Recovering After Porn In Marriage: A Husband's Story with Matt Cline | Ep. 564

[00:00:00] < Intro >

Lindsay: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast. A place for honest conversations and practical advice on how to build an awesome marriage. I am your podcast producer and co-host, Lindsay Few. On the show will be our host, Dr. Kim Kimberling. Dr. Kim is a marriage counselor and has been married for over 50 years. His passion is to help you strengthen your most intimate relationship.

Dr. Kim: Welcome to The Awesome Marriage Podcast, Matt. Thank you so much for joining us, today. So good to meet you and to have you on the podcast, and just thanks for saying yes.

Matt: Well, thank you, this is going to be fun.

Dr. Kim: It is going to be fun. So we're going to talk about porn, today. And, so, the first thing I want to talk to you about, we know that porn use is very prevalent. Singles, married, Christian, non-Christian, all that stuff, there doesn't seem to be barriers there. And, so, why is it like that.

Matt: God made sex to be so powerful, and it's powerful with the good and the bad. And, so, the sex drive that we have, there's a reason for it. There's a spiritual reason, a covenantal reason, for it that draws men and women together in marriage. But we're called to steward that, and we're called to have God be our first love. And, so, 1 Thessalonians 4, I love it, it talks about being sanctified and abstaining from sexual immorality. 

And, so, if God wants us to be sanctified or to seek Him above all, we've got to understand the power of our sex drive and how that can be in submission to God. And, so, it's meant to point us to God. But therefore, the sex drive is so powerful. And, so, when there's a lack of teaching and lack of understanding around how to steward our sex drive. I mean, we're going to find other outlets when we have these desires and these urges that we don't know how to steward. 

To take it in a different direction because of the power of sex, thieves don't counterfeit $5 bills. They counterfeit what has value; 50s, 100s, those are what they counterfeit. And, so, there's such a power to sex that the enemy has come and he's perverted this thing. And, so, there's so much perversion. 

When I got called to this ministry, I mean, my story was watching porn. But I didn't understand how many things people get involved with from same sex attraction to illegal stuff, child porn, bestiality, to prostitutes. The frequency of that in the church and in Christian circles is amazing. It's unbelievable. And, so, there are so many different perversions out there. And the reason is because there's so much power in sex, and the enemy wants it perverted because it will really wreck people's lives and wreck people's marriages.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I'm glad you talked about within the church, too, because it's a shame of what people don't usually talk about it. If a pastor said, "Everybody in the church that has struggled with alcohol, at some time." Probably a lot of hands would go up. 

If he goes, "Everybody that struggles with porn." I mean, it would just be like you could hear a pin drop in there. So we hide it a lot or don't bring it to light. One of the thing that I thought of when we talked about different singles and married. I remember a guy in our fraternity, in my junior year, I guess, he got married, he was graduating. And I remember him saying, "Well, I won't have to look at porn anymore because I'm going to be married." But I always wanted to follow up with him, I never did. But what's the difference in porn use singles and married?

Matt: Not much, sometimes it gets worse after marriage. And, so, there's this thing I heard someone say this last week, and I've heard it before but when you're single or when you're dating, there's a temptation to take your clothes off. There's a temptation like, "Hey, you should cross that line or get close to that line. 

When you're married, all of a sudden, because of the power of sex, we have this tempter, this enemy, in the spirit saying, "Hey, don't do that. Don't have sex. Be offended if your spouse doesn't want to have sex with you." Because often there's so much turmoil and tension with sex in marriage, and people have to communicate through problems and stuff like that. There's bitterness and resentment that comes up and, often, that's the thing that leads to even greater porn use. 

And, so, it's not that marriage will solve the problem. Oftentimes it makes it worse, honestly. And there are times, I talked to a guy yesterday that, yes, his fiancé was like, "I don't want this in our marriage." And, so, he just said, "Okay". 

And, so, he didn't bring that into his marriage, and that does happen, for sure. But marriage is not going to be a really good solution because what if there's marriage problems? What if you get bitter and you've trained yourself, as a single person, that every time you have these urges, you give into it.

And, so, we do need to have these conversations in church and from the pulpit, and in discipleship relationships. We've got to talk about sex in premarital counseling. We have to talk about sex, we have to talk about porn, masturbation, fantasies, these things. Like how are you going to handle it if it comes into your marriage? 

How are you going to handle it from both sides, the husband and the wife, if there's porn use? Because otherwise it's just going to stay in the dark, it's going to stay secret, and it shouldn't be a taboo thing. Everybody says, "Oh, that's good for you for doing that ministry, it's so taboo." And, I think, "But in the Bible, it's not taboo at all. Jesus talks about it, God talks about it, from Genesis to Revelation." And, so, we've got to talk about sex because marriage is not ultimately the answer. A healthy heart is the answer, and one submitted to God is the answer.

Dr. Kim: That's so good, it is. I love that you talked about just the enemy and the other things that we see, sexually, with all the stuff that's going on right now in our culture. Because I just thought of it in a different way when you said how powerful sex is, and it really is. No wonder he's using that as a tool to get to us because it's such a weak area for us. 

If we haven't made some intentional steps or done some things. And I loved it when you talked, too, about a guy, that you said that's engaged, getting ready to get married, and you got to deal with that porn problem before you get into marriage. Because, I think, for so many people, it is their go-to. Whether, sometimes, it's stress, or things aren't going good, or maybe it's just the sex part of it. But to know that I've got to deal with these things in a healthy way, a different way, and I can't bring that into marriage.

