Become the Spouse You're Made to Be With Levi & Jennie Lusko | Ep. 534
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Well, it's so good to welcome Levi and Jennie back to the podcast, and this time you're not separate, you're together. So welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast to both of you, guys.
Jennie: Thank you so much, Dr. Kim, it's great to be here again. Thanks for having us.
Levi: And we're happy to be here together.
Jennie: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's pretty cool. On a marriage podcast you ought to not separate the couple. I mean, that doesn't go along with what we're talking about.
Levi: It feels right.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it feels right. So we're going to talk about a lot of things about this new book, The Marriage Devotional. Just from a standpoint of someone that writes, also, what was it like to write this together? And was it different than-
Levi: How long do you have? Because-
Dr. Kim: I mean, you're still married, right?
Levi: We're still married, still happily. This last week we celebrated 19 years since I proposed to her, so we'll hit the anniversary soon. But just looking back on almost 20 years since we have been promised in marriage, and we had so much fun.
We've both written, of course, by ourselves and, so, we were a little bit nervous. How's this going to be processed? Because we have very different writing processes. But we both felt such a big conviction. And one of the big things we believe is when you have a sense of calling, it makes the hardships easier.
Jennie: Mh-hmm, so true.
Levi: And, so, we felt a sense of purpose. It wasn't just like, "Oh, what are we going to do next?" We both felt like God's Holy Spirit really prompted us to work on this resource, this tool. And because of that, yes, there was, sanctification moments, but it was also, honestly, so fun together.
Jennie: Yes, and I think what I love, also, about the Devotional is that there are ones that we write together. And then there's ones that are just me, and ones that are just him. So I feel like you get our voices. And, so, that was fun to just fully be like, "Okay, this is me. This is me writing it, it's not me and Levi, it's me." But then, also, to hear his voice and our voice together, it was just really fun.
And whenever a married couple does something like this. Risks and does something that will, hopefully, help people grow in their relationship, and dive deeper into the Word. There's going to be hard stuff that comes up because the enemy doesn't want us to do this.
So, I mean, we've definitely felt that just spiritual attack and just hard stuff. As a result of just walking and what God was asking us to do. But it's been so good and I love it, and I really think it's going to help couples.
Dr. Kim: Oh, yes, so did either one of you learn anything about the other person that you didn't know before?
Levi: That's a good question.
Jennie: Hmm, that's a good question.
Levi: The thing that, and I'll have to let that marinate before something will come to me, I'm sure that's the case. But one thing that struck me was, we were recording the audio book for it, and we did something we've never done before. Where, as Jennie mentioned, she's got her parts, I've got mine. But then there's lots of parts that are written with our same voice, you'll just see Levi, and we put that in there.
So readers will know this section was written by Levi, this section was written by Jennie. But the audio book we did it in that way. But then the parts we wrote together, we actually were in the studio together reading it and we were riffing and changing, and just having fun. And giving some of the audio book listeners stuff that maybe the book wouldn't get above and beyond.
And it was funny, we both felt this we were ministered to by ourselves. The Lord, because of the things we're going through right now. We were reading something and it was like, "Oh, wow, I really needed to hear that."
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: And it was just funny, the Lord using ourselves to minister to ourselves in the season that we're in now. Which is different, honestly, than it was a year and a half ago when we started working on this.
Jennie: Right, that's so true. Well, and I think, too, I mean, when you're studying for a message. When you're studying anything, you're learning so much. And I think that in this, as I was writing about things that I've struggled with or I've learned, and then hearing things that Levi's learned and grown in.
I guess I just felt so encouraged because it was like, "Man, looking back on our marriage, looking back on our relationship. Looking back on you and your growth, and just seeing such beauty and almost 19 years of marriage. Just seeing the beauty, and the flourishing, and the strength from the hard work that we've put into it. It was just really special to me, to just be reminded, "Oh, my gosh, God's done so much in our lives."
Dr. Kim: It's really a celebration, it sounds like. A celebration of what God's done.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: And, hopefully, that's motivation to people, not bragging, our marriage is so good. Hopefully-
Jennie: We're still learning and growing.
Levi: Yes, of course.
Dr. Kim: We are too.
Levi: Yes, the cool thing, though, is that, Dr. Kim, the standard, you guys can be. When we can tell people, "Hey, marriage is possible. I know it's not easy, but there is a thriving version of your marriage." We want to present people with that.
Not an unrealistic version that's fake, but one that says, "Hey, look, if you work hard, you can see results. You can see your marriage be a blessing to you." And I do think that's important because everybody loves to talk about how hard marriage is. But we've always felt a conviction that we want to be an example to people that marriage is, also, fun.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: And that there's a lot to look forward to.
