Are You Getting Bitter, Or Getting Better? | Ep. 526
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling.
Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
We know that life will let us down at some point, and the people we love the most will inevitably let us down at some point, too. We're all only human and life can't really go exactly the way we plan. But we do have a choice in how we respond when hard and hurtful things happen. We can either get bitter or we get better.
And, today, we're going to talk about healing from hurt and growing from them. So, Dr. Kim, is there an example of anyone who you have known, who either grew bitter or grew better?
Dr. Kim: Yes. I mean, I can think of a couple of people over my life, and certainly some people in counseling or family members of people in counseling that I've heard about. But it seems like when someone gets a negative thing in their mind and they don't deal with it. They don't say, "Hey, I got to deal with this, I need to get better."
They pass everything through that grid of bitterness and the bitterness continues to grow. And a person I know well that has done that and continue to do that. And it's like he's done this for, probably, 10 or 12 years in a relationship. And the relationship gets more distant, and distant, and distant, and the person gets more bitter toward the other person.
When the other person really hadn't done much, maybe, not in their perspective. Instead of coming to someone when you're upset with them and saying, "Hey, this is what I'm upset about, can we talk about it?" You just make an assumption and you're bitter. And then you continue to take every piece of information you get and it just stacks up. And then the bitterness grows and grows, and that is so unhealthy for someone.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I mean, bitterness can lead to death eventually. Seriously, people just, literally, get sick from their bitterness.
Lindsay: Oh, man, that's a bleak picture, I've seen it happen, too, and it's isolating and the person ends up alone. Because everyone who's made them mad they can't handle being around or interacting with, and it's devastating to see it.
But, for me, the inspiration for this topic was my granddad. So he's a person who got better, so it's a little more fun to talk about that.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: But he went to heaven just about 18 months ago at the age of 91 and he was a pastor. He was a Christian counselor and every year he would say, "I'm still asking God for five more years because I just love my life." He didn't want to go. Even though he was excited to go be in heaven, eventually he just was never ready.
But that's not because his life was easy. He had a really hard time with my grandma, and then my granddad's two sons, my uncles, all suffered from terrible illnesses. So there was Alzheimer's and ALS, and they just got sicker and sicker.
But he did say that in spite of that, all that loss, he said, "We have a choice to either get bitter or better." And, so, he was full of joy. He was always encouraging. He always looked for how to find the good in people and to bring life, and liveliness, and joy into situations, and never heard him complain, ever.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And that is something that's a rare quality. So we've tried to learn and follow in that example.
Dr. Kim: It's so much how we look at things and our perspective. And it sounds like his perspective was always looking for the good, even in the bad.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And I love that, and I think it's something that I want. I think most of us want to be able to do that because sometimes we feel justified in our anger and all that stuff. But in the big picture it never, really, does us any good at all.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: It just doesn't, and a lot of times it's worse for the one suffering though, the person ain't suffering at all.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Because they're not dealing with it in the same way or they're not even aware of it.
Lindsay: Yes. Well, I'm interested to unpack this topic a little bit. Because hearing him say that example of the choice to get bitter or better, he actually said that in my uncle's funeral, speaking at his son's funeral. And it was like, "Oh, if you could say that at that point? That's a serious challenge to all of us." Because would I be able to say that, that's what I've chosen?
Does my life have the fruit to show that? And, so, it puts it in perspective.
It's not what's done to you, it's how you respond that will, really, determine where you're going. So that's what I'm interested in unpacking today, for each of us. So we can look at ourself and assess how we can be on that growing track.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: I think we've, probably, all seen people who got bitter. We've all seen it. Somebody was jaded, or cynical, or angry and they would just repeat the same mistakes over and over, and things would just be hard. And relationships continue to crumble and they're alone, and they're saying mean things at waitresses, and the checkout counter at Lowe's. It's coming out everywhere and they never seem to learn from it.
So how do we avoid becoming that person? How can we tell if you're growing or if you're stuck?
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think self-awareness is a huge part of it and we do that by just being honest with ourselves, and prayer. The prayer of, "Search my heart, and know me; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there's any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting." Is a scary prayer to pray. But it's one of those prayers that you open the door for God to come in and show you areas that you could be better in or, maybe, you are getting better in or something that you- We're so easy to rationalize things.
"Well, yes, I'm upset but do you know what they did to me?"
One of my stories, our pastor's told about a guy that was in their church, I believe, that had molested, or maybe it was a school teacher, his sister for a number of years until they found out and how that affected them.
And then how, at one point, his family wrote him a letter giving him forgiveness and the freedom that that gave them, when they were able to let go of that. And, so, to me, that's one of the extreme things that you think of when someone abuses a child like that. If someone abuses your child, how in the world do you not get consumed with that and how do you forgive? Because, I think, that's what God tells us He wants us to do, and then I think He'll also help us do that.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, for some people, I think it's a process. I think, it was with them. We know we need to forgive but we're just not quite there yet.