Matt: Well, you have to. I remember there was a friend of mine. He dated his, now, wife for four years, and I remember it was 15 years ago that they got married. But six months after his wedding I asked him, "Hey, did you ever tell her about porn?"

And he said, "No, I've never brought it up."

And, so, we lost touch, and maybe six or seven years later, I saw him. And he came to an event where I was speaking and he was broken, and he cried, and he hugged me. And he whispered in my ear after, and he said, "Look at what you're doing and here I am, I almost lost my marriage because of porn, and I started talking to other people." He still hasn't gotten help. 

Now, it's another seven, eight, years later, he almost lost his marriage, again. And it's so sad that he didn't deal with it. He didn't bring it to light when he was single or when he was dating. On the flip side, I was speaking to a university group here, just a couple of months ago. And all these kids, it was great, they're like 18 to 22. They're saying to me, "I've never had this conversation before.

Or, "I've never been able to ask these questions before." And, so, they loved it and they, actually, invited me back, a second time, to speak to their group in a different setting, in a Bible study. And they invited different friends, and it was really cool. But one of the guys, the first time that I spoke to them, he took me for a walk and he said, "I've just started dating this girl. I don't know how to talk to her about my sexual past, and porn, and different things."

And, so, we talked through that and I said, "One thing that you're going to learn is that you're going to learn, when you bring that up, is she a woman who has grace for you or is she a woman who's going to hold you to a high standard that is unreasonable or that is reasonable, and you to get there. You're going to learn about her insecurities, and how she deals with those, and how you can navigate those together. There's going to be so much good, whether their relationship lasts or not, there's going to be so much good that comes from talking about it."

And, so, when I saw him the second time at that Bible study, I asked him, "Hey, did you talk to her?"

And he said, "Man, our relationship has gotten so much better. It was everything that you said. We were able to talk about insecurities, how that affected her, what I want moving forward." And he was so grateful that he had that conversation and that they can grow together, in that area of potential conflict before the marriage.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. Because if you're hiding something or something you don't want to talk about before marriage like that, or even in marriage, it's going to limit your marriage. Because you're going to have that barrier. And if it was me in that situation, I would want Nancy to know. 

I would want to know that she can love me and care for me. Hold me to a high standard, sure, but give me grace in that, and that we can move forward in that. Because if I didn't, then all the time I'm married, I'm thinking, "What if she finds out?" And then not only did that happen, then, but then I've deceived her for X number of years. And, so, I love what you said there.

Matt: Yes, and as I'm sure you know, often, for a wife, it's not even primarily the porn use. But it's the lying and the hiding, that's often the bigger issue for a wife. And, so, it's like, "You've had this for ten years and you haven't told me. Why haven't you told me?" It really is an honoring thing to go and confess your worst stuff to your spouse or your potential spouse.

Dr. Kim: Yes, absolutely. It just clears the air, and it just gives you a freedom that you don't have if you're still carrying that burden on you, for sure. So how long did you keep this struggle with porn a secret? And what finally led you to take that step and confess?

Matt: So I actually dealt with my porn addiction about a year and a half before I got married. And, so, I didn't know my wife when I was still addicted to porn. But I'll tell you, it still affected our marriage. And so, I talked to her. I had a value when I was dating girls, I wouldn't date them for more than a month without telling them about porn. And, so, just a few girls that I dated before my wife, I did that. And even with Louise I told her as soon as I could, just about my history with porn. But, thankfully, I'd dealt with my addiction before getting married. 

When we got married, though, I started realizing I didn't understand the difference between just having sex and making love because making love you're dying to yourself. You're pursuing the other person. You're caring about their desires and their pleasure, both, physically and emotionally and spiritually, in that connection. That wasn't what I was doing. I had been trained for 15 years watching porn, that when I wanted I should just get it. 

And, so, I didn't value her, and I started realizing the selfishness and the beliefs that I had in sex, that I carried into my marriage. A lot of them came from porn, and just from acting selfishly, and acting impulsively on my urges. And, so, those beliefs I've had to work through a lot in marriage. 

And, so, even if porn is not in your marriage. You’ve still got to look at what do you believe about sex and what has been perverted in your mind, in your pursuit of sex because I didn't know for years. I didn't know how to value her in that part of our relationship, and put her first.

Dr. Kim: Yes, because culture is not going to teach us that. It's going to teach us just the opposite, and it's easy to buy into that because, well, that's what everybody else does, or that's how everybody else looks at it. And it is so different when you look at it as the gift that God gave us, it changes everything. 

It's like, "Okay, how do I accept this gift? How do I open this gift? How do I get what God wants me out of it?" And the world's not going to teach us that at all.

Matt: Yes, and that's such a sad thing is that it is a gift. But we don't know how to go about it because sex is not pornography. Making love and porn, they're two vastly different things, it's not even close. And, like I said, making love, you're putting your desires totally last. You're pursuing your spouse in every way. 

Biblically speaking, we're never supposed to pursue sexual outlets for ourselves with selfish intent, and it's only to drive us together. To push us towards our spouse, and we don't understand that when we've grown up in porn. Porn is just so self-centered, and it's all about just using people. 

And, so, when I realized this, and this is important for people that have dealt with porn in the past or are trying to deal with porn. So much focus is on the porn. But there's after that, what have you brought into your marriage that isn't Godly, that's getting in the way of that gift? Because another narrative that's harmful is that, "Hey, just save sex for marriage." And then there's the honeymoon phase, and the honeymoon phase it's just all fireworks. Well, what if it isn't? 

Because oftentimes people don't know what they're doing, and oftentimes there's a lot of pain for a wife. And, so, what if it isn't? We've got to have these real conversations for these expectations to be real. My wife and I were both virgins, when we got married, and we were really thankful for that. 

