5 Tips for Reviving A Lifeless Marriage Ep. 527
[00:00:00] < Intro >
Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling.
Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.
Is your marriage what you dreamed it would be?
For a lot of people, it's not, not at all, and that's why there are terms like a dead marriage, a walkaway wife, neglected wife syndrome, or the starter marriage. Or maybe the honeymoon is just over and you don't have much hope that things will get better. And, so, that's why today we're talking about ways to deal with and to revive a dead marriage. So, Dr. Kim, as we get started, today, what are some symptoms of a lifeless marriage?
Dr. Kim: I kind of got going on a list, but I'll go through some of the things that I see, probably, where I see people struggling when they come into counseling. I mean, they don't come into counseling and tell me how great their marriage is. They come in because things are not well.
So, I think, surface level, if any, communication. In other words, all it is, is just, "How's your day?"
"Fine."
Something like that, where you're not really connecting there. Sex life is non-existent or you feel like we're just going through the motions, or one person feels like they're being used because there's no attention outside of the sexual attention.
I think when there's no spiritual life together, there's a huge void there. I'm biased, I'm a Christian, I believe God needs to be at the center of your marriage, but I think that's that there's a reason why.
I think when you continue to have unresolved conflict where you get to the point of you don't even fight anymore, you don't have any hope that it's going to be resolved, you don't. There's no spark. There's no "I can't wait to see him."
"I can't wait to see her."
"I can't wait to have that date this weekend," those kind of things. And then just lack of respect, or empathy, or kindness, those are things that I just see that just continue to pull a marriage apart, and put a wedge between them. And, so, I think, all of those, there's, probably, a lot more that people could add to that, that have been through that or are in that situation right now.
But, I think, basically, all of those get summed up that we don't connect. We don't put God first, we don't put our spouse second, and we don't do that day after day, and then we, all of a sudden, there's no life in our marriage anymore.
Lindsay: Yes, it could be a slow process just a little bit at a time.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, I think if it happened all at once it would, probably, get our attention. But, I think it is, like with lack of respect, maybe, I say or do something and it bothers Nancy, but she doesnt say anything about it. And then I do something else, and something else, and then I get in this pattern of doing those things. And, all of a sudden, the relationship is not where it needs to be, or she doesn't feel respected, and, so, she pulls away from me. And, so, yes, I don't think most of them happen all at once because, I think, it could get our attention.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And it's just a little bit at a time. And then the sad part is, I think, some people just decide, "We've decided we're not going to get a divorce, so we're just going to live through this." And, so, you have a lifeless marriage.
I had one couple that he lived upstairs and she lived downstairs in two-story house. They might pass each other in the kitchen, as they're fixing their own meals, but that was their marriage and it had no life to it, and it was just existing together. They didn't want to get a divorce, a lot of that was for financial reasons, and they just lived a lifeless marriage. And I just told them, "You're missing so much by accepting that that's what our marriage is going to be."
Lindsay: Yes, and, I think, if I could go back to something you said at the start of your answer. Which I think was really helpful, is that people do not come to you to say how good their marriage is. I think it's easy to think when your marriage is hard that it's easier for everyone else, and that other people have easier time of it.
But I know that you could say, as a counselor, that you see all kinds of things, and it's not that it has to stay that way. But it's okay, if you're starting in a rough spot, there's some hope to move out of that.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely.
Lindsay: And that's where we're coming from today. You've seen all kinds of things, but you've seen things change, and grow, and there's hope.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely and one of the things, I think, I try to do is to help people see there's hope, in the first session. We're not going to solve everything, usually, in the first session or resolve it. But to hear their story and to share that they're not the only ones who've gone through this and there's hope, and that means a lot.
Lindsay: Oh, yes, hope means a whole lot. And, so, I think, that's where we're coming from today, with this topic. All of these things we're going to list and share, it's not so that you can just say, "Okay, great, that's normal. But it's so you can say, "But there's a way forward."