Jennie: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I agree. And it's funny, Nancy and I have been married 50 years now. And, so, it is funny how people look at us now because we've made it, and we try to be really honest and transparent about our stories. That this wasn't a cakewalk, we went through a lot of tough things over the years.
But it is encouraging, and the stuff that we do, a lot of stuff we do online it's just for fun. And I want people to see us having fun together. Because I think that's such an important thing that you brought up. Sometimes I'll work with somebody in counseling and I'll say, "What do you do for fun?" And they get the deer-in-the-headlights look.
And I say, "Well, what'd you do when you were dating?" And then they give me 20 things they did. And, so, that's so important to people, to see that it is fun. Yes, it's work, but golly, there's a lot of fun.
Levi: Dr. Kim, what do we have to look forward to? What's fun for you and your wife now? What do you guys love to do? I'm sure, you've a lot more discretionary time being empty nesters, right?
Dr. Kim: It is. Grandkids are amazing. I thought our kids were the best thing in the world and they're not, grandkids are. But I would say that we do a good job with the extra time that we have. We started playing pickleball together about a year and a half ago. And we got some good friends we play with, and the grandkids play sometimes.
And, so, we're always looking for something new to do together. And now that we have some time to do that because we don't have to be home to do homework. All those days of having to be home to feed somebody, and those things are freeing. And, so, we look for new things to do and new adventures. And, so, we love this stage in life, it's just great.
Jennie: Wow.
Levi: Well, we can't wait, honestly, come quickly right now. Send help now.
Dr. Kim: Exactly, so we talked just a minute before getting on, Levi, about Scripture and how this book gets us into Scripture. And how that's not a popular thing, right now, for some reason. As just an individual believer, why does it matter that we get into Scripture?
Levi: Wow, well, what a great question. Yes, we have such a conviction, Dr. Kim, about pointing people to the Word. Jesus said, from Genesis through Revelation, "These are they, which concern me."
And it was Him pointing to Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers, Isaiah, and showing how He was at the center of it, that caused the hearts of the disciples to burn on the road to Emmaus. And that caused them to go from despondent and discouraged to full of zeal, and racing back to Jerusalem to tell the other people, where before they were afraid.
Barna did a study going into and coming out of the pandemic. Where they asked Americans, "How many of you read the Bible every single day?" And the number actually, shockingly, went down in the pandemic. People were reading less Bible in a time of global fear, uncertainty, division and animosity.
And it's like, "Well, no wonder everyone's so anxious, and depressed, and lonely, and checking out of life, and angry, and divorcing. We needed the Scriptures more than ever and, yet, people were turning to it less. Turning to news more, social media more, binge watching on whatever new platform, that we're now paying 9.99 a month for, so that we can feel anxious. I'm not against Netflix, Jennie and I love a good romance, or drama, or whatever comedy, but we need the Bible.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: We need it more than our necessary food. Jesus said, "We need our earthly food like bread. But more than that, we need the bread that comes from heaven." And it's that which sustains us, and strengthens us, and gives us hope.
And, so, our conviction from the very beginning, for Jennie and I, about this marriage devotional, was that this wasn't just a chance for us to give our opinions. Which do not matter at the end of the day. It's to point people to God's Word.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: That's what marriage needs to be built on. Because if marriage was His idea, and if it was God-given, it should be God-governed. Jennie got a Volvo the other day, and what did I do when I needed to figure out how to set the presets on the seats? I looked to the manual, and in the manual it tells me. And I want Volvo to tell me how to use a Volvo. Just like we should go to God to teach us how to use marriage and not culture, so that's why the Scripture.
I mean, you will find hundreds of verses and a lot of them we give people to look up on their own. Some of them are in the application sections, but a lot of them are our chance to anchor and teach the content through the book.
Jennie: Yes, and one of my favorite verses, John 15:5, Jesus is talking about what it looks like to abide in Him. He's like, "Abide in me and I in you. For if you have abided in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing."
And a part of reading the Word is abiding with Jesus, and deepening that relationship with Him, and allowing Him to speak into my heart. And getting to know Him and what He wants for my life. And, so, if apart from Him we can do nothing, then there's no strength, there's no fruit, there's nothing being cultivated, there's no flourishing, there's no strength apart from Him and His Word and time spent with Him.
And, so, it's vital, like Levi said, it's our food. It's our water. It's our sustenance. It's everything we need in order to live a life that points to Jesus. That is full of strength, and beauty, and kindness, and love, and we can't do anything without Him. So we need the Word, we need it.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I love the way you said that, Jennie, because people have assumptions about the Bible. And, "Well, if I read the Bible, He's going to tell me all this stuff I can't do or a lot of the stuff." But I love that you just focused on the abiding. There's so much peace in the Bible.