So, I think, self-awareness, asking God, being honest with yourself.
Are you angry?
Why are you angry?
If Nancy says, "You seem angry?"
My answer doesn't need to be, "No, I'm not."
My answer needs to be "What are you seeing?"
Or, "Okay, am I angry?"
If it's something that I am but I'm not really aware of it or conscious of it. Because I'm not yelling and screaming, and throwing things, but there's an anger there.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, sometimes we continue in patterns. We do the same things over, and they're not working, but we continue to do them.
Are you doing that? And is that causing you frustration and anger? I think asking somebody else that knows you well enough and loves you enough to be honest with you, and that could be—
That's where I think for guys having an accountability partner, that's willing to do that and get in your face and say, "Hey, I see some things in you that, I think, you're angry or you're being bitter. Every time you talk about so and so your whole countenance changes." And someone that will do that.
And then asking God to reveal those things. I think in our relationships and in our lives we move forward or backwards. And I think you've got to be aware, "Am I moving forward? If I'm moving backwards, I'm probably getting into bitterness and if I'm moving forward, then, I'm getting better and getting healing." And, so, I think, a lot of it is just being honest with yourself and letting God come in and do His work within you.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. And it's not always easy to know. It takes a little time to sort through that. Like that prayer you're saying it might take a few layers to get down to what's underneath it. I know sometimes when I've had a hard time knowing if I'm ready to forgive, for much smaller things than the example you gave. But I would kind of have, "I'm not ready to forgive."
But my chest feels really tight. For me, it feels like tightness in my chest. It feels like a lump in my stomach. It feels like just unsettled. Like I have this tense energy, to me, that I feel like I'm kind of humming even when I'm sitting still.
It's just this discomfort that I can tell, if I take it to the Lord and sit with it long enough. I mean, for a few minutes, He kind of brings it to the surface to say, "Yes, that is that unforgiveness. You're feeling uncomfortable because you're not letting it go." But if I didn't really think about it, it would be easier to just distract myself, find a distraction, try to move on.
Dr. Kim: No, I agree. And, I think, another way that you talked about, prayer. I think journaling helps a lot because it helps me clarify things. I believe when you journal, pencil and paper is the best way to do it.
I mean, you can journal online and that's great for some things. But if you're really trying to process, I just think the way we're wired, the pen and paper, pencil and paper, helps a lot. And it gives me clarity to do that.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And just trusting God. That prayer that I gave, I don't think it's a one-time prayer. I think it's almost a daily prayer and because, I think, you're being aware there that there could be some things by saying it daily, and you're giving God permission to come into your life and help you there, that reveal things to you. And it's a scary prayer because He's going to do it. And, I think, you have to be ready, but in the big picture, knowing He's not going to do anything that's not good for you, and for the relationship, and for your marriage or whatever it is that you're struggling with.
Lindsay: Yes, that's true. I agree, it's a scary prayer. I think it's very true because He does answer. I mean, that's why it's scary because He is faithful. He comes through, and He'll show you, He'll point out exactly what's in there that's not okay.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: But then it's like, "Well, okay, I did ask for that." So I'll receive it."
Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly, and you can't take it back.
Lindsay: So, I mean, I think, that's one of the important pieces is that growth its not black and white, it's like a process that you engage in.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and I think, sometimes we think, "Oh, we're so forgiven." Which is right. No, I think it's a process. I think, for me, in this couple of situations it was, "God help me to forgive. Help me to get to the point where I'm willing to forgive."
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And I think God understands that. I think He just wants your heart, and if your heart is to forgive, you're heading that direction, that's what He wants. It's when we say, "No, they do not deserve forgiveness. I'm never going to forgive them." That's where our heart gets hardened, and that's where we can block God out and not let Him work in our lives.
Lindsay: Yes, totally. Well, and then even after making the decision, it's like keeping making the decision. Like, "Hey, I've forgiven and Lord help me to remember that I made that decision and I want to stay there."
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: Yes. So do you think it's just as simple as just deciding to grow? I mean we've given some steps, but is it like, we're saying it's not black and white. So if you want to decide to be better and not bitter, how do we do that?
Dr. Kim: Well, I think, Twelve Step teaches some things, other things. I think, you've got to admit you have a problem.
Lindsay: Hmm.
Dr. Kim: I think that's the first thing, is acknowledging. Because if you don't ever admit that there's a problem or there's something here I need to deal with, then you're not going to deal with it.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: You're just going to continue to ignore it, and how do you know that? Well, if everyone around you is telling you, you have a problem, including your spouse, you probably have a problem.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And, so, I think, you do listen to the people that you respect in your life. If your marriage is a good marriage and you communicate well, and your spouse is saying, "I think you got a problem with this anger towards so and so. I see it every time we're around them, you just change completely."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: That you value that in your spouse to listen to that. And, so, that's one thing. Steps, I think, how deep is it? Is it something that you have tried to just forgive and let go of, and it's just not going? And, so, counseling can be certainly a good option there. Of having someone help you walk through that, maybe, get a little deeper to where the roots of it.