But then we did have a lot of problems, and we didn't feel like we had people that we could go and talk to. And, so, it caused a lot of tension and a lot of problems that spilled into other areas of our marriage. And if we don't understand that it's a gift from God, like you're saying. But a gift doesn't mean you're just going to wait till marriage and, all of a sudden, it's going to be amazing. 

The gift is that you've honored God and that you can work through it together. And we just think the problems that we had with sex, if we had in our minds, past experiences with other people, it would have been so much harder to work through these problems that we had. 

And, so, there's a real gift in saving yourself or in doing things God's way. But the gift isn't, necessarily, that it's just going to be fireworks right off the bat and forever.

Dr. Kim: I'm glad you said that. Our honeymoon, Nancy, we were in Mexico and she got very sick because of stuff she ate. So half our honeymoon, I was sitting there taking care of her and things like that. I hear stories like that all the time. Things like this happen, and it is. And what I've seen in our marriage, it's something that grows over the years. 

We did an interview yesterday, and Nancy was just saying the closeness that she feels with me now in sex and how that has grown, over the time, and it's something that you just want to cultivate. It's not just this two bodies coming together. There's so much more in that, that really bonds you in so many areas. And one thing I tell guys that are struggling sometime and I say, "If you take that energy and put it into your sex life and your marriage, and really learn what God wants you to do in there, and how to serve your spouse." 

You alluded to it just a minute ago, when you said something, Matt, is that that stuff in porn and that stuff gets so far back in the distance and becomes so dark because you're in the light of God's plan for sex. That, to me, it's like, "I don't want to go there again, that would taint what I have now." Does that make sense?

Matt: Yes, that's right. And I love what you said, that she's feeling close to you now, and I would assume you're feeling close to her, too.

Dr. Kim: Oh, yes.

Matt: Because pornography is like the people that people look up, in porn, they, typically, have these fake bodies or these perfect bodies, and that's not realistic. The best marriage, according to a lot of studies, or the best sex, I mean, according to a lot of studies, is after 22, 25 years of marriage.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Matt: Because you spend that time figuring it out.

Dr. Kim: Yes, and you don't look the same 25 years later that you did on your wedding day. We all change. I heard some guy say, one time, "You look your best on your wedding day and it's all downhill from there." It's not totally like that, but you also, because of that, your love deepens. I'm as attracted to her now as I ever was and think she's as beautiful. As you grow that, God does amazing things with it, for sure.

Matt: That's awesome,

[00:16:59] < Music >

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[00:18:05] <Music >

Dr. Kim: One thing I wanted to ask you, what about these guys. I have so many guys say, "Yes, I'm not looking at it, but I still got these images I can't get out of my mind." What would you say to them?

Matt: Yes, I mean, that's a real thing. Especially the first two things I ever saw with porn, I was eleven and my buddy showed them to me, I can remember those for sure. It's not something I go to in fantasy but if I think about it, I can remember them. And I was really sad one time, this is just about a year ago, thinking about just all the hours and the years that I spent watching porn. And I was eleven, I didn't know what it was. 

I had never been told what porn was, and my buddy just showed it to me and I got hooked. And just, recently, a year ago, I was just feeling really sad about all of those years that were lost. Not, totally, but just the perversion that was in my life. 

And, so, I was praying because God can redeem everything. And one thing that we do a lot with the guys that we work with, is we work through these memories and these thoughts that we have. And I like to say we have to have God's grace cover everything. Where is God in that moment? Where is God when you're engaging in these thoughts or when you were first exposed to certain things? 

And, so, I was praying and I just said to God, "I'm really sad about what happened, when I was first exposed." And I just felt that He put on my heart, "If you weren't first exposed by this guy, you wouldn't now have it on your heart to pray for him. I want you to pray for his salvation."

And I went, "Oh, this is really cool." And, so, one thing that we've got to understand is that when there's triggers, we're all scared of, "Oh, I don't want to get triggered." But God can change that. He can redeem those moments. And, so, when that first time or those pictures come to mind, God has started to help me get to the point where, "Oh, yes, that's a trigger to pray for this guy who first showed me."

And, so, if we can have God's grace come in and God's perspective come into those situations, it's really a cool thing. One thing with these images that you're talking about or seeing people lustfully, is that there's a concept out there that I talk a lot about that people recommend bouncing your eyes. 

If you see something lustful or see someone attractive, just bounce your eyes, just look away. And there's a value to that in that we don't want to, obviously, linger on something that would cause us to lust. 

But, again, what does God say about that person that's causing you to lust? If you've got images in your mind, can you bring those to prayer? And can you pray for those people in those images? Or if you're seeing someone on the street, can you go, "Hey God, what do you think about that person? I want to pray for them in alignment with what you feel for them. Give me a heart for that person." 

And, so, you can invite God into those memories or those fantasies that you struggle with, and He can slowly or quickly just start to change the way that you see that. And it starts to lose the strength that it has over you, when you invite God into those moments. The temptation that a lot of us have because these things annoy us, and it's annoying when we have these images in our mind. 

The temptation is that we just want to avoid it and don't think about it. And there's something in there where, yes, we don't want to linger on that. But instead of just avoiding it, why don't you welcome God into that moment with you, and He can start to change the way that you respond to those triggers.

Dr. Kim: I love that. It's like what Paul talks about, renewing your mind. You're just reframing that whole thing and putting God in it. When most of the time with porn and those lustful thoughts, we're pushing God away. It's like, "Don't bother me right now." Instead of inviting Him into it and letting Him. I think that's great. And I agree, bouncing your eyes helps. You don't want to just sit there and ogle after somebody. 