And, besides, the things that God tells us that are going to make our lives better, and our marriages better, but there is just a peace in knowing that we're reading the Word of the creator of the universe. He knows, like Levi said, He created marriage, so why don't we go to His manual?
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: That was a great deal. So I do have one side question, Levi, did you get all the stuff on the Volvo worked out?
Levi: You know what, it's a work in process. Those Europeans, they don't make things easy, Dr. Kim. Our previous car was a Honda and, so, we had gotten kind used to that. But, now, Volvo puts everything in a different place, so you got to figure it all out. Which is a little bit like one of the things we try and communicate in the book, and that is your marriage changes from season to season.
Jennie: Mm.
Levi: It's a living thing. It's a dynamic thing. You're changing, your wife's changing, the world's changing. Like you mentioned, now empty nesting, now grandkids. For us, we still have a four-year-old wetting the bed, five-year-old, sorry. I'm working on the ages.
Jennie: Because he drinks too late.
Levi: But he woke up yesterday letting us know he had wet the bed. Which is a really rare thing for him, but that's happening. But, then, we also have our oldest who just turned 17. And, of course, in the next year or so we're going to be looking at college and what God has for her next.
And, so, our marriage is different in this condition than it was 12 years ago or five years ago. And it's going to be different 10 years from now. So just like I need to look at the manual for this new car. Well, you also need to look at the manual for the new season and to see what's happening because God's always doing a new thing.
Jennie: That's right.
Levi: And you can't rely on yesterday's manna, to use Jennie's analogy, because in the children of Israel's experience. If they tried to stockpile the manna it would grow wormy. So, similarly, I can't rely on yesterday's quiet time, or last year's revelation, or what I got out of fasting or praying 10 years ago.
Of course, those things are going to still nourish me. But I need to be letting God teach me new things for this new season. So today I was on my knees asking for Jennie's strength, my strength. As I'm praying for her, it makes me less able to be irritated with her. It's hard to be mad at someone you're praying for.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Jennie: That's so true.
Levi: So, anyhow, I just think it really is so imperative that we let God's Word set the pace for our lives.
Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good, and we would like to think that we get it and we can coast for the rest of our lives, but we don't. Then when we begin to look at the different seasons and phases we go through. And, yes, with raising kids each new space they go into or new challenges, and all those things, then we need God's strength.
Levi: Facts.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. So we've talked about individually the book is for couples, it's a marriage devotional. Why does it matter that couples get in the Word together?
Levi: Great question.
Jennie: Hmm, gosh, I mean, everything Levi was saying about if God gave it, we should let God govern it. And I think that if we're not seeking God in a deeper relationship with Jesus on our own, that's going to be hard to do together.
And, so, that's a key thing is we are in love with Jesus on our own and He's number one. But, then, as we do that He's the center of our relationship and, so, for us to be able to. I mean we don't always read the Word together, in terms of like, "Oh, let's read the Word together."
Levi: The actual Bible [Inaudible 00:15:39]
Jennie: Yes, but we're reading the Word together. We're reading through the Bible this year, separately, together.
But it has been amazing because we'll read the reading for the day, and things will come up that we're both like, "Oh, my gosh, this is incredible." And then it gives us something to talk about, and to consider.
Levi: To laugh about.
Jennie: To laugh about, the Bible's funny, but that has been life changing. And it's funny because we've done this before.
Levi: Multiple times.
Jennie: We've read through the Bible on the YouVersion app, too. And this year we're just reading, he's reading the King James Version paper.
Levi: Mixing it up.
Jennie: And I'm reading New King James, and it has been revolutionary. And I was telling Levi, as we ran and then we walked, which was awesome. But the fact that I feel like I'm reading through the Bible like I've never done it before, and just the things that God has been opening my eyes to, and there's just an awe, and a wonder. And, "Oh, my gosh, I've read this before but I've not read this before."
And like Levi was saying, too, it's like I've never been in this part of the Scripture in this season of my life, and God's speaking something fresh to my soul, and He's opening my eyes, and He is building up my curiosity for more of Him. And, so, as we read separately but then we discuss together, God is just knitting our hearts together even more, and it's been so deepening for our relationship.
Levi: Well, and it makes sense. A lot of couples are going to try and, sometime, this year, just trying to get closer to each other.
Jennie: Mm-hmm.
Levi: And hear me what I'm saying, of course, that sounds like, "Wait, what do you mean? How's that a bad thing?" Well, in and of itself that's not a bad thing but I think it's a flawed approach. Meaning if I'm trying to get closer to Jennie, I'm making more and more her the center of my heart.
But if I'm just trying to get close to Jesus and she happens to be doing the exact same thing. Well, then, by default we're getting closer to each other because we're both making Jesus the center of our hearts. So we like to picture a triangle. If two people in a triangle are moving towards the point or the fulcrum you're getting closer to each other, even though you're not trying to get to each other.