Maybe is this person that's presenting a problem? Maybe the roots go back to your childhood. And, so, having someone that help you do that, so you really don't just keep replacing. "Okay, I'll forgive this person then I'll replace this with somebody else, because I haven't dealt back with the root cause of it."
I think repentance of just saying, "This is not what God's best is for me. This is not what He has for me. That this type of anger is not—" I know we talk about righteous anger sometimes. I'm not sure that any of us have righteous anger other than God.
Lindsay: Hmmm.
Dr. Kim: I think we try to say things are, but God says a lot about, "Be angry and do not sin." So we know if we're going to get angry, I think, we have a tendency to get angry and sin. We have a tendency to get mad at someone, or to hurt someone, or say something, or treat someone bad when we're angry, and that doesn't honor God.
So, I think, just be aware of those kind of things. Prayer. And, I think, some accountability. Once you get to that point, I need someone that's going to love me enough to get in my face, and say, "How are you doing this week? You were going to pray about it every day and you were going to journal about it, or you were going to reach out to this person with a nice text. Have you done that?" Some accountability, really, helps.
Yes, you've got to decide, but then you've, really, and it's not just deciding. It's really getting deep within yourself and admitting there is a problem here and there is something that needs to change.
Lindsay: Mm, that's really good. I love that you started with that, that step of humility of admitting there's a problem. I think that there was a point not too long ago, where I was just struggling with some stuff. That I felt like the people in my life were letting me down, repeatedly, in the same ways. And then I started to be like, "Wait, okay, if everyone is bugging me all the time, maybe it's me."
And, so, I had to kind of go, "What's really going on here? Do I need to make some changes?" And it was kind of like that moment of, finally, getting humble enough to say, "Okay, maybe I have to stop pointing at everyone else and start looking at myself. Because that's the only person I can change anyway."
And that was, probably, the most helpful thing, because what I started to realize was a lot of times things that bothered me I wasn't honest about. I wasn't telling the truth to myself or to someone else, and I wasn't saying, "Oh, I'm hurt by this situation."
"Oh, I feel disrespected by that." Or just naming different things that I wasn't letting myself see. And, so, therefore, I wasn't able to work through well with relationships because I couldn't deal with it with myself.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And, so, that starting with the honest starting place of, "Okay, I have a problem." Instead of, "Everyone around me has a problem." That was actually a place where things could start changing, so that was a very important step.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think that's really good. And a lot of times it's, really, hard for us to point the finger back at ourselves.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: But I love what you said because I've been there before, too. It's like, "What is wrong with all these people?"
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And then it's like "Maybe nothing. Maybe it's me." And, so, I think, sometimes, it's hard for us to get there. But that's the first step of figure it out, like you did, of begin the healing process there.
Lindsay: Yes. And that was a couple of years ago and it's been, really, eye-opening to see how much of like, "You know what, it was me I hadn't changed things and I can't change somebody else." And it's just-
Dr. Kim: Right, and we talk about that of and on in the podcast, but it's so important to realize what you just said there. We can't change anybody else but you can change yourself. So even in a situation, I think, sometimes, where I feel like the other person, maybe, really is a problem. Okay, but maybe my problem is I'm not responding to that person in the right way.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, what can I do if that person irritates me and, so, I'm, probably, not as nice to that person. And, so, "Okay, how do I deal with it? Well, I'm going to be kind to that person."
Or, "I'm going to reach out to that person."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, you take that approach than just getting angry and say, "Well, you know what, [Inaudible 00:17:40] they just bug me all the time. I hate being around them." Take a step forward and you put the bridge out there to cross.
Lindsay: Yes. Or, maybe, at other times you put a boundary in place where you say, "We can be around you, but you don't get to make the plans all the time." Or, "You don't get to tell me what I'm doing that day." Put some kind of boundary in place to say, "I'd like to hang out with you but we need to be on equal footing." Some kind of way to not have to be at the mercy of the person and give some honesty there.
Dr. Kim: I think that's really good. The boundary can really help. "Okay, can we redefine this relationship where it's healthy for both of us? Healthier for you." But, definitely, healthy for both of you, and sometimes a boundary and just communicating that it will help too.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's good. Well, so one thing I'm thinking, as we're talking, is we're talking about interpersonal kind of hurts. But what about for the things where it's not a person that's hurt you but a situation. Say it's a loss or some kind of painful situation that's happened. What if your issue is not with another person?
Dr. Kim: What if it's God?
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I was talking to somebody about this and I think it's so true, of this, when something bad happens in our life we don't usually blame the enemy, we blame God.
