4 Steps to Break the Fight Cycle with Anne Nelson | Ep. 535
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice, on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Dr. Kim: Welcome to today's Awesome Marriage Podcast. Today my special guest is Anne Nelson. She's a Christian counselor. She specializes in marriage, family, grief recovery, post-traumatic growth and resilience training. Anne says that good science reflects God's glory, and you get to see the fruits of this in your life. I'm excited to talk more about that with her. So let's go right to today's interview.
Well, Anne, I'm so glad to have you on Awesome Marriage Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's good to see you.
Anne: It's good to see you too. I love talking to you, so I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Dr. Kim: Oh, I am too, it's a great topic. So we're going to talk about couples that get caught in these fight cycles, and they struggle to break the cycle, almost, it just seems to go on and on. So what are some of the patterns that you see couples get stuck in, and then how'd they get there to start with?
Anne: Sure, well, the main cycle that I see over and over again is this chasing and fleeing cycle. So this is where one partner wants to work everything out, and the other partner is getting overwhelmed and wants to back away. And the more the one that backs away backs away, the one that wants to work it out starts to chase. And, so, it gets this cycle where one partner is chasing the other for connection, and the other one is running away because the connection is overwhelming.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And it really comes from how we learned to adapt growing up in our family of origin. So we grew up with our family. We figured out what's our role in this family. We are part nature, part nurture, so some of it is our temperament, some of it is our personality that we adopted as a result of our environment.
And, as you know, I've spoken before, when we meet our spouse, we're drugged up on hormones that God, by His grace, gives us so that we can overcome the fear of giving our heart to another person. But that starts to dissipate in the first couple of years of marriage. And you're starting to face these like, "Well, wait a minute, I thought you really wanted to be with me."
Or, "I thought you weren't so needy."
Dr. Kim: Yes, and then that whole cycle can begin. So how do you get out of it? You talk about a four-step process, let's walk through that. How do you get out of this fight cycle? Because I see it and I know you do as a therapist also. You see so many people that have been caught in these cycles and they hate it, but they can't get out. It's like there's no way to stop this cycle, in their minds.
Anne: Right, and, well, if they think theresn't a way to stop it, it starts to become this tit-for-tat conversation. "Well, you did this." And you're so busy pointing fingers at each other, they're never dealing with the core issues. And, unfortunately, sometimes, people get into emotional shutdown. Who maybe previously wanted to connect what they've given up.
Dr. Kim: And they just think, "I can't do this, and I just back off or I shut down." Or I get some of those needs met somewhere else.
Anne: Yes, unfortunately, this is true. So, yes, I have a four, I'll call it a four-stage process. Because it's more melding, one melds into the other as you go through. So the first stage is the Repair stage, and this is where we really look at the individual.
So each person, with that family of origin, with their personality type, and their attachment style, all of that. What do they bring into the marriage naturally? How do they show up naturally? And really understanding their mechanisms. For example, one partner might have a propensity towards perfectionism. So if they don't get it right, it, almost, scares them because they've adopted this so much.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Anne: So they will, also, because they're so concerned about getting it right, will also judge their partner for not getting it right. But this right, is this nebulous right. We're not talking a biblical right. We're not talking a legal right.
We're talking this right/wrong, that they've built in their head, and it's a system that they've used to feel safe. Then when they get married if they don't understand that that's what they're doing. That they're really, actually, a little bit in the lower brain when they go into that. Like, "I've got to protect myself."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: Then they think that they're doing the right thing and that their spouse is doing the wrong thing. So understanding in this repair stage; what are the things that you brought in?
How do you show up?
How do we parse that out and understand ourselves, and understand our partner?
Because it's crucial to know who you're talking to. So for instance, you're not going to go to the DMV and preach a sermon. And you're not going to go over to a church, and start talking about the rules and regulations around licensing your car. You need to know your audience. And, so, in marriage, the same is true. But in order to know your audience, you also have to know yourself.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: So that's the first part, is repairing that part so you can really make that connection. Do you have a question?
Dr. Kim: Yes, I do. How does someone that's listening today. They're in the cycle and they hear repair and they think, "I don't have a clue how to begin to do that. I want to do it." What, what would you suggest to them?
Anne: Yes, well, I mean, there's just so much that you can do. So if we're talking about repair in the marriage. There's always professional support that you can glean. But also just wanting to make sure, for each other, that you choose to be a safe place. That you choose to be a place that you are going to be curious instead of judgmental.