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And, so, some of the signs and symptoms that I have seen of a lifeless marriage is that you're dealing with a completely apathetic spouse. They have just checked out, or given up, or shut down. Another is that you find yourself needing to vent frequently. That might be to friends, family members, or online somewhere.
You might feel that you love your spouse but don't like them. So you're committed to them but you don't really enjoy them at all. You might feel like they're a different person, that they've changed, and they're not the same person you married. Or that one spouse or the other has just given up, and you mentioned this, too. That they tried to communicate their unhappiness or they tried to communicate this desire for things to change, but the message wasn't received, so they just gave up.
Dr. Kim: Yes, I think that, and to me, that's so sad. When you're bold enough to finally say something to your spouse, "Hey, something needs to change. I think we need to do this. I think we need to go to counseling." And your spouse says, "No." That's hard and, I think, that is a huge step toward a lifeless marriage. Because then you take, what we've just been talking about, you take the hope out of it.
There's always hope because of God, and, so, then I think their role is to just keep praying that the spouse wouldn't want the marriage to be better. But that's a big knock, when your spouse just refuses to talk about it or begin to get help anyway.
Lindsay: Yes, and, I think, one thing that I see is a lot of questions that we get at Awesome Marriage do deal with this. A lot of people are asking either, "I try to communicate and it didn't go well, or it wasn't received, or they just said, 'No.'" Or deal with it, be less sensitive, whatever type of thing they tried and it failed, or they just don't know how to effectively get the point across, and, so, that's frustrating.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm, yes, and, obviously, a couple, I think, when you get in those situations, it really does help to have counseling. But, again, you both got to want it to change. I think one thing that I've seen some people that come in one of them has hope, one of them wants to work on it, but the other doesn't. And they just go in there so they can kind of check the box, "Well, we went to counseling and that didn't work either."
So sometimes counseling can even make it more frustrating, if you're not both willing to put the work in to make it better. And that's why, I think, a lot of counselors, me included, give couples homework just to see, "How motivated are you?" And it's not like you have to write a thesis, it's like, "Okay, this week do this and let's talk about it next week."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Maybe it's like, "You're not praying together, you're willing to do that, pray three times this week together." And then if they come back and one of them says, "Well, I wanted to but they said, 'A little bit later.' And then they went to sleep and then we didn't." Or whatever.
And, so, both people have to be for it and both people have to be willing to put in the work. And it's always both, it's never just one person. I mean, when it gets to that point both of you have work to do.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, that's a good perspective. A good counselor perspective for the rest of us to hear.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: Yes. So what are some of the things that these lifeless marriages have in common?
Dr. Kim: Well, I think there's no connection, and, I think, that would be the thing. Because, I think, when we're connected the things like not having a good sex life, or not having a spiritual life together, or not resolving conflict, all those kind of things and we want those things.
And, so, when we don't have connection those things don't happen. And, so, we pull farther apart, we're not communicating. We're not, really, sharing on a deep level or any kind of a level, really. And, so, I think, it's one person maybe has given up, one person's gotten lazy.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I think I hear that a lot, kind of, we're talking about, the husband lays on the couch all the time and doesn't do anything. So you get into those patterns and it's just, to me, it's so sad because I always, usually, get back at couples, "What did you want when you got married?"
"What were your hopes?"
"What were your dreams when you stood and said, 'I do.'" And some of them are unrealistic, they were just kind of rose-colored glasses. But a lot of them, really, are a picture of what a marriage really could be. And then somewhere along the line they got discouraged, something happened and they didn't work on it, things weren't resolved, and then they end up with this lifeless marriage. And just trying to help them see, "You can have what you wanted. God has something great for you and we'll take a step at a time."
Sometimes it's just beginning to take that, both of them, committing to take the first step is huge. Because, hopefully, we can build on that then faith.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, it goes back to not connecting well and then just not doing anything about it.