But I love the fact that you bring it to prayer because I've done that, in the past, with people that I have a problem with, that I don't really like. And, so, I'll just say, "God, help me to see this person through your eyes." And it's not that they became best friends, but it totally changed my perspective and how I looked at them. 

Matt: Yes, it really does help.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it's giving God a chance to come in, inviting Him in, to do some work within you. And, to me, He always shows up when you give Him that. So you better be ready because He's going to come in.

Matt: That's awesome. Well, this is actually a biblical thing and I'll just say this because it'll give people context, and I think it'll give people confidence. When those situations come, those images, or the people on the street that you're lusting after or whatever. There's a contradiction, it's not really, but it appears to be a contradiction in the Scripture where Jesus, He's in the Lord's Prayer, He's teaching, "Lead us not into temptation." 

But what happens when Jesus is baptized and the Spirit leads Him to the wilderness to be tempted, and I'm going "Wait a second." The Spirit leads Him to the wilderness to be tempted. "But lead us not into temptation?" I struggled with that for a few years until I started to learn this stuff and learn God's redeeming ways. The key is not that the Spirit led Him to be tempted because it says that the Spirit led Him to the wilderness to be tempted. 

The wilderness was the very place where God's people were stuck for 40 years. And God was going, "I have a promised land for you. You're going through this wilderness but don't grumble there, don't complain, don't act in fear. Listen to me, just let me guide you in the wilderness and it's going to lead you to the Promised Land."

But they didn't do that, they were stuck for 40 years. And a lot of us have been stuck for years and years in sexual sin. And, so, every time a temptation comes we're fearful of it, or we just fall into sin. But Jesus comes and He redeems everything. Jesus doesn't just redeem mankind; He redeems all of the details. 

And, so, He gets baptized, and He goes right to the very place, the wilderness, where God's people were stuck, and He lives in victory for 40 days over the enemy, tempting Him. Becoming one, even more so, with His Father going in in the fullness of the Spirit, coming out with the power of the Spirit. And, so, there's a real value in Jesus going into the wilderness. 

And, so, this is how we can start to reframe and renew guys’ minds when these images are in their mind, or they get tempted. This is not something to be fearful of. This is an opportunity where God is saying, "Hey, you've got authority, you've got victory. I'm going to redeem this very thing." And the cool thing is that we don't then need to be fearful of being tempted anymore because even Jesus was tempted. 

It's not a sin to be tempted. The tempter is going to come; he's going to attack. But we don't need to be fearful of that, when we realize that God is redeeming the very thing that used to get us stuck.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. That last three or four minutes you just talked there, we need to clip that, that was such a perfect picture. I love that.

Matt: Awesome.

Dr. Kim: It's really good. So enter marriage, how did porn affect you and what changed for you once in the marriage?

Matt: Well, I think what changed, for me, was just realizing how many things I didn't understand about sex and that I had learned from porn. One thing that porn teaches is that this idea of no-strings-attached sex, that's in the world, and I never engaged in sex before my marriage. But just this idea that it's physical, that the effects of sex is not that far reaching. 

I remember even this narrative in my church circles, and I've heard other people have that same narrative, is that for women, sex is emotional but for men sex is physical. And I got married and I started thinking, "This is weird because I really like the emotional connection part of it."

And my wife would say, "I really like the physical part." 

And I would lie there at night and just go, "This is not what I was told." And, so, understanding the fullness of what sex, healthy, Godly sex is in marriage, and how that's different from the messages in porn. That really is what started to help me in my marriage, pursue my wife differently, and I'm still growing in that. But just start to highlight those times where I'm like, "Wait a second, I probably am coming across like I want to use her right now."

Or she would feel like, "I just feel like you're just using me and you're not caring about what I want right now."

And I'm like, "Oh, yes, everything is sexual touch right now, and she just wants non-sexual touch."

I'm like "Oh, yes."

And, so, I got to die to myself. I got to learn these beliefs that have been wrong and just get those rectified in my marriage. That's been the biggest journey for me.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it is, and I think that's a lot of God's wisdom in making us different, if we were exactly alike. It'd be boring, probably, for one thing, and we learn from each other. And I love the way you said that and the cool thing is, you heard what she was saying and she heard what you were saying, and then you began to let God redefine it. 

Because I don't think you can grow up in this culture and have a complete, healthy view of sex. Without being very intentional about it, and inviting God in the picture, and getting rid of all those things. And then to be able to do that in marriage with someone you've committed, made a covenant with, and that's where you realize, "Oh, my gosh, this is really something special. 

This is something that I would never have had if I didn't know what God had for me in this." It's so good, I love that.

Matt: Yes, totally, one other way that's just coming to mind, to answer your question. One other way that I was affected is that even with intercourse, and I don't know how many people experience this. But even with intercourse, the first I don't know how many times or months or I don't know how long it lasted, but I felt guilty when I would finish. And it's because for thousands of times, every time I would ever finish or have an orgasm, it was always laced with guilt. 

And, so, I started feeling guilty about things in marriage that were actually gifts from God. And when I just see even different things with foreplay that are just perverted, in pornography, in my mind, I'm like, "Well, is this dirty or is it not?" And I've had people, a lot of people, over the years, ask me those questions, "Is this okay?"

"Is this Godly?" Because there's so much perversion of Godly things in marriage. And, so, we need to realize, what do we feel guilty about or feel shameful about, and we need to actually have those conversations. My wife and I love that reel you guys put up where Nancy pulls you down on the couch and it's so funny. But just encouraging people to have those conversations about sex. Because a lot of times there's shame, there's guilt, that we don't even realize that we're carrying, that have come from porn. So those messages are important to talk about.