And if you're just on your own and you're not working with a professional, yet. I love things like personality assessments or attachment style. The attachment style surveys, I don't trust as much because people tend to not like a certain attachment style. So since it's a self-report, they may not be completely honest with themselves on how they show up.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And, so, that's where having some professional support to come alongside you. But we all bring something into adult life that we have not addressed. And marriage is the perfect place for it to bubble to the surface.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And we often see our partner through the lens of our own personality or our own attachment style, and make judgment. Instead of saying, "Okay, oh, wait a minute, what about me? What about my side of the street? What am I doing? What am I bringing in?"
And I'm a real advocate for this personal responsibility, in the way that you approach your relationship. Because you choose a partnership because you're going to be together, you're going to be a team. You're going to work together and support one another, when one falls down the other helps them up. And, so, what does that look like to do that together? And you can't do that if one person's carrying all the other person's weight.
Dr. Kim: And, so, really, you got to get it on the table with each other. If you're listening to say, "Hey, we got to break this." It's talking to your spouse. It's saying, "I want to do things better. I'm willing to look at myself and see what we can do." And I agree, get the conversation going. And then they can decide, "Do we need professional help?"
And sometimes we do because sometimes it might be a little hard to discover; "Why I'm doing what I'm doing and where did I make that decision in life?" And a lot of times you would find, too, it's very early in life and we may not really connect that.
But it's so many things we believe is truth that aren't truth. Because we believed them when we were younger, and then we keep acting on them that way instead of stopping.
Anne: Yes.
Dr. Kim: So really it's being willing to say, "We want to do the hard work." Because it's not going to be easy, I'm sure. And the longer you've been in the cycle, the more difficult, but there's an answer.
And starting with repair, I love what you said. Because I think personal responsibility is something a lot of us struggle with in our culture, today. It's prevalent, it's not taught a lot.
And, so, I think just that whole idea of saying, "I'm going to look in the mirror, and I'm going to look at me and see what I can do" Because you can't control your spouse anyway, but you can control what you do and not do. So repair is the first stage, let's go to the second.
Anne: Yes, the second is Rebuild. So just to speak to what you were saying is that in that early stages of life, where we're taking on things. What we grow up with we're familiar with, and it feels normal. It feels healthy because it's all that we know.
And, so, oftentimes, even as you go into relationships, as you move into adulthood. The things that are not similar to your home in some way, shape, or form feel uncomfortable. So you may not be drawn to them. But they might actually be the things that are a healthier way of viewing things.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And, so, it's just that we all have a limited view, and we don't know what we don't know. My little phrase is, "We don't know what we don't know until we get the chance to know." We get to learn. We get to learn what we don't know.
So from there we go to the rebuild phase. Because once we unearth all of this and start to realize, and have these aha moments. We see that, maybe, we do have something we bring to the table. That maybe it's not appropriate for the introverted intellect to view their spouse through their own personality versus the boisterous, commanding personality.
So it's not that one of those personalities is wrong. It's how do you navigate that personality in a healthy way? And in this stage, we really look at the stories we tell ourselves. Because when we start to realize how different we are, it's easy to make stories about what that means. And if we're not intentional about believing the true story, the stories we make and, as you know, we will ruminate and ruminate when we have a problem.
And if we don't get the true story, we will make a story up in our head and then we'll believe it. And that's what most people do in their marriages. And, so, they start believing a story about their spouse.
So like I was referring to earlier, a spouse who maybe is a little bit more easily overwhelmed by emotional conversations is perceived as not loving you. Not caring about you because they have to leave sooner. And the one that's maybe more aggressive in making sure we work out the conflict is seen as overbearing, or demanding, or critical.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: But that may or may not be the intention. But the stories we make up in our head may make that intention in our mind. And, so, learning to rebuild the true story of what's really happening in the relationship. Now that we identify who we are and how we show up.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and just being willing to admit that there's some things there that just aren't good or aren't healthy. I think what you said, so many people I've dealt with. That they grow up in a home that they really think things are normal. And what I tell couples, "Bring the good things, but remember there's things you want to leave behind." And sometimes we're not aware of that.
I've had so many people, over the years, that have just said, "I didn't know my home life was that dysfunctional until I met his parents. Or because my best friend and I went home for Thanksgiving weekend from school, and I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, this is very different.'"
Anne: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: So what you said is right. That people, don't judge yourself because you grew up in a home and you didn't realize things were crazy or just a little off. But now is the time to say, "I want to break." And you're really breaking your cycle and then, in turn, that helps break your marriage cycle.