And, so, you lose a loved one that you prayed for diligently for God to heal, and the person died. And, so, you're bitter, "Why didn't God answer my prayer." And, so, I think in that it's one grieving that person and grieving that loss, and then also learning more about God. That there are things we don't understand.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And that did God heal that person in heaven as opposed to healing them on earth? And, I think, what was best for that person, "Oh, my gosh, this person suffered horribly for two years, and I was asking God, yes, to heal them, but not to take them."
And, so, I think, it gives us a chance to grow in a different way and learning more about God, and learning to trust the fact that He is good, and that He always does good for us and that's hard sometimes. It's easier to get angry and bitter at God. But what does that get us? What does that get me? When I want God and need Him and I haven't really nurtured that relationship with Him, and I separate myself from Him.
So, I think, the bitterness can be at God, and, I think that as Christians, a lot of times we do that and I think non-Christians do.
"That's why I don't believe in your God. Why didn't He do this? Why does He let people suffer? Why did they lose their child?" Those kind of things. And a lot of things we don't have answers for but I think if we dig into it with God, He will take us from bitterness to maybe not complete understanding, but He will heal that.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Does that make sense?
Lindsay: I think so. And I think, too, it's interesting as you're talking it's reminded me it's the same kind of concept. Of like all the questions of why would He this and why does He allow that? Are still finger pointing. It's not the honesty of like, "I'm just really hurt." And that is a lot more productive place to start.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And like you were saying the grief process is a process but it should progress. You shouldn't just stay stuck in one stage, there should be some progression. And, I think, part of that is we have to, at some point, stop pointing fingers or stop saying, "Why God, why?" Because He might not tell you and you don't get to understand everything that He has decided to do.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. And, so, I think, you want to get through those stages of grief to the point of, "I still don't like it, but I accept this is what happened. I'm ready to move forward."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, I think too, Jesus told us that we'd have trouble in this world. And, I think, sometimes, we're going to Christianity thinking, "Wow, we got it made. We're going to have heaven on earth."
Yes, there's great things about being a Christian in this life. It gives us a different perspective. It gives us a joy that, I think, we don't have, otherwise, but we're not in heaven yet. But what He does promise us is He'll always be there. He's there to walk through it with you. He's with those people in a funeral, or in a nursing home, wherever we are that God is there to help us and walk through things with us, and that's really good.
I mean, that what keeps us from being alone in those situations. And, so, I've learned that, "Yes, I might get angry but I've got to get to where I make sure I'm putting God back where He needs to be and seeing Him as who He is and not putting labels on Him that He doesn't deserve, that are negative."
Lindsay: Yes, that's a really healthy place to get to eventually.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and we can talk about it. I, probably, said that in three or four minutes, it's not going to happen in three or four minutes.
Lindsay: Right.
Dr. Kim: But I think just having that mindset of, "God is good and I'm going to figure out where He is good in this, whatever it takes. With His help, maybe the help of some others, maybe a counselor, whatever, I'm going to get there."
Lindsay: Yes, well, and that reminds me you did a great podcast interview with Stacy Hennigan, a couple of years ago, about trusting God in grief. And she talked really through that process that they went through. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes, because it goes a lot deeper on really going through that grief process, she was just, really, encouraging in that.
Dr. Kim: Yes, that's great.
Lindsay: Yes.
[00:23:22] < Music >
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[00:24:08] < Music >
Lindsay: Well, okay, so what is the difference between ignoring and stuffing our hurt and healing from it? Because I know, sometimes, the temptation is to just go, "You know what, I'm going to buckle up. I'm going to pull myself up from my bootstraps, I'm going to get better and just move forward. Forge ahead without dealing." So what's the difference?
How do we make sure we're not just ignoring it, but actually dealing?
Dr. Kim: Because I don't think that works. I mean, you may think it works short term but I don't think it works in the long term because you haven't dealt with it.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And we're just not wired that way. We can't just compartmentalize everything inside of us or let things stack up and just act like they're not there. And, so, I think what usually happens, it does turn into anger or bitterness. Something's going to happen that's different because you haven't dealt with it. And I know some things are hard to deal with and, sometimes, we think, "I'm just going to act like that didn't happen." Well, it did happen.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And there are things that I think can happen that we just decide to choose to let go or choose to give it to God. And I think that is a way of dealing with it. But when we ignore it or stuff it down that we're not dealing with it, and it's going to come back and hurt us. And, so, the healing comes from dealing with it. Admitting if you had a part in that, forgiveness, and then to have a plan for moving forward. So there's a big difference there.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: It takes more work. It takes more effort, but the other side is completely different than ignoring it. Ignoring it, you're not getting rid of it and you're probably going to have something else happen that you'll stack on top of that, and at some point you're just going to go, "Blam!!"
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And it's just all over the place, or it comes out sideways, or you end up hurting someone you don't want to hurt, or those kind of things. So I get that it's hard but it's also absolutely worth it. And once you work through something like that, and you begin to do that consistently. Because your whole life you're going to have people that irritate you or things that happen that you don't understand.