Lindsay: Yes, and I really like that you mentioned that it's taking a step and then taking more steps. Because you can't fix it with one step, but you can't fix it with zero steps either. It's like you have to start in order to make some progress.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And, I think, one of the things I see in common is that there's just that fear that it won't change, there's a fear that it's not worth it, the fear that it's hopeless. And, so, there's just this deep disappointment and sort of a fear of even trying because then it would hurt more if nothing changes.
Dr. Kim: Yes. No, I think that happens sometime, or maybe they've tried before, or maybe they tried a different counselor, or whatever, and, so, they just think, "This not going to work?" And, again, there's always hope. God has not given up on any marriage, I just don't believe that.
Lindsay: Yes, so what are the some of the things that would cause this type of marriage?
Dr. Kim: I think our culture affects it a lot, especially in the United States, where we have words. So we say, "How're you doing?"
"Busy."
I mean, how many times do you hear that, when you have told somebody that? And it's an easy answer, but for a lot of people it's really true and they haven't gotten a hold of their schedule. They haven't gotten a hold of the demands. They haven't been able to prioritize the things that they need to prioritize, being, as we're talking today about, about marriage.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, if my schedule, all it has on it are my appointments, and my work time, and there's no time there for my marriage, or for Nancy I to be together, or for us to have that date night. That I've let my busyness, "I've just got to write this blog."
"I've got to do this."
"I've got to see a few more people this week."
Then that affects my marriage. One thing that my pastor said years ago, that hit me, and I've remembered ever since. And he said, "When you say yes to one thing you're saying no to something else." And most of us end up saying no to our spouse or our family because we don't say no to the person in front of us.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, I think, we just don't get a hold of the time. And, so, we stay busy and productive and, sometimes, our busyness gives us more if our marriage isn't good. We get more out of the busyness because people are saying, "God, he's the hardest worker in this company."
Or "he does such a good job, man, I can't believe it."
But on the other end of it, the family, the spouse, is dying over here because you're not there and it can go male, female, I've seen it both ways. I've seen the wife in the workplace do the same thing. And, so, I think, all of those things can, really, cause that distance to come, the lifeless marriage to come.
And then another one I thought of is that we get lazy. We said that a little bit earlier, I think, we work on it. I think guys are so guilty of this, we pursue you, and pursue you, and pursue you, and once we get you then we go pursue something else. I heard James Dobson say that probably 30, 40 years ago, and it's still true today.
So we get complacent, and that's what I tell guys all the time, "You pursued your wife to get her, you got to pursue her until she dies or you die." Whatever it is.
You got to keep doing that because we need that. And, so, when we get lazy in our relationships, I think, that we're just not putting the effort in. We're not putting the creativity in. We're not letting our wife or husband know how special they are, doing little things for them.
A lot of those things don't take a lot of work. If you just give your spouse a card when they're not expecting it, or you give them a handwritten card, or you say, "I'm going to do the dishes for you tonight. I want you to go in and just finish that book you're reading." Just anything that can continue to show that you care and you're interested in them.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: One thing that I see, and we've talked about this and I wrote about it in 14 Keys book, is a child-centered marriage. And that how many couples I've worked with that say they have three, four, five years before they have their first child. And they'll talk about how good that time was, and all the things they did, and how they enjoyed each other.
But then once children came the focus began to go away from the marriage and onto the kids. And, obviously, kids take time and energy, but they're a distraction to your marriage. And, so, you've got to intentionally nurture your marriage those times. And, so, when you don't and everything's about the kids, those are the couples that someday look at each other when the kids are gone and go, "I'm not sure I know who you are anymore because we haven't talked for 18 or 20 years, or whatever on a real deep, we haven't stayed connected."
So, I think, there's got to be a balance there. You can be great parents and a great spouse at the same time, and that should be a goal.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And then, I think, the other thing, probably, everything falls under this is when we don't put our marriage right behind God. God first spouse second. When we don't do that, then I think we're opening the door to all kinds of things that are not going to give us the marriage that we want, and will take and just squeeze the life out of our marriage over time.