Dr. Kim: Absolutely, and on the other side of it, Nancy experienced the same thing kind of you did because of being pure till marriage. And part of that was feeling, "Well, sex is bad. How do I keep myself pure? Well, if sex is bad, it's dirty." And then, all of a sudden, you get married and we went through the same thing, on her side, of the guilt that came with it, that she had to work through. 

So it can be both male and female, maybe, some differences, probably, in it, but it can come on both sides. And it is, it's getting past all this other stuff to see what God really has for you in your marriage. Yes, that's really good.

Matt: Yes, I've heard that, too, for sure. "Sex is bad, don't do it." And, then, all of a sudden, "Hey, just go hard; it's the honeymoon phase." And I was like, "Whoa, [Inaudible 00:29:45]."

Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly, and it's like, "But why are you upset? That was great." All that kind of stuff that goes on. So I know a lot of people will relate to you talking about quitting porn more than once. Because some people I know have tried a lot of times, and I've worked with some guys. And it's just like, "Oh, I feel so bad. I did good for a long time and then fall." So how do you get past that? What was different for you the next time?

Matt: Well, the first time that I quit porn, I was 2. And I was watching porn and I just thought, "If I want to be done by the time I'm married, which I do, there's got to be a last time." 

And, so, let's not date a girl until I've been porn free for a year. So I just closed the computer, and I was almost never tempted for six or eight months, I never thought about it. I quit cold turkey. But what I didn't do, ever, was learn about the condition of my heart. Learn about these lies that I was believing, like I'm talking about. Learn about just who I am in Christ and the power that I have with the Holy Spirit in me. I never had this passionate pursuit of God. 

And, so, I got the glory for quitting porn, but I didn't guard my heart. And it says in Scripture that the enemy will flee from you if you resist, if you submit to God and resist temptation. But he'll wait for an opportune time to come back. 

And, so, a couple of years later, I just got an iPhone, and somebody at my work said something about a porn site that he saw. And I was like, "Oh, that's..." It was some weird porn site, I wasn't into it, whatever it was, I forget. But that night I just thought, "I'm curious why he liked that. I'm not going to like it; why did he like it?" 

And, so, I ended up going to this porn site, and it led me back to my old porn sites, and I was stuck for two and a half years. It was worse than ever and just confused going, "God, I was free for two and a half years. What's going on here?" No matter what I tried, I couldn't stop. 

And, so, I kept praying, and these two prayers were significant for me. I would pray and I'd say, "God, I want to be used by you. I want to impact people all over the world." And I would also pray and say, "Give me something that's like an anchor that's strong enough to hold on to to get free of this thing." 

And one day I was in a church service, and I felt God just whisper to me and He said, "Matt, I want to use you, but you've got to get pure." And I went, "Oh, that's the answer to both of those prayers." Not only do I want to be used around the world, but also I wanted an anchor to hold on to. 

And, so, it was shortly after that that He called me into this ministry. But I started getting tempted right away and I thought, "Am I not free? I thought it was free. Why am I getting tempted?" But I didn't understand what we're talking about is that temptation is not sin.

Temptation doesn't mean that you're now bound. It's that temptation is an opportunity to worship God. And, so, what I started doing was I started reading Scripture more. I started learning thankfulness in all circumstances and how to praise God in those times of temptation. 

And, so, when my focus was intimacy in Christ, and having God heal my heart, and having God renew my mind, that leads to transformation. Instead of just I made a good decision to close the computer and not date a girl for a year. When my pursuit of God took over and got the glory in my life, that's what changed me, ultimately, forever. 

And, now, I still have to guard my heart, and that's something that I think is important for people to understand is that no matter what, you've got to daily die to yourself. 

You've got to daily guard your heart. You've always got to be aware of where you're at. Have people in your life that you can talk to because, otherwise, it could be 20 years and you could fall. But if you're growing in Christ, pursuing Him and guarding your heart, your chances are pretty good that you're going to be able to have lifelong freedom.

Dr. Kim: Oh, that's so good. Yes, because in that first eight months, it really was just behavior modification, wasn't it? Just stay away from it and, I think, you've got to let God change your heart, that makes all the difference in the world. 

And, I think, too, I tell people all the time whether it's temptation for any kind of sexual sin. We're all vulnerable and we all have to put our guard up every single day. Don't you think? Because I think when you feel like you're not vulnerable, you're really vulnerable because, then, the enemy is going to go, "Ha, ha, I can get you."

Matt: That's right. I read someone, they wrote, "If you don't think you need therapy, you really need therapy."

Dr. Kim: Yes, exactly.

Matt: If you think that you're good, you're probably not good.

Dr. Kim: Exactly.

Matt: It's this humility of heart that leads us to realize we really need the strength of God because we are weak. But it's in our weakness where His strength is made perfect, and that's not just a Scripture, a cliche. It really is real when we choose humility and choose to guard our heart every day.

Dr. Kim: Well, and I think when you let God in, and invite Him in, and you experience that He really does care about you, and He cares about your porn use. Things that a lot of people think, "Well, He doesn't care about that in my life." And I think it grows you closer to Him. And, then, we allow Him to help us with whatever we're dealing with. And, then, with you to use you in a ministry that He knew a long time ago that He was going to use you in, which is pretty cool.