Anne: Right, absolutely, and it's a spectrum. Because some things are really crazy behaviors and some things are just bent in a certain direction. And that certain direction may not be wrong, but you've got to think about who you're in relationship with.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: So, for example, say you grew up in a family where debating politics, and sports, and things was just fun, it was entertainment. "Everybody would say, "No, it's this way." But then you marry somebody who didn't grow up in that type of environment. Now you're trying to debate with them, thinking it's going to be fun and they're hurt and they're offended.
It's not that you can't debate with somebody who wants to debate with you. That might be fun but it's not fun for your spouse. And it's not wrong that it's not fun for your spouse. So dial it back, and approach the relationship for who you're married to.
Dr. Kim: Because that spouse is going to withdraw, I would guess. It's just you're not being...
Anne: Absolutely.
Dr. Kim: That's so good. So we've got repair, we've got rebuild, where do to go next?
Anne: Restore — so in the Restore stage, we really look at the reality that 69% of conflict, according to research, is never resolved in marriage. So what do we do with that? And we've got to restore that sense of appreciation and admiration for one another.
That even when we agree to disagree, we can be happy about it. That we can joyfully come up with a compromise. That we can really meld the way that we show up together.
We want to be unified, not uniform, because God brought the two of you together for a plan and a purpose for your family. That He's got elements of His image in each of you that your kids need.
And, so, we don't want to let the conflict get out of control. And we want to make sure that while we're speaking the truth, we're not forgetting to speak in love. And we want to make sure that we're appreciating, and affirming, and admiring one another because there are such beautiful, unique gifts.
So this is where we're really restoring the positive now. So we're really building on what we've already started with. And, as I said, all these stages move into one another. And sometimes you'll be in the restore stage and, all of a sudden, you realize something down here was holding you back. And you've got to go back and address this and pull it back up.
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Anne: But each time you get that much closer in your relationship and that much more of a real, unified team.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it's really just seeing yourself, the last word you said, they're a team. We are a team in this thing. It's not trying to change me, or change her, or him. It's trying to, "How, as a team, do we make this marriage work?"
And I heard you say things like I see empathy there. Just really trying to put yourself in their shoes. And I learned that, Nancy grew up, and we've talked about it a lot, in a real dysfunctional family.
And, so, she knew it wasn't right, she knew it wasn't what it should be. But she didn't know how to change that, and she didn't know all the things there. It was like, "Okay, your family was messed up, mine was great. Let's do things my family's way." Well, that didn't work, at all.
Anne: Right.
Dr. Kim: So I had to understand her and come alongside her, and I love her parents. It wasn't like I wanted them to just be completely gone. We just need to know how to set boundaries with them and how to realize what the messages she got growing up, and how that was affecting her today and it, in turn, it was affecting us. So I think understanding those differences is a big part then. And not putting that down, just saying, "That's the reality we live in."
Anne: Right, and, well, that brings us to the Receive Stage. Because there this place to be able to receive from one another, whatever may have been missing growing up. So, oftentimes, we're drawn to somebody who is going to bring out the parts of us that need to grow the most.
And, so, when we learn as a team to be there and receive from one another. To support one another, to give love to one another. To hold your hand and just be present, and that empathy that you mentioned. And I just want to point out, you said put yourself in their shoes, and that's such an important piece. Because, oftentimes, people say, "Well, what would I feel if I was going through that?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: But back to the very beginning, we've got different personalities, different attachment styles. It doesn't matter what you feel in that situation.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Anne: What matters is what do they feel in their shoes. And that level of empathy where you're really able to give and receive compassion, and empathy, and support, and love, that you can hold space for one another without having to have your say. Without having to make it exactly even. That when one falls down the other helps them up, and it's not a competition. But it's just being present for one another.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and that makes such a difference in a marriage when we get to that point, doesn't it? Where we really are working together with each other and not trying to change each other. Which, probably, every couple does that a little bit. And I think the sooner we realize that, the sooner we can start getting on with really what our marriage is.
Because my experience is I've never worked with a couple that were exactly alike, and God makes us different for a reason. If Nancy and I were exactly alike, it would be boring. We've learned.
We have learned from each other, and grown for each other, and we figure out how to do things, and we made a ton of mistakes. But I think we just, the things you're saying, you could keep persevering and you try to work on it together because there's always an answer.
Anne: Yes, I think about the Scripture that says that, "God made them in His image. He made them male and female." And while there's the two components. The two different genders, so to speak, there's also a world of people. No one person has the perfect image of God in the way that they reflect His image.
Now, the Holy Spirit is perfect inside them, but as far as their way of showing up. So we all bring unique aspects that reflect God because we're made in His image to the table. So why would you want to have a clone of yourself? You're just limiting the reflection of God in your family.