Jennie: Mm.
Levi: So it's, almost, the whole, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God." Sorry to shift into King James. "And His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you." It's like if you pursue Jesus, you get the marriage thrown in. Whereas if you try and just save the marriage in and of itself, well, we do a really bad job of completing each other. And, so, some time in the Word, together, will really revolutionize your relationship.
Jennie: That's good.
Dr. Kim: I love it. And that's the way Nancy and I've done with the Bible, and we've done this for seven or eight years. But we don't really sit down and read it together but we read the same thing, and then we can interact on it. And I would reiterate everything you guys said.
I mean, it's so amazing when you read something and you think, "Okay, I've been reading the Bible through every year for so many years, I never saw that before. Well, I did. But today it meant something. Today it made an impact on my life. Today it was different than when I read it last year." I just want people to see that in the Bible, that it is so unique and it's like, yes, it was written thousands of years ago, but it's so relevant to every day of our lives.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: And what's trippy, though, is thinking God is outside of time, He sees the end from the beginning. So, literally, Dr. Kim, when you read last week, the thing you did that touched you, God in His Holy Spirit's sovereignty and understanding and omniscience, He knew what you were going to be dealing with as He put those words into the heart of Jeremiah, or Matthew, or Paul.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Levi: Which is outrageous to think that He saw the implications through the hurricane to the butterflies' wings. Of how He was going to use that in your life and how it was going to hit me in the same way, but deal with a different thing. Which is just mind blowing and you don't want to miss it.
It's like the whole question about the tree making the sound in the forest. If God really does have new mercies each morning, I hate the thought that a day ends and I didn't go to His throne to get those mercies that I can never get those back. I can get tomorrow's mercies, but I can't ever get yesterday's mercies back. And, so, to quote Aerosmith, "I don't want to miss a thing."
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Jennie: Good one.
Dr. Kim: That's just so true, and it's just amazing, and it's so cool that He did that for us.
Levi: Heck, yes.
Jennie: Well, like you said earlier, Dr. Kim, how the Word is alive, it's living and it's powerful. And what it's able to do in us that we aren't even fully aware of most of the time. It's able to discern, and slice, and bring life, and beauty, and strength, and purpose, and there's just so much that it's doing that we can, sometimes, only even see the surface things. We'll read something and we'll see, "Oh, my gosh, this impacted me." But so much more was impacting us that we don't even know.
Levi: It might not even be the thing you think you need.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: I always tell my church to watch out for the perceived sense of, "I didn't get anything out of that sermon." Because the truth is what we actually needed and we might not even realize. God can speak a word in season, but He is also capable of speaking a word out of season. That is to say He might be tucking a revelation inside your heart, for a situation you don't even know that you're going to be facing in a coming day.
So we have to always have a real sense of humility, reading Scripture, that we're not the best judges of what we actually need. Because the thing that might get everybody on their feet, clapping, might not be the actual thing you really needed. It might be a conviction; it might be a chastisement.
David said, "Before I was afflicted, I went astray." So he got off course, he's saying. "I was astray and then I was afflicted it brought me back." And that's what the shepherd does. He doesn't just give the sheep the tasty treat of green grass and cool waters. He also uses that rod, which is basically a club. And, so, God in His mercy knows exactly what we need.
Everyone loves that verse, "So shall My word that comes from my mouth, it will not return to me void." You know that God's going to do what His promise says he is going to do. And the tragedy of that verse is a lot of people stop right there. But you have to keep reading, in that chapter, to know that He next says, "That instead of the thorn bush you might have the myrtle."
Basically what He's saying is what is this we're trying to do? He's trying to take the thorny parts of our heart and to bring about lush, flourishing, tropical, beautiful foliage. So if we let God's Word have its way, our marriages don't have to be full of thorns. When you touch the bush and, "Oh, man, that hurts." The nettle gets you, it stings your finger, that's what a lot of people's marriages are like.
They're just, "We're getting stung. We're getting our feelings hurt. We're going to bed angry. We wanted to make love but they weren't interested.
They weren't giving us what we wanted. Or they took all the money, and did blah, blah, blah, and they don't watch the kids." Marriages are full of stinging.
But when you know God's word, "Not return to you void." But you let it supersede feelings and supersede vindictive behavior, all of these things, eventually, your marriage can be fresh. It can be a source of blessing. It can feel like a palm tree, who doesn't love a palm tree? And I think that's what God intends for us to experience.
Levi: Oh, that's so good.
Dr. Kim: That's so good.
Jennie: I think Levi brought up something so good, as far as, being in church together. And I think that's, also, because, also, we want to read the Bible and we want to be growing together, as a couple. But, also, being in church together, in a church where you're receiving the word together. I've seen so many couples in our church, where there's growth where there was death before. Where they were on the brink of divorce and God just-
Levi: Or maybe murdery.