Matt: Yes, exactly, it's amazing. And one thing that has been key in that is realizing that when the Lord said to me that "I want to use you but you got to get pure." He wasn't just talking about purity from pornography, which is what I thought initially. He was talking about the purity in my heart. "Blessed are the pure at heart, for they shall see God." 

Like it says, purity in my heart. That when we modify a behavior, you can still have a very impure heart that's going to do a lot of damage, if you get a platform or if you enter into marriage. And, so, it's this purity of heart that's that's really got to be the pursuit, not just the quitting of the behavior.

Dr. Kim: Yes, I agree. Which leads into the next thing I want to talk about. Just how does porn use change the user's mind and his relationships?

Matt: Well, from a brain development standpoint, it changes the neurological responses to almost everything in our life. There are parts of our brain that don't develop properly. That are supposed to develop and lead us to be motivated in life, or experience joy in life, or feel connection in life. And, so, neurologically, it does a really big number on somebody's brain. 

And even from an emotional standpoint, when you get stressed in life or you feel rejected in life, and you constantly just go to pornography or masturbation to numb yourself. You're never emotionally growing and spiritually maturing to be able to handle things. And it says in Jeremiah 17, it says, "Those who trust the Lord never cease to bear fruit in times of drought."

But when we're in a time of drought and we have pornography as an outlet, we don't feel good in our life. We feel lonely, we feel financially stressed, we feel whatever it is. We just numb ourselves and we go to pornography. We never grow in our emotional and spiritual maturity. 

And, so, it's like you were saying a couple of minutes ago, when you invite God into these things and you have Him help you grow in handling life scenarios, and not just escape into numbing yourself. The overflow is amazing because you invite Him into those things, but then His relationship with you will touch every part of your life. 

And, so, the damage of porn is really real from a scientific standpoint, to an emotional standpoint. Relationally, you're not going to just look to use people. You're going to really value other people and die to yourself, put them first, if you're not engaging in porn. And, then, spiritually, there's a real factor, spiritually speaking. When we look at darkness our body is filled with darkness. 

There's an open door, spiritually, that we don't want to deal with. People need deliverance, sometimes, from the spirit of lust because of the open doors that porn has caused and that's not everything. People can get delivered of things all the time If the renewal of the mind doesn't happen, it just gets worse. And, so, the renewal of the mind is what leads to transformation. 

But on every plane, there's an impact of porn, even economically. There's a book called Sex and Culture. It's a secular book, but the author studied, I think it's 60 or 80 societies over 5000 years. And every single time that there was, in his words, a more liberal view towards monogamy, in other words, there were more sexual outlets, this society crashed economically. 

And, so, that happens even in our own lives, because if we're not doing well, sexually, we're not motivated. We're taking so much time, just numbing ourselves out. It impacts so much of our lives.

Dr. Kim: Yes, it just can spread over all of it and I've seen that. And I know you've seen that a lot, and it's so destructive. And I don't think, sometimes, we see the ripple effect or think about the ripple effect. Maybe we see it, it affects so much or so many other people. I just think of a dad; how it affects his kids? How does he talk to his son about things when he's doing something that he doesn't want his son to do or things like that?

Matt: That's right. Or a pastor I talked to a couple of weeks ago, I said, "Did you ever preach on porn sex?"

And he's like, "No. Once, I preached on temptation, but I sure didn't feel qualified." Because he was watching porn. And, so, his whole church, they're not getting a message of healthy, Godly sexuality. It's really sad. There was one guy that we worked with, this was, I think, three years ago, now, and he had not told anybody about what he was doing sexually. And he works in a professional setting where he's one-on-one with clients a lot. 

And, so, we had him share all of his story with somebody. And, so, he was very resistant to do it. But finally, he did, and he shared that he had spent $250,000, well, this is Canadian dollars. So, like 10 bucks American, but so 250 grand in two years, and he's in his 20s, on his sex addiction. 

Dr. Kim: Oh, my gosh.

Matt: He was leading worship, beautiful singing voice. His family, they love the Lord and really sad. So when he confessed, he told me three days later, he had had this rotator cuff injury, where he couldn't lift his arm past his shoulder for eight months without just excruciating pain. 

The moment he confessed, that injury was totally healed and never came back. And I've checked up with him over the last couple of years, and he's like, "No, it never came back." And, also, he said the day after, he's like, "I can laugh and cry from my innermost being, for the first time in years."   

He felt a freedom in his soul. And then what happened, moving forward in his work, he started praying for people in his one-on-one meetings. And he said, "I've always wanted to pray for people and I never felt like I could." But once he got his stuff out, all of a sudden, he started praying for people, and it's because he didn't have a story of shame that he was keeping a secret. He had a story of grace on his worst thing, and now he could extend the grace of God to other people. And, so, the ripple effect that you're talking about is really real.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Matt: Even if we think, "Oh, porn is not affecting anybody." Who are you not affecting, positively, because of your porn use? The ripple effect is real.

Dr. Kim: The power of confession is amazing, and that the truth will set you free and it does. It's just taking that step to do that and how powerful that is, that's such a great story of just the transformation on that guy. That's awesome. We've talked a lot about the things that are different in your life since porn. But just for you, personally, outside of marriage, and ministry, and everything. How are you different without porn?

Matt: Oh, man, I remember there was a time that first go around when I quit porn, the first time. I would go to church, and there was a time where I was a young adult, I was looking for somebody to marry, nobody was attractive to me. No girl was attractive. And I would think, "Where is this one girl in the world that's going to look like all these beautiful girls I've seen?" And she wasn't there because it's all just fake.

Dr. Kim: Yes.