God's going to keep us on the right path. If I'm seeking Him, He's not going to have me do anything that's not good for my marriage or good for Nancy. And He's going to also encourage me to do things, He's also going to give me ideas of things to do, to make my marriage better, He just does.
Lindsay: Yes, that's really good. I think, too, that lands us back where you started talking about busyness, distraction, lack of margin. I think, if we're honest, sometimes, distractions are just more fun or easier than dealing with the hard parts of marriage.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: It can feel a lot more rewarding, like you said, because you might be getting some pats in the back. You might just be getting paid for working more so that's lucrative. But, I think that a lot of times, too, it's just kind of nice to say, "Well, I don't have time to deal with that, sorry." And just kind of, "We got to cope because we're too busy." Because we don't even know where to begin, sometimes.
I think a lot of us, maybe, we lack the tools to address our issues effectively. Maybe we haven't seen it done, maybe, for so many decades, the statistics are varying, but somewhere around half of marriage has been ending in divorce for decades.
And, so, tons of us don't have a model for dealing well with marriage issues. We haven't seen that done. We haven't seen marriages last, so we don't even know how to address these things. And then, I think, that there is the expectation that things might not last. There's not that expectation of longevity that has been around. Your grandma, probably, used the same oven for 35 years but nobody does that now, that's just not part of it.
Dr. Kim: No.
Lindsay: But, I think, like you said, the expectation that it's normal to just be so busy and it's normal to just be have no margin and be distracted. And even with the child-centered marriage thing, all these things will pull at us and our marriage won't necessarily be yelling for attention. It, kind of, might be the background unless we choose to value it.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely. Now, you have to be intentional about your marriage. I mean, I think, Satan didn't want marriage just to work, if we put it on a spiritual warfare level. And, so, we have to be smarter than him, we got to be ahead of him. We got to do the things that make your marriage work and not just fall into some of the patterns he would love us to fall into, that are not going to be good for a marriage relationship.
Lindsay: Yes, that's such a great point because I think a lot of us are not thinking in that way.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: There's, actually, a spiritual component.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, there's a battle out there, and the more I've become aware that the more intentional I am about a lot of things. Because God will help us fight those battles. I mean God's stronger than the enemy, and He will help you kick the enemy's butt anytime it gets in your way. But you just got to be aware of it and let God do that through you.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Or do it anyway.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: Because He doesn't need me.
Lindsay: Just let Him go. Just let Him do his thing.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
[00:18:08] < Music >
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[00:19:01] < Music >
Lindsay: So how have you seen this lifeless marriage situation playing out with the couples that you've counseled?
Dr. Kim: I think they quit working on the marriage.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: The other thing, I think, and I've talked a lot about this concept in the last couple of years. Because I really think a lot of stuff that Caroline Leaf has done is really how we look at our spouse, how we frame our spouse. And, so, I think, it's easy to, then, frame your spouse in a negative way, and, so, then, everything that they do you pass through that grid.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, you just have this really negative concept of your spouse which usually breeds hopelessness, and usually ends up in a lifeless marriage. Because you're just thinking, "Well, they're lazy, or they don't care, or they're not going to work. They're not going to work as hard as me on it." Whatever it is that you put them in this negative way, it's like you put them in this box and you have them all figured out. You've got the box sealed and that is your husband, that is your wife.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: Instead of letting them out of that box and letting them become who God created to be, and to revive your marriage. And, I think, you hit that, too, that they don't like each other. And, I think, once you reframe someone it's, really, you still do not like that person.
Because everything you're thinking about is passing through that grid that you've created as you framed your spouse. And then it's like you start asking, "Why are we together? I don't even like you."
Maybe there's some love there somewhere, but I've had people tell me that, "I don't like my spouse. They're a good father or they're a good wife, but I'm not in love with them anymore. I love what they do." And, again, like we talked about earlier, those don't happen overnight, those are the little things that chip away. And, so, I think, a lot of it is figuring out if any of these are hitting a hot button for you, it's time to do something about it. You got to take a first step.