Jennie: Maybe murdery, and God just brought life into their marriage. And what's so beautiful about being in church together, is you're both receiving God's word. But there's such a strength that happens when you listen together. And I think that that's just an over overall statement of when you come to church and you gather with God's church, with God's people, when the Word is preached. There's something powerful that happens as we're listening to it together. Because we'll glean something, someone else will hear something else that God will speak something.
And, so, then, when you get together with a small group and you talk about it. When you get together with your spouse and you talk about it, there's a deepening that happens. And it's so important to be in church and to be the church, together, as a married couple. Because there's strength that comes from that. And when you brought that up, I was reminded of that small village-
Levi: Yes, [Inaudible 00:24:26] on vacation, the other day. It was Sunday and we found a church and went to it, and just to sit there together holding hands under the teaching of God's word, it was a reminder to both of us.
Of course, normally, one of the two of us is preaching or traveling when the other one is not. But to sit together under God's word, to sit there without the pressure of, "Oh, man, I need to preach for other people." And for us to go, "Hey, we both want to be under this as well." And I just think that really is a game changer.
Jennie: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Yes, we always, usually, are in church together. There's a difference when she's not beside me. I just think of how God has used that in our marriage. I was going to ask you, I've talked to so many pastors the last few months, who because of the pandemic, everybody's not coming back. And just what you and Jennie were saying, we need to be in that building.
We need to be in there together, there's so much value. I remember the first time that Life Church opened back up and we went and, of course, chairs were scattered. You couldn't even see the other people in the building. But when they started the worship music, it was just like, "Oh, yes, it's different being in here than being online." And I love online, thank goodness we had it during the pandemic.
Levi: Yes.
Dr. Kim: But there is something about being in there, and just the presence of God in that place that is just very special.
Levi: Well, it's so true. And there will never be, at least in my heart, a life where online is not a part of the strategy to reach out to people who, maybe, are on the fringe or who aren't comfortable, yet, to come in. It'll always, hopefully, reach people and there's a place for it.
But I do think that, like you said, if you're not worshiping with other voices around you. The Bible says, "God, inhabits the praises of His people." So it's not just about me singing, I can worship God alone. But when there's a gathering and what that looks like, I know that people will gather together and watch church online and that's powerful. But I just think the key thing is that we're not meant to live life in isolation.
Jennie: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Levi: And just to consume, but to be bringing friends, and to be doing it together, and it will invigorate your marriage. I personally think there's nothing sexier than seeing someone praise God.
Because you're realizing that's what they were born to do and there's such a strength in it, and a power in it, and that's in good seasons and bad seasons. It's amazing what happens when you get your priorities at the right place. How you give God something to bless.
Jennie: Well, and there's a richness, because, yes, coming and hearing the word and worshiping together, but there's a richness with just doing life with people. I mean, we've heard, "It takes a village to raise a family." And it also takes a village to have a strong marriage because you see older couples.
To get to see you and Nancy be faithful in marriage for 50 years, that's beautiful, and that's inspiring, and when you're in the church you get that. You get a bunch of people who some are, amazingly, happily, older, married and some aren't. And you get all the examples of what to do and what not to do.
And you, also, get to be an example to younger couples, and younger singles, and kids. And we need to see Jesus in action, in all of us, in different phases and different people, and there's life that happens when we do that together.
Levi: Yes, a lot has been said about how the church needs to be like heaven, and that it's every tribe, tongue, and language, and that's important. But it's also, equally, important to recognize the church needs to be generational.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: "One generation shall extol another about God's glorious works."
Jennie: Mm.
Levi: So it is important and vitally essential that young are seeing the old and worshiping alongside that. Because there is something that's lost in the experience when a church is just all one race.
And it's also true that a church that would be all 20-somethings would be at a great disadvantage, in not having the example of the older generation to be inspired by in their faithfulness. And then, also, the older generation to be challenged by and invigorated by the energy, and the fresh ideas, and the revelation. It's the old and the young in partnership, that really is also the kingdom of God.
Jennie: Mm.
Dr. Kim: That's so true. You just made me think of before we had kids, having kids, we always looked for that couple in our church that was at least a stage ahead of us. That we could sit down with and we could say, "How did you do this? What do we need to be doing or not doing? Or we don't know what to do?"
And to have that where you know that their foundation is the same as yours. That you're both coming from wanting to serve God and belief in Christ, it was invaluable to us. We had so many people that mentored us and poured into us over the years-
Levi: And look at that, now, you're doing the exact thing in reverse, you're offering yourself, generously. It's like comfort we get comfort so we can give it. I think you were saying, "I was hungry for that example." And now you're seeking to be that, so good on you for paying that forward.