It's exciting to be able to have those different components in the relationship, and to be able to create that safety. Because once we get to that last, that received stage, we also talk about it as the bliss stage. When you, finally, get to that place where you're securing your skin and it's okay that things weren't okay.
It's okay that your spouse maybe is really sensitive in this one area, and they need some extra kid-gloves from you in that time, and that's fine. That you can do that without feeling like, "I'm having to give more than they." Or any injustice in there. And, so, that makes such a difference.
Dr. Kim: Yes, we've got to be for each other, instead of if we get stuck into criticizing they need to change. That's not going to get us anymore. And, so, when I learned to try to empathize with Nancy, try to walk in her shoes and it made such a difference.
Because I wasn't judging her like that I did early in marriage. And I was able to say, "Well, this is who she is. So if I talk to her about this, this way she's going to feel loved and cared for. and we can still get the same end result that I want, instead of just being critical. We're both type A, so she didn't just sit there and go, "Huh." It was like she fights back, so that wasn't working.
One thing I wanted to go back, I just thought of that you said earlier. And that was what you said — 69% of conflict is never resolved, something like that
Anne: Yes, according to research, yes, 69% of conflict in marriage is never actually resolved.
Dr. Kim: But it's doesn't go away, does it?
Anne: No, it doesn't go away. And that's where covering everything with that empathy, compassion, that mercy, that grace to be able to figure out, "How do we make this work, anyway?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: One of the things that I see a lot in couples, is when one partner is, maybe, coming from a very overtly bad background and the other partner doesn't have a bad background, or at least they don't think so.
And they're like, "My family was great. My family was perfect." And then we end up with this dynamic where we start to parse things out. Especially in certain generations there are some people who actually didn't have the emotional support they needed.
So they can do the facts very well, of life, without getting their feathers ruffled. But as far as doing the empathy, the compassion, the being there for their kids in a way that helps them to feel supported, that feels foreign.
And, so, having to parse out, just because something looks overtly worse it doesn't mean it is, it's just a different thing. And just because something looks like it's better it doesn't mean it is, it's just different and we get to figure that out together.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good. And that's what the fun thing is, is when you finally get on that and say, "We're going to figure this out together." And, so, those aha moments you both share in, and rejoice in, and like, "We made a step." There's a lot of things that have grown our marriage. But that is one of the things when we learn to begin to do that, and we still don't do it perfect all the time for sure.
Anne: Sure.
Dr. Kim: But it made a huge difference for us to realize, "Okay, we can work through these things together. We can be on the same team here, and we can stop these cycles, and move forward, and not have that junk around all the time."
Because the things that we were leaving unresolved didn't go away. They came back in different ways all the time. And then it would spin us back into that same fight cycle every time. And once we learned to resolve things, at least, it limited those things from coming back up again.
Anne: Right, well, sometimes it's even as much as just choosing to let go of something. For instance, that I know one of the areas the couples argue over a lot of parenting styles.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: So mom, maybe, stereotypically, is home with the kids more than dad is. And, so, she's got all these rules for the house. But then when she goes out for girls' night, or on a trip to see friends, or whatever, and the husband is home with the kids.
All of a sudden she is critical because he's not doing everything the way she would want it done. And I was like, "Okay, well, really does that matter? So they're going to eat Oreos every night. A whole bag of Oreos is not going to kill them for a week." No, it's not.
Dr. Kim: No.
Anne: It's okay. Whether you would do it yourself or not, and then you can turn that into a fun joking like, "There we go with Oreos again."
Dr. Kim: Exactly, and knowing that, that allows your kids to see a different side and to connect with their dad. Because most couples, probably, the mom does spend more time even when they both work. It seems to work out that way.
I have a friend and his wife was out of town for a night, and he took his two boys to Target or Walmart. Where they had the Nerf guns, and he said, "Choose well, because I'm choosing this one." And they all bought their Nerf guns and they had Nerf gun fights while mom was gone.
Anne: Yes, perfect.
Dr. Kim: And it was great, and they loved it. And, so, to be able, as a wife, to see there is value in that. And those boys having that time with their dad, to just do things like that. Like you said, to rejoice in that and say, "I'm so thankful, I have a husband that loves to play with my kids, our kids, and to do things that way."
Anne: Yes, absolutely. And that can be part of dealing with some of that 69% conflict. And, so, you don't have to agree, just meet each other where you are.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and some things you can let go of because they're not life-changing, things like that.
Anne: Mm-hmm.
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[00:25:46] < Music >
Dr. Kim: So what are some questions that spouse can use to challenge their assumptions, as they try to understand their spouse better? Because we all have that tendency to make those assumptions.