Lindsay: Yes. So what can one spouse do if they're in this situation?
Dr. Kim: I think you got to look at yourself first. What are you doing or what are you not doing in this lifeless marriage? One of the things of praying and asking God to help you in your marriage. Help you be who He wants you to be as a spouse that day, a husband, or a wife, and getting in that, I guess, kind of contract with God and being obedient to that.
"Okay, how does God want me to treat my spouse no matter what they do?" And we're taking abuse out of that, but say they're lying on the couch all day.
And I was reading a book and this lady's example was that he just used to make her so mad. She'd be doing the dishes and he's lying on the couch, and he's watching TV. And she said, "I just decided I need to join him."
She went over and sat down on the couch with him, and she watched the show. And after it was over, she said, "Thank you for teaching me how to just relax a little bit, I appreciate that." Well, she did that a number of times, and then the shocker was after they finished the show, and she said that one time he said, "Let me help with the dishes." Wow. It was like, "Okay." So there's a lot of ways that you can do that.
But you got to look at yourself, what do I need to do? What does God want me to do? And then, I think, just pick one thing that you can work on. Maybe it's "I'm going to be a better listener. I know that I'm multitasking when my spouse is talking and they don't have my full attention."
Maybe it's, "Oh, yes, I know what his love language is or her love language is how can I meet that today? How can I talk about it with my spouse? How do we make it better? How do I be kind to my spouse?" I mean, all of those kind of things. But it, really, comes from you, you cannot change them.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, I think, a lot of times we spend a lot of time trying to change them. We can nag at them, we can coerce them, we can try to manipulate them. We can do all these unhealthy things to try to get them to do what you want them to do, as a spouse, or there's life in our marriage. Which usually is pushing them farther apart. It's really just, "What can I do?"
And I can't have control over that. And with God's help, I can do some pretty good things and the prayer is then, that your spouse will see that you are trying, hopefully, that will encourage them to try to. But, at least, every day you go to bed and you can say, "God, with Your help, I think, I did pretty good job of being a spouse today."
"I think, I did some things that you would want me to do as a husband or a wife." And, so, the obedience, it takes out, "Well, if I do this, they better do this." It's like, "No, God wants me to do this every day no matter what that spouse does or doesn't do." And that's not easy.
Lindsay: Yes, that's such a helpful way to look at it, though. You're right it's not easy, but that's a, really, helpful thought process. Because, then, it's taking out like that score keeping. It's taking out the conditional love where like, "If you do this I'll do that." Those are, probably, common ways to look at marriage, but it's not effective, it's not going to go well.
Dr. Kim: No, and, I think, that's why the more you can keep it between you and God or you and your Christian counselor the better. We've talked about us in another podcast, you can get a lot of bad advice.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And when you're in a lifeless marriage, if you're going to get advice look at somebody in your church or that you know, who, maybe, is a stage ahead of you in marriage. And you look at them and you think, "Yes, they're not perfect but they seem to have got it and they have worked through this stage we're in." And there's a lot of wisdom in a lot of people, and you want to find someone that has similar beliefs to you, as you do and similar values. But finding someone that you can talk to.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. And I love, too, the example that you used of just sitting on the couch with him. Because, I think, that some of this is simple as we assume that our spouse needs to do things the way we would do them, or the way we want them done. And in marriage you do have two people, and even if they have been married for a long time and love each other so much, they don't think alike. And, so, there's always going to be little differences. And, so, letting go of those expectations that your spouse is going to be another you, can be a really helpful place to start.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and your spouse is not going to be like your dad or your mom, especially if you thought your dad or mom were great. They will be who God created them to be, and that will be perfect for you. But you can't fit them in this mold of, "I want you to be just like my dad. So you need to be doing this, this, and this. And you're supposed to mow the lawn twice a week and you don't even mow it every two weeks." And just come alongside each other and work out those differences.