Jennie: Good.
Dr. Kim: Yes, because it meant so much to us to have that, as we were growing up.
Jennie: Amazing
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[00:30:50] < Music >
Dr. Kim: So the quote that you said, "Great husbands and wives are made not born." What are some of the ways you've worked at being a great husband? And then I'm going to ask Jennie about being a great wife.
Levi: Well, I would never consider myself a great husband.
Jennie: You are a great husband.
Levi: I'm growing though. I've grown, I've seen growth. I've seen the Holy Spirit lead and I've sought to grow in it. And there's nothing in my life more important. No accomplishment, no ministry opportunity means more to me than being a husband to Jennie and a dad to Alivia, and Daisy, and Clover, and Lennox, and Lenya while we had her.
If I don't go to that conference or if I don't speak next Sunday, guess what, someone else can, someone else will. But who else can love Jennie? Who else can pray for Olivia and, and serve them in that way? And that's my most important ministry, and everything else that happens from there.
Like the Prophet Jeremiah was told, "It starts at Anathoth." No one knows who Anathoth, where Anathoth is. But that's Jeremiah's first and most important ministry, it's home.
Jennie: Hmm.
Levi: And then God sent him to Jerusalem, and Egypt, and whatever, but he said, "Can you do it at Anathoth? Can you start here?" And I think a lot of people want to go do great things for God. But God doesn't want to export anything that's not working at home. And, so, I've sought to grow by, as you alluded to, asking wise, seasoned men who are older than me. Looking at their example first. Going, "Hey, how does he serve her? How does he love her? How can I pattern myself after that?
The Bible says, "Follow the example of those who you've seen inherit the promises." So I'm not basing my marriage strategy off of someone who's a bad leader. I want to see what does this look like at home? What does victory look like there?
So that's been the example through repentance. Through calling myself on it where I've not measured up to the standard. And, then I would say, lastly, studying. I try and study Jennie. I try and learn what makes her thrive.
Partially because, like Pavlov's dog, if there's a reward in it. If you're going to get the treat, your mouth is going to salivate. So it's like, "Hey, if Jenny seems to like it if I make the bed." Well, guess what, that's not that hard of a thing, if I can make the bed. I made my bed this morning because I want her to see it and I want to get a treat. It's like I'm a little puppy.
Those little things, though, I don't want to keep burning my hand on the stove and not learn because that's just, "The height of stupidity." Einstein said. Expecting different results from the same activity. So that's what I would say.
Jennie: Mm.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. And I think we do have to continue to study our spouse. I mean, if I look back over how Nancy, I knew her well at 20-years-old, but she's a different person in so many ways. There's a lot of that 20-year-old there. But if I hadn't, I would've missed out on so much if I would've just quit studying her.
Levi: And a big part of this is just asking the question, "Hey, what do you like? What am I not doing? What do I not see?" Because it's funny because you keep doing something and it's like, "I did this because I thought you liked it." And it's like, "Actually, I don't need you to do that." And it's like, "Oh, amazing because I never liked doing it either." So that's really helpful.
Dr. Kim: You can take that off the table.
Levi: Yes, great.
Dr. Kim: So Jenny.
Jennie: Levi, I love growing with you and I love learning the hard way with you. And I would say, like what you're saying about being strong at home. I love the quote, I don't know who said it you will know, "The light that shines the farthest burns the brightest at home."
And I think that that has been both an inspiration and a challenge, to me, my whole life. I feel like it's easy for me to be kind to a stranger and so hard for me to be kind and loving to my husband and my kids.
It's just one of those things that's like it's easy for me to just be helpful to someone else but not help my husband. And what I've seen God do and grow me in, and what I want to grow in more is burning the brightest at home and shining the furthest from home, and being my best with Levi and my kids.
And, so, I feel like I've learned the hard way by not being that. And I think that there's so much beauty and strength in learning the hard way and falling flat on my face. And, like Levi said, walking in humility into being like, "I totally messed up there, I'm so sorry." And I feel like that mentality and that heart of just learning from hard things, has been something that has helped me grow as a wife. And I have so much more growth to do, but I'm just thankful for a husband who's gracious, and patient, and gentle.
Dr. Kim: That's awesome. Very awesome, that's so cool. I just stopped and drink that in a little bit, that was so good. Okay, let's talk just a minute, sex is discussed a lot in the devotional. So many people think God doesn't think about our sex life or is aware of it. So what's the connection? Why is that in the book and how does God look at sex?
Levi: Yes, that's so good. Well, we just knew right away, when we were going to write a book about marriage it was going to not be the varnished, lacquered, to go on the mantel. We wanted to really get down to the nuts and bolts and talk about it. That brings so much pleasure and pain to people's lives.
Jennie: Mm.