Lindsay: No, say it isn't so!
Dr. Kim: But, I think, the more we get used to going to God and let Him work through that. That becomes just a natural pattern as opposed to getting caught up in our anger and our bitterness.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I know, I think, we should live in a bubble.
Lindsay: Gosh, so funny.
Dr. Kim: You're a pastor's wife, the church is not a safe place, in lot of ways.
Lindsay: No.
Dr. Kim: I mean, you're not going to go to church and not find somebody— there's going to be somebody who irritates you or says something. And, so, you're going to have to deal with it wherever you are.
Lindsay: And if there's not somebody who irritates you, you probably just don't know people there very well.
Dr. Kim: Or it's you.
Lindsay: Or it's you.
Dr. Kim: It's you. Every family has some family member that they dread being around. Or they can do this Christmas and if you're not in that conversation, it's, probably, you that they're talking about.
Lindsay: Oh no. Well, to be honest, that's why we're having this conversation. So we can make sure that we're not becoming that person.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Lindsay: So funny. I remember when I was much younger, the first time I realized there was just that one person in my life who was just driving me up a wall. And I remember thinking, "Once I am in a situation where I'm not dealing with this person, things are going to be so much easier."
And then somebody said something like, "Well, you know, there's always somebody difficult in your life."
And I went, "Oh, man." Because I realized it was true. There's always somebody because you could change context, there's still humans everywhere.
Dr. Kim: Years ago I was on a board and there was a guy on it that I could not stand, he irritated me. Every board meeting, I was hoping he wouldn't be there because I was chair of that board. And, so, one day, after the meeting, God said, "I want you to start praying for him." And I thought, "This isn't you God. This is somebody else telling me to do this."
But I did, and it was amazing. I began to look at that guy different. God, really, did it all, but I opened myself up to see him through God's eyes. And, so, I think, if you got trouble, that really, I think, is a prayer that is sometimes we don't want to pray. But I think God teaches us through that.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: "God help me to see this person through your eyes." Because God loves that person as much as He loves you, that was always hard for me. I thought, "No, He can't love that person as much as He loves me. Doesn't God not know how irritating that person is?"
Lindsay: That is so funny. I love that, that happened though. What a great experience, that's so great.
Dr. Kim: It was. It just came from God and I thought, "Well, darn!"
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: "I want to be justified in my anger, God, and I want you to say you don't like him either."
Lindsay: Right, oh, that's funny. That's a great challenge. I love that. I mean, I love that one and anytime you pray for somebody you're going to shift some things.
Dr. Kim: It does. Whether it's your spouse or whoever it is.
Lindsay: Yes, I know. And I'll tell my kids that, too, when they're irritating each other. I'm like, "Man, you guys are so lucky that you get to practice dealing with somebody who's driving you crazy. Because your whole life there's going to be somebody."
Dr. Kim: There's going to be somebody.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Lindsay: Yes, oh, man, well that just had me remembering some situations that I did not enjoy in my life, but they're long gone. It was such a funny, vivid, moment to realize there's always somebody there. So what if we are stuck dealing with somebody who does not want to get better? If we want to get better and they don't?
Dr. Kim: Yes, and, I think, that's hard because we still always want to, "Okay, I'm working on this and getting better. Why in the heck aren't you interested in getting better?" So I think going back to what you said earlier, Lindsay, is so important, you can only control yourself.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, prayer asking God to help you understand. Asking God, "Is there something I need to do I'm not doing?" I think not enabling that person is important, and then, I think, if you need to set boundaries, like you mentioned earlier, that you set boundaries so that you are okay. So that you're safe, that you're healthy, and it's not your responsibility to change that person. You can give them an opportunity but it's God's job to change that person, and it's that person's job to allow God to come in and change them.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: As a counselor I don't change people, God changes them. I give them ideas, and I talk to them about things, but I can't change them. I can't have somebody come in and say, "I'm angry about this, change me." No, that's something that they have to do and they have to let God do within them.
So I think we have to accept that because we want to control them. "Look, I'm doing better on this, so let me tell you what I did and you can do this." Well, they may not do that.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: Yes, and then you're going to be more annoyed if they don't.
Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly.
Lindsay: One thing with that is do you think, I'm just thinking of certain relationships where a lot of times a person who is more on the bitter side, they like to share, people like to vent. And, so, I think one boundary would be to just put a limit on that and say, "I cannot take your calls if it's just to tell me how mad you are this day."
Dr. Kim: That's right, absolutely. Or put a parameter around it, "Okay, if you need to vent, and I'm your person, how about three minutes and then let's talk about something good?" Or something like that. You're right. And that's, again, putting a boundary around it.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: What can you do to make it healthier for you? And, ultimately, I hope it does make them stop and think a little bit. But that can't be the reason you do it because then you'll be disappointed if they don't.
Lindsay: Right. Yes, but it could help you to not have to put up with it so much.