But, yes, I love the idea of really just coming along. What she did was just come alongside him, and, I think, she had done some thinking ahead of time. Of, "This is not good. I'm mad at him every night while I'm doing dishes, and last week I broke three dishes because I was so doggone mad."
I think, originally, it was just not with the best intentions. She said, "I'm just going to have a sit down strike too." But when she sat down and he scooted next to her, and commented on something about the show with her. And she just said, "I learned something."
And I started thinking that, "He's in this new position in his job and there's a lot more stress than there was. And I guess he's really exhausted when he gets home and that's his one way to unwind. I want to unwind with him and you know what the dishes will always be there."
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Kim: And, so, she talked through that and then the day when she told me that he had helped with the dishes, it was like, "Wow, that's really cool."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, I love that too. And there is a way to deal with these things and it doesn't have to be conflict and it, certainly, is not going to be through nagging. That's not effective and that's just not a good look for anybody. But I love that, kind of, outside the box approach of just look at yourself, "What can I do here?"
"What can I change?"
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: And, maybe, "What can I compromise on, or what can I let go of, or what can I appreciate about them?" And I love that even if she didn't start that way, but she ended up appreciating his approach.
Dr. Kim: Yes.
Lindsay: That's cool.
Dr. Kim: Yes, it was cool, it really is. And, I think, it's just, maybe, empathy, maybe putting yourself in their shoes or maybe just say, "Well, maybe, there's something I can learn from this."
Lindsay: Yes. So in your counseling experience, have you seen dead marriages be revived?
Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely, and, I think, when that happens is when they both are there because they want to be there. They're both committed, they want to regain what either what they had and lost or what they never figured out in their marriage. And, so, I think, that's once they're both committed, then they're both working on things. I encourage them, every couple, to pray together and some couples have never done that, and some people are scared to do that, and it's awkward. I had a couple last week do that, we are doing some premarital stuff, and they pray but they've never prayed together.
So we talked about how to ease into that. And, so, they were just going to pick a topic that was important to both of them and they were both going to be praying about it, together, but they're going to pray silent. They didn't feel comfortable praying out loud, that's great.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: But you can, also, just pray together and say, "God, we need your help. Help us." He's going to get that message. And then the ones that I think, obviously, if I've seen them they've come to counseling. And one of the things, I think in counseling, when both people are really working on it, there's someone to help guide you, certainly.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: But there's that accountability. Because I think a lot of times we start in and we get frustrated, or we don't realize it's going to take a bunch of steps, like you said, instead of one big step. Most of it is never going to be fixed in one big step, and, so, I think, that can be a real help. So, yes, it can be revived if you both commit. You're praying to God to help and you're seeking guidance and accountability.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And if you do that consistently— I tell couples a lot of time, a year from now you can look back on this and you can say, "I hated that season, but like what God did and look where we are now." And it's just being consistent with it and the blessings of working on a marriage and getting it where God wants it to be are amazing.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: I mean, that's really what marriage is all about. And, I think, you'll find things, in a marriage, that you've worked on that way with God's help, there is far better than anything you'd ever do on your own.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Yes, that's really encouraging because, I think, in that tough season it's really hard to see out of. But once you get through and you can look back on it, you can see such a difference. And you can see how far you've come and you just might find yourself in a place you never could have imagined. But you couldn't have gotten there if you hadn't started somewhere with taking steps.
Dr. Kim: Yes, one thing when you said that, I think, it's always good when you're trying to work on something to journal, and you don't have to write a book. But just some things because then you can look back and, sometimes, it can go a month or six weeks and think, "Are we making progress?" And then you can look back to six weeks ago and you can say, "Oh, wow, we are making progress." And, I think, it gives you a chronology of what God does and what you guys do, and it helps keep you on track. So I always encourage people to do that because I think it's just, really, helpful to see the progress you're making.
Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, and that's encouraging in itself. That's what our counselor calls getting traction. So she says, "You start with these things. At first, they feel super awkward because there's stuff you've never done before, and you're using new solutions and tools that you haven't used. And it's like working out with a muscle you never even knew you had before."
And, so, you start, and it's awkward, and you're trying, and you're stumbling. But then at a certain point you just start getting some traction, things start working a little better. It's not going to always stay on that same trajectory. But you have to recognize like, "Hey we are actually doing it. We're doing it." And then that encourages you to keep trying.
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, yes, you just continue to build on that. And you're right, I don't know about everyone, but anyone I've worked with started taking steps, and they just keep stepping forward. Sometimes there's a step back but you're not going all the way back to the bottom.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kim: And, so, then you figure out, "Okay, what do we need to do? This is something to get past and to continue moving forward." And, so, it is that process to get to where you want to go.
Lindsay: Yes. And that, too, I think, it's important that we talked at the beginning of the episode, how these things don't happen overnight to get you in the bad spot. And, so, it doesn't make sense that it would be overnight to get to the good spot too.
Dr. Kim: Right. And if it's taken you 20 years to get your marriage this screwed up, it's not going to take 20 years to get it healthy. So don't be discouraged in that, but it's going to take some time and take some work and effort.
Lindsay: Yes, but once you start moving, you're going to see the progress for sure.
Dr. Kim: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay: So how would you encourage the spouse who is struggling in their lifeless marriage right now?
Dr. Kim: Well, if you haven't talked to your spouse about it, I think that's your first step. Is to sit down and say, "Hey, I was just thinking, or I listened to this podcast and I realized our marriage is kind of lifeless. It's not where, I think, either one of us want it to be. I want to work on making it better, are you willing to do that with me?"
And if they say, yes, then, what I tell couples, you can start, I think, most of the time counseling will help. I think, it's the best money you can spend, and to get with a counselor that can really help you get back on track, or maybe it's a mentor couple. Somebody that kind of help you and put the accountability in there with it.
But, I think, you start with, "Is my spouse willing to do that?" Sometimes the spouse isn't, and, so, I think, it's okay for you to go to counseling by yourself.
What do you need to do?
Work on yourself?
And then, hopefully, your spouse will see that you're really putting the effort that will encourage them to join you in the effort. But, always, just try to do what's healthy for you and then be with someone who's giving you good counsel, and then, hopefully, your spouse will join you in that at some point.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. I've seen spouses get FOMO when their spouse is going to counseling, and starting to make some progress, they're seeing things change. But it's like, "What's, really, going on." And then they start to go, "Wait a minute, maybe, I'm missing out. Maybe I could be getting something out of this too." So it can be a great step.
Dr. Kim: Well, and your spouse may question and think, "Oh, yes, they've said they're going to change before." So you may be on your own island for a while with this, working on yourself with a counselor and with God.
But that's okay, you're going to be better off for it. And at some point your spouse will say, "I think they're serious this time. I see something different this time. I see something different in the way and they've been doing it for six months now. Oh, my gosh, they never were able to do that again." And, so, at some point they're able to say, "I think there's hope here, I'm going to go with you."
Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yes, I think, there's not really a lose here because even if you're going by yourself, like you said, you're going to make some progress. Dr. Kim, this has been a really hope-filled and encouraging conversation. How would you give any final piece of advice for our listeners today?
Dr. Kim: I guess, a couple of things. One, with God in the middle of it there's always hope. And you may just have to lean on my faith right now, that God really does care and has a plan for it. But do that and just don't settle for a lifeless marriage.
Life is short, and you want to get the most out of every day and you married this person to do life with. You didn't marry this person just to exist with for however many years. So take a first step, whatever that is. If it's talking to your spouse. If it's saying, "Hey, let's go to counseling." It's going to counseling yourself and begin to work on yourself and then to work on your marriage together.
Lindsay: Yes, that's good. That's a good place to end with some hope and encouragement.