Dr. Kim: A lot of pain because of unarticulated expectations, unhealed baggage and trauma that's brought into the marriage. And, honestly, having a frame of reference that's unrealistic and maybe more shaped from culture than from the Scriptures.
And the Bible has so much to say about sex. An actual, astounding amount, both good and evil. It is a part of who we are. God made us male and female in His image. So a part of how we relate to each other and enjoy or misuse this gift of sex, is fundamentally a part of how we were built.
And, so, to use, or in order to misuse sex is to bring about either God's best or what He knows is His second best or far worse in that for our lives. And, so, we try and point people back to what the Scripture has to say. And what does it say? "It says sex is a gift. It's to be undefiled."
And inside the marriage it's undefiled, it's to be enjoyed, it's to be spoken well of, it's, technically, one of the first gifts God ever gave to us after He gave the nap in Genesis. He put a deep sleep on Adam, and once he woke up, he had bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh, and he was excited about that. And God said, "It's good."
God proclaimed this special blessing, this Barack blessing over what He had given to us. And, so, we have to start with that. So the sex wasn't the devil's idea. So this idea of sex is dirty, naughty, and gross, to save it for your wife is not biblical.
Jennie: Right.
Levi: It is to be a delight. It's to warm up your heart. It's to help you heal. It's to give you courage. It's to keep you together. It's an offensive weapon and it's an incredible thing to grow in. And just like you quoted from the book about, "Great husbands and wives are are made not born." You also are going to grow in your gift of how you use and steward sexuality.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: And over time it's meant to become like a fine wine. Jennie and I are unapologetic about saying we're having better sex and more enjoyable sex than we ever have in our lives. 19 years in, and we're just, just figuring out, I can't wait to see what's around the riverbend. And the thought of-
Jennie: Mm.
Dr. Kim: It gets better.
Levi: There you go, so there's Dr. Kim giving his seal of approval, whoop-whoop.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it does.
Levi: So we want to point people to understanding and using this well. And, so, a lot of that's going to take healing and a lot of that's going to take communication, and laughter. Dr. Tim Keller said, "If you don't ever, every once in a while, laugh while you're having sex you are doing it wrong." Because it is so silly.
And if you can't take yourself seriously, you're not in a porno, you're not in a movie. This isn't some quick thing, it's this beautiful incredible love language that God has given to us to. To be able to learn and speak, and just like I couldn't speak French after a week trying it. So to learn and speak fluent in sex with my spouse is going to take a lifetime.
Jennie: Beautiful, so well said.
Levi: That's what I'm here for.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and so many things happen in sex. The funny things do happen.
Levi: Mostly kids banging on the doors for us these days.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Jennie: Have a good lock on your door.
Levi: Yes, that's a really important first step.
Dr. Kim: That's one of the things I tell couples when they get ready to have the first child, "Make sure there's a lock on your bedroom door."
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: And make sure your Disney Plus account is in good standing.
Dr. Kim: Yes. Any thoughts on that part of it, Jennie?
Jennie: Gosh, I don't think I could say it as well as Levi just did.
Dr. Kim: So good.
Jennie: The fact that it's something we can grow in is mind blowing. I mean, Levi and I have talked about it before, to think where we were. We both saved the gift of sex for marriage and when we first got married, the expectations and how it went, it was amazing then. But I would've had no idea that it could be what it is now, it's just incredible.
And I'm so grateful that we both had that view before we got married of the fact that it was a gift, and that we wanted to save it for each other. But even so there's still been difficult things along the way, as far as just communication, and just so much to grow in.
And, so, what's so beautiful it's God's grace covers everything in our lives.
And even in this, I know it can be such a sticky subject for some people who have, like Levi said, there's baggage that they're bringing in. They've had sex with multiple people before marriage, and pornography, and all these things.
And what's so amazing is that no matter where someone is at this very moment. There's hope for strength, and beauty, and growth, and grace, and just an amazing turnaround from maybe what was.
Levi: Yes.
Jennie: Because God's able to do so much more than what we could ever hope for.
Levi: Well, it's just like Dave Ramsey when he brings those people on the show. To scream out, "I'm debt free." And they're like, "We've paid off $37,000." And they're weeping over it. It's like to think you could ever get there. How do you get there? Well, Dave Ramsey always says, "Baby steps."
So to the person listening who is going, "Nah, I don't know if we could ever even get there." No, listen, you could get to a place where your marriage it means even more to you because of that trauma. And it's even more powerful in God's hands because of the broken bone, that He can set, heal. What I understand, a broken bone that heals properly can be actually even stronger than it was before the break. So there's hope for you.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: Sex can be a blessing and the devil doesn't have to use it against you. You can, like Samson said, "Take down the Philistine garrison for your two eyes." And I like to say let's make the devil pay for what he was stupid enough to bring it to our lives. So we speak hope over whatever place you're in.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, I love that, thank you for saying that. I mean, it is and God can redeem all the things that have been in our life before the sex, or whatever the baggage we bring. And I've just seen it, as a counselor, many times that He's built some amazing things and it does take time.