Dr. Kim: Exactly.
Lindsay: Yes, so, I think, we're all probably still dealing with some hurt, and loss, and grief, and some degree of trauma from the past couple years. And where I live we had a major natural disaster just 18 months before the pandemic, so we were already struggling before. So are you seeing this in the counseling room? Are people, in general, struggling a little bit?
Dr. Kim: Well, I think, the pandemic brought out some things on all of us. It's something we never had experienced before and we had to do things we never had to do. We had to wear a mask. For a while, early on, we had to quarantine and stay in. I can still remember driving down the street and seeing all these places closed, and it was like Christmas day is the only other time I'd see it like that.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And it was just weird. Parking lots empty. So, I think, we had a lot we had to deal with, it was almost surreal at times in that. And then if you're struggling in your marriage or something like that at that time. Or like you guys had where you'd had the hurricane and the trauma of that in your area. And that happened, you know, 18 months was not very long when it came and then you go into the pandemic.
This spring, we had a community that's close to Oklahoma City that had a bad hurricane, a tornado, Seminole, Oklahoma. And, so, those people with everything else that was going on had that come on top of them too.
And, so, I think, just because of the things we've had to deal with, with COVID, and then with the unrest that's happened in our country. With a lot of division that there is more anger and there's more bitterness. And, "Why can't things be the way they used to be." And there has been some loss and just grief of the loss of life was before the pandemic.
And, I think, I've heard so many people over the last couple of years say, "Well, we got to get back to normal." I don't think that normal will never be again because we've experienced the pandemic.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, what's our new normal going to be when we get there, or will we? Is it always going to be something? I don't know. But, I think, as a Christian, you have to deal with it. Take time to grieve, if that's what you need to do, and then trust God because really, what other choice do we have?
Lindsay: Right.
Dr. Kim: I mean, we can just wallow in our bitterness, and hurt, and anger, or we can let God help us heal and help us deal with what we have to deal with day after day. And, to me, that's really what the Christian life is all about.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And how do we be a light in this darkness? And it starts with you. It starts with me of being that light and then, hopefully, it's contagious to somebody else.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. I think you're right. I think there's a lot of stuff that we just, maybe, have to let go of. Let go of looking for these circumstances to come back the way we want them to be because as long as we're looking for that, it's just disappointing.
Dr. Kim: It is. God's always got something. God works good in everything and sometimes it's hard to see it, I get that. Things we've talked about today that are hard to see that, but I think, you keep looking for that.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, eventually we do see it most of the time.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, but I don't think we can as long as we're still fixated on what we've lost. Like, I think, if you're looking for, like you said, for the exact old normal to come back, that's going to be really frustrating. Because you're not even present with what's happening now.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and, I think, realizing that grief is not just when somebody dies. There's grief in life when doesn't go the direction that we thought it was going to go, and certainly death is in that. But it could be a divorce, it could be an illness, it could be anything. A pandemic, nobody saw that coming, life was very different for us. And, so, that's a grief process and if we don't grieve through that. We're going to have some consequences from it just because we didn't deal with it.
Lindsay: Yes, so how do you think, in general, how can we assess where we are? If we don't know if we need to grieve, like you just said, or we don't know if we're really in a healthy place or not. How can we practically get a good feel for where we are right now, to move forward?
Dr. Kim: In January, Nancy and I started playing pickleball, well, a little over a year ago now, but it's about six, five months. We were loving it. We're doing a lot of things with friends and I thought I was really getting good. And, so, January 9th I broke my wrist because I went for a shot I shouldn't and I went down, and not only broke it but I had to have surgery.
And, so, I thought I was really handling things well but I really wasn't. And I did slip into a depression, I think, it happened and I ignored some warning signs. Nancy was my helper in that and she said, "You just seem like you're kind of down."
And I realized that things I enjoy doing I was not doing. I think I grieved not being able to go play something that had become a big part of my life for three months, then I couldn't play.
And, so, I think, I began to look at this, "I'm not enjoying things as much. There's things that I would really look forward to and enjoy and I'm not." And, so, I think, realizing, and a broken wrist doesn't even compare with the death or anything like that. But I think things like that, it's an example of when life didn't go the way we thought it was going to go.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, I had to be aware of that and I was, kind of, withdrawing from people. I remember when my dad died, which has been 22 years ago, I guess now, and my dad and I were just so close and I looked up to him so much and it was really hard. I'd lost grandparents and I'd lost some other things, but not someone as that integral in my life.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Because we worked day-to-day together, until I went into ministry, for 13 years. And, so, we were very close and I just remember, I thought I was doing pretty good. And then, probably, I don't know, six or eight weeks after he died. I got up that day and everything was like in color, and I realized I've been seeing everything in black and white since he died.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, I think, just knowing that when something happens to us, that we're probably going to, if we're human at all, it's going to affect us. And, I think, it's taking time to see, "How is it affecting us?" Ask your spouse. Ask other people. Ask God, and then pray through it and just be honest with yourself.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: We weren't created to deal with those things and just pop up the next day, we're not robots. We weren't just like we can be programmed, and as a quick aside, I had a guy I worked with. He was probably into his mid-thirties when I met with him.