Matt: And, so, nobody was attractive. But then a weird thing happened, as my brain was being rewired, I started seeing beauty in pretty much everybody. And even people who, naturally, I wouldn't see are as attractive, I would start to see, like, "Oh, they got a nice smile, or nice eyes."

And, so, it's kind of come back to, I would say, what's normal now. Where I think my wife, I really do in my heart, think she's the most beautiful girl in the world, and that's a really healthy thing. But I don't compare. There are different people that we've worked with, different guys, they're always comparing their wife's body, and some even tell their wife. One story, a guy on his honeymoon, sorry, on his wedding night, told his wife something about, "Oh, I don't like this about your body, oh, my goodness."

And, so, I don't have these thoughts comparing her to somebody that I watched last night. And, so, it's just so nice that I can just live free, even relationship with God, it's just I can approach Him, and we always can approach Him confidently. But when we have that sin and shame, we put that barrier up and we feel like we can't. 

And, so, yes, just not having those barriers is just really transformative. And my wife grabbed my phone yesterday, and she often does, but I just thought, "Man, it's nice, I don't have to worry about what she is going to find. I'm not deleting my history, it's just nice."

Dr. Kim: Yes, that honeymoon story is just oh, my gosh. Especially, I think that guys don't understand, a lot of times, maybe, that early in marriage of how something like that affects a woman. Because they're compared all the time or compare themselves all the time. And, so, they need our love, and affirmation, and all those good things. Man, I can't imagine-

Matt: And they didn't talk about it for years and finally it came out. But she carried the pain for years from that.

Dr. Kim: I'm sure, it changed her on the honeymoon a little bit, too. She may not have shown it, but that hurts deep for a woman like that. 

Matt: That's right.

Dr. Kim: So somebody that's using porn, they slip back. What do they do? What do you do when you slip back? Obviously, you went through that part of it. What would you tell somebody?

Matt: Well, shortly after I slipped back, I went and I talked to the one guy that I viewed as a mentor in my life. And he said, "Hey, I can relate. It's been almost a year since I've been free of porn. If you ever need to talk, just come talk to me." And it's okay, I don't blame the guy, it just was pretty weak accountability because he never followed up with me at all.

But I'm not a victim. I have choice and responsibility, and I never followed up with him, and that's the main thing. What should you do when you slip back? Is be urgent with this thing. Deal with it right away, you got to bring it to light. And I always think, reflect and pray about what are the things that you didn't have guards up in your life? What were those open doors? 

What were the lies that you believe or the justifications that you had for going to pornography again? Because when you can understand even what triggered you and what justifications that you had in your mind, like, "Oh, this probably won't hurt."

Or "I've done it before. I'll do it once, but I'm not addicted anymore. I'll just quit tomorrow." Those kinds of justifications, if you can bring those things to light, too, with people. You're not just, then, talking about, "Hey, I watch porn.

"But you're going, "Hey, these are all the lies that I believed." And you're bringing all of that to light, there's a lot of power in that. But one thing, too, is that if you're battling a lot of, maybe, bitterness, or unforgiveness, or resentment, towards things in life. That's going to lead you down that path. 

And, so, you got to be aware of what's the condition of your heart. What's affecting you in life, what's your stress load, and how are you handling that. And if you can be aware of that and start to work through that. That's where I talk about the health of the heart. That's where that can grow more because you're more aware rather than just letting things pile up, not deal with it, and, then, eventually, your body or your mind is just screaming for an escape. And, so, you go back to porn.

Dr. Kim: Sure.

Matt: So if you can be more aware of the things that are leading you to porn and bring those to light, too, along with your sin, I think that's really important.

Dr. Kim: Yes, that's so good, again, bring it into the light and, maybe, you want to mention some of the things. I think putting all the safeguards in place that you can on phones and everything like that, having somebody to be accountable to. But I think if your heart doesn't change, there's always a loophole. I mean, you can always work around, or find something new, or something like that. So those things are-

Matt: There's always a way around it. There are outlets with real people. There's always a way around it. There's fantasy in your mind that Jesus talks about, it's adultery. It's not just adultery against the person you're married to, it's adultery against God because you're in a covenant with Him. He wants to be the object of your affection. And, so, that's the fuller thing, and what Jesus is talking about, where there's a thought in your mind that He's like, "I want to be the one that satisfies you."

And, so, there's that fantasy and the masturbation that you could do that anytime, even if you do have the blockers with porn. But it is important, and we do encourage people. We recommend, primarily, two software. We recommend Covenant Eyes, and then there's one called Truple. Truple is t-r-u-p-l-e.io and a lot of our guys really like that one. But there are other software out there. And then router limits is a really good thing for a Wi-Fi network, for a home network. 

You could put router limits on, and there are different ones, again. But that's one that we recommend just for protecting your home, protecting your Wi-Fi network, and your devices. And, so, those are a good first step but it's not the last step, but it is the first step. And, so, do it because it's important, but, then, it leads to the transformation.

Dr. Kim: Yes, because a lot of people just having that stop is a good constraint for them, just to not, "Okay, now I got to work harder to get there." Because a lot of it is impulsive, I think, and if that moment passes and you're able to redirect and pray, invite God in, then you can walk away from it.

Matt: Exactly.

Dr. Kim: So making that accessibility more difficult, for sure.

Matt: That's right.

Dr. Kim: So what would you say to the man or woman that's feeling lost right now, and not really sure of the next steps in their marriage because of porn?

Matt: Yes, that's a tough one. I mean, 20 years ago people would say, "We don't know where to go. Who can I go to for help?" And, so, so many couples, and it still happens, but it's more by choice now. So many couples 20 years ago and more, they were like, "We literally have nowhere to go. No one knows how to help us." But now there are a lot of ministries out there. Our ministry is just one of them, but there's a lot. 