I mean, what I've seen over our marriage is we've gotten closer. As we've figured out more about each other and about what God wants us to do, and what God wants for us in our marriage. All that has made our sex life better because we are more connected, much more connected than we were 50 years ago.
We thought we were connected then, but I don't think we understood the depth of what God could do in a marriage that He's doing with you and Jennie, that He does with other people, as you just give yourself to Him.
Jennie: Yes, that's so true, it's amazing.
Dr. Kim: All right, final question, what are you really enjoying about your marriage today, in this stage?
Levi: Jennie?
Jennie: Well, I feel like there is something to be said about when you have kids. We, as women, we go through a lot with hormones-
Levi: No, the question was, "What are you enjoying?"
Jennie: I know; I'm trying to get there. I'm painting the picture
Levi: All right, excuse me. I was like, "That doesn't sound enjoyable."
Jennie: No, what I'm saying is I feel like there were many years where I was in a cloud, feeling like, "My body is not feeling right. My mind, my brain, hormones, tiredness, postnatal depression." Or I don't know if I've ever actually had it, but it's just a thing, it's just hard.
And I feel like I'm in this season where God's growing me and opening my eyes to see. And I feel like I can see more clearly and I can enjoy more fully. And I feel like as I'm growing with the Lord and Levi is, too.
We were talking about this the other day, in these past, even specifically, these past couple of months. We've just been in a rhythm of just enjoying each other and laughing more. We just had a family vacation, Levi I mentioned, and I think it was the best one that we've ever had. Like there's just-
Levi: Easy, hands down.
Jennie: ...a beauty to it, and a funness. I don't think funness is a word, but I just feel like there's almost an ease, and not that I'm backing off and putting the brakes on, and I'm not working as hard as I have because there's danger in that. But I feel like we're partaking in the fruit of hard work. And with our youngest being five, our oldest being 17, and I feel like that really does also help.
Levi: Compound interest kicks in a little bit. The older ones can watch the younger, it does. Like you've seen with the grandkids, it does. You start to go, "Oh, man, all that hard work." If you saved $1 a day from when you're a kid it adds up.
Parents, start saving for your kids now, you don't have a lot to do it. Kids are saving up for little stuffed animals and stuff, we're teaching them they can incrementally buy stock. It's like, "You don't want to buy something from Amazon or do you want to buy part of Amazon?" You know what I'm saying? But just like that, if you begin putting into the deposit account of your marriage, eventually, there's going to be something there to enjoy.
And I think what Jennie is saying, and I would reiterate that I'm enjoying this season, is seeing, wow, there's dividends coming in from our relationship equity.
From fighting together, from working hard, and that's one of the things we're trying to champion with this book coming out. Is that you can see God's blessings in your arms. You, literally, will be able to hold it. If you go forth sowing even while you weep, one day, you'll come back rejoicing with your arms full of harvest.
And I think in this season, whether we're eating shaved ice, or putting the sermon together, or leading our team, we're grateful for what God's done, but we also have a light touch. Being a pastor, leading, writing, none of that stuff is our identity. Our identity is children of the King.
Jennie: Yes.
Levi: And then we're husband and wife, together, and it's Jennie and I against the world. And if you don't like me that's all right because my wife does like me and I'm happy with that. And, so, we're both on the same page there, and just really grateful for that.
Jennie: Yes.
Dr. Kim: I love that, so well said. The book is The Marriage Devotional and, obviously, it's available everywhere, when this comes out. And where else can they find you, if they want to find you, or find you and Jennie, or find Jennie.
Levi: Well, if we're doing a good job they're not going to find us. We're hiding out, Dr. Kim. We are going to making out in our bomb shelter.
Dr. Kim: The hordes will trickle from the past.
Levi: No, you can find us on our podcast, Hey, It's The Luskos and then at Fresh Life Church most Sundays.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I love what you guys do together and apart. I love what goes on at Fresh Life. I love being able to keep up with that. And just thank you, guys, for taking time out of your schedules to spend some time with us, sharing your experiences and wisdom. And I'm excited for everybody to hear this, to pick up this book, and grow in the relationship with each other and with God, so thanks again, guys.
Jennie: Thank you so much for having us. Thank you for your faithfulness. Thank you for what you do and how you help marriages and people, and you and your wife, we just are so thankful for you.
Levi: Yes, time with you is a blessing to both of us, thank you, and please thank your wife for us.
Dr. Kim: I will, thank you guys.
[00:48:20] < Outro >
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