But I think this is an example of the things people used to deal with. His mom died when he was eight years old. He went to the funeral, well, while they were at the funeral people came in and they took his mother out of the house. Pictures, anything that was referenced to her was removed from the house.
It was like, "She died, we had the funeral, now we're not going to talk about it anymore." And they didn't and he had never shared that to me and the other thing he shared with me that he had prayed every night for his mom to get well except the night she died.
Lindsay: Oh, no.
Dr. Kim: And nobody was there to talk to him about it. It was like she never existed, so he could never talk with anybody about it.
Lindsay: Wow.
Dr. Kim: So just an example of, I think, people didn't used to deal. Some cultures, and I'm not sure what church he grew up in or whatever, they didn't deal with things well like that. So that was something that had framed him, been a part of his life for a long time, and he never told anybody that story until we went in counseling, and it was a huge change for him.
It was then that he was able to really grieve. And it was then that he was able to see how it affected him, and he could then how to move forward. And his wasn't really the bitterness, it was just this confusion and some anger in there, too, of "I loved her, why don't we ever talk about her?"
Lindsay: Mm-hmm
Dr. Kim: It's kind of an extreme example, but I think it really illustrates what we're talking about.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, because I've heard it said, and I'm not sure if I'm quoting, I don't know who I'm quoting, so it's not really a quote. But I've heard that "Hurts that are buried are buried alive, and the conflicts that are buried are buried alive." So these things that we stuff away and don't deal with it's not gone, it's just not dealt with, and it's waiting to come out of-
Dr. Kim: And you never know when it might come out if you don't do it.
Lindsay: Yes, that was a good example. I think, too, just thinking about all of that, I loved that you shared the example about your wrist because, I think, a lot of us do what you did. We're like, "Well, it's not as bad as if it's loss of a life or it's not as bad, it could be a lot worse.
And, for me, that's a kind of an unhealthy stuffing mechanism that I would use a lot like, "Oh, well I have this thing but it's not as bad as somebody else's." And then in that way I'm not dealing with it because I'm just comparing it and trying to brush it off, but that's not helpful or healthy.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: Because even though it's a different hurt, it still is a hurt that needs to be dealt with.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. You lose a finger, "Well, I still got nine.” But you did lose that one. And we know that, sometimes, you still have feeling where that finger was. And, so, you've got to grieve that and, "Okay, what's my new normal going to be?" And sometimes we do try to, I don't know, sometimes, Christians we're, probably, the worst, "Oh, that doesn't bother me. God's taken care of it."
Lindsay: Oh, my goodness.
Dr. Kim: Well, yes, but God wired us a certain way to deal with things.
Lindsay: Yes, and I've heard some, truly, bothersome stories. Of just different types of Christian cultures, really, actively, pushing this like, "Everything's okay, you have to be happy. You have to stay happy, rejoice always." This sort of false positivity over everything that is not true. Or that people would come in when you're grieving a loved one and say, "Well, you know that all things happen for good for those who love Him." And you're like, "No." I mean, it's true, ultimately, but it's not the time for that.
Dr. Kim: No, you want to straighten them out. It is not the time for that.
Lindsay: So that is a culture that many of us may have been exposed to if we've been in church, but that is not helpful for processing. And I don't think godly, I mean, look at the Psalms, the Psalms are full of grief, lament, and anger, everything.
Dr. Kim: Jesus wept, when Lazarus died. I mean, we know Jesus had those emotions, they are okay. He didn't act like everything was okay. And He knew He was going to heal him, but He still grieved.
Lindsay: Yes, that's so true.
Dr. Kim: He grieved, He was empathetic with the sisters and others that were grieving.
Lindsay: Yes, He did not tell them to suck it up.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: Yes, that's a great example. So what are some practical ways to really make the switch. To go from stuck and cynical and bitter, to healing and growing?
Dr. Kim: I think a lot of times counseling, really, does help with this just to dig in and do that. I think prayer is an important part of it. I think journaling is an important part of that. All those things where you could begin to process and then, I think, some accountability, "Hey, I am stuck with this. I need you to walk through this with me."
So, I think, those are some good things, but don't hesitate to go to a counselor if you feel like. God made Christian counselors, I believe, to help us walk our journeys through life. And if you feel like you need to go a Christian counselor, talk to somebody that's been to one, get a recommendation, and go and see what God does in that situation.
Just don't say stuck there that's the main thing. Do whatever it takes to go through this and you may want to talk to your pastor. Just find someone that you feel safe with and you feel like can help you and take that time.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And if you're married, ask your spouse to be praying for you. Pray together with your spouse for this because, I think, sometimes we don't involve our spouse in those situations. And that's why you got married for better or worse, rich or poor, sickness, health, all those kind of things.