Anne: Yes, well, I can give you questions and, first things first, it's how you ask the question. Because I can say, "Why do you do it that way?"
Or I can say, "Why do you do it that way?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: Totally different heart behind it. One is actually curious and the other is judgmental, so more than which questions you ask. It's how are you asking?
Are you asking with a genuinely curious spirit?
And if you find that you're not being, genuinely, curious. Because sometimes people tell themselves the story, "Well, I know my spouse. We've tried this before and it's never worked, and whenever I say that they ignore me."
And if you shift from that, so maybe you did try to tell your spouse — fill in the blank, whatever it might be, and they didn't honor your request. You can even come back with a curious question like, "Okay, help me understand. So I asked you this, I thought you said yes. Can you help me understand why it didn't happen?"
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Anne: That's much different than nagging, or criticizing, or overwhelming. And there's just so many things that you can do. You can always slow down when your spouse is talking to you about something, and just ask them what they're feeling about it. Because a lot of people don't know what their emotions are.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Anne: Well, you ask them what they're feeling and they'll say, "Well, I feel like you're not being nice enough." That's not an emotion; what are you feeling? What's the emotion word for that? And, then, again, "I'm angry." Well, anger is a secondary emotion. What's the emotion under the anger? And be okay with asking those questions. So, "How are you feeling about that?"
"What would you have liked to do differently?"
"What would your best outcome be for the situation?"
Questions that are open ended, that are curious, that are open. That are okay with not, necessarily, agreeing right off the bat. There might need to be some back and forth to get to that place. To make sure that you're not making up a meeting that's not true.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good because that's something we all need to do, very much so. What about a couple or people that say they tried counseling and it didn't work? And as counselors we hate to hear that.
Anne: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Why does that happen?
Anne: Yes, well, many reasons, you know this. So sometimes it's that they start too late. They wait until things are really out of control, and then they expect that... “Well, my insurance with a counselor covers six sessions, so in six sessions we're going to be fine."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: But it's been 20 years of havoc or even less than that. Because most couples, I can't remember the stat on this, they wait. I want to say somewhere between four and six years past the time when the problem starts happening, before they actually seek counseling.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Anne: So by the time they actually come to the table, they're usually at that place where they're tit-for-tat, and pointing fingers, and blaming and shaming, and all of those things. And they haven't really ever gotten to even that first stage we talked about, before, with the repair stage.
And, so, one of the things is that they wait too long. And another thing is we, also, know that not every counselor is created equal. Everybody has their strengths and their weaknesses. And as much as I love the field, there are some people who are in counseling for the purposes of working out their own feelings, and they put that on their clients and that's not helpful.
So you really want to choose somebody who is very grounded in what they're working with you on. And when it comes to couples' therapy, you don't want a referee. A lot of couples think that they do want a referee.
They want to go in there and they want you to take sides. And they want to be able to put the blame somewhere, who needs to change, instead of really creating that mutual understanding. And that early part that you and I talked about that repair part gets jumped over. And the story from our meaning-making brain has parts being jumped over. We're going straight to, how do we deal with the conflict?
Well, if you say, "I feel, I need." That will solve everything. Well, it doesn't because we are whole people. We have feelings and emotions. So you want to really work with somebody who understands that couple's therapy is not just a referee situation.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's great. When the couple comes in for counseling and they want me to say who's right and who's wrong. That's not what I do, and that's not healthy for them because, then, one person walks out as a winner, one as a loser. And, in my opinion, the marriage just lost when they walk out like that.
Anne: Right. Well, and another one, too, sometimes when it's just starting to get close to breaking through, it's really hard.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And in one or both partners say, "This is too much, I can't take it." And they quit. And it's usually right at that point where you're getting ready to go over the horizon, and start to go downhill the other side of this slope and go, "Oh, this is easy." But it's not, it's work to get there. And, so, sometimes people get a little scared by the process and stop too soon.
Dr. Kim: Yes, so persevere, I mean, if you're working with a counselor. Let me ask you this, say somebody is listening in and say, "Okay, God, this sounds good." And how do they find a good counselor?
Anne: Well, that's a good question. So there's multiple resources out there to find people. I actually find that one of the most important things is to actually have a conversation with them, before you engage them. And to look for their approach, ask them for their approach.
And I encourage people to ask a question that maybe even saying, you heard me on here and you said, "Oh, I heard somebody saying that a counselor, often, there can be counselors that are working out their own stuff while they're still counseling other people, and they, they do it in session. Have you ever heard that?" And if they're offended, you know, right away, that's not the counselor for you.