So we'll end our episode today with an anonymous question from one of our One Thing subscribers. This week's anonymous question is, "For couples who know they're going to be together, for a while, before they get married. How should they manage their sexual attraction to one another.
Some circumstances might be in the way of getting married. Maybe one of them studied abroad, or maybe they can't get married yet because of financial obstacles. But the sexual attraction is a normal thing and a beautiful thing, even, that God created and intended for couples to enjoy."
Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and it is difficult. I would worry about this couple if they weren't sexually attracted to each other because that's something you look forward to. But I do feel that God has a plan. I do feel that abstinence before marriage, whether you've already been sexually active or you're trying to stay pure till marriage, it's the best way. I think it honors God. I think it honors each other. I think it honors your future marriage.
Maybe this sounds a little hard, but I think if being obedient to God now and trusting Him, then, being abstinent till marriage is the best thing is going to help you be obedient to Him in marriage. And our culture says, "It's okay to have premarital sex. It's okay to live together."
And, so, I think, it's such more common, I mean, honestly, if Nancy and I had been in that category, done those, we would've been ostracized by our families. Back when we got married and we were dating, I mean, you don't live together before you get married. I mean, that's just like, I don't know, you just didn't even think about doing it. Plus, her dad would've killed me and that would've ruined a lot of things.
And, so, I think, what I would say is to talk to each other. To say, "Let's try this. Let's let God in on this. Let's come up with a plan." And by a plan, I mean, when couples, ask me, "Okay, we are getting married in six months. We have been sexual active or we haven't, or we're getting really tempted it's hard not to. What do you do?"
Well, I think, you have to have a plan. If you've been having sex in his apartment, then that apartment is off limits unless you're there with other friends or something like that. You've got to have a plan because if you don't you're going to fall back into the pattern.
And, I think, it is more difficult if you have been sexually active like that, because you've kind of become used to.
But, I think, what it does, it gives God a chance to redefine that and sex in a Christian marriage, I think is the best and healthiest sex. And, I think, giving God a chance to redefine that makes a huge difference. And, then, I think, you really need somebody to be accountable to. You need somebody that's going to ask you every week, "Hey, how are you guys doing with this?"
Just because, I don't know, there's something about accountability that makes a difference. So I would encourage them to, really, look into what would God really want you to do in this? And then how do you plan that out? How do you make that happen?
I've never had a couple that chose abstinence that regretted it. And I've had a number of couples that didn't go that route that got into marriage and wish they had. So your opportunity is now.
Lindsay: Mm, that's great advice. I love, too, that you highlighted you don't stop obeying just because you'll get married. You still have obedience to God on the table, so it's good practice.
Dr. Kim: Right, it's great practice. And, so, if you've got extra stuff, if you're not obedient now, are you going to be obedient marriage? And it's not like God doesn't want us to have fun, He has something so much better for us than we choose on our own. And, I think, if we can get that concept of it's okay to wait and see how God blesses that. Because it's not easy to do it in our culture when everyone else is telling you, "Okay, what do you mean you're not going to sleep together before you get married?"
"What do you mean you're not going to live together. You're going to save money by living together." You choose God or you choose the world, and what better time to start? That is when you're engaged.
Lindsay: Yes, that's great advice. So if you're listening and you have a question that you'd like to hear Dr. Kim answer on the podcast. Make sure that you're subscribed to the One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Email, and you could submit a question right through that email anonymously.
We'll have the link to sign up for that in the show notes, of course. And, in addition, we'll have the links to follow us at Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok and all the resources we have for you available in the show notes.
Thanks for taking the time to listen with us today and join us. We're so glad that you did have a great day and do something awesome for your marriage today.
[00:40:11] < Music >
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[00:41:41] < Outro >
Thanks for listening to The Awesome Marriage podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Ministry of Awesome Marriage and produced by Lindsay Few, with music by Noah Copeland.
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[00:42:17] < Outro >