So live out the vows that you took. Involve your spouse in that and let them walk beside you. And, one, I think it's an easier walk. Two, I think it'll grow your marriage.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, getting through that together. That's really good. And, I think, one other thing I would add to that list is, I think, worship. Worshiping God through music and in the Word. Journaling through the Psalms can help you get in touch with some of the things you've been dealing with. But, I think, just shifting our perspective, sometimes, really can be helpful, and I think worship is very powerful to do that.
Dr. Kim: I totally agree. Sitting down with, maybe, your Bible and a pencil or a pen and paper and have worship music on, and just asking God to guide you through that time can be powerful. He just will show up.
Lindsay: I think that's good. And, I think, sometimes if you are unaware that there's some stuff you're dealing with, and you haven't named it or worked through it. Sitting down with the Bible and a pencil seems like the scariest thing you could do. Because you have to be willing to think through this stuff and remember hurtful things, and process through them. So it is a little bit terrifying to sit alone and quiet, but I do think it's a great place to start.
Dr. Kim: Yes, and you're doing it with someone that loves you more than you can even imagine, so don't lose sight of that. And it isn't easy, I don't know that I've ever worked with somebody, counseled someone that did that, that said, they regretted it. It was always a positive step.
Lindsay: That's good. Well, Dr. Kim, this has been a really encouraging and helpful conversation, for us, today. Do you have one final piece of advice for our listeners?
Dr. Kim: Well, I think what I would say out of this, take time to just pray today, or the next day or so. And just ask God, "Is there something there that needs to change? Am I angry? Am I bitter? Is there something that you would reveal?"
And see what God does? And some of you are listening and thinking, "I know it." Okay, well, take that first step. Maybe, that first step is talking to your spouse about it. Asking your spouse to pray with you, coming up with a plan together, just don't stay stuck, I guess, would be the main thing because it is not going to just go away.
Lindsay: Hmm, yes, that's good. That's a good place to end. So, we’ll end this week, like we do with our anonymous question of the week from one of our listeners, and today's it's a really fun one. So this is an easy one for you, Dr. Kim. What is one of the best dates you and Nancy have had lately?
Dr. Kim: We try to make everything a date. But in May we were asked to go to Vancouver to do a wedding.
My best friend, who I'd grown up with, he was the best man in our wedding at our marriage. His daughter was getting married and they asked me to do that. And then we had a free afternoon when we were up there. So Nancy and I got bikes, and they have this huge park that takes a couple of hours to bike around called Stanley Park.
And, so, we did that and you're right there on the water, and some of the boats there are gorgeous. Just beautiful landscape. And there's an aquarium there and we stopped for a while and went into the aquarium. And it was just being out and we love being out in the nature.
Lindsay: Mh-hmm.
Dr. Kim: It was a place we had never been before. It was a challenging ride and a fun ride. But that was just a great afternoon date that we did because we were pretty structured the time we were there. But we took the advantage of that just to go off, the two of us, and it's one of the experiences you just talked about.
"Remember that day we took that bike ride."
Or "Remember when this happened." Nancy did fall over once and these two guys that were built like I would like to be built, were right there to help her up. And I was over there and she said, "No, they're helping me." But she was okay.
Lindsay: Okay, good, I laughed and then I felt like "Oh, no!" I was assuming she was fine.
Dr. Kim: She was fine. She fell on a bush. I think she had a couple of stickers, but that was about it.
Lindsay: Maybe she saw the guys and she's like, "I'm going to need some help."
Dr. Kim: Yes, I don't know, but they were great. But those kind of things are things you remember and have fun. So it was really a memorable date that we'll remember, it was fun.
Lindsay: That sounds awesome. That sounds really fun, I love that.
Dr. Kim: It was good.
Lindsay: Well, thanks for sharing that good date idea, hopefully, some of us can go have some fun with our spouse. That'd be great way to keep this conversation processing stuff.
So if you are subscribed to Dr. Kim's One Thing each day email then you have the option to submit an anonymous question as well. There's a link right in the email for that. If you're not signed up, make sure you sign up for that today, the link is always in our show notes for Dr. Kim's One Thing.
And to end this episode we circle back where we started, talking about my granddad, who was the inspiration for this. His wife, Annie, was on an episode of the Awesome Marriage podcast just several months back, and her story is just so encouraging.
It's a great example of somebody who, also, did not get bitter, but got better and I love listening to that and I think you'll enjoy that too. So make sure to listen to that, if you haven't, we'll link that in the show notes too.
Remember you can always find us on Facebook, on Instagram, and Dr. Kim is on TikTok. And, of course, we can always get emails from you at info@awesomemarriage.com, if there's anything we can do to help you. Thanks for joining us today. Have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today.
[00:50:04] < Music >
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