Dr. Kim: It's not where you want to go. And it's so good because sometimes people are afraid to ask those questions. I would much rather someone call me and say, even if they made appointment before they come in, and say, "I just have a few questions."
Absolutely, I want to answer those. Because I want there not to be a surprise and I want them to be comfortable that I'm the person that they feel like God has led them to, to help them at that point.
Anne: Right, and that's, of course, the big piece right there is praying about the person, and just having a good sense because not every personality hits it off. And just because there's somebody who may be able to help lots of couples, they may not be the right person for you, and that's okay.
Because you are important enough, as a couple and as an individual, to get the support you need for your family. And sometimes people feel obligated to, "Well, I'm being critical." And the time to be critical is before you start the counseling.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And then once you buy in, buy in. And really make sure you found somebody that you feel like you can trust.
Dr. Kim: Yes, you don't want to spend two or three sessions just doing that process. Where you could do it even before you come in and feel comfortable coming in with that. I'm going to go back to one other thing that we talked about and that is waiting too long, because both you and I have seen that. I mean, if a couple comes in and tells me, and I always ask them, "When did this start?"
If they say, "A month ago."
I want to jump up and down and high-five them. But most of them say three years, four years. I've had couples say, "Probably 10 years we've been doing it this way."
And, so, for us to encourage those couples, man, don't wait. Do it today. Take that step. I don't think they'll ever regret taking that step.
Anne: Right. No, I don't think so either. And my kids aren't married, yet, but my intention is to give them, shhh don't tell them, the wedding gift is a good, solid counselor. That they can then loop back around to do some pre-marriage counseling. And loop back around to a year or two into the marriage and say, "Hey, how are we doing?" And just get that feedback because I'm a strong advocate of just making sure you're well.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Anne: Psychology didn't start off with this idea of only treating the mentally ill. Back at the turn of the 20th century, the plan was to augment the well-being for people and to cultivate genius. But all that's been thrown out with the bath water after the world wars, and we want to make sure we're doing well. We don't want to just hit baseline, we want to move north of baseline and really have strong, healthy, personal relationship with ourselves and with our spouse.
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely.
Anne: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: One of the other things I think we ought to talk about, just to take a minute, is men and feelings, we talked about feelings. And my experience is, and it's not universal, because I've had guys that were the feeling person in the relationship and the wife wasn't.
But, probably, in general, most of the time it is the wife. What would you say to a guy that said, "Oh, I don't talk about my feelings." And whatever reason it is, maybe we were so many guys. I hope we don't have as much now. But there was certainly in my generation, and probably a little bit after that, before that, "You don't show your feelings."
"A guy never cries." Things like that. So we came up, heard those messages.
But, yet, what I've learned from Nancy in relationship, I've got to talk about my feelings. It used to bug me that she wanted me to talk about my feelings and she wouldn't let me. Like you were going a while ago, she wouldn't let me off the hook with it.
It wasn't like, "Well, I'm angry."
"Well, why are you angry? What's behind that?"
"Well, I'm angry."
And, so, what would you say to guys that are just scared, to death, to take that step toward letting those feelings come out?
Anne: Oh, such a great question. I so agree with you. A lot of children of Depression-era parents were just taught to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Don't whine and complain, just get it done. And, so, this idea of nurturing the sensitive side, the emotional intelligence just wasn't there.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And, then, there is some difference between men and women, stereotypically. But you're right it's the other way around sometimes. I have definitely worked with couples where it was the woman who is less emotionally available. And what is true is that if we do not deal with our emotions, they seep out everywhere else.
It's not that you don't have them. It's that sudden fit of rage was actually because there was a whole slew of emotions underneath it. That you weren't dealing with, and your brain just couldn't take it anymore and you exploded. Or that depression, that came out of nowhere, you can't figure out why. You look at your life and you're like, "I have a beautiful wife, I have great kids, I have a great job. Why am I depressed?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: Well, that came because you weren't dealing with what you were feeling. You weren't tabling whatever topics that had happened. I had one client who grew up with depression-era parents. Good, solid, hardworking, always there for them, emotionally just not available, but always there for them. And he experienced, as a young boy, a tornado and his mom didn't know what to do.
And, so, he was like six and his brother was like eight, something like that. His brother had learned at school what to do for a tornado. So his eight-year-old brother takes over, and they go in the basement and they're fine. But nobody ever talked about that experience or what was felt by that.
Later in life, something happened in his marriage that triggered a PTSD response. Not just because of what happened later in the marriage, but because he had this PTSD from childhood that he had never learned to process.
