado Springs. So that's been a neat project.
And then I'm also launching a curriculum. It's a short booklet with some videos for an organization that has a fatherhood program for dads and unplanned pregnancies. And, so, encouraging, it's really a call to step up to be a father and the joy of being a father, and some practical and spiritual advice on that journey.
So that's been really exciting and I'm still out doing events.
Dr. Kim: I love that.
Matt: Yes, so it's a lot of things.
Dr. Kim: A lot of good things. When you said that, for the fathers, I don't think there's anything out there for them that I know of, and there's a number of men that fall in that category.
Matt: Yes, absolutely. So we're, really, trying to develop something powerful and simple, but very engaging to the heart.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Matt: For those guys who come into these pregnancy resource centers and they're told their voice doesn't matter. Their choice doesn't matter.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Matt: So we're trying to engage them to find the calling and realize how much they really do matter.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, they do matter so much. Last question, so what are you and Sarah enjoying most in your marriage right now?
Matt: Wow, that's a really good question. For us, man, I'm, actually, enjoying the fruits right now. We've been married for 21 years at this point, which to some seems like a long time and to other folks seems like a very short amount of time.
So we are enjoying, I would say, the fruit of faithfulness to one another. Faithfulness to the conversation that has been really difficult. We, like everybody else, at times have thought, "Gosh, would it just be easier to walk away from this and get out of this mess, and go find another life?" Just like people, we all think those thoughts. One of the things that somebody said to me, one time, they said is, "If the grass looks greener on the other side, water your own grass."
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good.
Matt: I love that saying. And we've spent a lot of hard work watering our grass, and it's starting to become greener, finally, and, especially, in this communication area. And, so, we, for a lot of years had, really, difficult communication, especially, conflict.
We struggle with conflict resolution, and we're finally at that point where we're learning the pattern to give space where space is needed. Give an apology where an apology is needed. Give listening ears where listening ears, and affirmation, and validation, and all that.
Part of that process that has made our communication so much better. So I think we're just enjoying the sweetness of more peace in our communication. And as our kids are getting bigger, our oldest just turned 16, and, so, now we're able to pass some of the wisdom to them as they prepare for their life.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, I love that. Because I think so many couples give up early in their marriages today. And for you and Sarah's story that you persevered through those things, and now you're reaping the benefits.
Sometimes, I think, in our instant gratification culture, we want those to happen right now, but the work's worth it and what you invest in it.
Matt: Absolutely. It just gets better and better when you can make it through.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Yes, that's what saddens me, when I see couples get divorced a few years into their marriage. They're not going to get to where you and Sarah are, and it's so rewarding when you get there.
Matt: It is.
Dr. Kim: It's very good. Well, the book is Lead Me: Finding Courage to Fight for Your Marriage, Children, and Faith. it's available everywhere. Matthammitt.com is that the best way to find you?
Matt: Yes.
Dr. Kim: It sounds to me like, because I was on there. Everything about Matt Hammitt is on there.
Matt: Yes, you'll find me real easy. That's right.
Dr. Kim: All kinds of things like that. Thank you for spending time with us today. Thanks for sharing your story. I encourage everybody to grab that book. It's going to be something that will have an impact on your life.
Matt: Thanks so much for having me, Dr. Kim,
[00:37:04] < Music >
Dr. Kim: I have a question for you. Has the Awesome Marriage podcast helped your marriage? If you've benefited from the content of The Awesome Marriage podcast, now, is the very best time to write and review the show.
Because for a limited time you could win a $250 Amazon gift card when you tell us about it. The giveaway is simple. Just leave a rating and written review wherever you listen to podcasts. Then screenshot it and submit it at awesomemarriage.com for your chance to win.
Sending in your screenshot will automatically enter you into the giveaway. It helps so much when you rate and review the show because reviews, well, they boost the show's visibility in the podcast apps, which helps more listeners find us.
Marriage is hard, and so many marriages need the encouragement of biblical principles and time-tested wisdom. To enter the giveaway, visit awesomemarriage.com/podcast-giveaway, or use the link in our show notes.
We will choose four winners completely at random. We appreciate your support of The Awesome Marriage podcast.
[00:38:05] < Music >
Lindsay: Are you and your spouse as unified as you would like to be? We know it takes some work to get on the same page and it definitely takes work to stay there. And that's why we created our Couples' Unity Building Journal.
This journal is designed to help you take a real honest look at key areas of your marriage, and work together to communicate effectively and get unified. With this resource, you'll spend time journaling, praying, and then discussing your entries together.
This resource is a 26-page PDF with nine sections, on common pain points that marriages struggle with. Each section has questions to reflect on, pray about and answer, and then to discuss with your spouse. So you get closer and more unified on the things that matter.
This edifying resource is our gift to say thank you for your donation, of any amount, to help more people around the world experience. God's awesome plan for their marriage. This resource is available for a donation of any amount at the link in our show notes.
Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few with music by Noah Copeland.
If you haven't signed up for Dr. Kim's Weekly Marriage Multiplier Email. We encourage you to do so today. Marriage is hard and life is busy. Which is why we need real, practical, reminders of ways to build an awesome marriage.
Sign up today to get this quick and compelling email from Dr. Kim each week. If you enjoyed this content, share the podcast with a friend.
[00:39:49] < Outro >