And, so, you can reach out to ministries to get help together. What we do with our people is we recommend a man gets help and a woman gets help, but separately. And, so, for us, we have a female coach who works with the wives. But there's a full-on betrayal trauma ministry, get help. 

It's not dishonoring to go and talk about your story. I've heard some wives, not all, but I've heard some wives say, "I don't want to dishonor my husband." Especially, when the husband is a pastor and has a public ministry. "I don't want to dishonor my husband by talking about it." And, so, I've not gotten help but you got to reach out. You got to get help from people because when you're stuck, you're basically like two people tied down to a hospital bed waiting for surgery, but you're not calling on a doctor or surgeon to come and help you. You need help. 

And, so, obviously, Jesus is the one to help, primarily. But I always say He doesn't tell us everything about us, and the reason is because He tells other people things for us. He wants us to be in community with other people, and then there's safety. Scripture says "Safety in having a multitude of counselors."

And, so, if you want safety in your marriage, your marriage can be better than ever when you get through this. But you've got to reach out and you've got to get mentorship from people who can help you.

Dr. Kim: I agree. And to know that the people you reach out to that are trained, people like Restored Ministries, it's confidential. It's not like you have a Facebook page where you're posting, "Here's who we're helping today." It's very private. It's very confidential. And I know it's a big step for a lot of people. I know taking that step is huge for different people. But have you ever had anybody regret taking that step?

Matt: Not that I've heard, no. I mean, what I have had and I'm sure what you've had, is so many tears where people finally can let it all out, and then they get affirmed. And when they get affirmed by somebody, the tears just flow. And it's the same if you go see a therapist, go see a counselor, go see Dr. Kim. You've talked to husbands, you've talked to wives, everything is confidential. And what about you? Do you place a judgment on people? Do you think negatively of people when they're coming and reaching out for help?

Dr. Kim: No. And, sometimes, I have to reaffirm that with people. Maybe somebody's been in six sessions, and they say, "I haven't told you this, yet, because I didn't think you'd like me."

Or "I didn't think you'd keep seeing me." And when they say that, whatever it is, and they see that I still give them grace, and love them, and want to help them through it. We just have these fears that build up inside of us, of what can happen, and they're all negative. And the truth is, if you reach out, the person's going to help you. The person's going to be there for you. He's going to affirm just that step of confession it's so huge-

Matt: And, so, respectable. I have so much respect for people when they come forward and share their worst stuff, it's an incredible thing.

Dr. Kim: It is. It's a very humbling thing to do what we do in so many ways. That God would use us to hear people's stories like that and to point them to Him, it's incredible.

Matt: It is incredible.

Dr. Kim: So I know we've got people listening. Some are into porn; some have a spouse that's into porn. What would be your hope for those who hear the podcast, today, moving forward for them?

Matt: Well, I would really hope that you have that hope. That you keep the hope, when there's so much pain, so much turmoil. But I've heard it so many times where marriages, the husband and wife that sticks it out, they work through it together. They're like, "We thought we had a good marriage before but there were secrets. Our marriage is so much better now than it was before."

And, for me, it's amazing, sometimes, I just reflect, I'm like, "I haven't had one sexual temptation, or thought, or fantasy, or anything in how long." And I think that's amazing that I can get there. When it used to be that I would watch for a whole weekend. I wouldn't see any friends; I wouldn't contact anybody. 

I'd pull over in my car and get my phone out, and that used to be what I do. And now it's like, "I could go, how long and not think about it." And it's incredible. And that's not because I'm special, it's because God is very special and He can do for anybody what He's done for me. And countless other people who have also gotten free of this. And, so, keep the hope and keep that belief, and that's why you do need people around you to pour that belief in you, sometimes, when you have those doubts.

Dr. Kim: Yes, because porn isn't going away, we know that. There's too much money in it. People are going to keep throwing it. The enemy is going to continue to try to wreck marriages and lives with it. But there's always hope with God's help because He's stronger.

Matt: Always hope. We've got this community, it's Pure Freedom Community, and it's a free place for guys to join. Guys over 18, and they come in, and the amount of guys that they just say, "Thank you for this. Thank you for this place."

Or, "This is a place where I can actually have these conversations in a safe environment, with other guys, and this iron sharpens iron." And we do live teachings, we do challenges, we do offer places for them to connect with each other. It's just really cool. But it's a place where they can, no matter if they're hooked on porn or not, we're pursuing sexual health and integrity. And, so, it's a place where guys just they can confess and feel loved and it's amazing. 

And, so, I love seeing that freedom for people, where they come and they're like, "I've never had these conversations before. I didn't know it happened." But it does happen. And, so, if people are listening and they feel stuck, there are a lot of places where you can reach out for help.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. Matt, this has been a great conversation. I love what you're doing. If people want to find out more about you or contact you at restoredministries.ca, is that right?

Matt: You got it.

Dr. Kim: The Canada.

Matt: Yes, Canadian website but there's people all over the world. So restoredministries.ca, help for men, for women, who are addicted, for the betrayed spouse. And there are all kinds, it's not just porn addiction and we deal primarily with porn addiction. But there's a lot of people dealing with sexual abuse and we help them through that sexual abuse recovery. And any kind of sexual brokenness, you feel free to reach out and we'll find a way to help you.

Dr. Kim: That's so good. Well, thank you very much and hope to see you again soon.

Matt: Thank you, Dr. Kim, this has been awesome.

[00:56:50] < Outro > 

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