And, so, it was coming out with him, waking up in the middle of the night. Yelling at his wife in the middle of the night. Having fits of rage, and he couldn't figure out why he couldn't control it. She was trying to be patient. So it comes out, it seeps out elsewhere if you don't deal with what you're feeling.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and that's such a great example because I think a lot of times we just think, as guys, "Well, that didn't really affect me.” Just because my football coach in sixth grade. I mean, I was just in sixth grade and just so he was yelling at me and telling me I'm not any good and, “You better work harder. Or why can't you be like him?" Those things, for most of us, they stick.
Anne: They do.
Dr. Kim: And I think, as guys, we want to go, "Oh, I'm tough, that coach didn't bother me." But, yes, it does.
Anne: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And, for me, the safest place I found, finally, to talk about that, besides God, is with my wife.
Anne: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And to see that she didn't go, "Well, you wimp you really were going to cry." No, she was so excited that I shared with her on that level, and she was understanding, and she prayed for me, those kind of things.
And as guys we just take that risk. Just take that risk. I don't think you'll ever regret taking that risk. And if it's other way, if it's the wife and that you're the one who's not [Inaudible 00:39:51] take the risk.
Anne: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Because God, it seems like one is one way and one the other. It's not like they're both the same, whether it's male or female.
Anne: Typically.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it's just, typically, they're both in each marriage like that.
Anne: Yes.
Dr. Kim: We talked a little bit about that. But just to encourage people. Counseling is not easy, especially, if you let things go or if it's a real difficult subject. And people's expectations of counseling, what would you say to that? I mean, it's going to be hard.
Anne: Yes, it is. It's going to be work, but it's work that's well worth it.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: Majority of the clients that I work with have been married 20 years and up, by the time they come to me. But, yet, at the same time I've seen such beautiful breakthroughs. I can think of a couple that I worked with that came to me when they were married 46 years.
Dr. Kim: Oh, my gosh.
Anne: And they both came from farming communities and they were hardworking, and she was a little bit more anxiously attached, and a little bit more emotionally in-tune. He was highly avoidant. Didn't talk about his emotions growing up at all. And, as a result, when they came to me, they were, literally, living in separate bedrooms. And she didn't want to talk to him anymore because she had been so hurt, she had emotionally shut down. This is 46 years in or 47 years in.
And he convinced her to come and let's work together. And exactly what you were just talking about your wife being that safe place. When he had those aha moments, he had no clue that he even felt anything about some of the things that had happened to him growing up.
But in our sessions that was able to come out. That he actually felt these ways and things that came out he, actually, cried about. And his wife who had been stern and critical, by this point, because she was so hurt and refused to be hurt again, just melted to see him. Like, "Oh, my goodness, I had no idea."
And, so, by the time we're done working together, they were like snuggled up on the couch next to each other. All sweet and adorable, and talking about how they're going to leave a legacy for their kids and their grandkids, to see the difference and then change in their marriage as well. So, yes, it's well worth the work.
And I think it's just important to remember life can be hard, you get to choose your hard. Would you rather work hard at counseling and create a great marriage? Or would you rather have a hard marriage that creates a hard family life, that creates a legacy of hard for your grandkids? So you get to choose.
It's just like you get to choose if you're going to go to work. Work is not easy. Work can be hard. But guess what, I choose work that can be hard over the hard work of not having a place to live. So we all get to choose. And, so, I just encourage you, it's worth the choice, because I've seen it over and over again.
Dr. Kim: I'm so glad you gave an example of a 46-year-old marriage like that. Because it's never too late, is it? And I've had a couple of people that were kind of similar in that. And they had an impact on their adult kids and their grandkids after they made that decision.
Because they saw a difference there, and it's never too late to model that because it really is. And the couples that are married, listening today, get your marriage healthy for you and your spouse, but your kids are going to reap the benefits of that. You're going to be modeling marriage for them because you want them to have healthy marriages someday. So sometimes it's important to do it for yourself and your spouse. But your kids are going to benefit from that greatly.
Anne: Yes, well, and what I see a lot, too, with some couples, especially, as their kids are getting older is that's when it really hits them. "I've got to do something about this." Because the kids are out of control. The kids are pitting mom against dad, and they're not maybe strong in their faith, or they're not disciplined, whatever the case may be. And they know, deep inside, a couple knows, "This isn't the child's fault. This is because we're setting an example."
Dr. Kim: Sure.
Anne: I think about James, where it talks about repentance and that, "Confess your sins and you will be healed." And I see over and over again, when parents get a hold of what went wrong.
And they, together, take responsibility with their teen children, their adult children of, "Hey, we've done this wrong, but guess what we've learned?" Wow, it's such a healing catalyst for the rest of the family.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Anne: It makes a huge difference.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and hopefully that gives people some encouragement to, maybe, begin to take that step. So last question, almost, last question. What final advice would you give to somebody who is listening to this and they feel stuck. They feel like they've stuck with something, we've talked about, for a long time. Where can they start?
Anne: Yes, well, I hear people all the time say, "I've asked my spouse to go do counseling and they refused to."
Or, "I tried talking to them about that and they just didn't listen."
And I take it back to that first stage, that repair stage, do what you can for you. Because here's the reality, is that if you change and become more healthy, you're on this path together. And if you start changing to be more healthy, your spouse is very likely going to lean towards you.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Anne: And what I find, in my practice, is I can often start with one spouse working on their part, in their attempt to understand their partner. We try to do that even though the partner's not there. And when they start making changes, often, their spouse wants to come and join us now. Because they're saying, "Hey, I like what I'm seeing here."
And instead of being harder, now that she's or he's doing this counseling, is actually becoming easier. So maybe she's onto something, maybe he's onto something. So doing your own, that early stage, to figure out what is your personality?
What's your attachment style?
What's your propensity?
Where was your family, maybe, not so healthy? But you didn't realize it until later in life or maybe you still don't see it. Maybe you need to talk to some of your friends and say, "Hey, I've shared some things about my family, what do you notice? What do you notice about me?"
And allow yourself to get what I call a reality check. But, obviously, make sure that that's a safe person. Because you want to make sure you have an emotionally healthy person that you're asking that question to.
Dr. Kim: And someone you trust, absolutely.
Anne: Right.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's great. And I love that you said, "Come in by yourself if your spouse won't come." Because I've seen the same thing that you're saying, as you get healthier that is attractive. And sometimes I've had the other spouse that fights against that a little bit, trying to make you unhealthy again. But as long as you persevere, and the healthier you get, at some point, they're going to say, "Hmm, there is something to this." And then when the other spouse joins it's always great.
Anne: Yes, well, and I think that part where you're saying that the other spouse pokes at them, that's that fear.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Anne: I jokingly say God drugs us to get into a relationship in the first place. But I really do believe that that's part of God's beautiful design is that He gave us this download of hormones, when we first meet so that we'd be brave enough to risk our hearts. And then you get into the relationship and you could have, especially, if it's been five, 10, 20, 40 years, you have all that hurt back there.
So even when the spouse, the one spouse starts making positive changes. The other spouse wants to make sure you're for real. "Let me poke at them a little bit, see what they do with my poking. See if they're going to stay, doing what they said they're going to do or not."
And once that they see that you're serious about it, nine times out of 10 or more, the spouse starts to appreciate it. Whether they come in for the counseling themselves or not. I actually had one woman who came to me by herself, her husband was unwilling to come. And she and I worked together for a few months, and then I run virtual events all the time.
And, so, I had an event and she and her husband came and attended the event. And her husband was in the Chat, I'd never met the man before, never spoken with him. Typing up, "You saved our marriage. Thank you so much for what you did with my wife."
Dr. Kim: Wow.
Anne: Yes, and it wasn't all her. It wasn't that she was off her rock and he wasn't, but the positive change created that momentum for the family.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so cool. Yes, as therapists and working with people save their marriage, that's what we want. We want people to say, "Hey, I don't have to live my life this way. God's got something better for me." And it's worth the effort. It's worth the work to do that.
Anne: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Kim: So this is such a good conversation. If people want to find you, where's the best places for them to find you?
Anne: Probably my website, which is fullythriving.com. So that's f-u-l-l-y-t-h-r-i-v-i-n-g.com. The same name for social media, you can find me there as well. I'm always, like I said, always hosting different types of virtual events for marriage.
And, so, I don't have one coming up. I just have one on Sunday called Marriage Mastery Live, which we go deeper into those four stages that you and I discussed earlier. So get on my email list, follow me on social media, and keep your eye out for that because I'll be hosting another one here in a month or so.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and I love that, that's great. And I love virtual because, couples listening, you can do this at home people. You can sit in your living room, in your pajamas and do it, and enjoy that. So, again, there's a lot of options there. And this great, you will learn much from her by attending one of these.
Anne, thank you again for spending time with us, I love what you do. It's been great to connect and we'll see you again soon, I'm sure.
Anne: Yes, my pleasure, so much fun. Thank you.
Dr. Kim: Thank you.
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